The title says all.
The people I play with, they're not "unwilling" to roleplay. They are completely "uncapable" of it.
Their character sheets have absolutely NO information written on the upper part, except for race, class & level -they are faceless, hairless creatures existing in a non-dimensional, wheightless space.
They do not have names -they call themselves with their real name, as there is no "in-game" mode of conversation among them.
They have no background -and when asked to create one to use as plot hook for the first session, only two bothered ("I won a turnament" & "I saved my village from goblins").
They make their characters perform stupid, slapstick actions such as kicking their NPC patron (a noble) or addressing her with "Yo, brother" (sic), "saucy wench" and such.
Maybe it's because the campaign just started, they had no time to grow attached to their characters, but still... not even the name...
I can see where this is headed, and maybe that's what they really want: simple, easygoing gaming session to unwind from the pains of everyday life. I have nothing againts such style of play, but it's not what I'd like -and being a part of the group, I think I'm entitled to my share of fun.
I'll get to the point: being a DM for more than 12 years, words fail to express my disappointment of our latest gaming session. Not in the players' actions, but in my inability to make them hooked. I have red Savage Tide, I know it has potential, but I am at loss on how to make them feel interest in the roleplaying aspect of the campaign (which most definitely do NOT involve such comical antics): a little chat with the players themselves, XP bonuses, XP penalties, coherent in-game consequences, I have absolutely no idea on what could work and what could end in "disaster" with players leaving the gamning table.
So, I'd like to have a little feedback, see the opinion folks here on the Paizo forum may had on the issue. Anything would be appreciated; I feel almost stupid for writing this. :)
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I can see where this is headed, and maybe that's what they really want: simple, easygoing gaming session to unwind from the pains of everyday life. I have nothing againts such style of play, but it's not what I'd like -and being a part of the group, I think I'm entitled to my share of fun.
Been there several times. Standard answer: you adapt your style to the group and learn to enjoy it (little it may be); discuss your feelings with them and see if they'll meet you halfway; play something entirely different that y'all will enjoy; find another group more your style.
XP penalties may feel a bit railroady. Coherent in-game consequences and XP awards, along with talking to the group about the fact that you'd like some roleplaying in there, gets the message across without enforcing it.
Back when I first started, I saw my character as a bunch of numbers to kill things with, but I noticed that all the other players around the table were getting experience points for good roleplaying, so I tried it, and I got hooked, I realized how much fun there is in actually trying to portray a different person. Needless to say, my strictly rollplaying phase didn't last long.
Now I write at least a 3 paragraph history about every single one of my characters, and it's all because of roleplaying bonus experience points.
XP penalties may feel a bit railroady.
That was my thought exactly. I remeber reading here on the boards something about XP being not a reward, but a pacing mechanism for level advancement; penalizing a player's hard earned combat experience wouldn't seem fair, at least combat is something they enjoy.
Coherent in-game consequences and XP awards, along with talking to the group about the fact that you'd like some roleplaying in there, gets the message across without enforcing it.
XP awards were my best choice, although I'm still trying to find the correct balance. Looking at the experience and level table on the Player's Handbook, I'd say a +25% increase in experience would result (at worst) in a 2-level difference between party members. Would that be fair?
(On second thought, considering the fact that we're playing with a 7-member party, probably not)Coherent consequences would seem the perfect answer, but due to their stupid behaviour and the fact that they're working for a local noble, things may go as far as being "fired" by their patron.
Maybe I'll let the story progress anyway, allowing unemployed characters to tag along the rest of the group and perform normally, save for healing, loot and rewards.
Give xps for creative role-playing and role-playing yourself helps.
Don't use the player's names when asking around the table but use the character's name. Hopefully they will pick up on it.
Don't use the player's names when asking around the table but use the character's name. Hopefully they will pick up on it.
That's something I usually do, except when characters don't even have names. I'll probably end up giving them names myself...
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If any of the players have *any* sort of description of their character, see if you can find an image online that's close enough, and reasonably evocative, and print it out so that it fits on half a sheet of paper. Write the characters name on the half with the picture, fold it and make a standee type thing to sit in front of (or beside) the player's character sheet, like a player's version of a DM screen (added bonus, print (or write) relevant combat stats on the other side, facing the player!).
Seeing the picture of each other's characters, and seeing that character's name every time they look in that direction, should help, and if you're blessed, one or more of them might actually notice the picture of their own character and say something like, 'I thought he'd look more like X...' in which case you can encourage him to find a more appropriate picture online.
Get the players invested in their own characters, each others characters, and, if you want to go to the added level of work, print out a standee for the most important and relevant NPCs or BBEGs, so that they can *see* who it is they are fighting. Don't worry about getting the NPCs or BBEGs even *remotely* accurate, just find appropriately inspiring (or loathsome) artwork online to represent them and change the description of the NPC as needed to match the picture (Yeah, the queen as always been a bodacious redhead, and not just because the picture I'm using is of Tawny Kitaen...).
