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I am considering playing either a Wizard or a Sorcerer when we start the new Thieves Council AP and I'm curious about which class people prefer and why? Basically, help me decide which one to play :)
Along that same line, I know the general feeling seems to be that if you are going to play a Wizard or a Sorcerer, the most ideal race to be (from a game standpoint, NOT a roleplaying standpoint) is probably either a human or an elf. So, what are some thought on this as well?
Oh, and speaking of trying to choose between a Wizard or a Sorcerer, I have not ruled out the idea of playing a multi class Wizard / Sorcerer. I know that might not be ideal from a pure power gaming standpoint, but it is an interesting option I haven't ruled out. Any thoughts, pro or con on playing a multi class Wizard / Sorcerer?
Of course, some ideas may change once the core book come out, especially if the Wizard and / or Sorcerer have any significant changes from the Beta ...
Thanks everyone !!!
On a pure power gaming level the wizard is generally thought to be a bit more powerful, in particular under the old specialization system. We'll see on Wednesday what specialization looks like under PfRPG, it will be interesting since it changed twice under Alpha/ Beta. Most likely it will probably look closer to the 3.5 version than either of the test versions... but that's just a gut feeling.
Pathfinder Sorcerer is IMO a little closer to the wizard in power but it is still likely to lag a bit. Even so the sorcerer does have a few more spells known and abilities than previous and most of them are interesting and fun. I like the sorcerer a lot, it's a fun class to play and required less prep time per session and less decision making overnight. Because sometimes you just want to pick up your character sheet and play.
Elves are great for wizards but if you want a sorcerer gnomes, halflings, and humans are all great. Elves are decent too if you are going to have to deal with SR but elves don't have a bonus to charisma.
I think multi class wiz/ sorcerer is a dead end. You fall behind in spell progression way too fast.
If you have splat books available the Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage might make a multi class wizard/sorcerer more likely.
My opinion is that if you are looking to focus in on what you want to do with your magic, and supplement something else with it, sorcerer is good.
However if you want actual versitility then go wizard. Maxing out your Int isn't really needed either unless you want to through a lot of save throws around. There are plenty of good spells that don't need a save throw (for various reasons, summon monster for example) at all levels and if you focus on buffs, summons, and utility maybe with some rays thrown in for actual damage when you need it then you can start with an INT of 15 just fine (gives you an INT of 19 by 16th level if you put your level adjustments into INT).
A possible wizard keeping this in mind could be:
Halfling: (25 point buy)
Str 5 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 15 Wis 14 Cha 10
HP 7 Fort +4 Ref +4 Will +5 AC 14 Melee -3 Ranged +3 Init +3
If you have splat books available the Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage might make a multi class wizard/sorcerer more likely.
That is a class that you really have to know the meta-game/ munchkiny stuff to make work well, it's either pretty powerful munchkined out or mostly blah with tons of low level spells and nothing else exciting.
I agree, wizard is the versatility king. If your DM lets you buy up spells you can cover every contingency.
Personally though I kind of think sorcerers are a little more fun but that's all subjective.
Generally, wizard is more powerful provided you're going to have a fair bit of downtime (because wizards can know far more spells and, especially in Pathfinder with the XP costs removed, make magic items of said spells to mimic the on-the-fly versatility of sorcs) but requires far more bookkeeping. I prefer sorcerer because of that.
And don't go multiclass wizard/sorc without being able to use Ultimate Magus. Really, I wouldn't even then, but especially not without. You'll fall behind in your spell progression so fast that you'll be woefully underpowered by the middle of the campaign at the latest.
In my household it is a matter of play style for the preference, really.
I prefer the sorcerer, having a set number of spells I've handpicked and can use at will for whatever the situation is and calls for. I like the flexibility and freedom from prepicking my spells and having to agonize over which ones and also coordinating with the other casters so that we don't wind up with identical spells that are not as useful (detect magic as a cantrip or orison, for example, do you really need all casters in the party to have that one prepped?)
My husband prefers the wizard :) He loves having all the possible spells at his fingertips (and usually spends as much cash as he can afford to gain additional spells whenever he can). He feels constrained by having a limited number of spells to choose from, and prefers that monster piles of spells to pour over and pick from daily.
We have many friendly arguments about this, each understanding the other's view to a certain amount, but still preferring our faves :)
As to race, I don't determine class based on that, I go for roleplaying and what the character is wanting. In the three campaigns I'm in, I play a half-elf sorcerer (Runelords), a friend plays a gnome sorcerer (Second Darkness), and my husband has a human wizard (Crimson Throne).
Both are great classes, and as I said at the start, I think it's more a matter of play style than anything. Good luck and have fun with your choice!
All the previous post hit the nail right on the head... especially Dennis da Ogre. If your going to multiclass Sor/Wiz than the Ultimate Magus PrC is all but a must, but you have to build carefully and know where your going. It is potentially the most powerful PrC in print... or one of the weakest, depending on how you build.
