I finished reading the druid class and found, to my disappointment, that you can only choose the animals listed in the book. No longer can you choose bigger and badder versions of animals like an elephant, mastodon, T-Rex, and the myriad of other animals from my D&D books. And I don't even see dire animals listed on there. No Large Bear, either? It goes up to Medium size max? This is just raising brows and we find it very lacking.
Severely disappointed with this so I think using the original rules are much better off. Anyone else find it weird also? I find it hard to believe all the playtesters agreed to this new format.
Concidering the size of the book, don't throw in the towel just yet. I would be more than willing to bet alternate animal companions will find their way into the Advanced Players Guide, when it's released.
Have you looked at the Bestiary Preview?
There's at least 2 new Companions just in the Preview (and they're Dire!)
I'm HEAVILY expecting that the Bestiary will indeed include Companion Stats for "heavy hitter" companion types like the ones you mentioned. Because Pathfinder no longer uses Monster Stats as-is, including the Companion Stats for each and every Companion in the Core Book itself would have taken up a huge amount of space. Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Bestiary includes a SIGNIFIGANTLY larger number of Companions than those listed in the 3.5 PHB.
I finished reading the druid class and found, to my disappointment, that you can only choose the animals listed in the book. No longer can you choose bigger and badder versions of animals like an elephant, mastodon, T-Rex, and the myriad of other animals from my D&D books. And I don't even see dire animals listed on there. No Large Bear, either? It goes up to Medium size max? This is just raising brows and we find it very lacking.
Severely disappointed with this so I think using the original rules are much better off. Anyone else find it weird also? I find it hard to believe all the playtesters agreed to this new format.
the animal companions increase in size as you level up, and they improve. The many of them will eventually become large size. The objective for this change was so druids do not HAVE to trade away what is supposed to be treasured companion. It just doesnt make sense that druids role play wise would throw off their companion. It should grow with them as it does in the new rules.
I'm a huge fan of animal companions (I was also one of the players on both sides who got a little overzealous during the AC discussion in beta) and I really like these rules. The writers had a tough time on their hands of streamlining druids not only with other companion classes, but with each other. And, if you look through and compare the list of animal companions with their actual monster stats, I think they did a great job of creating a unified, balanced system while maintaining the flavor of each animal.
There's limited space in this book, however, and not every animal companion possible could be included. Hell, the options I actually need for my current PF game aren't even in there. I accept that, and, judging from the bonus bestiary and the bestiary preview, we're going to be seeing a lot more options in upcoming books.
As for the bear, I agree, that's very odd. The size and stats seem way off. But, since dire animals are confirmed, I bet there will be alternate rules for a dire bear, the same way cheetah/bobcat and tiger/lion use different stats.
As for the T-rex and mammoth, I hope those pets go the way of the dinosaurs (teehee). Thematically, having a tyrannosaurus sounds really awesome. But, really, having a gigantic flipping dinosaur follow you from town to town is a bit over the top, even for D&D (plus, logistically, how are you caring for it). More importantly (as I could just limit those),a lot of the huge pets that used to exist were too powerful and created massive balance problems for a class that was already ridiculously powerful (if you want mathematical examples of the problem, look at Dennis Da Ogre's posts on the Druid beta thread). I'm not sure what you mean by "bigger, badder", but I think the great cat stats that exist now are the strongest any animal companion could ever fairly get. The only way I'd personally (I can't speak for your DM) allow huge pets is if they still had abilities on scale with the large pets, which kind of makes their size pointless.
I will say, however, that large versions of some huge animals, like the elephant (think of it as a Borneo elephant) would be pretty dandy. (I I think I'm going to end up with an elephant riding paladin in my game).
I'm in no way giving up on Pathfinder RPG because of this at all, course not. So far, this has been the only miff I have with the new rules and I think I'll just be sticking with the original 3.5e Druid Animal Companion rules.
I like the other classes, though the Bard is going to take some time getting used to. Actually, I am also giving it Song of Freedom back.
Creative Director
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There are about 24 additional animal companions detailed in the Bestiary. Theses stat blocks appear at the end of an animal's actual "For the GM" stats & description. That DOES mean that there'll be rules for tyrannosaurus companions and mammoth companions.
However, they'll not be huge or larger; that's something that we specifically steered away from with PRPG. Basically, the entire game assumes that adventures use characters of Medium size. Dungeons are built for this. Items and spells and combat assume this. Going 1 step away from Medium to Small or Large works fine, but going much beyond that changes things drastically. We very much wanted to avoid a situation where a druid or ranger's animal companion would have to be left behind because they were too big to fit in the dungeon, go on the boat, step through the portal, etc. and that meant limiting the size of animal companions. Furthermore, limiting the size also helped limit how overwhelming some of those Strength scores get for animals.