Lots of people (particularly men), with your players hopefully among them, respond more strongly to visual stimulation than a purely verbal / written presentation, and finding appropriate painted figures is just a huge pain in the rear, compared to downloading some images from online. You can find them all over the place, and many players will be totally cool with the idea that the cool fantasy art image of their badaxe character is ripped off of an Ozzy Osbourne album cover or something.
By putting useful combat stats on the side facing the player (again, like a mini 'players screen'), you create a 'legitimate' reason for these images to be there, staring the players in the face throughout the game, reminding them that the figure across the table isn't 'my Army buddy, Bill,' but, today at least, is Grachnor the Bloody-Handed, Barbarian with an Axe (insert Frank Frazetta art to suit).
Don't use the player's names when asking around the table but use the character's name. Hopefully they will pick up on it.That's something I usually do, except when characters don't even have names. I'll probably end up giving them names myself...
That is sad...
Even Bob the Fighter is better than nothing. Set's answer about supplying a picture is a good idea. I just started the AoWAP and I gave each player a sheet with a picture of their character and six weeks worth of background derived from the Gateway Cities product. I also wove hits about what may happen in the first part of the AP to encourage people to actually read them.
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First things first, explain to your players that part of the enjoyment YOU are getting from the game is the immersion enjoyed by Role-Playing. It's as much your game as theirs' and on top of that if you're putting in the extra work to give them a good time the least they can do is meet you half way and put a bit of effort into the fluff of their characters.
D&D is a shared experience, and make it clear that you aren't expecting them to create massive epics, just something small. If you aren't having fun at the table what incentive do you have to keep GMing for them?
A simple history character template is:
I was raised in <region>, during my childhood <an event> gave me my current outlook on the world <explaining alignment>.
When I grew up I became a <class> because of <reason>. I adventure with my companions because I have <relationship> with <another PC>.
The Players just have to fill in the blanks really.
If any of the players have *any* sort of description of their character, see if you can find an image online that's close enough, and reasonably evocative, and print it out so that it fits on half a sheet of paper. Write the characters name on the half with the picture, fold it and make a standee type thing to sit in front of (or beside) the player's character sheet, like a player's version of a DM screen (added bonus, print (or write) relevant combat stats on the other side, facing the player!).
-Very- good idea. We use a huge table, so space won't be a problem and, being quite the collector of fantasy images, I think I'll find something suited to each player's taste. A million thanks.
PCs with detailed histories get a "karmic chance" - once when they would die...luck/fate intervenes.
This is another good option. A mechanical advantage, say one reroll per gaming session or bonus Luck feats, might appeal to my players.
First things first, explain to your players that part of the enjoyment YOU are getting from the game is the immersion enjoyed by Role-Playing. [...] D&D is a shared experience, and make it clear that you aren't expecting them to create massive epics, just something small. If you aren't having fun at the table what incentive do you have to keep GMing for them?
So true, something that players & DM alike tend to forget often. I'll address the group by making it clear that I do not want to press-gang them into being nerds.
XP penalties may feel a bit railroady.That was my thought exactly. I remeber reading here on the boards something about XP being not a reward, but a pacing mechanism for level advancement; penalizing a player's hard earned combat experience wouldn't seem fair, at least combat is something they enjoy.
Coherent in-game consequences and XP awards, along with talking to the group about the fact that you'd like some roleplaying in there, gets the message across without enforcing it.XP awards were my best choice, although I'm still trying to find the correct balance. Looking at the experience and level table on the Player's Handbook, I'd say a +25% increase in experience would result (at worst) in a 2-level difference between party members. Would that be fair?
(On second thought, considering the fact that we're playing with a 7-member party, probably not)Coherent consequences would seem the perfect answer, but due to their stupid behaviour and the fact that they're working for a local noble, things may go as far as being "fired" by their patron.
Maybe I'll let the story progress anyway, allowing unemployed characters to tag along the rest of the group and perform normally, save for healing, loot and rewards.
I'd go with a smaller XP bonus, something that won't unbalance the party too much, but shows that you appreciate the effort to RP. I'd say something like a 10% XP bonus if a player did well roleplaying during a session, or maybe even smaller then that, give each player one or two awards of 50 or 100 XP each session, based on how well they roleplayed (ex: Ted the Wizard does two things during the session that you take note of as being good roleplaying, while Bob the Fighter only does one, Ted gets 200 XP as a bonus because you noted two times, while Bob the Fighter gets 100 XP). Using that idea, don't give out more then two awards to each player per session, otherwise the players might start to claim that you're playing favorites, especially if one or two players picks up and run with the roleplaying while the rest don't. Also, if a player gets XP awards one session, try not to give it to them the next session, and try to find reasons to give XP awards to the other players.