For sheer number of spells per day, the sorcerer can't be beat. Personally, I've discovered that once you hit level four you almost never run out of spells anymore. Also you'll find yourself so intimately familiar with your spells known that they're all but an extention of your person. They come so naturally. Ad that to the fact that you never have to worry about preparing the wrong spell six hours ago to deal with the current, very unanticipated situation and the sorcerer becomes very appitizing. Last, there's nothing like being able to cast the same spell over and over. When you really need to, you can use all your spells slots... and then all your next one level higher spell slots... and then all your next two levels higher spell slots... and then (you get the picture) on the same spell! Magic Missile suddenly becomes very dangerous!
The wizard is the master of versatility. With the largest spell list out there, and the potential to learn everything on it, the wizard usually has the answer to any problem. The problem is which spells to prepare each day? If you make a wizard for heaven's sake use Scribe Scrolls! Make at least two copies of every utilitarian spell you have (and remember that you can put more than one spell on a single scroll). Leave your prepared spells for offensive, protection and "emergency" (like Feather Fall) spells. And geting higher level spells at a quicker pace than the sorcerer doesn't hurt much either. The wizard is casting fireball at level five! Everybody duck!
But all these points have been made already, and you probably know it all anyway. A more important question (to me anyway) is flavor. What kind of character do you want to play?
A wizard, no matter what, and regardless of background, is going to be a learned, studious character. It doesn't mean you have to a librarian. And you can be a wild, "fly by the seat of your pants", fun loving character. But whether your character likes it or not, he's smart. Very smart. And not only that, he likes to read. It's almost like an addiction. He may be proud of it or ashamed of it (insert ogre wizard here), but he can't help it... he loves it. His class abilities require prep time (both morning spell prep and scroll scribing) and that's part of his personality as well. He likes alone time... preferably without distractions.
The flavor of the wizard's magic is different as well. You have no magic. Repeat, you have no magic. The way you wield magic is a cross between a detective and a slave master. All of your magic is collected and taken from an outside source, altered and manipulated by your spells and foci, and cast free only when you see fit. In the end, there is no harm done (at least, according to wizards). The magic is returned to where you "borrowed" it from when the spell is complete and cast. But in the end, you are havesting it, molding it, holding it and then releasing it. It's not yours.
The sorcerer is a charismatic individual. And both those words hold so much truth. He doen't have a choice but to be charismatic. Even if disguised, he will draw people to him like moths to flame. When he talks people pay attention. When he stands up to go to the bathroom people notice. And he is an individual. His is alone. He will never feel like he truely fits in. Even if surrounded by other sorcerers of the same bloodline, he will feel, at least slighty, alone. But that loneliness pushes him into interaction. He may pretend to be a "dark and booding" loner, complete with back cloak and hood, never talking. But he can't stay away from others anymore than they can stay away from him. On the other hand he may embrace it; be the friendliest character in history. But he will always be somewhat seperate... mysterious.
The flavor of your magic is almost that of a curse. You've got it and are using it whether you like it or not. It comes as natural as breathing. It's in you. It's part of you. It's in your blood; your flesh. It's mixed into your very soul. And it's yours. It belongs to you by birthright. Magic bubbles forth from deep within you like a frothing, overheated cauldren. Once you learn how to focus it through your spells you may release it as you wish. And Lord help who gets in the way.
Hope that helps! Like I said, IMHO flavor is at least as important mechanics (if not more important). And the sorcerer and wizard have very different flavor in addition to different rules.
Choose the one you like and go with it! And above all else, have fun!!
(P.S. I expect you to chime back in with your decision. :D)
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A Wizard and a Sorcerer will generally come from different places, thematically, in a 'Council of Thieves' type situation.
A Wizard is more likely to be well-educated, more likely to be endebted to trainers and mentors (and perhaps an academy) and more likely to be in constant need (or at least want) of resources and finances and opportunities to add new spells to his collection, whether by wresting them from others, negotiating favors with other arcanists or just buying them normally. The wizard is more likely to have social ties to other wizards, including mentors, teachers and fellow students and apprentices, with possible rivalries, bad blood or even romantic entanglements remaining from these earlier 'training days.' (A young wizard who had a May/December romance with a world-wearied professor is one option. Just avoid going all Harry Potter and having the former student have a *heap* of social ties and entanglements from the former academy!)
A Wizard is also more likely to come from a family of some means, as their education does not come cheap. Does the wizard still owe their family for paying their way through the academy? Is the young wizard expected to devote some time to using his craft on behalf of family interests, or to assist at the academy?
