I wonder what old Lorraine is up to these days...
I've wondered that myself - I've even tried pretty extensive google searches using her name but got nothing.
AT NO TIME SHOULD YOU...
...FINISH A POST WITH THE PHRASE "READ IT FAST, BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE HERE LONG."
This thread is on its last leg, folks.
No disrespect meant, and I understand context is everything, but I found this hilariously ironic.
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OTOH, I did find a first printing of Dark:Reflections and I have Land of 8 Million Dreams for Changling :-)
Changeling is pretty much the only WW thing I didn't buy, back in that period (although they later released a bunch of stuff that didn't appeal to me, like Hunter: the Vigil, Demon: the Fallen and Exalted).
Knockers sounded pretty darn awesome, 'though, and I almost got sucked in just for the idea of strange little machine-making fey.
So you didn't answer my question, poodle.
What if the printer-makers decided to discontinue all production of ink cartridges for ALL but the newest model, including those a year old?
But as always, you chose to answer another question, that I never put. It always surprises me that reading is so difficult.
When I buy a printer, I do so PROVIDED I can count on being able to get ink cartridges for quite some time. If not, I don't buy it. With me so far, poodle?
I was loyal to WotC. I bought every single 3.5 book, not kidding. I, like everyone else, bought the 4th edition books out of curiosity.
I played 4th edition, and I understood that it was a game that didn't really hold much interest, due to being so utterly non-fluff. When everything is completely generic, including the points of light setting, you might as well use a blank A4 paper for a world map.
So I don't buy 4th edition anymore. They lost me. Oh, and now Athas is the next setting they'll points of light... *shudder*
What if the printer-makers decided to discontinue all production of ink cartridges for ALL but the newest model, including those a year old?
I buy generic ink cartridges or take my used ones to one of the many places that refill them.
When I buy a printer, I do so PROVIDED I can count on being able to get ink cartridges for quite some time. If not, I don't buy it.
So, when you do not trust a manufacturer, you do not buy their product? Am I understanding you correctly?
I was loyal to WotC. I bought every single 3.5 book, not kidding. I, like everyone else, bought the 4th edition books out of curiosity.
I applaud you for your loyalty to WotC. But do you honestly think they should go broke just to keep you happy? You can point to Pathfinder and claim there was a demand for an updating of 3.5. Do you know for a fact that WotC could have survived on 3.75 sales?
And you, like everyone else, bought WotC's brand new printer after they told you they were not making ink cartridges for Printer 3.5 anymore. In essence, you, with your purchasing dollars, told them what they were doing was totally acceptable.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Sissyl, please watch your word choice, some of them can be easily seen as inflamatory.
To continue your (flawed) printer analogy, innovation happens. My first comptuer was a 486, bought two weeks before the pentiums came out. My 486 wasn't obsolete immediately, but it was going to be.
Should I rail against the heavens that I can't find replacement keys for my typewriter style printer?
As to the old printer arguement, the only similarity I can see is that, as has been pointed out, you could still buy generic ink providers. With your 3.x books, think of Pathfinder as high quality generic ink.
Does anyone have any actual citation from WoTC or anyone regarding the "3PPs are doing too well so we're going to stop the OGL" theory? I'm surprised that people consider that likely - WoTC crushed and continues to crush (as far as I can see) all the other pen and paper producers in a volume/brand name/market share sense.
I had always assumed their true "enemy" and target/reason for shifting strategies was competition with online RPGs. I presumed that restricting other publishers ability to print support material was seen as useful in boosting subscriptions to DDI, which I also presumed was a large part of the motivation for 4th edition.
I doubt WoTC lost any sleep over Goodman Games sales or had any interest in mimicking their particular version of success, WoW on the other hand would have been much more likely to be both a threat and an opportunity, imo.
There is an actual citation, though you'll have to take my word for it as I have no idea how to dig it up - a post on ENworld from sometime back in which one of the 4E developers addresses what they felt was the problem with the OGL and it essentially comes down to a complaint that what they thought they were doing with the OGL was getting tons of 3PPs to make support material for their brand. They expected adventures and campaigns but believed that what would happen was that the 3PPs would make a cool campaign world or good modules but everyone would still need the PHB and, of course, the complete Thief or whatever would work well in this new campaign world.
What actually happened, apparently anyway, was that many companies found it far more lucrative to make different games using the OGL or campaign settings so different from what WotC was doing that you'd never buy The Complete Thief to play in these games. Arcana Evolved is an example of a game world thats excellent but really does not interface with WotC supplement books. If your involved in a two year Arcana Evolved Campaign your playing D&D but your not buying anything WotC makes. Mutants and Masterminds and True 20 take this even further.
I'm not really clear how having the OGL or not really interfaces with MMORPGs one way or the other so, unless this is explained further I can't really see what WoW has to do with the OGL.
Which would seem to indicate even the 3PP saw better opportunities producing 'core' books than adventures.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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When I buy a printer, I do so PROVIDED I can count on being able to get ink cartridges for quite some time. If not, I don't buy it. With me so far, poodle?