Also, there's the way that they do it in a lot of written adventures. If the players roleplay their way out of a key combat encounter, or get information out of an NPC that otherwise wouldn't volunteer it and it furthers the adventure, give them XP equal to what they would have gotten had they defeated the creature. Examples of this include: Getting the janitor at the orphanage to spill about the fact that he's been spying on a particular orphan for the local thieve's guild, and that orphan happens to be one of the ones that got kidnapped last week; or convincing a mimic to allow you to take a key NPC's captured familiar back; etc.
(Yeah, both of the "instead of combat" examples are from the first adventure in The Shackled City AP. I'm gonna be running a PF version of it for my group in a couple weeks, so its what's been on my mind recently)
As for the coherent in game consequences, I ask you this, how would a lord in the middle ages react to a group of people addressing him as anything other then "Lord (last name)"? He'd have them executed for their insolence. Sure, it's a bit harsh, maybe allow the players to apologize and backpedal once they realize that this guy ain't kiddin' around. Basically, bring the harshest consequence down on their head, because that's how it would be in the "real fantasy world," but allow them to avoid it and backpedal if they show that they are getting that there are consequences to their actions.
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1. If they won't make backgrounds for their characters, you do it...
Tell them who they are playing, give example characters if you have to...
"I saved the farm from goblins." So, he's a farmer...tell him he's like Luke Skywalker, all his friends left the farm last year, and he's yearning to leave the farm also, instead of saved the farm, his entire family and farm was wiped out by goblins, instead of stormtroopers.
2. Tell them they have minimum gold to buy equipment. (additional items/gold will be granted if you make a decent background) DISALLOW the Rich Parents trait in this case.
3. Assign traits.
4. Grant them class skills and skill points based upon their background.
5. Award bonus XP and items from GOOD role-playing...
6. Throw away the Battlemat...it tends to make D&D into a tactical war game. It only enhances the game for a certain group of people. The ones who use the terrain for cinematic flair.
7. Put action points in there, but ENFORCE the role-play aspect, The outcome is based upon the role-played description.
"I knock the guy to the ground" doesn't work.
"Zarfal shouts. 'For Queen and Country' as he leaps through the air, slamming his shield onto the foul bugbear's head forcing him to the ground." would work. (I let action points grant skills and actions that normally wouldn't work.)
New action points are NOT gained at every level, they're gained through non-combat role-play...
It's all about positive reinforcement.
I'd go with a smaller XP bonus, something that won't unbalance the party too much, but shows that you appreciate the effort to RP. [...] Using that idea, don't give out more then two awards to each player per session, otherwise the players might start to claim that you're playing favorites
Yeah, that's what I fear most. 10% seems ok; since no player is interested in crafting magic items or such, +10% could make a difference in the long run (and that sounds fair to me).
It's all about positive reinforcement.
Thanks, Xaaon, your ideas were much appreciated. I never played Eberron so I don't know how Action Points work, but they sure seem worth a look. Can you tell me where to find character traits? I can't remember where they are.
Tha idea of providing pre-made characters is not that bad, most of the times my NPCs end up being more detailed than playing characters. I'll try the next time someone in the group dies -though I've had my share of players who are adamant in designing their own inexistent backgrounds."Zarfal shouts. 'For Queen and Country' as he leaps through the air, slamming his shield onto the foul bugbear's head forcing him to the ground." would work. (I let action points grant skills and actions that normally wouldn't work.)
I had a similar, incredibly unpleasant example with Exalted's "stunts", which basically reward players with minor bonuses and Essence for ANY described in-game action. It was a nightmare, an abusable system which slowed the game to complete stasis -and prone to infinite loops, to boot. But the experience was instructive, I think I'll be able to hande these Action Points. Thanks again.
Talk to your players. You have just as much right to enjoy your game as anyone else. Maybe someone else would be willing to run the hack-fest they seem to want.
I suspect they will be willing to meet you halfway once they realize one of them might have to step up and run the game.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Part of the problem is you can't make your players do anything they don't want to do. You can reward them when they do what you want, but really, who is that making happy? You or them? You either accept that this group of players doesn't do the extensive background, in character speeches or you can find a new group that does.
A tangential issue I see a lot with groups like this is that they're not interested in the game because they've not been hooked. The way I see it you've got about a half hour of real time to hook the players. If you don't hit their happy places during that time, it may never hit their happy places. In a lot of lower level modules the first half hour is spent establishing setting. Skip that and jump straight to combat. When that's over, then do the setting/patron/background stuff.
I haven't chimed in on these types of threads in a while, but here's a little advice.
I have had a ton of players like this over the past 25 years. A lot of people need a little nudge to get going.
Whenever I started a new campaign or someone brought in a new character the first thing I did was hand them a Character Personality Generator. It was just a little sheet I had saved as a Word document. I'd print one out or e-mail it to them and have them fill it out and hang on to it. I'd keep a copy for myself as well to refer to when I wanted to throw some character development in to the campaign.