A Sorcerer is more likely to have 'power in the blood,' and have an inherent sense of superiority (or, in other cases, a fear and distrust of their own unsuspected arcane heritage!). Adventuring will be more about seizing and manipulating the power already inherent in their own blood (or learning to control it, represented by gaining experience). Finding tomes of arcane lore will be generally meaningless to a Sorcerer, who has other reasons to adventure. Perhaps she feels the need to 'prove herself' to her ancient ancestors, to feel worthy of their power. Perhaps he feels that his infernal ancestry is a taint, but that he must 'fight fire with fire' by mastering the infernal power that pollutes his blood, rather than allow infernal urges and impulses and dark powers to master him instead. While Sorcerers don't necessarily have to even know another Sorcerer to have unlocked the power in their blood, it's possible that another Sorcerer of similar bloodline is in town, seeking to prove themselves *more* worthy of unlocking the power of that ancient lineage than the player character (or even suffering under the delusion that they must slay all pretenders to that ancient power to progress their own, in an 'There Can Be Only One' sort of way). Alternately, one could derive inspiration from the fighting kung-fu schools, and have a Sorcerer of a different bloodline show up, to prove that *their* bloodline is the superior one, either out of strictly competitive reasons (my dragon-fueled blood burns hotter than your watery fey trickery!) or out of a natural adversity between the two bloodline sources (the visions have led me to you, oh fiend-tainted one! The holy might given to me by my celestial blessings will strike you down!).
A Sorcerer also has the unique potential of not merely being untrained, but of having gained their power unnaturally, as a result of exposure to great magical forces. A common lad mucking out a stable might fall through the floor into a long-forgotten necromancer's hidden abattoir, and be so infused with necromantic forces from shattering the Soul Crystal within that he becomes a 1st level Sorcerer with the Undead Bloodline. That sort of thing comes with it's own adventure hooks. Is that ancient necromancer still alive (or, more likely, still in existence, as an undead), and does that ancient necromancer want to take back the energies of the destroyed Soul Crystal, by sacrificing the impudent pup who ended up the unwitting inheritor of those dark forces?
Wow, Set. Fanatastic point about how some sorcerer's gain their power through "alternate means". I had forgotten completely about that.
Thanks!
Wizard allows you to be a utility mage, which isn't really possible with a sorcerer. Utility casting is the province of using spells creatively, which is one of the most fun parts of being an arcane caster.
Arcane casters are defined by their spell selection and use, and for sorcerers, spell selection is even more vital
Personally, I prefer small casters. Combat-oriented classes are enormously hampered by being Small, but arcane casters are not at all. The +2 Dex/Con and +1 to attack and AC also compensate traditional caster weaknesses, and the +2 Cha in the Beta is great for sorcerers.
Wizards don't have to be wealthy, educated elitists; they could as easily be tutored by a gnome hedge wizard in a small village. Possibly coping with the disdain of better-educated peers and the innate ability of sorcerers.
Lots of things depend on your play style and campaign. We usually tend to have a very fast-paced campaign, with little time for item creation. As well as DMs that like capturing the party and taking away their gear, so Eschew Materials and Spell Mastery are solid defensive choices. If you have lots of combat encounters in a day, they may play differently. I've thought that (pre-PF), sorcerers have been more rewarding to play at low levels.
The best part about a Wizard is they are diverse. They can do at least 2 very important things:
1) They are good at making magic items
2) Their spell list is huge
If you were playing scenarios in organized play, item creation feats aren't allowed so #1 (and part of #2) is moot. Scenarios don't allow much rest that I've seen so Wizards can't adapt so #2 is moot as well. Hopefully in the full game they will give Wizards the opportunity to be able to cast some spells spontaneously if they choose a feat.
Also, intelligence doesn't matter for skills as much as it did previously, since skill points past level 1 are not modified by your INT. CHR can save your life with skills such as Diplomacy.
Also, there are certain spells which are almost universally good and Wizards must often pick spells like Sorcs because they can't take a chance on a rare occurence. In scenarios, spell diversity isn't important because there Wizards can't create scrolls/potions/wands to deal with strange situations. In APs this skill is crucial.
So the answer to your questions is: Based on overall effectiveness it's a better idea to pick a Wizard for the Council of Thieves AP. Sorc is still a good choice if that is the character you wish to roleplay. And Sorc is better for Pathfinder scenarios as well.
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Wizards don't have to be wealthy, educated elitists; they could as easily be tutored by a gnome hedge wizard in a small village. Possibly coping with the disdain of better-educated peers and the innate ability of sorcerers.
Oh, that's quite true, I just meant that they were more *likely* to be from a class of person able to afford to send their children off to a private tutor, or arcane academy.
It's equally possible that a noble family could have sorcerous blood, and consider that a sign of the nobility inherent to their bloodline, and look askance at those grasping Wizards, forced to study until their eyes bleed to ape the arcane mastery that comes as a birthright to those of proper breeding.
For every assumption, it's equally possible to turn that assumption on it's head, and create entirely new role-playing opportunities, as with the hedge wizard you mention, whose 'spell book' might be a sheaf of notes cobbled together by diverse hands over generations by a packrat family of similar 'hedge wizards' or a town's 'village arcanist,' passed down from doddering old hedge wizard to brash young apprentice.
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I enjoy playing Sorcerers. They lack a lot of flexibility at the beginning that a wizard has, but at higher levels and with the proper meta-magic feats you can have a reasonably large pool of spells. That...and well you can use all those wizard scrolls even if you don't know the spell.
You tend to have to think more creatively with what you have, since you can't just open your book and think of something more specifically useful. Things like calculating what the distance is you can travel by burning all of your higher level spells spots using Dimension Door because you don't know how to cast Teleport, or just how long you can keep a party of 6 horses hasted.