You must be really upset about not being able to buy parts for your Pinto.
Or new games for your NES.
Or new buggy whips for you that buggy you invested in!
I think there was a lot of pressure from the corporate side of WoC/Hasbro on this Issue.
A new, but backwards compatible edition would not sell as well as a new edition. Why should people but the "Complete Peasant" again, when they already have it and can use it with the new edition.Also I think, during the last years of 3.5, the OGL was more than ever perceived as a threat to WoC D&D sales. So the new edition had to be different enough that the mechanics could not be feasibly copied under the OGL. With the more restrictive GSL WoC now think that 3PPs will not come up with alternative systems like Mutants & Masterminds or True20 using the 4th edition engine.
Moreover a new edition opens the possibility of selling all the Splat Books again. And that is what a business is about. Selling stuff.
Lastly can a new edition attract new customers. And D&D 4th was ceratinly an attempt to retain old gamers and attract new ones.
I think your last point in particular is really the key idea. If there is even a chance of bringing in lots of new blood - of making table top RPGs mainstream or close to it - then its a great opportunity. Blizzard has already shown that this is not, as has previously been presumed, some kind of far fetched fantasy. It might still be impossible - or even possible but not the way WotC is going about it but if there is a chance of bringing in tons of new blood then its worth a shot.
Or new games for your NES.
Why go back so far, Sebastian? Any version of Windows will do.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Or new games for your NES.Why go back so far, Sebastian? Any version of Windows will do.
Truth be told, there's a practically infinite number of products that will do. The premise of the argument, which appears to be "because I bought a product from you once, you need to support it indefinitely" is so egocentrical it's laughable. As much as I'd love for the world to revolve entirely around me, to have companies indefinitely produce products I like, to only make shows I watch, to only produce fiction consistent with my views of how the characters should behave or grow, it ain't gonna happen. And I'm the most important person that posts here at Paizo - the rest of you really have no shot at all.
These arguments make my brain cells rupture and cause blood to leak from my nose. I should really look away from the thread. The incoherency of the argument is obvious on its face, addressing it really gives it more merit than it is worth.
Anyway, I'm going back to tilting at windmills by writing letters to Fox that they put Firefly back on the air and include some hot lesbian action because I bought all the Firefly shwag, watched every single episode, wrote some fan fiction (including the lesbian stuff), and bought every product of every advertiser who broadcast a commercial during the show. They owe me those new episodes, even if my activities account for 0.000000000001% of their revenue and new episodes would be a loss for them.
Anyway, I'm going back to tilting at windmills by writing letters to Fox that they put Firefly back on the air...
Do not mock, sir. Fox is evil incarnate for pulling Firefly.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I bought all the Firefly shwag, watched every single episode, wrote some fan fiction (including the lesbian stuff),Link please.
What? For research purposes. Really.
"The ultimate male fantasy of girl-on-girl loses most of its attraction when you mother is gay." - Me, on several occasions.
Let's remember that WotC put out an announcement a year in advance that 4e was coming out. If people were still buying 3.5 stuff during that time, thinking it was going to be supported, well ...
Personally, I only feel love for WotC for putting out 4e. See I was never tempted one bit to switch editions. Thus when the announcement came out, suddenly everyone was dumping all their 3.5 stock for dirt cheap. And I bought the hell out of it, and still do when I see a good price for a product I don't have.
While people are complaining about needing new products, I just reach up and grab a module that I bought two years ago and haven't had time to read yet. I have a whole shelf of Dungeon Crawl modules that I've only looked through about 5 of. I still have 1 1/3 PF APs to read through. And I'll probably start picking up some of their 3.5 modules to put on the shelf. Hell, it is like I have my own personal game store that whenever I feel I need something "new and fresh" I can go and shop at.
I can only feel a sense of justification whenever I hear of some poor sap, like on that video I posted, that sold all of their 3.x stuff because they thought 4e was going to be the ultimate game, only to find it not to their personal preference, and now they are going back and trying to repurchase their lost items.
Thanks for the backstory - the whole 3.5-4th edition happened while I was playing rolemaster/GURPS/and others. I didnt start playing D and D again until after 4th edition was announced and so missed most of the shenanigans. What you say makes sense - and if someone actually involved said it then it holds more water to me.
I'm not really clear how having the OGL or not really interfaces with MMORPGs one way or the other so, unless this is explained further I can't really see what WoW has to do with the OGL.
In a business sense, I think the most fundamental and striking feature of 4th edition compared to 3.5 is the DDI subscription. I presumed that was developed in an attempt to tap into a new revenue stream. WoW players pay a lot to start up, then a little bit regularly to keep playing. I had presumed (purely speculatively) that DDI was an attempt to restructure DandD in the same direction - as such, allowing a whole bunch of 3PP companies to continue as they were may be detrimental to that shift in design. In other words, the OGL doesnt interface with MMORPPGs at all - but its existence may have competed or restricted demand for the DDI subscription service. (Which may well be competing for the same dollar in a teenager's budget, even though it's not a strict competitor).