The sheet went something like this:
1. Your name:
2. Your character's name:
3. What does your character look like?
4. Any distinguishing or unusual marks?
5. Any specific character traits? (ex: lisp, bad temper, nervous, etc.)
6. Does he/she have any family? If so, who are they?
7. What are some of your character's likes?
8. Dislikes?
9. What is your character's catchphrase, if any?
10. Why did he/she become an adventurer?
11. What are some of his/her short term goals?
12. Long term goals?
13. What would your character do if he/she had 5,000 gp?
14. How about 50,000 gp?
15. What are some of your character's favorite foods/drinks?
16. Is there anything that he/she really hates or fears?
Once my players started thinking about these questions, they quickly visualized the character they wanted to play. Making up things like their character traits (#5 above) gave them more motivation to role-play because they now had a fun quirk or gimmick to act out.
There were a bunch of other good pointers above as well. Calling your players by their character names, having pictures of their characters and their names on a placcard in front of them, promoting good roleplay by setting the example by doing so yourself, and keeping your group down to 6 players or less... Those are all great ways to promote good roleplay.
I would AVOID awarding xp to players for roleplaying. I tried it before and all you're going to do is alienate those players that aren't as comfortable doing it as those that are and create bad feeling between them. DON'T DO IT.
Some other ideas:
Use mood music softly playing in the background. And I don't mean your favorite rock or metal mix. I'm talking D&D music (or whatever genre you play). Conan, Harry Potter, LotR soundtracks work wonders.
You could also play by lantern or candlelight or just dim the lights so that light is focused on the game table and mat. By dimming lights you fade out the surrounding distractions. Out of sight, out of mind goes a long way towards keeping players focused on the game and puts them more in the mood to immerse themselves in the world your creating for them.
Most importantly, remember that you CANNOT make someone role-play if they just don't want to. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it." Try to promote it as best you can and enjoy those players that do contribute to the roleplaying, but don't get frustrated with those that don't. If you just can't have fun without everyone role-playing on the same level, then you need to find another group that does.
Anyway, that's all the advice I have for now. Hope mine and other's tips help you.
Dang, my post was eaten!
Anyway: I do not wish to force my players to do anything. I just wish them to enjoy and become interested in the adventure path to its fullest, expecially considering the time & energy I put into every gaming session. Without interest, I think the campaign will end being nothing more than a waste of time on both parts.
Thanks for the Character Generator, Steve. Though I think my players will see it more as a useless chore, it's still worth a shot. I think I'll start to award bonus XP and action points for "not-stupid" behavior, and see what will happen.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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If you're absolutely sold on the idea to reward action points and bonus XP based on something, then I have a tip for you. Any time you reward certain behavior, it will cause the players to think you want more of that behavior or alternatively to resent you because you're not rewarding their enjoyment of the game. So take it out of your hands. At my table we issue action points based on cool points. A player only gets a cool point if another player nominates the action as cool and the rest of the table unanimously agrees. That way you're not the bad guy and it's a bit more democratic.
...or alternatively to resent you because you're not rewarding their enjoyment of the game.
That is always a concern of mine as well. I believe the GM is entitled to enjoy his own game. On the other hand, what right does a GM have to tell others how to enjoy the game.
This is why I believe it is best to openly discuss things with your players. Acknowledge that different people want different things out of the game and they are all valid. Then try to find common ground for everyone.
Indeed, it is quite sad to play a roleplaying game without the actual roleplaying part.
That's missing a major part of the game. Actually the main one.
But that's still possible.
Consider it this way : Many people play online roleplaying games and MMORPGs without even remotely touching the "RPG".
Sometimes they even laugh at roleplayers, even in RP servers (like in World of Warcraft), arguing it's goofy, childish, or worse.
They just enjoy the action, the quests and combats. They don't really interact with other players, or certainly not between characters.
And that's fine.
Well, maybe you can explore the game in this direction with your players, giving the minimum necessary descriptions of creatures, environments and situations, and let them play in their non RP style.
You might miss the roleplaying aspect, but you can devote your attention to the technical aspect of the game, and consider it as a tactical game.
Like a wargame. Which is actually where roleplaying games came from.
Any time you reward certain behavior, it will cause the players to think you want more of that behavior or alternatively to resent you because you're not rewarding their enjoyment of the game.
My intention was to encourage literally "non-stupid" behaviour. Not brilliant. Not tactical. Not roleplay, for sure. Just "not-stupid", where stupid means "pulling the king's beard and calling him fatso" or "covering yourself in laxative since you took a sneak peek at the campaign log, saw the illustration of a T-rex and know it's coming". So, on that regard: yes, I want to encourage "non-stupid" behavior.
