Let's Update the Witch

[Dario Nardi]

You may remember the Witch from the 3.5 Dungeon Masters Guide (how quite that book sounds now).

The witch was a sorcerer with an unique spell list. And that was it.

The spell list was essentially a hybrid of druid and wizard with a few cleric spells.

The overall focus was charm and nature with some healing, illusion, divination, and polymorph thrown in. And almost no damage-dealing spells. If I recall correctly, that list had no summoning, but I think a witch should be able to summon some creatures (fiends, etc) -- summon monster, no; planar binding, yes.

Anyway, the Pathfinder sorcerer bloodlines clearly allow a witchy theme, but the lack of access to witch-like spells in the druid and cleric spell list is a challenge.

And I wonder, what if we went one step further to make a druid / sorcerer hybrid? The mechanical elements would likely remain like a sorcerer (Hit Dice, weapons, Charisma-based spontaneous caster). However, the class abilities would be more like the druid (wild shape, one thousand faces, etc). And witches stereotypically engage in protracted rituals. How do we represent those? I have some ideas but I'd like to hear from you all first.

What would YOU want to see in a Pathfinder RPG witch?

[Watcher]

I'm purely bouncing ideas.. but no crunch (which is often not my forte).

Gosh, that's thought provoking. I would just step away from the 3.5 DMG altogether. Don't look at that and then model something. Model your own idea from scratch.

First step I suppose would be really to define the archtype you're writing up. For example, one can easily make a case for witch to be a sorcerer.

Except, most of the Wizard's trappings (i.e. the spellbook, the familiar, the material component, the unseen servant) actually seemed to come from the witch folklore.. and were then adopted by the early writers of what we consider contemporary fantasy in describing the Mage.

There are wizard-like trappings all over the the witches folklore. Just bear that in mind.

*****************
The witch has always struck me as independent, but drawing strength from a group, like a sacred circle or a coven. (As in covenant)

Witches have always seemed to be able to grant small boons or benefits (good luck, a fine singing voice, a boost to charisma, a benefit for a specific challenge), or curses and hexes (and those are easier to imagine so I won't belabor the point). Sometimes of terrifying power, but often not so much.. sometimes they just wear the victim down over time. Because, you know, they say it's the small things in live that drive you around the bend.

There is definitely a ritual aspect to some of their lore. Divintion too.

Hope this helps shape your initial vision for this class.

[Mark Gedak 27]

You could also work from the material created by Robert Schwalb for the Quintessential Witch.

[Dario Nardi]

Mark Gedak 27 wrote:

You could also work from the material created by Robert Schwalb for the Quintessential Witch.

Funny, I was aware this book existed but I had no idea it had such OGL material. Wow. Just scanning over it briefly, Schwalb did a nice job on it.

[Dario Nardi]

Watcher wrote:

I'm purely bouncing ideas.. but no crunch (which is often not my forte).

Gosh, that's thought provoking. I would just step away from the 3.5 DMG altogether. Don't look at that and then model something. Model your own idea from scratch.

First step I suppose would be really to define the archtype you're writing up. For example, one can easily make a case for witch to be a sorcerer.

Except, most of the Wizard's trappings (i.e. the spellbook, the familiar, the material component, the unseen servant) actually seemed to come from the witch folklore.. and were then adopted by the early writers of what we consider contemporary fantasy in describing the Mage.

There are wizard-like trappings all over the the witches folklore. Just bear that in mind.

*****************
The witch has always struck me as independent, but drawing strength from a group, like a sacred circle or a coven. (As in covenant)

Witches have always seemed to be able to grant small boons or benefits (good luck, a fine singing voice, a boost to charisma, a benefit for a specific challenge), or curses and hexes (and those are easier to imagine so I won't belabor the point). Sometimes of terrifying power, but often not so much.. sometimes they just wear the victim down over time. Because, you know, they say it's the small things in live that drive you around the bend.

There is definitely a ritual aspect to some of their lore. Divination too.

Hope this helps shape your initial vision for this class.

Funny how I'd never thought of so many of the wizard spells as, well, witch spells that got incorporated into the wizard archetype, which then slowly transformed into something more academic and flashy (until it became 4E's mobile blaster cannon).

Thank you for mentioning the boon part along with the curses. And yes, I feel the coven / group aspect is a major feature of the archetype.