I don't think they're particularly better, though the Pathfinder RPG versions seem to be more interesting then their 3.5 counterparts what with pre-included bloodlines as opposed to a huge series of feats.
There was a nice amount of fun I had in Living Greyhawk with my sorcerer as DM's and other players who didn't adventurer with me regularly would just assume automatically I had certain spells. I had a DM asking me when I was casting Mage Armor and False Life, and then look completely confused when I didn't have either spell. Being able to tell the party you absolutely can't do something is actually kind of empowering. :)
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They have their pro's and con's and others have covered them pretty well.
But in my experience which is more powerful often depends on the campaign being run. Yes a wizard is more flexible, if they guess right what will be useful ahead of time. Which often depends on how the game is run.
Also it depends if the group ever has down time to research new spells or acquire new spells, plus time to create scroll along with the gold.
In some games i have seen wizards load heavy on dmg spells cause they know they can always use them, which made the Sorc more flexible. Since they can cast any of their spells known and really at most they need one dmg spell per level.
So for me which one I would recommend would depend a lot on the how the campaign will be run. Unless you are just doing it for concept, then it doesn't matter.
Well it is 6am local time so hopefully this makes as much since as it did to me at the time I typed it.
There was a nice amount of fun I had in Living Greyhawk with my sorcerer as DM's and other players who didn't adventurer with me regularly would just assume automatically I had certain spells. I had a DM asking me when I was casting Mage Armor and False Life, and then look completely confused when I didn't have either spell. Being able to tell the party you absolutely can't do something is actually kind of empowering. :)
That's a really interesting point. With sorcerer, you get to define exactly the role you want.
I think a sorcerer would be secretive about his powers, because he doesn't want his enemies to know his entire playbook. A wizard, on the other hand, can afford to bluff by making a point of being seen always casting the same type of spell, only to change his repertoire when his enemies arrive. A deck with more cards makes the preparation for a wizard duel a bluffing game. The sorcerer's option to burn the same spell repeatedly is something like a brute force hammer by comparison and gives the sorcerer a tactic unavailable to the wizard (unless he crafts a wand). Depending on how the rules for counter-spelling work, the sorcerer's ability to burn the same counter spell repeatedly may give him a decisive advantage over the wizard.
Also, intelligence doesn't matter for skills as much as it did previously, since skill points past level 1 are not modified by your INT.
Wait, what? Is this something from final that I haven't heard? As far as I can tell in the Beta that my group has been playing with you still get your int modifier in skills at each level.
A wizard who could only max out ranks in a single knowledge skill and spellcraft would be a complete gimp.
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Also, intelligence doesn't matter for skills as much as it did previously, since skill points past level 1 are not modified by your INT.Wait, what? Is this something from final that I haven't heard? As far as I can tell in the Beta that my group has been playing with you still get your int modifier in skills at each level.
A wizard who could only max out ranks in a single knowledge skill and spellcraft would be a complete gimp.
I actually did a double take on that as well! As far as I knew, you still add your INT bonus (if any) at every level, not just at 1st level.
Oh, and thanks everyone for the great discussion! I think I may be leaning toward a Human Sorcerer ...
Assuming this ... anyone have any thoughts or opinions on which bloodline? I really like the Arcane bloodline, mainly because I'm dying to try out the Arcane Bond ability. I also like the Elemental bloodline and the Dragon bloodline ...
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Also, intelligence doesn't matter for skills as much as it did previously, since skill points past level 1 are not modified by your INT.Wait, what? Is this something from final that I haven't heard? As far as I can tell in the Beta that my group has been playing with you still get your int modifier in skills at each level.
A wizard who could only max out ranks in a single knowledge skill and spellcraft would be a complete gimp.
I actually did a double take on that as well! As far as I knew, you still add your INT bonus (if any) at every level, not just at 1st level.
Oh, and thanks everyone for the great discussion! I think I may be leaning toward a Human Sorcerer ...
Assuming this ... anyone have any thoughts or opinions on which bloodline? I really like the Arcane bloodline, mainly because I'm dying to try out the Arcane Bond ability. I also like the Elemental bloodline and the Dragon bloodline ...
Arcane Bond isn't as powerful for the sorcerer as it is for the Wizard. It basically gives you a floating spell slot so you can cast any spell where you've run out of spell slots (probably your highest level spell to double dip). This is very nice (And the ability to enchant it without feats is very nice as a multiclass wizard in out campaign is finding with his custom +1/+1 Quarterstaff of Burning Hands, Feather Fall and Endure Elements), but for the Wizard it lets them cast any spell they know in their spellbook once per day and so it is much more useful as it can be used for a wider array of spells.
Also be aware that the DM isn't doing his job if someone doesn't at least ATTEMPT to steal it off you occasionally, and that caster level penalty hurts when that happens.
Also, intelligence doesn't matter for skills as much as it did previously, since skill points past level 1 are not modified by your INT.Wait, what? Is this something from final that I haven't heard? As far as I can tell in the Beta that my group has been playing with you still get your int modifier in skills at each level.
