My major gripe with 3.5/Pathfinder (as opposed to 4E) is that if you want to have a competent healer in the party, someone is forced to play a divine character. What I would really like to see in any possible future PFRPG splatbooks is a base class which is non-divine but equal to the cleric in its healing capability. The Bard can provide a passable arcane healer, but they rely so heavily upon magic items to fill the role that it begins to become a major gold sink throughout the course of the game.
Idea I've done:
Rieki Adept:
Rieki Adept
************************************************** ***********
HD: d8
BAB: average
Fort: Good
Will: Good
Ref: Good
Skills: Climb, Acrobatics, Heal, Knowledge(arcana, religion, history), Sense motive, Perception, Swim, Craft, Diplomacy, Profession, Survival
Skill Points: 4 + Int Mod (x4 at first level)
Weapon Proficiency: Staff, Club, Sling
Armor Proficiency: None
************************************************** ***********
Level --- Ability
1 --- Unarmed Strike, Stunning Blow, Healing Touch, AC Bonus
2 --- Divine Grace
3 --- Divine health
4 --- Improve Ally
5 --- Ki Strike (Magic)
6 --- Remove Affliction
7 --- Reduce Opponent
8 --- Restore Body
9 --- Masterful healing
10 --- Bestow Affliction
11 --- Diamond Body
12 --- Death Ward, Fortifying Touch
13 --- Diamond Soul
14 --- Envigorating Touch
15 --- Quivering Palm
16 --- Enervation Strike
17 --- Timeless body
18 --- Restore to Life
19 ---
20 --- Perfect Self
************************************************** *****************
Unarmed Strike --- The Rieki Adept gains this feature with the damage increases the same as a monk. The Rieki Adept does not gain the Flury of blows ability.
Stunning Blow --- The Rieki Adept gains this feature in the same manner as the monk. In addition everytime the Rieki Adept gains one of the following abilities he gains another use of his stunning blow ability: Healing Touch, Improve Ally, Remove Affliction, Reduce Opponent, Restore Body, Bestow Affliction, Fortifying Touch, Envigorating Touch, Enervation Strike, and Restore to Life. Activiating any of those abilities expends a use of the Rieki Adept's Stunning Blow ability (i.e. A first level rieki adept with a wisdom of 10 has 3 uses of stunning blow per day, he uses his healing touch ability which counts against 1 of those uses so now he has 2 left for that day.)
Healing Touch --- The Rieki Adept as a standard action may spend 1 stunning blow attempt to touch himself or an ally and restore HP equal to an unarmed strike damage roll, he does not add his strength to this roll instead modifying it with his charisma (i.e. a first level Rieki adept would restore d6 + CHA mod HP).
AC Bonus --- Same as the monk ability.
Divine Grace --- Same as the paladin ability.
Divine health --- Same as the paladin ability.
Improve Ally --- As a standard action a Rieki Adept may use a stunning blow attempt to touch himself or an ally and boost either STR, CON, or DEX by half of his unarmed strike dice size for a number of rounds equal to his Rieki Adept level (i.e. at level 4 a Rieki adept has a d8 unarmed strike dice so he would boost an himself or an ally by 4 points for 4 rounds).
Remove Affliciton -- As a standard action a Rieki Adept may use a stunning blow attempt to heal himself or an ally of 1 of the following conditions per stunning fist attempt spent (only 1 attempt per round means multiple afflicitions take multiple rounds). Blindness, Deafness, Disease, Poison, Paralysis, or Fear.
Reduce Opponent -- As a standard action a Rieki Adept may use a stunning blow attempt to deal ability damage to a STR, CON, or DEX by equal to half of his normal damage roll without any other modifiers with a melee touch attack (i.e. A level 7 Rieki Adept makes a melee touch attack rolls his d8 gets a 6 and does 3 points of ability damage to either his opponent's STR, CON, or DEX).
Restore Body --- As a standard action a Rieki Adept may spend 1 stunning blow attempt to touch himself or an ally and restore Ability Damage for one stat equal to an half of an unarmed strike damage roll, he does not modify this roll in anyway (i.e. an 8 level Rieki adept would restore 1/2d10 Abiltiy Damage for one stat).
Masterful Healing --- A Rieki Adept with this ability doubles his dice roll for using healing touch to see how much damage is healed.
Bestow Affliction --- Instead of stunning a foe with his stunning fist a Rieki Adept may instead bestow blindness, deafness, a Disease from the contiagion list paralysis or fear status. A Will save DC 10 + 1/2 Rieki Adept Class level + CHA mod, negates this effect. Paralysis blindness, deafness, or fear last a number of rounds equal to the Rieki Adept's Class level.
Diamond Body --- As the monk ability
Fortifying Touch --- The Rieki Adept as a standard action may spend 1 stunning blow attempt to touch himself or an ally and bestow damage reduction equal to 1/4 his Rieki Adept level rounded down / - (i.e. a 12 level Rieki Adept would bestow damage reduction 3/- A 16 level Rieki Adept would bestow 4/-).
Diamond Soul --- As the monk ability.
Envigorating Touch --- The Rieki Adept as a standard action may spend 1 stunning blow attempt to touch himself or an ally and restore 1 negative level per stunning Fist Attempt used.