In terms of archetypes, I'm thinking what would fit Pathfinder and the world of Golarion. There are also semi-modern themes that I think can fit the witch. Something like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, or The Picture of Dorian Grey, or the Island of Dr. Moreau.

[Stereofm]

Mark Gedak 27 wrote:

You could also work from the material created by Robert Schwalb for the Quintessential Witch.

Witch which wish ?

Because in 3e we had :
The Quintessial Witch (Mongoose)
The Witch handbook (grren ronin)
The Way of the Witch (Citizen games)
And I'm fairly sure there was a fourth one, though I don't remember where from

[Set]

Mark Gedak 27 wrote:

You could also work from the material created by Robert Schwalb for the Quintessential Witch.

The fact that some of the spells appear to be inspired by the Witch spells in Dragon Annual 1? Hilarious. So, so, awesome.

I like the route he took there, half-druid/half-wizard, with perhaps a touch of shaman.

[Dark_Mistress]

The Pantheon and Pagan Faiths, preview Witch.

I am not sure if there was a collected book or if each section was sold seperately. i have it and the Shaman book. Anyways that might be the 4th witch book you was thinking of.

[Dario Nardi]

Gosh, apparently the witch has been done to death.

Some of them are 3.0 versions too. Ah the days when Alchemy was a skill.

[KnightErrantJR]

However, "done to death" doesn't mean its not a fantasy archetype that wouldn't be nice to see translated into PFRPG . . .

I like Green Ronin's take on it, but it does feel like its kind of trapped between the 3.5 NPC classes and a full blow caster like the wizard or a druid.

And I agree that maintaining the sort of sorcerer/druid hybrid feel is probably the right tone for the class, but with most of the flashier spells of both classes excised in favor of smaller scale, but still potent, spells.

[Dark_Mistress]

Most things was done to death in the heyday of 3.Xe height. To some that was a bad thing and to others a good thing.

Anyways the witch would still need to be updated to PFRPG, since all the base classes got a boost. Just with the 4 books it gives a nice starting point. Can check out each, pick the best parts of each and make a new version since I believe they are all OGL.

[Robert Ranting]

Stereofm wrote:

Because in 3e we had :

The Quintessial Witch (Mongoose)
The Witch handbook (grren ronin)
The Way of the Witch (Citizen games)
And I'm fairly sure there was a fourth one, though I don't remember where from

The Witch was also a base class in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, likewise a d20 game, although it sorta did it's own thing and ignored much of the classical baggage.

[Coridan]

I particularly liked the Unbound Witch from Secrets of Pact Magic as a good witch base class, though it requires you to throw in Pact Magic (which can be quite a feat).

[dm4hire]

Definitely a lot more Witches than were expected. I owned the GR one and the Way of the Witch, but past on Quintessential as I wasn’t much for that series by Mongooses. I think the key as mentioned would be to find the right combination, either druid/sorcerer or druid/wizard and give them something different to be better at that the two base classes they stem from. Being able to fly innately, but only with the aid of a broom, sounds cliché but it’s something they could have that other classes don’t.

[minkscooter]

I recall something about places of power, possibly in the Mongoose book, but I can't remember. I really liked that idea (lingering magic that makes things behave slightly differently in a small area, like giving bonuses or penalties to different things).

There's a rumor that the Paizo staff might do a high-level adventure involving Baba Yaga, so it might be good if the chosen witch archetype works with that character.

[Dario Nardi]

Everyone, thank you for your great input so far.

I see I have a lot of reading to do!

There are some fun movies from the 1970s about witches. Movies less well known than Rosemary's Baby and perhaps odder. In one, an old guy on his deathbed invites a dozen (young) people to his rural mansion to test them to see who will inherit his witch-like powers. In another, a couple move to a new town. The wife is pregnant and stalked by several townsfolk of a coven who wish to sacrifice her (or something) in order to reincarnate their dead/dying leader into the baby's body. All the usual odd 1970s stuff (with actors who are 30-something, not 15 year olds; ah those were the days!)

I mention these because they have nice narrative potential. Witches are very rich for story ideas and I'd want to keep that.

[Watcher]

Dario Nardi wrote:

In one, an old guy on his deathbed invites a dozen (young) people to his rural mansion to test them to see who will inherit his witch-like powers.

You're thinking of the 1978 movie, The Legacy.

I'm going to be the voice of dissent however, with some of the other opinions. The more I think of it, the folklore, myth, and pop culture associations of the witch are closer in line with what we think of as the Wizard in conventional fantasy.

