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Can't wait for the book.
Have been play testing beta with friends.
In anticipation of the Greater Sunder feat, and bettering of Paladin, I have made a Paladin character, and have been asking our DM rules clarifications.
Trying to find out how he would interpret things in session out of session so as not to be annoying to anyone except for the DM.He is currently of the opinion that reach weapons can only be sundered by a non reach weapon when the person sundering is next to the person holding the reach weapon.
At the very least I feel that if I have a great sword with a ready action to sunder a lance if it charges at me I should have a chance of sundering the lance before it strikes me despite it having reach.
What do you guys think?
Specifically our DM sees the lance as being a part of the creature and therefor only occupying that 5' square and so can't be attacked except there.
Any counter points I can use?
Thank you
I would agree with the DM in general, but in the specific case of a readied action,. Id allow it. Reasoning is that in general, unless you're up close to the person wielding the reach weapon, it's too easy to move it out of the way. However, if you're holding yourself ready, it makes sense to swing out at the weapon and sunder it. However, I'd rule it a simultaneous action so you'd still possibly take damage.
I would ask, can your weapon reach where his weapon is?
Now, the actual grip in which a person holds a weapon is a detail not covered by the combat rules, but different weapons are held in different ready positions. All of them must reach you in order to strike you, of course, thus I would say the basic sundering counterattack is: if you have readied an action, and are attacked by a weapon, you may attempt to sunder the weapon being used to attack you. This includes if you, or perhaps a nearby ally you're assisting, draws an attack of opportunity!
When pressing the attack yourself, whether your enemy's weapon extends beyond his own square will depend on the weapon as he is holding it, most likely, ready to defend himself. A spear in a defensive position will probably be held point-forward. In this case, even if you cannot reach your foe, you can reach his weapon and attempt to sunder it, if you are attacking the square he faces. On the other hand, whips and spiked chains are likely to be held ready near the body, and could only be attacked by attacking the foe's square. If sundering weapons takes on a big tactical role in your campaigns, I would suggest that you and your GM look in to historical usage styles for various weapons.
As a rule of thumb for when you are on the attack, I suggest the following. If a reach weapon does piercing damage it will be held point-first and can be attacked by persons who can reach squares the foe threatens, in the direction he is facing. If it does slashing or bludgeoning damage, it is probably held ready across the body or upright, so as to swing, and so the haft must be attacked in the opponent's square.
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I think the readied action against the lance charge is a no-brainer. It has nothing to do with reach or weapon length. It's all about the readied action. If your readied action is "If he charges, I'm going to sunder his weapon", I don't care if he's wielding chopsticks, you interrupt his charge and attack first. That's a readied action.
As a rule of thumb for when you are on the attack, I suggest the following. If a reach weapon does piercing damage it will be held point-first and can be attacked by persons who can reach squares the foe threatens, in the direction he is facing. If it does slashing or bludgeoning damage, it is probably held ready across the body or upright, so as to swing, and so the haft must be attacked in the opponent's square.
I was going to jump in and agree with this, but then I remembered something. I might be wrong and I will show my age but way back in 1st ed AD&D there was an explanation about combat. While you roll one attack, it's actually a bunch of attacks, but just one (attack roll) is good enough to connect. Going by that, I see no reason why someone can't sunder a reach weapon on the theory that it's out there continuously throughout the round. Now I don't know if this explanation is anywhere in 3.x.
Personally, I'd let someone sunder anytime they want. One less thing to think about.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I think the readied action against the lance charge is a no-brainer. It has nothing to do with reach or weapon length. It's all about the readied action. If your readied action is "If he charges, I'm going to sunder his weapon", I don't care if he's wielding chopsticks, you interrupt his charge and attack first. That's a readied action.
Yup, same here. Not simultaneous - a readied action goes off just BEFORE the action that triggers it. Otherwise you couldn't interrupt someone casting a spell by readying an attack against them; they'd get the spell off just as your attack arrives.
They make the attack, which triggers your readied action. You resolve the readied action (and reset your initiative to just before them) and then they finish resolving their action.
You should note, though, that in the final version (and in beta), it's not quite as easy to actually destroy a weapon. You might give the weapon the "broken" condition (described in the Beta appendix), which will make it less effective, depending on how much damage you do.
You should note, though, that in the final version (and in beta), it's not quite as easy to actually destroy a weapon.
Huh? As far as I know, destroying a weapon is just as easy as it was in 3.5 (e.g. you can destroy it if you can reduce the weapon's hp to zero).
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Do remember, you can always take a single 5 foot step as part of a readied action. So even if your DM does not agree that you should be able to attack the lance at reach (even with a readied action), you can always 5 ft. step forward and sunder it then.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
The above can also be found in the Pathfinder Beta, pg. 153.
Also note that this has the added benefit of possibly denying them their own attack. If their reach weapon is one of the many that can't attack at close distance (adjacent) then they are further forced to halt their charge and back up to attack you. This is also assuming they did not get into a double move during their charge (which means they just can't attack anymore) and also will likely provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
Think of this as the patient warrior standing firm against the charging spear wielder, then, at the last moment, stepping forward and around their attack to bring their own weapon to bear.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
In addition to the wise ruling above, Paizo released a feat (among many others) that allowed you to ready to strike a creature attacking you with reach (in essence, attacking their limbs), which is thus *not* normally possible. If you can't attack a creature hitting you with reach, I can't see that you can strike a weapon from reach either.
As explanation, I would think of this as a difficulty in getting the right angle to strike, and the ability of the wielder to quickly jerk the weapon out of the way.
But yes, readied you can step up to strike it (unless it's a giant with a longspear).
Majuba - Acolyte of Nethys
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In addition to the wise ruling above, Paizo released a feat (among many others) that allowed you to ready to strike a creature attacking you with reach (in essence, attacking their limbs), which is thus *not* normally possible. If you can't attack a creature hitting you with reach, I can't see that you can strike a weapon from reach either.
This is quite true, and an excellent point. I would need to do some research to see if there has been an official ruling on this, though I could see it in one of two ways.
1. You cannot ready an action to strike a weapon or creature at a reach greater than you can normally attack. Of course, you can always 5 ft. step up as part of the attack and hit them if they become within reach then. Creatures with a reach of greater than 10 ft. would not be subject to this tactic.
2. As above, except you could ready to sunder the weapon you are attacked with even if the creature is still at a greater reach. Or, you can strike the creature if they are using a natural attack. Both of these without moving.
Personally, I would go with option 2. While I can agree that the creature's limbs are not always within reach even when they attack you (they are holding the haft of their weapon, generally, and are farther away then the weapon itself), it seems fitting that the weapon could be targeted no matter what. The limbs? Probably not, unless they're using a natural attack.
I will look into this.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
"You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action,
but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during
the round."This works for me. It will let DM keep his ruling and allow me a counter if properly prepared. It also balances reach only weapons. I don't know how I missed this before, it is in the 3.5 rules. doh
Me either. Does anyone know the reach only weapons off the top of their head?
CJ
Me either. Does anyone know the reach only weapons off the top of their head?
All of them except spiked chain, whip, and bladed scarf I believe: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, and ranseurs.
The feat that allows you to attack a creature's arms/weapons when the creature is out of your reach is called Strike Back, and as written applies to attacking a creature, not sundering their weapon ("...You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe...").
The lance is a valid target for a sunder as-is, and using a readied action allows you to act before the target, so I would allow you to do this. The 5 ft. step method is better, since the lance couldn't hit you if you didn't break it, but if you've already moved in this round you can't do that.