The Beta does suggest the Int nerf claimed by Jason S:
At first level, your character gains a number of skill points dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier.
...
At each level after 1st, you gain a number of skill ranks dependant upon your class.
Since the skill point table seems to suggest business as usual, and since I could think of no reason why Int needed a nerf, I decided that this was simply bad wording and unintentional in the Beta. It seems likey that this came up on the messageboards during the playtest, so hopefully the wording has been clarified.
It would be pointless for non-wizards to assign points to Int if this was actually true.
Also be aware that the DM isn't doing his job if someone doesn't at least ATTEMPT to steal it off you occasionally, and that caster level penalty hurts when that happens.
It's funny that you say this, several of our characters got hit by a panic effect. Wizard dropped his arcane bond item. Then before he had a chance to pick up his bonded item he was teleported to another demi-plane without it and the demi-plane is where the bulk of the adventure was to happen.
When we were first talking about this feature in the beta I argued that wizards getting deprived of their focus was unlikely but now I'm starting to rethink this.
One other thing I wanted to point out.
A lot of folks talk about wizards crafting items, and scrolls and having vast libraries of spells but that's not always available. Some campaigns and GMs just don't offer the downtime to chase down spells and craft items.
This can make a huge difference in how effective a wizard can be. When I GM downtime is every few levels when things calm down and it's often hard for wizards to find other wizards who are willing to share spells or who even have the higher level spells the players are looking for. Wizards usually pick up spellbooks when they pry them from the cold dead hands of a wizard the party confronted in battle.
I'm not trying to advocate my GMing style, just pointing out that the wizard's power can vary significantly depending on the GM. You might want to talk to your GM about how much down time there will be and whether your wizard will be able to purchase spells to build his library.
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just pointing out that the wizard's power can vary significantly depending on the GM.
And that's a huge factor. A Sorcerer character is *much* less likely to get 'dicked over' by a particular style of adventure, as his power is primarily internal. He can't lose his spellbook, he doesn't have to go acquire spells, etc. Combined with Eschew Materials, he's much more likely to be able to function in an 'out of their element' situation like the World's Largest Dungeon, where a Wizard is, plainly speaking, screwed.
The vast majority of the 'overpowered wizard-as-Batman' threads over on the CharOps forums require a wizard to have access to half of his wealth by level in extra spells from a dozen different sources, and potentially unlimited crafting time to cover every specific situation.
In a game where the character is actually played, and not just created at 20th level as a thought-experiment, leaping like Athena, fully-grown and armored from someone's skull, this will almost never be the case.
However if you want actual versitility then go wizard. Maxing out your Int isn't really needed either unless you want to through a lot of save throws around. There are plenty of good spells that don't need a save throw (for various reasons, summon monster for example) at all levels and if you focus on buffs, summons, and utility maybe with some rays thrown in for actual damage when you need it then you can start with an INT of 15 just fine (gives you an INT of 19 by 16th level if you put your level adjustments into INT).
Have to disagree on INT and Summons. You must have high INT if you want to De-buff or use save-or-suck/die spells. You'll need as high a DC as possible.
Summoning spells are average at low level, and poor mid level, and pointless at high level, so avoid those!Elf spell penetration is huge. Having spells fail mid-to-high level because of SR just plain sucks.
Don't forget that a Wizard doesn't have to prepare all his spells at once. He can spend an hour during the day to fill the empty slots once he knows what he may need. This obviously isn't much use for combat that could occur unexpectedly, but is useful for added versatility in other situations.
Also, intelligence doesn't matter for skills as much as it did previously, since skill points past level 1 are not modified by your INT.Wait, what? Is this something from final that I haven't heard? As far as I can tell in the Beta that my group has been playing with you still get your int modifier in skills at each level.The Beta does suggest the Int nerf claimed by Jason S:
At first level, your character gains a number of skill points dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier.
...
At each level after 1st, you gain a number of skill ranks dependant upon your class.Since the skill point table seems to suggest business as usual, and since I could think of no reason why Int needed a nerf, I decided that this was simply bad wording and unintentional in the Beta. It seems likey that this came up on the messageboards during the playtest, so hopefully the wording has been clarified.
It would be pointless for non-wizards to assign points to Int if this was actually true.
Beta p7:
Intelligence (INT)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns
and reasons. This ability is important for wizards
because it affects how many spells they can cast, how
hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their
spells can be. It’s also important for any character who
wants to have a wide assortment of skills.
You apply your character’s Intelligence modif ier to:
• The number of languages your character knows at
the start of the game.
• The number of skill points gained each level, though
your character always gets at least 1 skill point per
level.
Also, intelligence doesn't matter for skills as much as it did previously, since skill points past level 1 are not modified by your INT.Wait, what? Is this something from final that I haven't heard? As far as I can tell in the Beta that my group has been playing with you still get your int modifier in skills at each level.
A wizard who could only max out ranks in a single knowledge skill and spellcraft would be a complete gimp.
I actually did a double take on that as well! As far as I knew, you still add your INT bonus (if any) at every level, not just at 1st level.
