.
But in reality AC is not the problem… melee damage potential is the issue.
I agree. But I'm not sure I see a solution to that. Like you said AC isn't an issue, it's something you can do well. So go extreme with it is all I am saying. Pile it on and cast in melee for your damage/cc.
If that doesn't fit your goals I'm not sure but don't forget all the buffs you have they will up your damage some.
I would go for anythign that enchance my ability with the sword using agility. Combat Expertise, Combat Reflex or Agile Maneuvers sound like better options for THIS kind of character
I forgot about the 13 strength min... damn it... drop a possable +6 to my melee damage ::grumbles::
Combat Expertise -
This is all defensive, I don't think AC is going to be an issue, Chain Shirt (+4), Dex (+3), Shield (+2) I'm looking at a 19 AC at 1st level.. with magic and magic vestment as well as dex boost items AC seems like an non-issue.
Combat Reflex -
is it's really worth it when all you deal is d6 damage?
Agile Maneuvers -
Everything I have read about the CMB vs CMD is that unless your character is the "Uber <name maneuver here> god" and thus you are better off attacking. Besides this adds just an additional feat to the list that could have been saved with a strength based melee cleric.
:::proceeds to slam head on keyboard:::::
prfr ;; ;rhrg;uhj gr o; rg ohj grgr gr ;o;lj ;lrgol; il g;l i;grijl ;a
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But in reality AC is not the problem… melee damage potential is the issue.S 10 (1)
D 14 [16] (5)
C 11 (1)
I 12 (2)
W 15 (7)
Ch 14 (5)Skills 5* (class +2, Intelligence +1, human +1, favored class +1)
* Jess Door mentioned that I get one more skill… but I don’t know from were
Acrobatics
Diplomacy
Sense Motive
Linguistics
SpellcraftLevel / Feats
1 / Weapon Finesse, Selective Channeling (put that 14 cha to good use)
3 / Weapon Focus
5 / Power Attack
7 / Vital Strike
8 / Combat Casting
11 / Improved Critical: RapierCharacter Traits
Birthmark
Armor ExpertI can swap the Dexterity and Wisdom to give my spells some extra Oomph at lower levels… But as a Dex based fighting cleric take a slap in the fact to my melee damage. An earth shattering d6! If I focus on Strength instead of dexterity I save myself a feat and gain a +3 to hit and damage, but my AC is “the suck”.
I just look at the above character and there is nothing “Amazing” about the build at all…
Now maybe there is a feat combination I just don’t see….
Some people say I should take two levels of rogue but I lose d6 to my channel, an entire level of spells, and LOSE +1 to my BAB in the process.
I know this might sound shocking, but I'd start it out this way:
Str 14 [5]
Dex 16 (14+2) [5]
Con 10
Int 13 [3]
Wis 15 [7]
Cha 10
Your channel energy is more an after combat thing at this point, sure, but its still there, if your worried about uses per day, take extra channeling.
For Feats, I'd go dodge/mobility/spring attack, take combat casting, and weapon finesse.
Gives you a bit more damage potential, but also focuses in on the swashbuckler style, which isn't hit them the hardest, it was hit them, hit them, and hit them some more, while not getting hit in return. Between buffs and spells, you should be alright, and being able to still channel energy, and spontaneous cast cure spells, means you can still heal when needed.
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I know this might sound shocking, but I'd start it out this way:
Str 14 [5]
Dex 16 (14+2) [5]
Con 10
Int 13 [3]
Wis 15 [7]
Cha 10Your channel energy is more an after combat thing at this point, sure, but its still there, if your worried about uses per day, take extra channeling.
For Feats, I'd go dodge/mobility/spring attack, take combat casting, and weapon finesse.
Gives you a bit more damage potential, but also focuses in on the swashbuckler style, which isn't hit them the hardest, it was hit them, hit them, and hit them some more, while not getting hit in return. Between buffs and spells, you should be alright, and being able to still channel energy, and spontaneous cast cure spells, means you can still heal when needed.
you forgett hat he intends to use his high charisma in game... as per the swachbuckling tradition...
I won't recommend Power attack... your character already lacks bonuses on hitting... its good for a fighter, but for a cleric its really a no no... t would only work when you had very low level enemies.. and I do believe you requiere Str 13...