But I'll stop beating that horse. :)

[minkscooter]

Watcher wrote:

I'm going to be the voice of dissent however, with some of the other opinions. The more I think of it, the folklore, myth, and pop culture associations of the witch are closer in line with what we think of as the Wizard in conventional fantasy.

But I'll stop beating that horse. :)

Are you including Baba Yaga? I wouldn't disagree with you, I'm just curious and would like to know why.

[LazarX]

If you concentrate on "Witch" as a role instead of class the possiblities are pretty wide.

1. The Human Adept wise woman who's famous for healing the local farming families and sick animals and is drawing unfavorable attention from the local priest/cleric.

2. The reclusive half/elven sorceress who dwells in the deep forest of the Dreadwood seeking isolation from the humans/elves who persecuted her for her mixed heritage and the sudden appearance of her untrained magic.

3. The same as 2 above only our forest hermit is a Warlock with fey ties whom with her Witchwood Step and Call of the Beasts has made alliance with a whole forest worth of eyes who has her hut in the midst of a tangle of briars or the midst of a bog. Turns out she's also a pretty good herbalist who just might have the potion you need or could be convinced to make one if you can get past her distrust.

4. The same as 3 only as a druid.

The point here is a lot of avenues open up when you remember that terms like mage, witch, wise one, and warrior mean more than just the classes they refer to, they also connotate roles, and there is usually more than one way to fill the latter.

[Zaister]

It should definitely build on the good old 1e witch from Dragon #114!

[Iron Sentinel]

^
My favorite player character was a witch from that issue. (Yes, the article has witches as NPC's, but the me and the DM decided to try a witch PC). She hailed from Thentia in the Forgotten Realms, revered Mystra, and I took her from 1st level to about the 21st level.

I think Unorthodox Witches from Le Games might also fit the OP's criteria.

[Frogboy]

I think LazarX nailed what I was thinking. There are so many ways to create a Witch that it's probably the reason that Wizards never really bothered besides providing an alternative spell list. I think a Sorcerer bloodline would do well filling in the gaps where they diverge from the staple Witch.

[Dario Nardi]

I've been away for a few days finishing up stuff for a work deadline (an iPhone application, yay!). Thank you everyone who has continued the conversation.

I totally forgot about the 1e witch, and yes I too love the Unbound Witch from Secrets of Pact Magic ;-). </shameless plug>

The PfRPG sorcerer doesn't quite do it for me as a witch. Let me say that yes, the Pathfinder classes now cover a huge swath of concepts compared to 3.5. It's immensely richer, and the fey sorcerer can go a long way. Hats off with joy! But the sorcerer has no access to druid spells, and a number of druid spells feel pretty essential, though I am pressed to explain why beyond a vague feeling.

Looking at the various books for the witch... a number of them present multiple paths (thematic specializations), each path practically a class in its own right. I don't think I want to get into all that.

So, here's the scoop: I have a bunch of new witch spells (50 pages worth) and a desire to get everyone a playable witch -- and those spells - when Pathfinder RPG debuts in August. (Oops, the cat is out of the bag!)

I'll be reading and working on a witch this evening (along with arranging plans for Burning Man!)

[Frogboy]

Well, a Witch class obviously isn't out of the question. I envision it as a focused class much like the Beguiler or Warmage that would combine all of the elements that a archtypal Witch would have (Wildshape, Polymorph spells, Thousand Faces etc). I'd like to see something that I'm not sure if anyone has done with a Witch class (although I've never actually seen most of the ones people mentioned). Give him or her either cure spells or inflict spells based on alignment or the choice if neutral, similar to the Cleric. Of course this makes the good Witch a better choice in power/effectiveness standards but adds a nice flavor and gives the evil Witch some kind of damage dealing spell that the good Witch totally lacks.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

The ability to curse somewhat like a hexblade i feel is essential to the witch. What's a witch without cussing?

[Dario Nardi]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

The ability to curse somewhat like a hexblade i feel is essential to the witch. What's a witch without cussing?

LET'S VOTE....

Hexblade and Duskblade are taken. For a warrior version of the witch, how about...

a) Baneblade
b) Nightblade
c) Witch knight
d) Tormentor
e) Nemesis
f) Other ___?

[Matthew Morris]

Dario Nardi wrote:

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

The ability to curse somewhat like a hexblade i feel is essential to the witch. What's a witch without cussing?

LET'S VOTE....