Why? I am not resenting my players because they're not rewarding -my- enjoyment of the game; I don't get even "angry" at players when they kill major villains or foil master plans ahead of times, even though that could count as "spoiling my enjoyment of the game" (sarcasm not intended). I could run a whole year of un-rewarding sessions, if only my players were interested and hooked on the campaign (although that would be a little paradoxical, since their interest is my enjoyment -see where this is headed?).I'm resenting their actions because they're made out of boredom and ennui, complete disinterest in almost anything save for the occasional natural 20.
That leaves me puzzled on exactly why they come to the gaming table.
A player only gets a cool point if another player nominates the action as cool and the rest of the table unanimously agrees. That way you're not the bad guy and it's a bit more democratic.
This -is- good. Very good. A democratic system that finally takes some work off from me, rewards player creativity & lets the group make a statement about what they want from the game. Thanks! :)
Acknowledge that different people want different things out of the game and they are all valid.
I thank you for your kind words, but as a joke let me say that I'm not sure "delusions of grandeur" is a valid aspiration for a gamer to have; I've had players walk away from the table, and -still- have a whiney, spoiled, powermongering attitude on real problems... with humans! Powerplaying is a neat thing, but I've seen my share of people ruined by it.
They just enjoy the action, the quests and combats. They don't really interact with other players, or certainly not between characters.
And that's fine.
[...]
Well, maybe you can explore the game in this direction with your players, giving the minimum necessary descriptions of creatures, environments and situations, and let them play in their non RP style.
Yes, that's fine alright. People play to have pleasant moments, and it doesn't matter how they get them (unless that inconveniences in real life). That's good, I agree. My frustration, however, stems from the fact that I can't seem to get my players to have those moments. My inadequate knowledge of english makes the following sentence the clearest way I can make myself: they play, they like it, but they don't it.
But I'm not giving up on them. Oh, no I'm not. I'm recieving some good inputs here, and I thank you all for your support -even if some of my remarks may come across as trollish or rude.We usually play on Tuesdays, so there's plenty of time to go...
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Any time you reward certain behavior, it will cause the players to think you want more of that behavior or alternatively to resent you because you're not rewarding their enjoyment of the game.My intention was to encourage literally "non-stupid" behaviour. Not brilliant. Not tactical. Not roleplay, for sure. Just "not-stupid", where stupid means "pulling the king's beard and calling him fatso" or "covering yourself in laxative since you took a sneak peek at the campaign log, saw the illustration of a T-rex and know it's coming". So, on that regard: yes, I want to encourage "non-stupid" behavior.
Why? I am not resenting my players because they're not rewarding -my- enjoyment of the game; I don't get even "angry" at players when they kill major villains or foil master plans ahead of times, even though that could count as "spoiling my enjoyment of the game" (sarcasm not intended). I could run a whole year of un-rewarding sessions, if only my players were interested and hooked on the campaign (although that would be a little paradoxical, since their interest is my enjoyment -see where this is headed?).
I'm resenting their actions because they're made out of boredom and ennui, complete disinterest in almost anything save for the occasional natural 20.
That leaves me puzzled on exactly why they come to the gaming table.A player only gets a cool point if another player nominates the action as cool and the rest of the table unanimously agrees. That way you're not the bad guy and it's a bit more democratic.This -is- good. Very good. A democratic system that finally takes some work off from me, rewards player creativity & lets the group make a statement about what they want from the game. Thanks! :)
Acknowledge that different people want different things out of the game and they are all valid.I thank you for your kind words, but as a joke let me say that I'm not sure "delusions of grandeur" is a...
Unfortunately, with the group you have, pulling the king's beard, MIGHT, be considered "cool"
I couldn't handle that group you have, while the group I had was having trouble being in character at times, they weren't doing completely non-nonsensical things...
Since they are non-RPers, it seems they enjoy the challenges you throw at them, perhaps just running Dungeon crawls would be up their aisle.
Ah, I think I have a new understanding of your dilemma now. Again, I think the best course is to talk to your players and inform them, that, while you do not mind someone cracking up now and then, you want the game to be a little more serious. This ain't Toon.
To be honest, I suffer from the same problem you have. My current group is fairly mature and old hat at gaming. They are not doing ridiculous things in game, however, I do not feel that any of them is invested in their character and, by extension, the world.
I am still working on this issue myself. Some advice given to me was, "Make it personal." Connect the PCs to the world. NPCs recognize them and act according to their reputation. The king passes them over for a juicy quest because they do not take anything seriously. Let's just forget the loyalist who want to see the jokers at the end of a rope for offending 300 years of dynasty. People point and laugh because, "Those were the clowns that covered themselves in prune juice." A small child walks up and tugs one of their cloaks, "Are you possessed or 'touched'? Mama says you are crazy and that we should stay away from you in case we catch it."
I was brainstorming some ideas for sub plots and stumbled across something that might make them invest. A dying opponent asks for a final request: that the PCs take care of his only daughter. Make the daughter young enough that even your perviest player does not go there and then endanger her. Hopefully they will latch on and straighten out.