I would go for anythign that enchance my ability with the sword using agility. Combat Expertise, Combat Reflex or Agile Maneuvers sound like better options for THIS kind of character
Combat Reflexes works only when you get an AoO. With a rapier or any other finesse weapon, this is pretty much never unless you can get reach or greater trip.
Combat Expertise gives the same penalty to attack rolls as power attack. Why is one good and one bad?
Agile Maneuvers works only in offense. Unless the character plans on boosting his CMB a lot, this won't be too useful.
Right. That was the destructive part of my post. Let's move on to constructive part, where I'll show a build that benefits from each of these feats.
That Agile Maneuvers reminded me of a nice glitch in the rules that can work for a high dex character. There's a feat called fury's fall, which gices dex bonus on trip checks. This stacks with agile maneuvers, and if you're willing to concentrate on tripping, you could build a supporting swashbuckler that doesn't deal much damage in combat, but instead acts as a flanking buddy and a tripper for his teammates.
The only problem with this is the fact that you can't trip with a rapier, so you'd have to trip with an unarmed strike (if that's even allowed anymore. I'm not sure.)
Anyway, If you'd go this way, I'd pick feats like this:
1st level: combat expertise + improved trip
3rd level: Fury's Fall
5th level: Agile Maneuvers
7th level: whatever you want. Weapon finesse and Combat Reflexes come to mind.
9th level: greater trip.
11th level: again, whatever you want.
If STR modifier is negative, switch Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall to have a slightly better CMB at 3rd and 4th level.
As the above build shows, this is pretty feat intensive tactic to use. Actually, at 1st and 2nd level, tripping won't be your main thing, because you lack the bonuses that you'd get from high STR. Only at 4rd level will you start to get into tripping, and at 5th level you should be pretty good at it, even if you lost a couple points from theoretical maximum to cleric BAB.
I know this might sound shocking, but I'd start it out this way:
Str 14 [5]
Dex 16 (14+2) [5]
Con 10
Int 13 [3]
Wis 15 [7]
Cha 10Your channel energy is more an after combat thing at this point, sure, but its still there, if your worried about uses per day, take extra channeling.
For Feats, I'd go dodge/mobility/spring attack, take combat casting, and weapon finesse.
Gives you a bit more damage potential, but also focuses in on the swashbuckler style, which isn't hit them the hardest, it was hit them, hit them, and hit them some more, while not getting hit in return. Between buffs and spells, you should be alright, and being able to still channel energy, and spontaneous cast cure spells, means you can still heal when needed.
GASP!
I have been thinking about this, but the channel is such an amazing ability it seems like a waste to toss it aside..
Just think about it, at 3rd level you can heal everyone in your party for 2d6 in the mist of combat... in essence countering the effetcs of a AoE 2nd level AoE spell...
Besides Swashbucklers are suposed to be Charming :oP which is the main reasion for the 14 in charisma (helps Diplomacy skill which every swashbuckler should have, I was planing on bluff as well after I pick up a few languages)
you forgett hat he intends to use his high charisma in game... as per the swachbuckling tradition...I know this might sound shocking, but I'd start it out this way:
Str 14 [5]
Dex 16 (14+2) [5]
Con 10
Int 13 [3]
Wis 15 [7]
Cha 10Your channel energy is more an after combat thing at this point, sure, but its still there, if your worried about uses per day, take extra channeling.
For Feats, I'd go dodge/mobility/spring attack, take combat casting, and weapon finesse.
Gives you a bit more damage potential, but also focuses in on the swashbuckler style, which isn't hit them the hardest, it was hit them, hit them, and hit them some more, while not getting hit in return. Between buffs and spells, you should be alright, and being able to still channel energy, and spontaneous cast cure spells, means you can still heal when needed.
I'm not forgetting. But I'm looking at it from and RP and optimization point of view. 2 points of charisma mod won't make or break the charisma based skills. Witty reparte and a flair for panache is roleplaying, not a stat. So looking at what he had, mechanically, those four points of charisma were in there for channel energy and the skill bonuses. Since he is dealing with a limited pool of points, if something can be handled by roleplaying, and not stats, I'd say lets not devote stats to it, since there is the limit.