Oh, and thanks everyone for the great discussion! I think I may be leaning toward a Human Sorcerer ...
Assuming this ... anyone have any thoughts or opinions on which bloodline? I really like the Arcane bloodline, mainly because I'm dying to try out the Arcane Bond ability. I also like the Elemental bloodline and the Dragon bloodline ...
Arcane Bond isn't as powerful for the sorcerer as it is for the Wizard. It basically gives you a floating spell slot so you can cast any spell where you've run out of spell slots (probably your highest level spell to double dip). This is very nice (And the ability to enchant it without feats is very nice as a multiclass wizard in out campaign is finding with his custom +1/+1 Quarterstaff of Burning Hands, Feather Fall and Endure Elements), but for the Wizard it lets them cast any spell they know in their spellbook once per day and so it is much more useful as it can be used for a wider array of spells.
Also be aware that the DM isn't doing his job if someone doesn't at least ATTEMPT to steal it off you occasionally, and that caster level penalty hurts when that happens.
Or you could grab the familiar. That can be a very good choice for a sorcerer.
What you could do is make a character like I was going to. Blaster sorcerer, arcane bloodline, monkey familiar, max ranks in Use Magic device. Monkey sits on your shoulder with a wand of, say, fireball or magic missile or Enervation, uses your ranks in UMD and after a certain point almost auto-hits the dc20 to activate a wand. Pew Pew!
stuffs
Disagree on a few things still. First you only need a high DC if you want to debuff (not always then, several spells have auto effects -- see ray of exhaustion) or SOS your foe. That's all well and good, provided they are vulnerable to it.
Summon monster has several good monsters on it (something I've been over before), it only stinks if you expect them to be fighters. Of course they aren't fighters and you shouldn't expect them to be!
Good monsters by summoning level:
1 -- Fiendish Small Scorpion -- 3 attacks, improved grab, constriction, poison and tremorsense and darkvision
2 -- Lemure -- damage reduction, several good immunities, and two attacks -- Fiendish Medium Scorpion -- same as above only bigger.
3 -- Dretch -- 3 attacks, damage reduction , STINKING CLOUD (gain a third level spell by casting a third level spell!) -- Celestial Hippogriff -- 3 attacks, flight useful for taking multiple people across a chasm with 1 spell
4 -- Howler -- up to 5 attacks, and the quills are debuffing -- Lantern Archon -- 2 ranged touch attacks, (EX) bypasses all damage reduction, magic circle against evil (a 3rd level spell) free use of Aid (second level) free use of continual light (second level) damage reduction, weak will save or you can't attack it
5 -- Achaierai -- three auto hit attacks plus and insanity effect, SR (not much) spring attack, 3 attacks -- Bearded devil -- reach, infernal wound, beard, damage reduction, rage
6 -- Bralani -- Holy weapons, whirlwind form, damage reduction, wind wall, cure serious (2x) lightning bolt (2x), Blur, Mirror Image -- Chaos beast -- just hit the wizard -- Xill -- FREE PLANE WALK
7 -- Avoral -- free dimension door, dispel magic, hold person (low DC), magic circle of protection (evil) magic missile, 3x day lightning bolt, Lay on Hands (66 hp), Constant True Seeing SR 25 -- Huge Elementals -- 16 HD, damage reduction 5/- Huge Size, other abilities according to element
8 -- Lillend -- bardic music, bard spells, spell like abilities (okish) -- Greater Elementals -- 21 HD, Huge size, DR 10/- other abilities according to element -- Vrock -- Spores auto hit, Mirror Image (possibly still useful) DC 22 AOE stun
9 -- 1d3 Vrocks -- get three, dance of ruin (okish) -- Couatl -- 9th level sorcerer, free psionics -- Leonal -- Damage reduction, Lay on Hands (114 hp), Wall of Force at will, 3x neutralize poison, remove disease, cure serious 1x heal, Protective Aura, 3x day Roar (holy word + 2d6 sonic) -- Elder Elemental -- 24 HD -- Hezrou -- Chaos Hammer, Unholy Blight, Blasphemy
Now not everyone of these are always going to be useful, but several give more spell use for a limited investment, and allow that use multiple times over multiple rounds and more importantly still leave you free to do whatever else you like. In addition if worse does come to worse they are disposable meat shields, unlike your friend's fighter.
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Elf bonus to spell penetration -- Complete agreement!
Wizard saving slots -- Great idea, I rarely prepare more than 1/2 after 10th level.
Beta p7:Intelligence (INT)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns
and reasons. This ability is important for wizards
because it affects how many spells they can cast, how
hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their
spells can be. It’s also important for any character who
wants to have a wide assortment of skills.
You apply your character’s Intelligence modif ier to:
• The number of languages your character knows at
the start of the game.
• The number of skill points gained each level, though
your character always gets at least 1 skill point per
level.
Thanks Bitter Thorn. That's a relief to see it spelled out.