Quivering Palm --- as the monk ability.
Enervation Strike --- As a standard action a Rieki Adept may use a stunning blow attempt to deal negative levels to an opponent equal to half of his normal damage roll without any other modifiers with a melee touch attack. A Will save DC 10 + 1/2 Rieki Adept Class level + CHA mod, negates this effect (i.e. A level 16 Rieki Adept makes a melee touch attack rolls his 2d8 gets a 6 total and does 3 negative levels to his opponent if they don't save).
Timeless Body --- as the monk ability.
Restore to Life --- A Rieki adept may spend 2 stunning blow attempts to raise someone from the dead as if using a resurrection spell this takes ten minutes and total concentration during this time. If attacked while attempting this action the Rieki Adept must make a concentration check DC 17 + damage taken or lose the stunning blow attempts and fail in the resurrection. This ability must be started within 1 min of the death of the creature.
Perfect Self --- as the monk ability.
Use it if you like it. As you can probably see it's an alternative monk.
You can try the Generic Spellcaster from UA and the d20srd website. Its PfRPG, but it should work.
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Well don't run campaigns where your party is getting hurt all the time if your not going to have miracles heal them from near death?
You've never needed a divine caster, they just make life a lot easier for everyone. If you get hurt, you just need a couple of days with care to recover. Nothing wrong with that, just need to make sure the pacing is alright.
Is this a reaction to the male priest of Calistria with the specially modified armor? ;D
So what is your problem with Divine?
Don't need/ Don't want. ;D
I have a class concept that fits this perfectly. It's exactly like the Cleric with the one sole exception that they don't get their magical power from divine dieties but through an arcane source. :)
Just saying that if you don't like something, you're usually pretty free to change it.
Also, a few of us are/were working on a Witch base class that would probably fit the bill pretty well. She wouldn't be able to channel energy but other than that would be a very effective healer as long as she decides to be a "good witch". Her magic is arcane.
I have a class concept that fits this perfectly. It's exactly like the Cleric with the one sole exception that they don't get their magical power from divine dieties but through an arcane source. :)
Just saying that if you don't like something, you're usually pretty free to change it.
Also, a few of us are/were working on a Witch base class that would probably fit the bill pretty well. She wouldn't be able to channel energy but other than that would be a very effective healer as long as she decides to be a "good witch". Her magic is arcane.
I've always thought that the druid fit the "witch" feel very well. Shape changing, weather shaping, slightly heally, odd person with a feel for animals and the ability to make your life perfectly measerable... not as magical as a wizard but still able to hit most the high notes (so to speak) with an animal companion (or familiar... even trade)?
The only thing that doesn't really match is the Druid's fluff and that's easy to alter accordingly.
So what is your problem with Divine?
I, personally, have no problem with it. It's just that roughly everyone else in my gaming group hates healing. I love healing, but I get tired of playing a religious character. It severely limits my RP options if I have to worship a deity, whereas everyone else has the option of atheism or apathy.
So what is your problem with Divine?I, personally, have no problem with it. It's just that roughly everyone else in my gaming group hates healing. I love healing, but I get tired of playing a religious character. It severely limits my RP options if I have to worship a deity, whereas everyone else has the option of atheism or apathy.
One reason I really like the Healer class from the WoTC Miniatures book. No deity. Note I liked the flavor, the fluff, but the crunch was very limited. The class wasn't all that much fun to play, unfortunately. I would like to see a PFRPG version of the Healer, a non-clerical class that's focused on healing. One with a fixed spell list (that get's updated if new spell books come out), or else one that acts like a sorcerer (spells known) but can only pick spells that have the [Healer] type, or spells that repair damage or restore things to a previous state.
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So what is your problem with Divine?I, personally, have no problem with it. It's just that roughly everyone else in my gaming group hates healing. I love healing, but I get tired of playing a religious character. It severely limits my RP options if I have to worship a deity, whereas everyone else has the option of atheism or apathy.
Adopt a Planescape-ism. Play a Cleric of the Athar. A devout atheist.
That, or an archivist from Heroes of Horror. Basically, a divine spellcaster with a prayer book ala the wizard's spellbook, who has no pre-requisite faith in any god. You don't need to believe, just say your prayers properly and presto, magic.
Check out the new Pathfinder Companion for Qadira.
It contains the Daivrat PrC which allows choosing a new known spell each time you prepare spells/rest/meditate, which is treated (ala Metamagic) as if 1 Spell Level higher, or 2 Spell Levels higher if not on the character's spell list (Daivrat's can be based off any Caster Class).
I could see a Bard-Daivrat very capably taking advantage of this for healing purposes, their normal spells known of course able to be used for Healing spells, healing spells that ARE on their spell list but they don't want to use a known spell for are just +1 SLA, and Cleric spells not on their list are at +2 SLA (but are lower Spell Level on the Cleric list than on the Bard list, which may mitigate the SLA). Then add scroll & wand access to Bard list healing spells, or Cleric list as well if you have a good UMD.
You're definitely not going to out-heal a (Good) Cleric with their Channel Energy and Cure Substitution, but you CAN make sure your party has access to those Cleric spells that are life-savers.