That way he can be effective in combat (something he wants to do), have the swashbuckler style going (his skill selection and RP choices will cover that, and again, soemthing he wants to do), whithout sacrificing overmuch of what he feels people will expect of him playing a cleric( healing, which he can still convert to cure spells and channel energy).
I'm not saying he has to do it that way. I'm not even saying he has to like what I wrote. I was trying to present an option for him, one that I thought would meet his goals and desires.
I know this might sound shocking, but I'd start it out this way:
Str 14 [5]
Dex 16 (14+2) [5]
Con 10
Int 13 [3]
Wis 15 [7]
Cha 10Your channel energy is more an after combat thing at this point, sure, but its still there, if your worried about uses per day, take extra channeling.
For Feats, I'd go dodge/mobility/spring attack, take combat casting, and weapon finesse.
Gives you a bit more damage potential, but also focuses in on the swashbuckler style, which isn't hit them the hardest, it was hit them, hit them, and hit them some more, while not getting hit in return. Between buffs and spells, you should be alright, and being able to still channel energy, and spontaneous cast cure spells, means you can still heal when needed.
GASP!
I have been thinking about this, but the channel is such an amazing ability it seems like a waste to toss it aside..
Just think about it, at 3rd level you can heal everyone in your party for 2d6 in the mist of combat... in essence countering the effetcs of a AoE 2nd level AoE spell...
Besides Swashbucklers are suposed to be Charming :oP which is the main reasion for the 14 in charisma (helps Diplomacy skill which every swashbuckler should have, I was planing on bluff as well after I pick up a few languages)
Your not dropping channel, your just not focusing on it. Your channel ability is still usable 3 times a day, and you could take a feat to do it more often. Its still an option you have, which adds to your flexibility in a game.
I said i my post above about my opinion of the charisma, but I'll say it again in a (maybe) more elegant way...
When you have a limited stat pool, you need to decide what aspects of your character can be roleplayed (not stat based) versus what has to be mechanically sound (combat resolution for example, is all mechanics). Having a 10 Charisma doesn't make you uncharming, it means you get no mechanical bonus for it. Your skills will provide the mechanical aspect of it.
eh, like I said, its my take on it. Not gonna say you have to play that way, just trying to provide an option for you, since I <3 the idea of a swashbuckling cleric.
@Lehmuska
You can trip unarmed but I think it provokes an attack of opportunity, unless you have improved unarmed strike.
And yes its VERY feat intensive, I don’t know if I want to play the “trip monkey” I did it in 3.5 with the spike chain and after the 6th adventure I asked the GM if I could play something else…
Nice build though….
@Montalve
Ok I read the edited post… I like the bluff idea; for sure I’m going to swap out linguistics for bluff after 2nd level. I was thinking, if I’m going to properly prophesize the blessings of beer, I should know how to say “Bartender a round for everyone!” in every language.
/wink
The Improved Faint is a good idea, but to make it really work I need to take a level of rogue (to make it a class skill and get the yummy +3)
And I was looking at casting buff spells, but I want to make sure I don’t take 2 rounds buffing up when combat starts when I can jump into the fray!
@Krigare
I see where you are coming from, and I totally get you… but, don’t you think the loss of +2 to Diplomacy, and Bluff (later when I take it) maybe be a hindrance when I’m trying to “talk our way out of it?” or in the right “case in point” trying to talk our way in… or talk my way into a wenches bed chamber
::evil smirk:: hay everyone needs a room at the Inn!! I just find a better way to pay for it.
Besides I will just hate it the first time I bump into an adventure the adventure says <name of female character here> reacts favorably to any male with a 14 or higher charisma... and I’m sitting at a 10… now don’t get me wrong, I’m still thinking about it.
@Freesword
Yes the more and more I think about it, the more I see myself having to go two levels of Rogue…. Which until I get to 6th level or so the muti-classing is going to hurt my performance... (I was also thinking bard for the two levels…)
You and Montalve have a point about getting improved faint; I’m really starting to think about it… With improved faint I can disarm someone a LOT easier.
I’m going to noodle on this for a bit…..
You can trip unarmed but I think it provokes an attack of opportunity, unless you have improved unarmed strike.
No.
All trips provoke, unless you have Improved Trip. Tripping with unarmed strike just doesn't let you drop the weapon if you fail by 10+ instead of being counter-tripped.
Also remember you never provoke if they are flat-footed.