When a character pulls the king's beard, the king does not tolerate it, does he? He arrests the pc, and next time the player will think twice about such an action.
Make sure that "stupid" actions have consequences. If the NPC's react in a logical way, perhaps the players will.
But then again, first talk to your players and ask what they expect from the game. If that does not help, be free to use this advice. Hope it helps.
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When a character pulls the king's beard, the king does not tolerate it, does he? He arrests the pc, and next time the player will think twice about such an action.
When a first time gamer decided to backstab the inkeeper in the stables to leave without paying, just because they wanted to try out the ability, the rest of the party just managed to save them as they dangled at the end of the rope.
She played closer to the 'chaotic good' on her sheet after that.
My post got eaten again - TWICE! Arrrgh.
Anyway:
Court Fool, you get my vote for "Best Poodle Ever". Thanks. I'm -so- going to use your tips in my campaign. Savage Tide has just the "reoccurring enemey".
On a different matter, browsing around the Paizo Blog, I found this:
Do you encourage your players to create well-thought-out backgrounds complete with hooks that you can insert into your campaign?
I do, but don't reward. I basically tell my players that if they come up with interesting backgrounds, then they'll get more out of my campaign; it will be more personal for them, as I'll take their hooks and use them in the plot. If you don't create a background, then you'll still have fun, but maybe the story won't be as personal for you. Either is fine; I let the players decide what they want out of the campaign.
Once their concepts are made I like to work with them to get them all together, but there are some players who just like to show up and go, and that's fine. I think well thought out is more fun, but of course sometimes my problem is that I'll create a really long and detailed history and then die after one session. (laughs)
Looks like James hit the spot. Most players do not even bother to give their characters a name probably because they're afraid of early character death syndrome. Should I implement a get-out-of-jail-free mechanic for players who provide a background?
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It's entirely possible that they have never been exposed or pushed enough to try roleplaying. Maybe they want to but don't want to stick their necks out.
XP bonuses are a good idea.
Work with what you've got. Talk to the "farmer" and the "gladiator" and prod some details in game. Have NPCs talk to them and ask them about their lives. Be patient with the answers. I would highly recommend inserting a DMPC into the party. I hardly ever run games without one now - they get no special treatment, but if the party ever gets stuck on a combat/puzzle/roleplaying encounter they are a handy way to keep the ideas and suggestions flowing in game. The more your DMPC talks, the more likely the characters will talk back, and hopefully to each-other.
At some point you can try the opposite tack - have the group turn against you by berating and insulting the party with your NPCs. Just be careful not to overdo it and make it clear out of game it is an act. Have your monsters make fun of them when they fumble - you'll be surprised at how defensive the group will get for each-other. Since your group likes combat, this may be your most consistently effective option. Having the party cheer for a critical and then hack up a monsters body for sale is just as valid roleplaying as talking to the barkeep for 2 hours.
My players love it when monsters get lippy and then get their comeuppance. Don't be afraid to fudge things to increase the drama if your group relies on the dice all the time.
Should I implement a get-out-of-jail-free mechanic for players who provide a background?
I would advise against this. If you read around a bit, you will find many people feel very strongly against this. Knowing their character can not die kills their immersion, and thus their fun.
I generally do not tell my players that their characters can not die. I do cheat at times to prevent an untimely death. This is not the same as someone sacrificing themselves for a heroic ending. Keep in mind an opponent may have many reasons for not killing a downed foe. Ransom, bait, enslavement.
Coup de grace in the middle of combat is usually tactically ill advised.
Oh, and how about, "I can not kill you…you are my long lost son!"
Should I implement a get-out-of-jail-free mechanic for players who provide a background?I would advise against this. If you read around a bit, you will find many people feel very strongly against this. Knowing their character can not die kills their immersion, and thus their fun.
Yes, sorry, I didn't explained myself clearly. I meant something along the lines of one free reroll per gaming session.
Oh. I see no problem with that. A lot of gaming systems have implemented something similar.
Oh, and how about, "I can not kill you…you are my long lost son!"
That is something I tried more than once. I tell my players that their characters WILL have a background, either provided by them or me, and then generally improvise story hooks as the plot unfolds -works extremely well on individuals with strange ancestors (aasimars, tieflings and so on).
I'd still like them to make their own story, however... most players, apathic as they may be, react poorly when they see their characters "forced" to have a story.Oh. I see no problem with that. A lot of gaming systems have implemented something similar.
Really? Didn't know that... can you tip me on some of such systems? :)
Really? Didn't know that... can you tip me on some of such systems? :)
Um…off the top of my head, Mutants & Masterminds , Prose Descriptive Qualities (PDQ), True20, I think Spirit of the Century. Did Eberron Action Points allow you to re-roll?
While not available to everyone, G.U.R.P.S.' Luck Advantage allowed you to make re-rolls.