Bard isn't necessary for this PrC, I just used it because they already have some Healing spells on their list, and thus can use Wands, Scrolls, etc without UMD investment. Depending on how it turns out in the final rules, I'd imagine the Celestial Bloodline Sorceror combined with Daivrat could also be an interesting combo for this role...
(definitely buy the Qadira Companion if you liked al-Qadim back in 2nd Edition. the Daivrat is basically a Sha'ir PrC, but that actually works well)
I've always thought that the druid fit the "witch" feel very well.
......
The only thing that doesn't really match is the Druid's fluff and that's easy to alter accordingly.
Considering the number of Druidic sects, whether given some "crunch" treatment (Feats, etc) or just introduced in background story material,
in just Pathfinder/Golarion Campaign Setting, not to mention EBERRON...I'd say alternate takes on the Druid "fluff" are practically "Core"...
The Dragon Shaman eventually (6th level) gets a double-strength lay on hands ability....and at higher levels can burn points of that to remove afflictions (sickened, stunned, blinded, negative levels, etc.).
And they have an aura (that they can choose at level 1) that provides Fast Healing to all who have less than half their maximum hit points.
So it's a decent healer in a pinch. Plus you can breathe fire.
EDIT:
I also came up with a Hedgewitch class, a kind of anti-warlock.
Hedgewitch
Alignment: Non-evil.
BAB: +1/2 (as wizard)
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal,
Knowledge (arcana, history, local, nature, religion), Profession,
Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Survival, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier
Hedgewitches are proficient in all Simple Weapons. They are
proficient in Light Armor but not with Shields.
LEVEL ABILTIY
1. Healing Touch 1, Least Invocations
2. Healing Touch 1d3, Detect Magic
3. Create Potions
4. DR 1/-
5. Healing Touch 1d4
6. Lesser Invocations
7. DR 2/-
8. Healing Touch 1d6
9. Energy Resistance 5
10. DR 3/-
11. Healing Touch 1d8, Greater Invocations
12. Medicinal Mastery
13. DR 4/-
14. Healing Touch 1d10
15.
16. DR 5/-, True Invocations
17. Healing Touch 1d12
18. Energy Resistance 10
19. DR 6/-
20. Healing Touch 1d20
Healing Touch (Sp). As a standard action, the hedgewitch can attempt
to heal damage. The hedgewitch must touch the recipient and make a
DC 20 Heal check. If successful, the hedgewitch restores the amount
of damage listed based on her level.
Invocations (Sp). The hedgewitch learns a few spell-like abilities
as she grows in power. At 1st level, she knows 1 invocation. She
learns an additional invocation at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15,
16, 18, and 20. Beginning at level 6, she can choose to learn Lesser
Invocations; at level 11 she can learn Greater Invocations; and at
level 16 she can learn True Invocations.
Detect Magic (Sp). The hedgewitch can use Detect Magic at will.
Create Potions (Ex) Beginning at level 3, the hedgewitch can make
healing potions. She can make a potion that duplicates the effect of
a Conjuration (healing) spell. The spell level must be less than or
equal to half her class level. Creating a potion takes 1 day and
requires a successful Profession (herbalist) skill check with a DC of
20 + the spell level + minimum caster level of the spell.
Damage Reduction (Ex). Beginning at 4th level, the hedgewitch can
resist physical attacks. She gains DR 1/- at 4th level, and it
increases by 1 for every 3 additional levels gained.
Energy Resistance (Ex). At 9th level, the hedgewitch chooses two
types of energy (acid, cold, electrical, fire, or sonic). She gains
resistance 5 against those 2 energy types. At level 18, the
resistance increases to 10.
Medicinal Mastery (Ex). At 12th level, the hedgewitch becomes so
confident in her ability to perform her tasks that she can always
choose to take 10 in a number of class skills equal to 3 + her
Intelligence modifier, even if distractions or circumstances would
not allow this.
Invocations.
Invocations are spell-like abilities the hedgewitch can use at will
as a standard action. Unless otherwise noted, they have a duration
of 24 hours. Some invocations affect her Healing Touch ability and
either alter the area of effect or add an additional benefit to the
Healing Touch ability. Invocations have an equivalent spell level
equal to 1/2 the hedgewitch's class level. The save DC is 10 + 1/2
the hedgewitch's class level + her Charisma modifier.
Least Invocations:
Baleful Entanglement (as the Entanglement spell, plus those in the
area of effect are sickened until they escape and for 1 minute
thereafter)
Lifeguard (Deathwatch + Shield Other)
Healing Ray (by succeeding on a Ranged Touch attack, the hedgewitch
can affect a target within 60 feet with her Healing Touch ability)
Medicinal Touch (add the hedgewitch's Wisdom bonus to her Healing Touches)
Refreshing Touch (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch also removes the
Fatigued and Sickened Conditions, as well as 1 point of Ability
Damage or Penalty)
Safe Passage (the hedgewitch grants herself or one ally she touches
the benefits of the Pass without Trace spell and the Sanctuary spell.