For your Charisma - put in a 13, plan to bump it at 4th. It's just not worth the 2 points for that 14.
How about:
Str 12 (2)
Dex 16 (5+2race)
Con 12 (2)
Int 13 (3)
Wis 14 (5)
Cha 13 (3)
Take Agile Manuevers and Selective Channeling at 1st. Use disarm or trip against flat-footed opponents, and channel when there's only one hurt enemy alive, in range.
Str will give you +1 to hit (and dam) at 1st level, Weapon Finesse isn't that good b/c you can't afford a masterwork light shield (you get shield armor check penalty to attack rolls with Weapon Finesse). So you'll have that 19 AC at 1st level, and can worry about shield check penalty later.
Should be glorious!
@ Majuba
You dont think the low wisdom will hurt my spell casting at all? I was planing my first stat bost to go to wisdom (pushing it to 16 from 15)giving me a +1 to my DCs as well as a extra spell.. it's not much but being a caster with some realy good direct effect spells (Bestow Curse for example)I thought the +1 DC from widome would be worth it.
But I do like you stat setup..
I was woundering, did they change it that you get retroactive skill points when you boost your Intellegance? If not, its not worth putting points into it as you level.. the 13 would be better served on con.
I really don't think it would hurt your spell casting. Most of it will be self-only, and a +1 DC change *really* isn't that big a deal. Not nearly as big a deal as say, +1 hit/dam from Strength.
And yes, int change retroactively *does* give you skill points. But the 13 was more for qualifying for combat expertise (for improved trip/disarm).
I really don't think it would hurt your spell casting. Most of it will be self-only, and a +1 DC change *really* isn't that big a deal. Not nearly as big a deal as say, +1 hit/dam from Strength.
And yes, int change retroactively *does* give you skill points. But the 13 was more for qualifying for combat expertise (for improved trip/disarm).
Noodle I must... I think I have a plan/build now.. I will be posting soon... (need to get work done first)
@ Majuba
You dont think the low wisdom will hurt my spell casting at all? I was planing my first stat bost to go to wisdom (pushing it to 16 from 15)giving me a +1 to my DCs as well as a extra spell.. it's not much but being a caster with some realy good direct effect spells (Bestow Curse for example)I thought the +1 DC from widome would be worth it.
But I do like you stat setup..
I was woundering, did they change it that you get retroactive skill points when you boost your Intellegance? If not, its not worth putting points into it as you level.. the 13 would be better served on con.
Yes they did change that, so intelligence is now retroactive.
And as to the Charisma thing, as you said, its a +2 on skills. At first level, that helps. But at later levels, with charisma boosting items, the gap narrows. As for the NPC's...well, what happens if your charisma is 14 and it says 15? I can see where your coming from, but thats an adventure design issue, not a game mechanics issue.
Like I said, I'm just trying to throw some more options on the table for you, see if any might work for you =)
Oh, and on the spell thing...don't forget stat boost items there either. The +1 DC does count, but thematically, does stronger spells fit your concept as well as the other advantages of the stat build Majuba suggested?
Slight threadjack...
This brings up one of my favorite things I think alot of optimizers forget...its about the theme as much as the mechanics. I love it when someone comes up with a good concept and shares like this...much more fun than "how can we eek every last ounce of power out of this class".
I have just skimmed the thread, and I don't know if this has been covered. But how is your DM to slight house-ruling?
IMC I allow any class to drop/raise 1 level of armour proficiency (and corresponding shield prof) to increase/decrease skill points by 2 and class skills by 1. In your case (and it was better in the old days of heavy armoured clerics!) I would allow you to:
1. Only have light armour prof and also would drop to light shields/bucklers only.
2. Increase skill points per level to 4 and add one class skill (bluff, stealth, perception....)
At any point you gain prof in Medium or heavier armour you only get 2 skill points per level of cleric from then on.
This is quite balanced IMO and provides much more wriggle room for PC concepts, Like a light armour + buckler (dropped heavy and light shield prof, I house-rule leaving only bucklers) Ftr with 6 skill points
However this may not be OK, but an interesting thread :-)
Aside: this works even better in Pf than it did 3.5E 'cos it stops the 4 times skills at first level and the armour prof feat at level 3!
Slight threadjack...