I prefer wizard. I like getting my higher level spells one level sooner and being able to having more spells to choose from. I almost always play a human because I am that boring but I was thinking of playing a half-org wizard for the fun if it since like humans they choose which stat they put their bonus into. If you were going to multiclass maybe half elf would be better since you get 2 favored classes...
My two cents.
I will PERSONALLY chose wizards anytime.
My uber munchkin wizard starts with one level aristocrat from the DMG. You'll find the weapons, skills and wealth options help a wizard in the long run.
The race is human but that’s a personal favorite I happen to think the free feat, extra skill points and being able to blend in with 90% of the population of the planet is cool.
If out source books are allowed then your first feat should be collegiate wizard. I think its from complete arcane or mage(not sure)anyway it may not seem like a big deal having double the free spells per level but trust me it can be a life saver. When you DM try’s to restrict this orb spell or that save or die magic from you being able to say "I got it for free at level X" because I get 4 new spells per level rather than 2 is great.
Major advice is don’t bother with meta magic until at least 10th level, at lower levels you don’t have the versatility in your casting to make them really worth it. The BEST item creation feats at low level are craft wondrous items and craft wand. Never bother with potions they front load too quick (3rd level spells MAX, is stupid)
If the spell casting prodigy feat is allowed then by all means take it at first.
If not then save your feat for IMPROVED Toughness. Don’t bother with the stupid regular toughness wait till you have a +2 fort save and go for greater. Doing this I was able to almost keep up with the fighter in HP, I had a great con and he didn’t so with this feat I was getting 5 extra HP per level, +4 con +1 feat.
If its an any feat goes type of game the pull the master linguist from ebberon, done right 1 feat = 20 free languages. That one can be taken later if you’re out of first level feats. If your human the races of destiny is a must, the human paragon and the skill options are nice.
I hope this helps and don’t worry if the other players say your not acting like a "real" wizard just say that gandolf was a ponce and then polymorph into a firbolg. Enjoy
In the past I might have said sorcerer simply because I liked the simplicity, but lately I'm realising more and more than that isn't the only major difference.
I think in any campaign featuring a cleric or druid, I'd stick with wizard. Purely becauese well...it's been irking me a little lately that despite being dedicated wholly to spellcasting, the sorcerer's spell progression is slower than the clerics and druids, even though to them, spell-casting isn't their own role avaliable.
It get's frustrating after a while when "lesser" spellcasters are using spell-slot's higher than yours despite being the same level.
One thing you mentioned is the possibility of playing as a wizard/sorcerer. Everyone immediately mentioned the Ultimate Magus from the Complete Mage. You might consider instead dipping into one class or the other for a level (usually done by specialist wizards dipping into sorcerer) instead. You'll delay your spell progression a little but eventually still get higher-level spells while gaining some extra versatility or spells per day at lower levels.
One thing you mentioned is the possibility of playing as a wizard/sorcerer. Everyone immediately mentioned the Ultimate Magus from the Complete Mage. You might consider instead dipping into one class or the other for a level (usually done by specialist wizards dipping into sorcerer) instead. You'll delay your spell progression a little but eventually still get higher-level spells while gaining some extra versatility or spells per day at lower levels.
this may be true, but by the time you get to mid-levels, how many spells are you going to get from that Sorc dip? How much would it cost you just to scribe a like number of 1st and 2nd level scrolls? A few hundred gold pieces? A thousand tops?
That's quite a bargain compared to getting your highest level spells available one or two levels earlier. Especially since most of your adventuring companions and major villains will not be similarly constrained.
Wizards have fewer spells per day, but quicker spell progression. This is the main power advantage that wizards have, since a well-chosen spell of higher level is worth more than two spells of a lower level.
Anything that slows the spell progression weakens wizards.
Also,
summoning an evil creature = casting an evil spell = performing an evil act.
Summoning fiendish creatures to fight for you is explicitly evil, much in the way that animate dead is.
The Beta does suggest the Int nerf claimed by Jason S:
At first level, your character gains a number of skill points dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier.
...
At each level after 1st, you gain a number of skill ranks dependant upon your class.
Yes, it's this quoted text that made me think that INT only affects level 1. Maybe it's just badly worded, I hope so. Still, it's not clear since it conflicts with the INT description, which one is correct? Hopefully it's more clear in the full RPG.
Yes, it's this quoted text that made me think that INT only affects level 1. Maybe it's just badly worded, I hope so. Still, it's not clear since it conflicts with the INT description, which one is correct? Hopefully it's more clear in the full RPG.
I'm pretty sure that it's just poorly worded. It would seriously mess things up and make INT a fairly worthless stat except for Wizards.
Summoning spells are average at low level, and poor mid level, and pointless at high level, so avoid those!
Keep in mind that the final version of the PFRPG has new Summoning lists.
stuffs
Disagree on a few things still. First you only need a high DC if you want to debuff (not always then, several spells have auto effects -- see ray of exhaustion) or SOS your foe. That's all well and good, provided they are vulnerable to it.
Summon monster has several good monsters on it (something I've been over before), it only stinks if you expect them to be fighters. Of course they aren't fighters and you shouldn't expect them to be!