Hexblade and Duskblade are taken. For a warrior version of the witch, how about...

a) Baneblade
b) Nightblade
c) Witch knight
d) Tormentor
e) Nemesis
f) Other ___?

f) Ex-wife?

g) Strigia
g1)Strigian Blade?

[Nero24200]

For making your own witch, theres no lack of abilities which can be given to such a class. Just off the top of my head I can see witches having access to charms, divinations, maybe even rituals or potion making. Though I suppose one idea which stands out quite significantly is hexes and curses, similer to what the hexblade has.

[Kirth Gersen]

It occurs to me there's no hag bloodline for sorcerers, either. It would sure be tempting to merge that with the witch...

The bloodline class skill might be Disguise;

Bloodline feats would include Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item (to make a broom of flying);

We could retain arcane bond as the 1st level bloodline power (a witch without a familiar?!), but use other ones for 3rd, 9th, 15th, 20th. One of those should almost certainly be the Evil Eye, analogous to the Hexblade's curse as Nero suggests, which we could scale up at certain level breaks (this is good for a hag bloodline because the sea hag already has such an ability).

Bonus spells might include disguise self (3rd), water breathing (7th), bestow curse (9th), baleful polymorph (11th), eyebite (13th), forcecage (15th), mind blank (17th).

[Kirth Gersen]

Taking the scaling Hexblade Curse feature a step further... if we did that, and then allowed this bloodline to be used with the SRD Battle Sorcerer variant, we could reproduce the Hexblade class without having to do a straight-up conversion of it (as is being worked on elsewhere in these boards). In other words, sorcerer with hag bloodline = witch; battle sorcerer with hag bloodline = hexblade.

[Dario Nardi]

Kirth, great ideas. A hag bloodline, yay! Which reminds me, bloodlines for trolls, lycanthropes, and giants might also be apropos.

Personally, I really like the battle sorcerer and cloistered cleric and some of the other UA variants.

Matthew Morris: Striga is a great name and could fill a spot between witch (poor combatant) and "hexblade" (good combatant). A striga might like a cross between witch, rogue, and monk with progression like a bard.

[Dario Nardi]

OK, here is a stab at the witch.
Keep in mind the biggest "purpose" of the class is its unique spell list (nonflashy mix of druid and wizard), which is not shown here.

BASICS
Focus: Mostly charm and nature themed spells plus curses, potions, shape change, coven magic, and fear.
BAB: Poor
Hit Die: d6
Saves: Good Will
Skill Points: 4 skill points / level
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Craft (In), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Spells: 0th-9th
Weapons/Armor: No armor, wizard weapons
Spell List: unique witch spell list

[b]PROGRESSION
Level Special
1 curse (1/day), cantrips, arcane bond
2 brew potion
3 -
4 wild shape (1/day), curse (2/day)
5 -
6 wild shape (2/day)
7 greater curse
8 cooperative magic, curse (3/day)
9 -
10 wild shape (3/day), monstrous form
11 -
12 curse (4/day)
13 -
14 wild shape (4/day), witch's circle
15 -
16 curse (5/day), curse the land
17 -
18 wild shape (5/day)
19 dire curse
20 unlimited curses

ABILITIES
Curse: Free action against 1 target, Will negates; target suffers -2 penalty on all die rolls for 1 hour (or 1 round if save).
Cantrips: As other spellcasters.
Arcane bond: As wizard.
Brew potion: As the feat, granted 1 level earlier than normally possible.
Wild Shape: As druid but animal or magical animal only.
Greater Curse: As curse but -4 penalty (or, if witch chooses, target is frightened instead).
Cooperative Magic: Lead allies in 10 minute ritual to boost witch's magic in one or more ways.
Monstrous Form: Briefly acquire form and stats of a monstrous humanoid, giant, or shadow creature.
Witch's Circle: Aura applies boon to allies and curse to enemies within area.
Curse the Land: Creates a temporary supernatural terrain zone.
Dire Curse: As curse but -6 penalty (or, if witch chooses, target panicked).

Questions:
Arcane or divine magic? I'm now tempted to say divine magic, but source of magic prohibits all armor.
Prepared or spontaneous casting? I'm tempted to say prepared and relies on a "book of shadows".
If spontaneous, then the witch could refer to a special book to gain a spell or three each day to cast from the book.
Maybe allow the "curse" ability to be either a curse or boon?