This brings up one of my favorite things I think allot of optimizers forget...it’s about the theme as much as the mechanics. I love it when someone comes up with a good concept and shares like this...much more fun than "how can we eek every last ounce of power out of this class".
I know what you mean… But adventure writers really keep this in mind when they create their adventures. They fully expect your characters to be optimized and in some cases power-gamed to all hell.
When we reboot the Arcanis campaign I think I’m going to push for all of the adventures are to have “Epic” mode with better rewards (not a ton better mind you) but expecting Optimized/Power-Gamed characters and a “Heroic” mode for everyone else.
@ mach1.9pants
If this was a home game it would be a non-issue.. I'm making this character for the Pathfinder Society Campaign... So I'm using the PF book only.
@ Everyone else
I started have an idea but when I started to work it out on paper it totally fell apart... I started to get the idea of getting Greater Faint with Vital blow and becoming not only every melee fighter’s friend (and caster casting a touch attack spell) and dealing some nice damage on my own.
But the +6 BAB requirements almost killed it... The build seems to come into its own around 7th level, the BAB is harsh but with a good stat boost item I think I may be able to work around it.
Here he is...
Xavier Alister
S 12 (2)
D 16 (5+2race)
C 12 (2)
I 13 (3)
W 14 (5)
Ch 13 (3)
Skills
(*denotes skills which I will advance every level.)
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Perception
Sense Motive
Linguistics for 3 levels (learning Undercommon, Giant, Abyssal, and Draconic) then advances the above.
Level/Class / Feats
1/ Cleric(1) / Weapon Finesses, Selective Channeling
3/ Cleric(1) Rogue(2) / Improved Feint, Agile Maneuvers
5/ Cleric(3) Rogue(2) / Improved Disarm
7/ Cleric(5) Rogue(2) / Combat Casting
9/ Cleric(7) Rogue(2) / Greater Faint
11/ Cleric(9) Rogue(2) / Vital Strike
Character Traits
Charming (or Sacred Conduit both fit the characters background)
Armor Expert
Character Background
Xavier was raised on the streets, an orphan, the boy showed an exceptional grasp of divine magic, which was clearly evident, when he spontaneously cast an orison stabilizing a dying boy (who was stabbed during a botched attempt to pick a noblemen’s pocket). The event was witnessed by a Tabitha Alister a cleric of Cayden Cailean who oversaw the orphanage and quickly moved the young boy out of the orphanage and into the rectory.
During his studies he meet and feel in love with Tabitha’s daughter, Maygen Alister … and as soon as he became of age asked her to marry him… upon the completion of his studies and the tying of their vows the young couple has been let lose upon an unsuspecting world, with a wanderlust befitting a Halfling Xavier & Maygan have set out to see everything, and have fun while doing it!
(PS my wife is playing Maygen Alister - Rouge or Rogue/Mage/Arcane Trickster)
Hate to derail your build, but I think you are missing a prerequisite.
Combat Expertise is required for Improved Feint if I'm not mistaken.
i hate you
when you are rightboth improved feint and Improved Disarm are part of the Combat Expertice tree ...
I'm only half right. I missed that improved disarm was part of that tree as well.
Still, better to catch these things early rather than show up at a table and find your character isn't legal.
Wow well that just sucks, and here I thought I got eveything I wanted :o(
Well that opens up a feat on my tree... seeing that Improved Disarm is worthless without Agile Maneuvers its poinless to even get it.
Anyone have any cool ideas? something cooler then Weapon Focus (which was my first thought) maybe extra channeling, but thats soo "mhu"
1/ Cleric(1) / Weapon Finesses, Selective Channeling
3/ Cleric(1) Rogue(2) / Improved Feint, Combat Expertise
5/ Cleric(3) Rogue(2) / ????
7/ Cleric(5) Rogue(2) / Combat Casting
9/ Cleric(7) Rogue(2) / Greater Faint
11/ Cleric(9) Rogue(2) / Vital Strike
BTW Combat Expertise is such a dumb pre-req for improved feint. I rly wish they would have goten rid of a lot of the pre-reqs..Combat Expertise is one of those feats that you almost never use.
Hi all
I just wanted to thank you all.. I played the claric at Dragon*Con this weekend.. and it turned out to be a LOT OF FUN!!
One more round of blessings!!!