That all said, this is certainly an area for expansion. A feat or a prestige class or something like that that allows a druid to gain Huge or larger animal companions is a really cool idea, and seeing something like this show up in the Advanced Player's Guide or elsewhere as a fun and neat druid expansion is absolutely a very strong possibility. BUT! Huge animal companions are not a part of the core rules. That just doesn't mean they're gone forever.
However, they'll not be huge or larger; that's something that we specifically steered away from with PRPG. Basically, the entire game assumes that adventures use characters of Medium size. Dungeons are built for this. Items and spells and combat assume this. Going 1 step away from Medium to Small or Large works fine, but going much beyond that changes things drastically. We very much wanted to avoid a situation where a druid or ranger's animal companion would have to be left behind because they were too big to fit in the dungeon, go on the boat, step through the portal, etc. and that meant limiting the size of animal companions. Furthermore, limiting the size also helped limit how overwhelming some of those Strength scores get for animals.That all said, this is certainly an area for expansion. A feat or a prestige class or something like that that allows a druid to gain Huge or larger animal companions is a really cool idea, and seeing something like this show up in the Advanced Player's Guide or elsewhere as a fun and neat druid expansion is absolutely a very strong possibility. BUT! Huge animal companions are not a part of the core rules. That just doesn't mean they're gone forever.
Well I understand the need to bring animals into dungeons, but that's what spells and/or magic items are for like Reduce Animal or such. Also, it kind defeats the "awe" of having a T-Rex or mammoth companion if they're the size of a horse all the time. Also, a Druid can simply switch companions after 24 hours. I understand, also, the need to stick with one animal for better RP, but not everyone RPs (or does it properly, anyway).
Also, not all adventures take place in dungeons. Druids are friends of all nature, so maybe he has multiple companions. Have the Huge animal for wilderness adventures, then 24-hour switch to a companion for a dungeon adventure. One for swamps, another for mountains. It's all on the style of play a person takes a druid, but at least the options are there.
I think the high Strength is the least of problems. Enemy magic and other modes of attack can easily rid that problem (even some enemies are massively strong).
Just some thoughts, though, to consider maybe.
James, if/when you do a Feat allowing Huge Companions,
I presume you'll include a bunch of Companion Stats for Huge+ Creatures already in the Bestiary.
Do you think that going forward, you would then include Companion Stats for appropriate Huge Creatures in subsequent Bestiaries? (with the caveat "PreReq: Huge Companion Feat", Adv. Player's Guide" or whatever)
I think it's a totally fine approach, a Huge Companion is a certain kind of advantage, so having to commit one of the more numerous Feats to have a Huge Companion/Paladin Mount seems totally reasonable. (And having it outside the Core Book makes it a little easier for GMs who'd rather not have it in their game to say "no")
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well I understand the need to bring animals into dungeons, but that's what spells and/or magic items are for like Reduce Animal or such. Also, it kind defeats the "awe" of having a T-Rex or mammoth companion if they're the size of a horse all the time.
Am I the only one who had the sick thought of "Ah hah! they reduced their mammoth! One dispel magic coming up... mwahahahaahaha."
:-)
I'm having a tough time grasping the balance for these.
For one thing, I can't figure out why some advance at 4th level while others advance at 7th level.
Presumably, the ones that take longer to advance are supposed to be more powerful, but that's not balanced at all. It means that some are more powerful for levels 4, 5 and 6 while the others are more powerful for levels 7 and beyond.
And there are also outliers (for instance, the ape gets +8 str as a 4th-level boost, though they don't get the pounce attack like some of the 7th-level advancements).
...Imagine, not every creature having Pounce...
If you think another Companion is better at your current level, it only takes one day to call a new Companion.
Wasn't the point of the rewrite to make that unnecessary, though?
Am I the only one who had the sick thought of "Ah hah! they reduced their mammoth! One dispel magic coming up... mwahahahaahaha."
:-)
Bwahahahaha... You are an evil person, I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
The image of a T-Rex completely filling a 10'wide hallway makes me all happy. Feed the clan for a year.
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Creative Director
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The reasons for why some advance at 4th level and others advance at 7th usually has to do with size changes. There are other mitigating factors as well; there's no secret formula to apply to determine when and where one advances.
And none of the animal companions detailed in the Bestiary break the "Large is as big as it gets" rule. Even T-rexes, mammoths, and rocs. Huge animal companions are something for another book, along with things like new cleric domains, new arcane schools for wizards, new bloodlines for sorcerers, and other non-core but fun expansions to the game.
That image doesn't make me happy at all. I picture him making a thunderous, dejected groaning sound, his tiny vestigial arms scratching at the floor.
=(
The reasons for why some advance at 4th level and others advance at 7th usually has to do with size changes. There are other mitigating factors as well; there's no secret formula to apply to determine when and where one advances.