It only affects 1 creature at a time)
Saving Grace (the hedgewitch grants herself or one ally she touches a
bonus on a single type of Saving Throw equal to her Charisma bonus
(but not more than her class level). It only affects 1 creature at a
time)
Lesser Invocations
Cleanse the Blood (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch also removes any
Disease or Poison from the target)
Clear the Senses (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch also removes any
Blindness, Deafness, Confusion, Dazed, Dazzled, Paralysis, or Stunned
effects from the target)
Consume Magic (as Dispel Magic + subject heals 2 hp per spell level dispelled)
Healing Line (the hedgewitch affects all targets within a 60 foot
line with her Healing Touch)
Illuminate (Daylight + Invisiblity Purge)
Lesser Vigor (as the spell)
Peaceful Light (Calm Emotions + Faerie Fire)
Renewal (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch removes Exhaustion,
Nauseated, 1 Negative Level, and 1 point of permanent Ability Drain)
Secret Garden (Create Food & Water + Rope Trick + Nondetection)
Whispers (Silence + hedgewitch gains benefits of Divination spell)
Greater Invocations:
Devour Magic (as Warlock invocation)
Healing Cone (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch affects all targets
within a 30 foot cone)
Hidden Health (Death Ward + False Life)
Thornshape (as Tree Shape spell + class-based DR is x2, gain Fast
Healing 5, and opponents attack with non-reach melee weapons or
natural attacks take 1d6 + 1 point of damage per class level of
piercing damage from thorns)
Uncoil (Atonement + Break Enchantment + Raise Dead with DC 40 Heal check)
Vigor (as spell)
True Invocations:
Garden of Delights (Heroes' Feast + Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion)
Greater Vigor (as spell)
Healing Circle (Healing Touch affects all within 20 feet)
Holy Ground (in 20 foot radius around hedgewitch are the benefits of
Hallow and Holy Aura)
True Life (Greater Restoration + Regeneration & True Resurrection
with DC 40 Heal check)
Is this a reaction to the male priest of Calistria with the specially modified armor? ;D
Thanks alot, Lord Fyre! Now I'm going to have to put out my mind's eye!
So what is your problem with Divine?I, personally, have no problem with it. It's just that roughly everyone else in my gaming group hates healing. I love healing, but I get tired of playing a religious character. It severely limits my RP options if I have to worship a deity, whereas everyone else has the option of atheism or apathy.
There are several solutions to religionless healers.
First and foremost, there's the cleric that follows an ideal rather than a god. Simple, straightforward. There are no temples to the ideal of Confidence or Chivalry or Purity or even Goodness, nor any creeds, commandments, or vows related to them.
Then there's the Healer from the Minis Handbook. As mentioned, a very bland class that really can't do much BUT heal, but they have no religion requirements.
Archivists have also been mentioned. Again, "divine" spellcaster that has no religious requirements. As a bonus, Archivist is available for free in its entirety from WotC's website as part of the Heroes of Horror preview.
Going a bit farther afield, there's the Alchemist from AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures. It casts 'spells' by brewing 24-hour duration potions (done over the course of an hour in the morning, same as normal spellcasting) and has access to all the healing spells as temp potions. The downside here is that the people you heal have to use their own actions to heal themselves -- fine for downtime, tricky in battle.
Those are the most direct solutions to the predicament. There are others, too, that go about it in a more roundabout fashion (dragon shaman, eldritch disciple PrC, etc).
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I honestly don't see why a "witch" couldn't just be a sorcerer with a homebrew bloodline. Let's call it the "Witchcraft Bloodline" and say that it represents the witch as seen in popular media of the last 30 years (as most D&D classes do). They get a couple of cleric or druid spells as their bonus sorcerer spells and Knowledge (nature) as their bonus class skill. Voila! Done!
Heck, I might even try a full write-up of this when Pathfinder comes out in two weeks. (Well, that and the Psychic bloodline that I've been thinking about for a while now.)
Jeremy Puckett
I honestly don't see why a "witch" couldn't just be a sorcerer with a homebrew bloodline.
It can...very easily.
I've always thought that the druid fit the "witch" feel very well.
...
The only thing that doesn't really match is the Druid's fluff and that's easy to alter accordingly.
And so can the Druid...and the Warlock (with the right invocations)...and maybe even the Beguiler. It was suggested but some were still wanting a core Witch class. Mine actually used a lot of druidic abilities that fit the more traditional witch archtype. Looks like the person who started the thread is going a different direction with it though.
So what is your problem with Divine?I, personally, have no problem with it. It's just that roughly everyone else in my gaming group hates healing. I love healing, but I get tired of playing a religious character. It severely limits my RP options if I have to worship a deity, whereas everyone else has the option of atheism or apathy.
There's your problem: The people you play with are selfish jerks ;-)
You don't have to play every priest the same. You don't have to roleplay them even similarly.
A cleric of Cayden Cailean is a lot different from a cleric of Asmodeus, a cleric of Serenrae is a whole different animal than a cleric of Calistria.
The PF campaign setting has 20 major deities, and that's just the start: You have dozens of minor deities, a whole lot of godlike creatures like archfiends or -angels, philosophies you can devote yourself to, and beyond that there's ideals.
And that's just for the cleric. There's also Paladins and Druids.
And don't forget the Bard.
And not every priest has to be equally religious. And religious isn't the same as religious. Some proselytise, some lead by example. Some just have a strong conviction of their own ideals.