[Watcher]

minkscooter wrote:

Watcher wrote:

I'm going to be the voice of dissent however, with some of the other opinions. The more I think of it, the folklore, myth, and pop culture associations of the witch are closer in line with what we think of as the Wizard in conventional fantasy.

But I'll stop beating that horse. :)

Are you including Baba Yaga? I wouldn't disagree with you, I'm just curious and would like to know why.

I suppose I see the sorceror as a creation of late fantasy and pop culture. That it takes too much 'screen time' to perform a ritual, consult a spellbook, call upon forbidden pacts with unseen forces and demonic lovers.

Instead it's easier to just wave your hands and shoot red lightning out of your fingertips and levitate at will. That's the Hollywood Witch for you.

Now.. having said that, and it's a scathing remark (for which I meant no hard feelings whatsoever, truly)...

I like Kirth's suggestion of a sorcerer with a hag bloodline. That kinda works.

The problem is that, as someone mentioned above, there are so many roles and styles of magic user that someone could slap the label "witch" on to, it's hard to narrow the focus down.

After thinking it about, and looking at the weath of subject material.. the term "witch" by itself is almost generic without a further descriptor.

The Hag Bloodline Sorcerer certainly describes one type of witch.

[Kirth Gersen]

Dario Nardi wrote:

Kirth, great ideas. A hag bloodline, yay! Which reminds me, bloodlines for trolls, lycanthropes, and giants might also be apropos.

Thanks! I'll work on the Hag Bloodline tonight, given a chance, and see if I can't also stat up something approximating the 3.5 Hexblade example using it.

I've already worked up Troll and Giant bloodlines, and a number of others (genies, initiates of the Broken Pattern, Lords of Chaos, all posted elsewhere)... I'd love to see a lycanthrope one, but I'm at a loss as to where to start. A shadow one would be cool, too.

[Dark_Mistress]

Well for what a witch is, it depends a lot if you plan to stay true to the more Wiccan witches or more along the mythical witches or even more hollywood style.

[Kirth Gersen]

Dark_Mistress wrote:

it depends a lot if you plan to stay true to the more Wiccan witches...

And then you need to decide if you're going for historical (details mostly lost) or for latter-day Wiccan witches...

[Dario Nardi]

Watcher's comments really pull me in a direction I'm tending toward.

Going with a witch as a divine prepared spellcaster helps make the class meaningfully different from a spontaneous arcane caster. It could work sort of like this:

Arcane Bond: Like a wizard, a witch selects either familiar or bonded item at 1st level.
If the witch selects a familiar, the creature is the source of the witch's knowledge; she learns new spells from the familiar and if she loses the familiar, she cannot learn any new spells until she replaces it.
If the witch selects a bonded item, the item acts as a compass and mental focus to sources of new knowledge; like loosing a familiar, she can only learn new spells if she possesses the bonded item and it is not damaged.

Book of Shadows: A witch prepares spells each day from a book in a manner similar to a wizard. The witch is a divine spellcaster, but relies on this book. A witch starts play with a book that contains all witch cantrips plus three 1st-level witch spells and one additional witch spell per point of Intelligence bonus of the witch's choice. At each level, the witch adds 2 more spells reflecting what she has learned with the aid of her familiar or bonded item.
At any one time, a witch may possess and prepare spells from more than one book of shadows. In fact, there are many witch books, each focusing on a different theme of spells.

Beyond this, I am tempted to add an "otherworldly patron" feature. The selection of patron grants the witch an aura (apropos to divine spellcasters). At later levels, the witch automatically adds the lesser planar ally and commune spells (if not already in her book) to interact with her patron or an avatar or representative thereof. Unlike a cleric's deity, the patron is a non-divine creature (such as a demon lord or solar) and the witch doesn't necessarily worship the patron; more often, it (or one of its allies) will become her lover or mentor instead).

[Dark_Mistress]

historical ones are hard to do, since there is very little written record of them. Plus much of what there is was written by those opposed to them.

I just know one of my friends gets bent out of shape a lot about witches in RPG's. Her being a praticing Wiccan.

[Kirth Gersen]

Dario Nardi wrote:

Watcher's comments really pull me in a direction I'm tending toward.

Good deal! You guys work on a new witch base class; I'll work on a Hag Bloodline for sorcerers; at the end we can compare notes. The game is definitely big enough for both!

[Dario Nardi]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Dario Nardi wrote:

Watcher's comments really pull me in a direction I'm tending toward.