And none of the animal companions detailed in the Bestiary break the "Large is as big as it gets" rule. Even T-rexes, mammoths, and rocs. Huge animal companions are something for another book, along with things like new cleric domains, new arcane schools for wizards, new bloodlines for sorcerers, and other non-core but fun expansions to the game.
Yes, but in all cases the size advancement means a big increase in power. Why wouldn't you choose a level for that power-up and balance all options to be appropriate for that level, like with everything else in the book?
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Creative Director
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Yes, but in all cases the size advancement means a big increase in power. Why wouldn't you choose a level for that power-up and balance all options to be appropriate for that level, like with everything else in the book?
Because all animals are different, and because we wanted to build in a lot of differences to model that fact. Otherwise we could have just had 2 options: a "4th level advancer" and a "7th level advancer." That starts to get into the generic and flavorless boring game options that plagued d20 Modern's "Fast heroes" and "Strong heroes" and isn't the direction we want the PRPG to go in.
I meant having them all advance in different and balanced ways, but doing so at the same level (i.e, either everyone grows at 4th level or everyone grows at 7th).
Was the distinction between early-bloomers and late-bloomers made to increase variety? It seems like no other elective powers work that way when it can be avoided; all sorcerer bloodlines, wizard schools, etc. grant new abilities at the same levels, which seems like a good idea as the variants are balanced against eachother at every level of play.
It seems like this would just encourage you to switch to an early-bloomer at 4th-level and then back to a late-bloomer at 7th.
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There are about 24 additional animal companions detailed in the Bestiary. Theses stat blocks appear at the end of an animal's actual "For the GM" stats & description. That DOES mean that there'll be rules for tyrannosaurus companions and mammoth companions.
However, they'll not be huge or larger; that's something that we specifically steered away from with PRPG. Basically, the entire game assumes that adventures use characters of Medium size. Dungeons are built for this. Items and spells and combat assume this. Going 1 step away from Medium to Small or Large works fine, but going much beyond that changes things drastically. We very much wanted to avoid a situation where a druid or ranger's animal companion would have to be left behind because they were too big to fit in the dungeon, go on the boat, step through the portal, etc. and that meant limiting the size of animal companions. Furthermore, limiting the size also helped limit how overwhelming some of those Strength scores get for animals.
That all said, this is certainly an area for expansion. A feat or a prestige class or something like that that allows a druid to gain Huge or larger animal companions is a really cool idea, and seeing something like this show up in the Advanced Player's Guide or elsewhere as a fun and neat druid expansion is absolutely a very strong possibility. BUT! Huge animal companions are not a part of the core rules. That just doesn't mean they're gone forever.
Neat!
Also, I've hoped that Awaken would serve as a dual purpose spell, the first function of the spell being what it currently is, and the second a 1 hour/level version that can be tagged unto one's animal companion... any possibility this type of thing could be addressed in the said expansion? I play a druid PC and one of the constant frustration with the class is the inability to communicate complex matters to your pet, and vice-versa (because let's face it, a hawk animal companion is worth diddly in a fight, and is much better suited as a scout... and an awakened hawk companion could feed a lot of info back to the party, in Common no less! :) )
(although I now realize that Awaken is effectively a great way to gain a second animal companion; it effectively "freezes" the stat of your current animal companion and you can now gain a new "upgradeable" one; e.g. 15th level druid awakens his hawk animal companion, so hawk keeps the same 15th-druid-enhanced stats AND gains int, cha, 2 HD, and languages.... THEN druids gets a slick 15-druid-enhanced dire lion the next morning for combat purposes; he now has a talking hawk and a non-talking giant lion... not bad...)
I'm a little perplexed on how I would handle "dismissing" a long-time animal companion.
If we're treating it as any other NPC, then common narrative sense says that it would still be the druid's friend. Especially if it is awakened.
But I don't want to give a druid too many free allies.
I don't see how that's fundamentally different than Leadership...
(i.e. attract a new Cohort, but use Diplomacy to keep the other one around anyways. Never seen it happen)
I'm a little perplexed on how I would handle "dismissing" a long-time animal companion.
If we're treating it as any other NPC, then common narrative sense says that it would still be the druid's friend. Especially if it is awakened.
But I don't want to give a druid too many free allies.
An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
Still prohibits awakened ACs in the spell.
If only it was broken... it would be SO broken! :-)
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I'm a little perplexed on how I would handle "dismissing" a long-time animal companion.
If we're treating it as any other NPC, then common narrative sense says that it would still be the druid's friend. Especially if it is awakened.
But I don't want to give a druid too many free allies.
An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.Still prohibits awakened ACs in the spell.