Beyond that, don't underestimate the power of customisation! If you don't want to play another cleric, but are stuck with the healer role (I was only half joking when I ranted about your fellow players: Don't feel you have to martyr yourself just because no one else can be bothered. Play what you want. One TPK later someone else might agree to play something else), consider asking for some trade:
Play a bard, but give up, say, bardic knowledge for a paladin's lay on hands.
Play a druid who can spontaneously cast cure spells instead of summon spells.
Play a celestial bloodline sorcerer who gives up evocation spells but gains healing spells in return.
The rules aren't set in stone!
Thanks alot, Lord Fyre! Now I'm going to have to put out my mind's eye!
Is this a reaction to the male priest of Calistria with the specially modified armor? ;D
Glad to be so service. ;D
Seems like Kaeyoss and some others said almost everything I wanted to say.
The only thing I want to add is that I wish Paizo addressed the 15-minute day problem (with healing) in Pathfinder. Although I dislike many parts of 4E, Healing Surges (with a bit of redesign) were a good idea and made healerless parties possible, which is a good thing imho.
My major gripe with 3.5/Pathfinder (as opposed to 4E) is that if you want to have a competent healer in the party, someone is forced to play a divine character. What I would really like to see in any possible future PFRPG splatbooks is a base class which is non-divine but equal to the cleric in its healing capability. The Bard can provide a passable arcane healer, but they rely so heavily upon magic items to fill the role that it begins to become a major gold sink throughout the course of the game.
I agree. Also, a bard can't really do the job. Actually, few besides a cleric can actually do the job of removing conditions well and at the levels where the conditions come into play. Druids get a lot of the same spells, but usually at a later level. Bards sometimes get them (e.g., freedom of movement), but it's a higher cost for the bard to cover everyone in the party than it usually is for the cleric.
I'd really like to see something that can functionally replace the cleric, but is neither a cleric or, as you mention, even necessarily divine. It's more than just paying for a bundle of wands of cure light wounds.
Since I do not have the final rules yet I am going from speculation and what has been revealed so far. Given the changes in allictions (disease and poison) I get the impression the role of healer may me more necessary than before. In a poison rich world I expect the cleric to load up on delay poison and neutralize poison as heroes feast does not provide immunity any more. Sure channel positive energy can help with the hit point issue but afflictions will be much more of a concern. Just a feeling I have as we move towards a Pathfinder future.
So what is your problem with Divine?I, personally, have no problem with it. It's just that roughly everyone else in my gaming group hates healing. I love healing, but I get tired of playing a religious character. It severely limits my RP options if I have to worship a deity, whereas everyone else has the option of atheism or apathy.
There are dieties of apathy...a bard can main heal, it might not be optimal but frankly a druid main heal isn't as effective as a cleric either.
Druids can main heal fine if they have access to the Spell Compendium (for the Vigor line). Bards simply can't. They don't have enough spells per day or a fast enough spell level progression. The only time a bard will be good enough as a primary healer is if you're playing an "infrequent combat" campaign (ie, one that's mainly political, or a detective-style campaign, etc). In any campaign where you're getting into multiple combats a day, the bard is going to come up short with regards to healing.
They make great secondary healers, mind. They just aren't suited to be the one-and-only.
Druids can main heal fine if they have access to the Spell Compendium (for the Vigor line). Bards simply can't. They don't have enough spells per day or a fast enough spell level progression. The only time a bard will be good enough as a primary healer is if you're playing an "infrequent combat" campaign (ie, one that's mainly political, or a detective-style campaign, etc). In any campaign where you're getting into multiple combats a day, the bard is going to come up short with regards to healing.
They make great secondary healers, mind. They just aren't suited to be the one-and-only.
I agree. I played a druid from level 1-16 as the primary healer in a combat heavy game, and it worked out ok.
I also DMed for a game where a small bard was both the primary healer AND the primary tank. It was also a combat heavy game, but they were often in trouble. (The fighter/rogue was a kenku crossbow specialist with 6 Str and Con. There was also an Empowered Awakened Parrot Wizard, and a homebrew skill-based magician with pistols....that didn't max out ranks in Spellcraft...)
I think you've hit on a generally poorly executed concept - that of the arcane healer. Especially in 3e (with these spells classified as a Conjuration [Healing] effect) this is certainly a very viable solution.
A viable solution to this in PRPG terms would be most welcome, as there are at least a few who would prefer, for personal reasons, to play a non-divine healer.
EDIT: I think what may be the situation here, for those that do not really want to play clerics - mainly for the personal reasons above - is that they would happily play the "Healer Role" if there was any other solution in-game for it.
An arcane healer won't be as good as a cleric, even if they have the cleric's spell list, BAB/HD, saves, et al. Remove the commune-type divinations, channeled energy and spontaneous casting and you have a workable Healer. Change casting type from divine to arcane, and you have a core class missing a few abilities to pick up the slack. I'm not sure what would plug the holes though...
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I actually introduced a feat into my games to combat this problem a bit. In a nutshell it allows characters to heal themselves a number of times per day.
A quick note; I let my players pick up a new feat at every level instead of 1st, 3rd, and every 3 thereafter so I have feat chains a bit more prominent in my game (dodge gives an 'always on' bonus and can be taken up to five times, for example).