As I say - what you said above is easily plausible and clearly more likely if that's what they said was going on. Cheers.
Same arguments, nobody who actually reads what I say, instead making fun of things I didn't say, uncalled-for warnings about my choice of words... No thank you. Have a nice discussion.
But... please come back and play!
Oh, and Athas *isn't* points of light par excellence? Oh-kay...
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Let's remember that WotC put out an announcement a year in advance that 4e was coming out. If people were still buying 3.5 stuff during that time, thinking it was going to be supported, well ...
Personally, I only feel love for WotC for putting out 4e. See I was never tempted one bit to switch editions. Thus when the announcement came out, suddenly everyone was dumping all their 3.5 stock for dirt cheap. And I bought the hell out of it, and still do when I see a good price for a product I don't have.
While people are complaining about needing new products, I just reach up and grab a module that I bought two years ago and haven't had time to read yet. I have a whole shelf of Dungeon Crawl modules that I've only looked through about 5 of. I still have 1 1/3 PF APs to read through. And I'll probably start picking up some of their 3.5 modules to put on the shelf. Hell, it is like I have my own personal game store that whenever I feel I need something "new and fresh" I can go and shop at.
I can only feel a sense of justification whenever I hear of some poor sap, like on that video I posted, that sold all of their 3.x stuff because they thought 4e was going to be the ultimate game, only to find it not to their personal preference, and now they are going back and trying to repurchase their lost items.
More power to you.
Same arguments, nobody who actually reads what I say, instead making fun of things I didn't say, uncalled-for warnings about my choice of words... No thank you. Have a nice discussion.
Is it that I am not reading your posts or that my position is unmoved by them?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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about how he loves 4th for making 3rd products cheap to getThat is so true!
But not all products got cheaper.
Ptolus, Iron Kingdom Print Products, Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Rappan Athuk Reloaded,Arcana Evolved etc.
This stuff got far more expensive in the last year or so.
I understand. I (willingly) paid 2x the cover price for Ptolus to have the dead tree copy. I was fully expecting Lisa to announce an agreement for another print run the day after my copy arrived! ;-)
One side effect along those lines is that when I grab a game book to read, it's one of my 3pp books, not WoTC When I write classes/adventures for my use, and maybe to post somewhere else, I can take comfort in using the OGL material.
So if a character used a 'great scimitar' (from Sandstorm) it now becomes a Cotannan (Kaldamar) or a Kastane (7th Sea).
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I understand. I (willingly) paid 2x the cover price for Ptolus to have the dead tree copy. I was fully expecting Lisa to announce an agreement for another print run the day after my copy arrived! ;-)
Lucky me got signed Ptolus Nr. 37 or so. But I paid about 110 USD 75 EUR) for the Wilderlands Boxed set.
One side effect along those lines is that when I grab a game book to read, it's one of my 3pp books, not WoTC When I write classes/adventures for my use, and maybe to post somewhere else, I can take comfort in using the OGL material.
So if a character used a 'great scimitar' (from Sandstorm) it now becomes a Cotannan (Kaldamar) or a Kastane (7th Sea).
That is the beauty of the OGL.
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*Absolutely CANNOT RESIST*
Not necro-posting or taking any satisfaction in this, but I genuinely want to hear what people have to say in light of current events, given how prophetic ALOT of this topic's discussion was (there were even references to a PHB I, II, III, etc…. which 4th edition then did!)
Now on a certain level, I could care less, practically. I have very little time to game these days, (started my own multimedia production company, working on our own products and writings, etc) but still religiously ascribe to and purchase Paizo products. I purchase old 3.5 supplements out of a need to collect and store that knowledge some place safe, despite having taken my entire RPG bookshelf digital a while ago. (Something about the feel of fluttering pages and the satisfying-but-quiet creak of careworn binding….)
But I found A LOT of what I an others had to say EXTREMELY foreshadowing of current events.
I want D&D as a brand to succeed and survive. I think it would be tragic to see it fall or fail. I think there is a symbiosis at this point with independent publishers ilke Paizo, and I do hope that Wizards is able to successfully reboot their franchise and truly *listens* to their many generations of fans, not just a single demographic or wave of them.
An Independent Blogger's analysis of D&D as a failing business model
An independent RPG Publisher's site with some SPOOKY predictions back on July 30th, 2009
Thoughts, folks?
*Absolutely CANNOT RESIST*
Not necro-posting or taking any satisfaction in this, but I genuinely want to hear what people have to say in light of current events, given how prophetic ALOT of this topic's discussion was (there were even references to a PHB I, II, III, etc…. which 4th edition then did!)
LOL
WotC said that they were going to put out a PHB/MM/DMG each year. It wasn't "prophetic" if the company said they were going to do it and then did it.