Good deal! You guys work on a new witch base class; I'll work on a Hag Bloodline for sorcerers; at the end we can compare notes. The game is definitely big enough for both!

I totally agree.

[Dario Nardi]

Okay, three fairly minor but flavorful class features...

Supernatural Patron: At 1st level, a witch selects an otherwordly patron. The patron is usually an outsider type creature, immortal and powerful but not divine. The selection of patron grants the witch an aura that corresponds to the witch's alignment. This works like a cleric of the same level. A typical patron is a demon lord, fey monarch, or solar, although less powerful patrons are possible. It is not unusual for an evil or chaotic patron's lesser minions to misleadingly represent themselves as the patron. A witch rarely worships her patron. More often, the patron is a focus of admiration, homage, and guidance. A high level witch might view herself as the patron's lover, and sometimes this is true. The witch's reason for selecting her patron varies with her background. The patron may have visited her once, or sent a vision or messenger, or worked through other witches.

Supernatural Lore: At 9th level, a witch automatically adds the spells augury, divination, and lesser planar ally to her book of shadows if these spells are not already present. She must still prepare these spells as normal. When the witch casts these spells, assume the spells rely upon or summon a representative of her patron.

Supernatural Alliance: At 13th level, a witch automatically adds the spells commune, planar ally, and greater planar ally to her book of shadows if these spells are not already present. She enters these spells into her book of shadows even if she is not yet eligible to cast them. She must still prepare these spells as normal. Assume the spells rely upon or summon her patron or a representative of her patron.

[Kirth Gersen]

OK, having worked on this a bit, I've decided there was insufficient overlap to properly merge the Hag bloodline with the hexblade ideas. Instead, I've worked up two separate bloodlines -- each of which is independent to any Witch base class that you might come up with. I've spoilered them due to length.

HAG

Spoiler:

Many hags have the ability to change their appearance, making it possible for them to interact with creatures of other races. Though horrible to contemplate, some use this ability to lure in mates, in the hopes that the offspring can help them further their evil plots. The descendants of a hag tend to be strong but ugly, and often share their ancestor's love of schemes. You are either descended from the mating of a hag and a human (perhaps you have a hagspawn ancestor), or possibly—if you are female—you were “adopted” by a hag and narrowly avoided becoming one of them.
Class Skill: Disguise.
Bonus Spells: disguise self (3rd), bull’s strength (5th), water breathing (7th), bestow curse (9th), baleful polymorph (11th), veil (13th), forcecage (15th), mind blank (17th), energy drain (19th).
Bonus Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, Great Fortitude
Bloodline Powers:
Claws (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can make two claw attacks as a full-attack action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, meaning that you are always considered armed and you do not gain additional attacks for a high base attack bonus. These attacks deal 1d6 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d4 if you are Small). At 5th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the damage increases to 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if you are Small). At 11th level, these claws deal an additional 1d6 points of acid damage on a successful hit. This is a supernatural ability.
Rend (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, If you hit with both claw attacks, you latch onto the opponent’s body and tear the flesh. This attack automatically deals additional damage equal to twice your base claw damage + 1½ times your Strength bonus.
Evil Eye (Sp): Starting at 9th level, once per day you can use a gaze attack on any single creature within 30 feet. The target must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 + ½ your caster level + your Charisma modifier) or be dazed for three days, although remove curse or dispel evil can restore sanity sooner. In addition, an affected creature must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC as above) or die from fright. Creatures with immunity to fear effects are not affected by the evil eye.
At 13th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 19th level, you can use it three times per day.
Coven Mistress (Ex): At 15th level, you gain a hill giant cohort and 6 ogre followers. For every 2 levels past the 15th, you can attract an additional ogre. These are in addition to followers and/or cohorts gained with the Leadership feat, although the “possesses familiar/animal companion” penalty to your Leadership score for purposes of your cohort applies in that case.
Hagblood (Su): At 20th level, you gain damage reduction 2/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft. (if you do not already possess it) and spell resistance equal to 11 + your caster level.