Good monsters by summoning level:
1 -- Fiendish Small Scorpion -- 3 attacks, improved grab, constriction, poison and tremorsense and darkvision
2 -- Lemure -- damage reduction, several good immunities, and two attacks -- Fiendish Medium Scorpion -- same as above only bigger.
3 -- Dretch -- 3 attacks, damage reduction , STINKING CLOUD (gain a third level spell by casting a third level spell!) -- Celestial Hippogriff -- 3 attacks, flight useful for taking multiple people across a chasm with 1 spell
4 -- Howler -- up to 5 attacks, and the quills are debuffing -- Lantern Archon -- 2 ranged touch attacks, (EX) bypasses all damage reduction, magic circle against evil (a 3rd level spell) free use of Aid (second level) free use of continual light (second level) damage reduction, weak will save or you can't attack it
5 -- Achaierai -- three auto hit attacks plus and insanity effect, SR (not much) spring attack, 3 attacks -- Bearded devil -- reach, infernal wound, beard, damage reduction, rage
6 -- Bralani -- Holy weapons, whirlwind form, damage reduction, wind wall, cure serious (2x) lightning bolt (2x), Blur, Mirror Image -- Chaos beast -- just hit the wizard -- Xill -- FREE PLANE WALK
7 -- Avoral -- free dimension door, dispel magic, hold person (low DC), magic circle of protection (evil) magic missile, 3x day lightning bolt, Lay on Hands (66 hp), Constant True Seeing SR 25 -- Huge Elementals -- 16 HD, damage reduction 5/- Huge Size, other abilities according to element
8 -- Lillend -- bardic music, bard spells, spell...
I have to agree with your list of useful summons. I appreciate that they need to be used tactically to be effective. Too many summoners imo, can't see past the "it fights" limitations. It was to that, that I was referring!
I stand corrected!
My uber munchkin wizard starts with one level aristocrat from the DMG. You'll find the weapons, skills and wealth options help a wizard in the long run.
Pathfinder Beta Aristocrat does not start with the higher than average wealth the DMG one does, but does get MARTIAL weapon proficiency and ALL skills not Rogue-like. ALSO, it does not get the +1 BaB it got in the DMG, which is a very significant difference.
I played an Aristocrat/Sorcerer up to 10th, the Aristocrat was mostly for RP flavor, but I won't deny the weapon proficiencies & skills are awesome. Longbow has synergy with the "ray caster build"(point blank/precise shot) and you get ALL the knowledge skills bringing you a step closer to the Wizard.
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As a Sorcerer I usually go Kaboom or Buff while using Wands & Scrolls for Answers. (Answers = Dispel Magic, See Invisibility, etc.)
My uber munchkin wizard starts with one level aristocrat from the DMG. You'll find the weapons, skills and wealth options help a wizard in the long run.
Any "munchkin build" that starts with a level of an NPC class is worth some applause.
You know, a large part of the reason wizards are more versatile is the fact they get scribe scroll for free, and can learn every spell in the game. With that combination if they have any down time what so ever they can almost immediately churn out scrolls to cover contingencies without having to find someone to buy the scrolls from.
The addition of bonus feats to let the wizard expand on this roll leads to more of this with wands, wondrous items, staves, rings, et al.
The sorcerer having a limited list of spells know could create magic items... but if he does he just has more copies of what he could already do. It doesn't expand his power base per day.
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Thanks Stuart. Honestly the main use of summoning spells is an expanded spell list. Calling is even more powerful since you could conceivably get a Solar to run around healing your party after every battle for a day or so.
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Your forgetting to take into the fact especially with the outsiders that they almost always hate to be summoned. The dm I play with would make us rue the day if we summoned a fiend. The fiend would find ways to twist the instructions thus being more trouble than its worth and of course take vengence at a later date. But yeah I see the awesomness of what the summoned creatures can do, just it has to be done with extreme caution.
The fiendish codex (if you have a copy, it's a really good read!) points out that fiends of all stripes love to be summoned and generally just do as commanded. After all while summoned they can't die, can't really use up their abilities, and know that they'll go home again soon. In the mean time by readily obeying the caster they can fool him into thinking that "fiends aren't that bad" so that he'll summon and maybe even call them more. However we are rather fortunate that there are very few demons on the lists that are worthwhile, and that when summoning they really don't have any choice but to obey.
My uber munchkin wizard starts with one level aristocrat from the DMG. You'll find the weapons, skills and wealth options help a wizard in the long run.
Any "munchkin build" that starts with a level of an NPC class is worth some applause.
LOL
I spat my coffee on the keyboard, you owe me a new G15!
Summoning spells are average at low level, and poor mid level, and pointless at high level, so avoid those!Keep in mind that the final version of the PFRPG has new Summoning lists.
This is good news Ross. Maybe make the summoning characters a little tougher.
For sheer number of spells per day, the sorcerer can't be beat.
Personally, I prefer sorcerers to wizards (at least at higher levels) because I think that preparing spells is a clunky mechanic. The bloodlines I like the best are Arcane, Fey, Elemental and Destined.