Anyways, here's the feat:
Prerequisite: Con 11+
Benefit: Once per day as a swift action you may restore 1d8 + your level hit points to yourself. Upon reaching level 4, 6, 8, and 10, add an additional 1d8 points of healing to the damage restored.
Special: This feat can be taken up to five times. For each additional time taken after the first, you gain 1 additional use per day of this feat (to a maximum of 5/day after having taken this feat five times).
It allows healing at a reasonable rate (a little slower than that garnered by a cleric, but at no cost) and its being used as a swift action allows melee characters to stay in the thick of things and hack away while they heal themselves.
Definitely makes the party less healer dependent, though they sometimes have to ration their uses. In addition to the above, I also have a series of feats based around the heal skill (Heal Light Wounds, Heal Moderate Wounds, Heal Serious Wounds, and Heal Critical Wounds) that allows a character to heal 1, 2, 3, or 4d8 points of damage once every 8 hours on a target. A healer-less party is definitely harder to play than one with healers, but it's definitely doable and there's a reason to have a character specialized in the heal skill in the party.
The sad truth is with the number of healing powers the clerics gain (which is only increased with PFRPG) expecting anything else to fill the role will require alot of work.
Unlike the cleric, they may require alot of non-core feats and to really focus on it, and even then, a standard, non-specialized cleric will be able to fill the role just as easily (unless they just happen to be evil). This is also partly why I hate channel energy, and to a lesser extent, the cleric class as a whole.
First and foremost, there's the cleric that follows an ideal rather than a god. Simple, straightforward. There are no temples to the ideal of Confidence or Chivalry or Purity or even Goodness, nor any creeds, commandments, or vows related to them.
Sorry, I know it's an option, but never one I would use. You're essientally surgesting using a preist class, but not playing a priest. It would, to me at least, asking to play a wizard but RPing the spell's as just somthing the mage does (like instead of launching magical energy, Magic Missle is simply the chaarcter picking up stones and throwing them with extreme accuracy). While it's an option alot of folk like, to me, it just feels like such a cop-out.
As for the other classes mentioned, well, as I said, compared to the standard cleric (which has less healing capabilities than the PF version) nothing can match the healing power. Even the Healer class cannot cast healing spells spontainiously. When factoring in Channel Energy as well, this also provides the cleric with an additional reserve. Remember as well, that this is just any good aligned cleric, one who specializes in healing will be substantially more powerful.
Which means if a healer decides to prepere some Restoration spells, they can't be traded out no matter how much an additional heal might be needed. Ditto for the archivist (and well...if you stick to just healing spells, you're really wasting the potential considering the classes strength relies on them taking spells from multiple lists).
Uhm, Bard? Healing spells as an arcane caster. It's already been done!
There's a difference between having healing spells and having it as a role. If a party member were to say...take leadership and have a cleric cohort, despite being lower level than the party the cleric could fill the role miles better, just for the amount of healing it's capable of.
Lets not forget the Favored Soul. While they are still somewhat restricted to deity, there is absolutely nothing that says they have to be a fan of or even like that deity.
This, to me personally, also feels like a bit of a cop-out. I admit I'm likely to really be the only person that beleives this, but I think a favoured soul should have some degree of beleif, and heres why...
In any setting, each god is going to have a fair number of followers. Why gift those who don't like you and aren't likely to follow your teachings when theres plenty of better, more obeident candidates? Besides, how would a favoured soul learn of it's powers? You don't know your've got artistic talent until you try to be artistic, why should a favoured soul know of any clerical gifts unless he/she receives some sort of training? (It even says in the favoured soul entry that these natural powers usally awaken when the favoured soul receives his/her inital clerical training.
In fact, it even implies that they do not have any natural talent until they begin their training). And again, if you dislike a god, why would you train to use their powers? If I hated a god of death because I had a beleif that death is unfair to those in life, why would I use the death powers granted by the god?
To the OP: My surgestion would be to do one of a few things...
A: Use alternate rules or some such, such as the reserve points form Iron Heroes, to either limit the need for healing or to grant another means of providing it.
B: Homebrew a healing focused class or up an existing class (such as the healer). Personally, if you go down this route, I might go as far as to grant the class somthing besides healing (such as anti-undead powers) in order to make the choice more appealing.
C: Provide alternative class features or other options for existing classes, such as maybe giving the bard the Healing Hymm feat for free (or similer, homebrewed feats), though this in itself may require some work.
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Perhaps the deity that you do like and agree with is not the one granting you those powers. . .
I think most people think like you do about the Favored Soul, I just think it is a little more interesting to go with a different approach. There is nothing in the discription or rules that says this can't happen, only the alignment spell restrictions.
As a bonus, Archivist is available for free in its entirety from WotC's website as part of the Heroes of Horror preview
!!!LINK!!!
2 suggestions!
1) An option we found to be quite balanced is just to do a simple spell-list swap out. Play a sorcerer with the cleric's spell list instead of their own, and it plays fine. At least, it did in our games. And with all the new Pathfinder bloodline powers, you should still have a bit of the tradtional magic about your character, too.
2) Play a paladin. Seriously, with a maxed out Charisma, you can do some serious healing! I know it's not quite the "non-divine" requested in the thread title, but it is an option.