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Even the Luck feats in Complete Scoundrel allowed one to reroll a good deal of types.
And the Eberron Action Points as expanded in Unearthed Arcana allowed you to do crazy things like acquire or improve feats for a round. In one game I went even further and allowed them to make extra attacks, re-cast spells, or do crazy stuff without a roll ("I use an action point to jump on top of the wheel-barrow, kick it free, ride it down the hill to fling myself over the wall sword-first at the hill giant!")
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Some 'action points' are only get a free re-roll sort of deals. Others are more like 'drama points' where the player gets to dictate some action or plot-affecting event or occurence, like the existence of a chandelier in a room that he can swing off of, or a old, bent lockpick being abandoned in the cell where the party is captured (that the mage can mend and the rogue can use), etc.
The second option requires more trust, obviously, and some players would walk all over that sort of thing. Then again, if the points were only awarded by the DM in the event of particularly good RP, it might even be worth it to let them 'disrupt' a combat scene by adding an element in their favor if it gets them to participate meaningfully (and not act boorishly) in the rest of the game.
How about you take a clean slate approach. It is first level early in the game you must set the scene and you can afford to be ruthless. If necessary and the characters insult a noble and offence is taken & a duel ensues the noble can hire a professional and have them killed or the town guard can intervene and they get hung- you havent lost much in the start of the campaign (i relaise this is drastic and you should not have to go to this point)
tell them when you are speaking in character you will assume they are. The when the noble speaks to htem and they kick him/her in the butt or refer to her as a saucy wench she slaps them or calls the guard. If they continue to act like pillocks they will eventually die -see above
I ran a game where the characters were making jokes about the patron as he was talking. I turned to the one making the joke and in game said "How dare you speak like that you worthless scum." he started by saying he didnt mean to say that etc and pretty quickly switched into character.
You are fortunate in that it is right at the start of the game. You can set the tone now. Describe stuff and actions as much as possible- have someone question them about who they are- where they come from why they should be trusted with this mission- have the patron as open questions "I heard you were involved in a bar brawl at the Stunted Monk last week- was that you?" or "I find the greatsword too difficult to wield in close quarters or on a ship do you think you will be able to fight if called upon" or "Why would a dwarf such as yourself involve yourself in the affairs of my people?" Open questions force the player to make up something to answer you- dont penalise someone who gives a crud answer except have the [patron look at them funny & when the patron sends them off on a mission the patron can give the people they like a potion of say curing as she trusts them to use it properly--- also When a good answer is given IMMEDIATELY hand over a poker chip or tiddly wink, call it a fate point. The players will get the gist.
fate points are better than exp in my opinion. Make sure
a) no-one can have more than 5 or 6 at a time
b) they have little effects ie confirm a crit roll, reroll a d20, reduce a crit multiplier by 1 etc
there are lots of rules about fate/action points to choose from i prefer small effects so they are used freely and not hoarded
I ran a game where the characters were making jokes about the patron as he was talking. I turned to the one making the joke and in game said "How dare you speak like that you worthless scum." he started by saying he didnt mean to say that etc and pretty quickly switched into character.
I agree with this with the one caveat. Sometimes, roleplaying is funny. Not because the person is trying to be funny, but because we're human, we know we're roleplaying, and it's just silly and funny.
I won't penalize players if they crack up. I assume their characters take everything seriously because the character doesn't know he's a puppet. But the guy holding the strings does, and he's allowed to find anything funny as long as the spirit of the interaction is maintained.
I actually love situations like this, where players are roleplaying so well that the silliness comes out, not with direct jokes, but the overacting and the melodrama/absurd situations just make my group crack up.
Aaaah... good times.
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My intention was to encourage literally "non-stupid" behaviour. Not brilliant. Not tactical. Not roleplay, for sure. Just "not-stupid", where stupid means "pulling the king's beard and calling him fatso" or "covering yourself in laxative since you took a sneak peek at the campaign log, saw the illustration of a T-rex and know it's coming". So, on that regard: yes, I want to encourage "non-stupid" behavior.
Why? I am not resenting my players because they're not rewarding -my- enjoyment of the game; I don't get even "angry" at players when they kill major villains or foil master plans ahead of times, even though that could count as "spoiling my enjoyment of the game" (sarcasm not intended). I could run a whole year of un-rewarding sessions, if only my players were interested and hooked on the campaign (although that would be a little paradoxical, since their interest is my enjoyment -see where this is headed?).
I'm resenting their actions because they're made out of boredom and ennui, complete disinterest in almost anything save for the occasional natural 20.
That leaves me puzzled on exactly why they come to the gaming table.
Consequences. If they do something stupid, something bad happens. Someone upsets the king, he executes them, that sort of thing. It might seem harsh, but they may be bored because they can get away with this stuff - there isn't much challenge. In a sense, that might e your contribution to the problem they are facing - apart from combat, they aren't really being challenged - they can do really stupid stuff and get away with it. A lack of in-game consequences for rolelaying will lead to a loss of interest in it.