The thing though is that if you read the spell carefully, the awakened animal stays with you as long as you want, if you treat it good... only if you cast awaken again (on a different animal) do you lose your awakened buddy... this means you can awaken your animal companion, in its current extra HD state, THEN summon a new animal companion BECAUSE the awakened animal is NO LONGER your animal companion.
Neat, n'est-ce pas? :)
Where do you read that dismissed animal companions keep the bonuses they had when they were your companions. Being your companion is not only about friendship, you can do that with wild empathy. It is a magical link that goes away once the relationship ends.
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So I am curious why you can't have your long term animal companion, dismiss it for a while and get another, then dismiss the new one and call the old one back?
Did I miss something in the rules that says you cannot do this?
For RP purposes I wouldn't consider it "dismissing" the companion. If you have a mammoth companion I am pretty sure it would not be real comfortable dungeon delving. And as a Druid you're supposed to be a friend to all animals, so why not call your other friend the bear to go for the underground adventure. When you're done with the dungeon delve your mammoth buddy is there (within 24 hours distance) waiting for you to see how it went and listen to your adventures.
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Where do you read that dismissed animal companions keep the bonuses they had when they were your companions. Being your companion is not only about friendship, you can do that with wild empathy. It is a magical link that goes away once the relationship ends.
But where does it say the link is not reestablished when the animal is resummoned?
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At the risk of committing one of those D&D argument fallacies, I will say I house-ruled this. I had a player in my game who had cheesed a huge damage dealing camel jockey, lance wielding build. I let him contact his old wolf companion when we hit a delve.
It's about fun, and I didn't think the player would have fun completely emasculated underground.
Where do you read that dismissed animal companions keep the bonuses they had when they were your companions. Being your companion is not only about friendship, you can do that with wild empathy. It is a magical link that goes away once the relationship ends.But where does it say the link is not reestablished when the animal is resummoned?
My comment was directed at the guy that wanted to abuse the animal companion rules to get access to really powerful awakened servants.
As for your comment, I agree with you. I see no problem in the druid contacting old companions if those are within 1 day range. Although they need 1 day to call them, those animals cannot move supernaturally fast to get there in time.
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The only time I allow a dismissed Companion / Familiar to retain abilities gained from Companion / Familiar status is if the Druid / Sorcerer / Wizard dies and the critter survives, and even then it's not a 'rule' so much as a 'plot event' that happens when I want it to happen.
Such former Druid companions or 'ex-Familiars' might go on to be the source of urban legends about 'animal kings' or 'super-intelligent monkey criminal masterminds.'
The thing though is that if you read the spell carefully, the awakened animal stays with you as long as you want, if you treat it good... only if you cast awaken again (on a different animal) do you lose your awakened buddy... this means you can awaken your animal companion, in its current extra HD state, THEN summon a new animal companion BECAUSE the awakened animal is NO LONGER your animal companion.
Neat, n'est-ce pas? :)
I would suggest that the animal is no longer your animal companion it loses the abilities which are an extension of your character class. Regardless *shrug* that's between you and your GM. Best case is an NPC animal that is friendly to the party who is willing to 'serve you in specific tasks or endeavors'. It's all what your GM is willing to put into it.
My take on this is that the druid is already controlling one animal companion, plus either wild shaping and in combat or casting spells. Adding another character under that players control isn't entirely fair to everyone else at the table. In my eyes as a GM that's how I see it. But maybe the fighter has leadership and has 2-3 NPCs which he influences also. The wizard is a summoner... etc. Just depends on the situation. I don't like players monopolizing table time and run my game that way.
So maybe a 'friendly' former animal companion is willing to help the druid but not risk life and limb on a consistent basis.
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Adding another character under that players control isn't entirely fair to everyone else at the table. In my eyes as a GM that's how I see it. But maybe the fighter has leadership and has 2-3 NPCs which he influences also.
And there's the answer, IMO. If the Druid wants to awaken a bunch of animals and have them as permanant allies, he can buy Leadership, or even perhaps a variation on 'Undead Leadership' that affects his animal buddies instead of undead.
That sort of commitment to a large group of allies should be an investment of time and energy that the Druid should pay for like anyone else.
So I am curious why you can't have your long term animal companion, dismiss it for a while and get another, then dismiss the new one and call the old one back?
Did I miss something in the rules that says you cannot do this?
Not that I know of. Regardless, if you have Simba and go on a water adventure so you bond with Flipper then return to land and dismiss flipper... The lion you summon will certainly have the same stats Simba did. As a GM I wouldn't care whether you said "it's Simba" or just summoned a new one.
Of course maybe Simba got a life, knocked up a couple lionesses and settled down into lion retirement.
One thing I found both funny and weird is that a druid can have large size lion/tiger and wolf but can only aquire medium size bear. Hope we can see larger size bear compainions in the bestiary.