I don't think you're alone in wanting an answer to this problem, over the years there has been a lot of demand for a decent healing class, who isn't a cleric. I think the problem is, though, that it is what the cleric does best, so a non-cleric healer is stepping on someone's toes.
If you can get your hands on the Paizo Dragon Compendium, you could also try a Sha'ir. I'm itching to play one myself, but don't know anyone who's given it a go. But they can heal, if you don't mind waiting while your Gen fetches the spell for you.
Peace,
tfad
Faster-than-normal healing is one of the "requirements" of a game like D&D. Even amazingly in-shape real humans would be laid up for months at a time if they went on the adventures that D&D characters do.
The ways to solve this problem are relatively few:
1) "Magic" - This include divine/arcane/etc here. This is the standard solution, and works well in fantasy worlds. D&D has traditionally gone with divine being the only healer, but that's a matter of fluff more than anything else.
2) Science - A poor choice for D&D, but throw in some hyposprays and nanomachines and you have quick healing that isn't "magic" (but might as well be).
3) Cinematic - 4e uses this with healing surges. One of Monte Cook's house rule books also had a rule like this. I've heard of other RPGs doing this as well. Basically, when you lose HP, you're not being seriously injured, just banged up a bit. Rest up for a few minutes and you're back to full. Only when you get *really* low are you getting stabbed and having bones broken.
#2 is probably out for most D&D games, and #3 requires that you adhere to a different set of game physics, so you're probably stuck with #1. If you don't want to be a divine healer, you're still going to have to do it with magic, so the primary difference is just going to be fluff.
One possible way to mix things up would be to define new "power sources" for the magic. To use 4e terms, you could have a divine healer, a primal healer, a shadow healer, etc. In the end, it comes down to restoring lost HP with spells, so the game mechanics don't have too much flexibility.
Perhaps the deity that you do like and agree with is not the one granting you those powers. . .
I think most people think like you do about the Favored Soul, I just think it is a little more interesting to go with a different approach. There is nothing in the discription or rules that says this can't happen, only the alignment spell restrictions.
True, but the only other way I can realisticly see someone gaining such powers (And yes, before anyone says anything, I know it's fantasy, that doesn't mean it should exclude internal consistancy or hint's of realisim) would be via celestial/fiendish bloodlines, which is already covered by other mechanics in PFRPG.
And while it's possible for the favoured soul to gain powers from a god unknowingly, that in itself can have some problems. For one, the god who the character actually does worship, I don't see simply lying there. That's one thing that does generally seem consistant in any mythology, no god likes to be blammed for somthing they havn't done or have someone else receive the praise for somthing they have done (In fact, the first of the ten commandments just happens to be "I am the Lord your god, you will worship no other gods than me", which to me, surgests that praising other gods over him/her is what "God" dislikes the most).
There may be other problems as well...for instance, if the god actually providing powers is evil, then the favoured soul may sense somthing's amiss when any spell with the "Good" descripter cannot be cast by him, but Blasphemy and Unholy Blight seem to come off without problems.
Though I admit, the idea of a cleric/divine character of any sorts receiving powers from a different god can be interesting, but only if the issues that may crop up can be countered (such as what I mentioned before and well...the big question, I.E why the other god is doing this and why that particular person?)
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Perhaps the deity that you do like and agree with is not the one granting you those powers. . .
I think most people think like you do about the Favored Soul, I just think it is a little more interesting to go with a different approach.
And there is different a approach implied in Complete Divine. Outsider blood runs in their veins from holy/unholy alliances.
As for not favoring your deity, that's an easy one to explain. Lamashtu was bored.
I agree. Also, a bard can't really do the job. Actually, few besides a cleric can actually do the job of removing conditions well and at the levels where the conditions come into play.
Paladins can now, thanks to mercy.
With a bit of work, other classes can, too.
I'd really like to see something that can functionally replace the cleric, but is neither a cleric or, as you mention, even necessarily divine. It's more than just paying for a bundle of wands of cure light wounds.
Healing/curative magic is very closely associated with the divine in Pathfinder. It has a long history of being that way.
The bard loosens that a little bit, but there won't be anything that can outheal the cleric, arcane or devine or psionic or anything. That's the cleric's thing (well, that and becoming a melee god himself and slaughtering indiscrimately).
In a world where the power of the divine is REAL and Manifest and divine wrath is a fact of history and not merely myth and legend, only the insane, the idiotic, or the unbelievably dense can afford to be apathetic or atheistic when it comes to the divine.
I know an agnostic Knight of the Cross who would disagree.
Sorry, I know it's an option, but never one I would use. You're essientally surgesting using a preist class, but not playing a priest. It would, to me at least, asking to play a wizard but RPing the spell's as just somthing the mage does (like instead of launching magical energy, Magic Missle is simply the chaarcter picking up stones and throwing them with extreme accuracy). While it's an option alot of folk like, to me, it just feels like such a cop-out.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all, but you're free to believe what you want.
As for the other classes mentioned, well, as I said, compared to the standard cleric (which has less healing capabilities than the PF version) nothing can match the healing power. Even the Healer class cannot cast healing spells spontainiously. When factoring in Channel Energy as well, this also provides the cleric with an additional reserve. Remember as well, that this is just any good aligned cleric, one who specializes in healing will be substantially more powerful.