Also, you might need to be a tougher disciplinarian at the table. Sometimes it's the DM's job to get things rolling through player ennui, even if they don't realise it. Truck up to the table with no character name, you don't play. Come up with some stupid name to annoy the DM, you don't play. Frankly, you might lose some players, but unless these are bosom buddies of yours that might not be such bad thing. Is there a "ringleader" for this particular behaviour? You might want to talk to said person, and (most likely) persuade them to leave. Also, did I get the impression that you have a big number of players? In a large group of people there is less impetus to take responsibility, so losing a few players might make for a better experience all round.
But, in the end, it sounds like the best you will ever get is probably a bunch of powergamers. It is difficult to get people to play outside their comfort zones and, as you say, it might just be their idea of fun. You are very unlikely to get any significant change in their behaviour, though you might be able to nudge it in the direction you want to go in.
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Morieth-welcome to the boards. If you haven't received some, Lilith will come by soon and offer you cookies.
Now, on the important matter at hand. I've been a game master for 27 years and can immediately appreciate the situation you are in and must quickly suggest two things if you're open to some coaching: 1) realize that you can change any situation or dynamic at your table (it may take time/effort or require tough decisions) 2) a game can only be as good as the players at the table (choose them carefully and address all troublesome issues immediately)
Those two points said. I wish you luck. There is no single solution to most game dynamics, though this community has already started to point out some suggestions to consider. And, there are many different ways different people will view the same situation.
Here are what I "guess" would be my Top 10 suggestions to try:
1. Get rid of them. Hand select players that will play the style of roleplaying you enjoy the most.
2) If you keep them, you must train them. Show patience. Things will be bumpy to start. Be open and transparent with your views, set emotion aside. As them if they are willing to learn about roleplaying and develop their characters over time? (The adventure path is certainly long enough for your to work on them over time.)
3) Expect less from them. Malcolm Gladwell's book Blink is a pretty good summary of how GMs can eye-up players. We know in a blink whether its gonna work or not. Truly, your blink says no, but that does not mean you can't help them develop their rp. The only way to avoid disappointment, if you decide to work with them, is to lower your expectations. Realize that folks must crawl before walking, walk before running, and run before racing... Avoid judging them based on low rp skill. RP is a skill that can be taught. True talent may be uncovered/discovered in the process - talent cannot be taught.
4) Change games for now. Perhaps something far simpler like an introductory module would be good for them. Unless, by chance they are experienced "players" but have no rp skill or desire, in which case, see #2 or #2. Maybe something very open, fluid, and short might entice them to rp a bit while giving them mostly the type of game their looking to play. (And of course, you might recommend they find a game where COMBAT statistics take up more than 4/5 of the character sheet with an implication that everything can be solved with combat. I am looking at you 4e. Perhaps a game like that is what they're looking for.)
5) Tactical stuff - (if you choose to stay and teach): a) begin with character descriptions b) backstory c) listing goals for each character d) set up a relationship between two of the characters i.e. brothers e) ask them what kind of adventure might their characters really care about (yes, I realize this approach to GMing is radical, but using this model you can create an adventure or subplot to Savage Tide/AoW or whatever that ties in their PCs more tightly) f) in-game do not provide reward without commensurate rp (not talking XP here, just make it obvious that talking to the villain, not slaying him is essential to be successful) g) provide reqards immediately for good rp - starting with even the smallest signs of rp, thow out a "hero point" or a "+1 certificate" or a magic item. This is pavlovian, I know, but it works. This postitive reinforcement can change behaviors effectively over a six-week period of time. Again, don't expect instant results, but this is pretty much guaranteed at about the six-week point provided you have been obvious and consistent about how rewards are earned. This is the same mechanism that causes many players to NOT rp, except in reverse.
Oh... gotta run... more l8er on this. Let me know if this was helpful.
I'd echo Pax's most excellent points, especially #1 (which mirrors Aubrey's advice, and mine) and #3 (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em). Personally, rather than have a lousy game in which the players don't see eye to eye, I'd prefer to have no game at all.
...if you can't beat 'em, join 'em...
I guess I'm pretty wedded to the idea that you can beat 'em. Catch them unawares with a handy blunt instrument, and I'm pretty sure you can do it. Do a series of one-on-one games so that the party can't gang up on you. After a few good beatings, people should be more rp-amenable and rp-malleable. Call it, "gamer tenderizing".
Seriously, though, Morieth, the best of luck to you as you try to implement a solution. We've all been there, even if we were so young when we learned how to role-play that we no longer remember learning how, we've all had the frustrating players and some of them can and do learn to become great role-players with encouragement and guidance. I've seen some people never budge and others go on to become inspiring players and eventually GMs.
[ golum ] Damn, filthy, gay hobbitses! [ /golum ]