HEX-BLOOD

Spoiler:

You are descended from a magically cursed family member. That curse manifests itself around you, frequently in the form of unexplained accidents or bad luck experienced by those around you. Those with this bloodline often progress using the Battle Sorcerer variant (see 3.5 edition System Reference Document), becoming “Hexblades”—potent warriors as well as spellcasters.
Class Skill: Intimidate.
Bonus Spells: cause fear (3rd), blindness/deafness (5th), deep slumber (7th), bestow curse (9th), baleful polymorph (11th), eyebite (13th), insanity (15th), temporal stasis (17th), disjunction (19th).
Bonus Feats: Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus (enchantment, necromancy, or trans-mutation), Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (enchantment, necromancy, or transmutation), Spell Penetration.
Bloodline Powers: As one who has coped with a curse his whole life, you are more resistant than normal to other baleful magics. Eventually you learn to consciously apply curses to others.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your levels stack with any wizard levels you posses when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object.
Mettle (Su): Starting at 3rd level, if you make a successful Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally have a lesser effect on a save (such as any spell with a saving throw of Fortitude Partial), you instead completely negate the effect.
Hex (Su): Starting at 9th level, you can unleash a curse upon a foe as a free action. The target must be visible and within 60 ft. The target takes a –2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for 1 hour thereafter. A successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ your base attack bonus + your Charisma modifier) negates the effect. Any effect that dispels or eliminates a curse also removes your hex. You may target a specific creature with your hex only once in a 24-hour period.
At 13th level, your curse improved to a greater curse (the penalty increases to –4). At 19th level, your hex improves again to a dire curse (the penalty increases to –6).
Arcane Resistance (Su): At 15th level, you gain a bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities equal to your Charisma bonus.
Aura of Unluck (Su): At 20th level, your curse manifests itself as a baleful aura of misfortune. Any melee or ranged attack made against you suffers a 20% miss chance (similar to the effects of concealment).

[Digitalelf]

Zaister wrote:

It should definitely build on the good old 1e witch from Dragon #114!

Somebody already updated her to d20...

Here...

[Kirth Gersen]

Digitalelf wrote:

Somebody already updated her to d20...

Here...

Out of curiousity (but off-topic)...

Having read many of your posts...

I wondered why you never end a sentence with a period...

Instead of trailing off with ellipses...

[Digitalelf]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Out of curiousity (but off-topic)...

Having read many of your posts...

I wondered why you never end a sentence with a period...

Instead of trailing off with ellipses...

To...

Amuse...

And..

Befuddle...

;-P

On a more serious note, I suppose, everyone needs some kind of "signature". And this has apparently become mine (been doing it for years now, and on many different message boards). Not even sure when I actually started doing it...

-That One Digitalef Fellow-

[KnightErrantJR]

Honestly, the sorcerer/druid hybrid arcane class is what I was hoping for. I'm not really interested in a divine class. Its not that I can't see it, but its kind of like any other arcane class that's interested in the divine . . . that's what multi-classing is for.

[Dario Nardi]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

OK, having worked on this a bit, I've decided there was insufficient overlap to properly merge the Hag bloodline with the hexblade ideas. Instead, I've worked up two separate bloodlines -- each of which is independent to any Witch base class that you might come up with. I've spoilered them due to length.

HAG
** spoiler omitted **...

Kirth,

How about "Legacy" or "Accursed" for the hex bloodline?

[Dario Nardi]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Honestly, the sorcerer/druid hybrid arcane class is what I was hoping for. I'm not really interested in a divine class. Its not that I can't see it, but its kind of like any other arcane class that's interested in the divine . . . that's what multi-classing is for.

Yeah, sorcerer/druid was my first interest too. So how did I end up with the witch above.... As folks suggested witch ideas, I realized the witch is many things, and the Pathfinder is a far cry (and huge improvement!) from the old sorcerer. You can do almost anything with a sorcerer now.

That said, how could we build a witch druid/sorcerer hybrid?
-- change the class spell list
-- alter the class skills
-- select an appropriate bloodline (fey, hag, lycanthrope, genie, legacy, as usual for sorcerer)
-- reduce spells/day per level by 1
-- allow the witch sorcerer to use a spell book to prepare a small number of spells each day (to offset fewer spells/day)

A lycanthrope bloodline would grant wild shape (into animals only), while a genie bloodline would grant elemental wild shape, and a plant bloodline would grant plant wild shape. Keep in mind, a sorcerer can select spells to mimic wild shape, so ultimately this sorcerer could look pretty much like a druid.

Some might suggest adding 1 or 2 minor features to compensate for the witch's "weaker" spell list, but I'd prefer to add sufficient druid and cleric spells to make it yummy.

Is this more what you were looking for? If so, I think it's another way to approach the witch that's quite viable.

As for the divine witch above, she doesn't really need to be divine. Remove the aura and say "arcane" and it's the same thing. But of course it's then a prepared caster rather than a spontaneous one.