This is where you fall into a trap of your own making. This thread isn't about making another healer as efficient as a cleric. No one's under any illusion that any other class is as efficient as clerics are at healing. This thread is about having viable alternatives to having a religion-based healer. All the classes I mentioned are viable alternatives to having a religion-based healer. I know because I have run or played in standard campaigns that used each of them as solo healers.
I know an agnostic Knight of the Cross who would disagree.
I'll be honest, I have to disagree here. Think of how religious people in RL are...despite not having any difinitive proof that such powerful beings exist?
Then take any D'n'D setting where the gods aren't ambigious (I.E, just about every single setting), the effect should be amplified. In RL some people blow themselves up, because they beleive that their gods in the next world will reward them. When warrior-preists march into battle they are considred especially deadly, simply because they show far less hesitation to fight and kill than others. The beleif that somthing exists and will reward your efforts can drive people to do just about anything.
Now think how a setting would fit if people didn't just beleive, but knew for a fact that they were doing their god's bidding and liable to receive appropraite rewards in their afterlife. In all honestly, I think aetheists and agonostic characters would actually be hunted down and extremely rare in such a setting.
This is where you fall into a trap of your own making. This thread isn't about making another healer as efficient as a cleric. No one's under any illusion that any other class is as efficient as clerics are at healing. This thread is about having viable alternatives to having a religion-based healer. All the classes I mentioned are viable alternatives to having a religion-based healer. I know because I have run or played in standard campaigns that used each of them as solo healers.
But if the alternative healers aren't as effective as the cleric, what's the point? The cleric will still be the "must-have" option for healing, and I was under the impression the OP is looking for somthing to fill it's place, an alternative.
I've also seen other classes trying to take on the healing role, and they usally fail unless the classes receive some sort of house-ruled bonus or the cleric is changed (usally by using the PHB 2 varient and not using PF channel energy).
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Now think how a setting would fit if people didn't just beleive, but knew for a fact that they were doing their god's bidding and liable to receive appropraite rewards in their afterlife. In all honestly, I think aetheists and agonostic characters would actually be hunted down and extremely rare in such a setting.
Just because you know something more powerful than you exists does not mean you are obligated to worship it, even if it insists that you do. An agnostic or atheist in a Pathfinder-type fantasy setting isn't likely to argue that gods don't exist or that divine magic isn't potent - they would just refuse to equate a god's existence with the god's right to worship. Consider, for instance, that a 20th level efreeti sorcerer - or heck, a simple human who makes into epic levels - might actually have a chance to kill a lesser god. Does such a character's power render it worthy of worship? And if it isn't power that determines whether something should be worshipped, what is it that gods have that nobody else does that means everybody else should worship them?
Just because you know something more powerful than you exists does not mean you are obligated to worship it, even if it insists that you do.
To be fair, that, at the bare minimum, means Aetheists can't exist.
An agnostic or atheist in a Pathfinder-type fantasy setting isn't likely to argue that gods don't exist or that divine magic isn't potent - they would just refuse to equate a god's existence with the god's right to worship.
Which is why I also feel such people would be extremly rare/mad.
Consider, for instance, that a 20th level efreeti sorcerer - or heck, a simple human who makes into epic levels - might actually have a chance to kill a lesser god. Does such a character's power render it worthy of worship? And if it isn't power that determines whether something should be worshipped, what is it that gods have that nobody else does that means everybody else should worship them?
Well for one thing..planes, remember that the gods can control their home planes, meaning that if a LG person wishes to go to LG heaven, antagonizing the rulers of such a place isn't the wisest choice. Again, to compare to RL, it would be like someone expecting to go to/enjoy the catholic version of heaven...even if they hate God and do not worship him.
Besides, threat or no, the epic level sorcerer still is pretty powerless before a god. Since, as shown in Deites in Demi-Gods, each god can only grant spells they know, most (if not all) gods already have about 20 cleric levels, and thats before adding class levels, of which most gods have about 20 or more. Even if the god does have to face such a sorcerer directly (which they wouldn't normally, since they already have servents dedicated to fighting for them) a typical god would still quite heavily come out on top. Being epic just means a character can hurt a god, killing one is a whole 'nother bag of tricks.
I'll be honest, I have to disagree here.
I know an agnostic Knight of the Cross who would disagree.
You cannot disagree. It's a fact.
"I'm German"
"I disagree"
"I'm so tired right now"
"I disagree"
"I'm agnostic"
"I disagree".
Just doesn't work that way.
To consider, From PFRPG Beta:
Play a Ranger, max out your ranks in the heal skill, buy a healing kit (or get the party to buy one or five!) combined with Skill Focus (Heal) feat, Self-Sufficient Feat and negociate with the GM to get a +5 compet. on heal check magic item at some point (a ring or something similar) and use Treat Deadly Wounds (part of the heal skill in Beta) with Long-term care and you might go very far without divine healing.
Also make sure to get the barbarian to get the Renewed Vigor power, the rogue to get the Resilency Talent, the bard to get some healing spells in his selection and the fighter to get some DR asap. Spread the load!