Thoughts?

[KnightErrantJR]

Okay, this is going to be a long winded answer to what is at its heart a pretty simple question. I apologize, and I hope it makes some sense when I'm done.

First off, I really like the Green Ronin Witch, and in all honestly, would love to just see that class get some tweaks to bring it more in line, power wise, with PFRPG classes. It already was a bit weak for a 3.0 class in its day, but it felt pretty close to being "right" to me.

Why I like the Witch as a sorcerer/druid hybrid as an arcane class is because the essence of the witch is that she is a wise woman that can do magic that others don't quite "get." You can argue the specifics back and forth, but in D&D, the core classes are more or less vaguely understood by the more learned of the common folk, but witch should remain a bit of a mystery.

How so?

Okay, people get that a wizard studies his spells from a spellbook and plays with components and casts spells very precisely in a certain formula. He's kind of a "magical scientist." People know that sorcerers, whatever their bloodline, are more or less "born with it."

Druids get their magic from worshiping nature, or nature spirits, or nature gods. People kind of get that they channel power from another source.

But witches learn their Art. They aren't born with it. But they don't have to learn it "scientifically." They don't fit into the wizard mold or the sorcerer mold. And they get nature magics that may make even druids wary of them, since they know that arcane casters normally don't have such an easy time of emulating.

Wizards need books and experiments to learn their Art, sorcerers have to practice what they have naturally, but witches have to learn a few secrets from a wise old woman that knows them, and then spend lots of time in solitude learning how those secrets pertain to her, learning magic on a visceral level that is hard to convey only in words.

What I liked about some of the 3.5 classes like the Binder and the Warlock were that they reintroduced the concept of an arcane class that might make people nervous because they don't use "normal" magic. I think the witch should be in that same category, but for a different reason. Because the witch can't just explain their formulas and experiments, wizards are leery of her, and because it takes some discipline and training, sorcerers can't quite experience what the witch has learned, so she walks a sort of unexplainable line between the two.

What I think is also important is that the witch needs to scare people without having to be truly sinister, if she doesn't wish to be. The poor old woman living on the edge of town can have a heart of gold and be a paragon of virtue, but she's nearly in tears because she can't really explain to the wizard or the cleric that have visited her how she does what she does, because they just can't get it without actually immersing themselves in the tradition.

Okay . . . taking a breath now . . . does any of that make any sense, or did I just cast Wall of Text?

[Dario Nardi]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Okay, this is going to be a long winded answer to what is at its heart a pretty simple question. I apologize, and I hope it makes some sense when I'm done.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. I understand a desire to have some of the witch's mystique reflected in the class's mechanics. I'm just not sure how to implement it.

Here are some options:

A witch can keep a book of shadows, and that book is NOT usable by wizards (nor are wizard spell books usable by witches). A witch's book is written in a way that is intuitive, metaphorical, holistic, and personal. It might not even be magical.

Another method is the witch learns spells and prepares them, but there is no spell book at all. All the spells are in her head. Or maybe each spell is represented in a different way (amulet for one spell, tiara for another, on bones for several others, on a tooth for yet another, etc).

A witch might be like a shaman or shahir (from Dragon Magazine's update of the al-Qadim campaign setting) or a combination of both. Perhaps the witch selects spells each day through her familiar, who makes a request to the witch's patron (on another plane of existence) for any particular spell she names from the witch spell list. But the witch is not assured of getting that spell in a timely fashion.

We could do a hybrid of prepared and spontaneous casting. A witch can prepare spells from a book of shadows, and she also knows a few spells that she can use spontaneously (sort of like a cleric's ability to cast cure/inflict spells spontaneously.)

What else.... In later 3.5, new methods were introduced. The warmage and dread necromancer and beguiler had closed spell lists from which they could cast spontaneously. I played a dread necromancer for 13 levels and found this method was pretty balanced. Sometimes Cal was amazing, and sometimes he was totally lame, but there was no question that he was always a necromancer.

I'm prone to stay within the style of Pathfinder rather than branch back to 3.5's later years. The 3.5 warlock is pretty unique for 3.5, and fairly reminiscent now of 4th Edition. And the binder: well, I have a lot to say about that class, but that's a different project.

Perhaps a witch should have multiple methods of doing spells, all sort of messed up and seemingly inefficient, yet granting her access to multiple spell lists in a way that other casts can only dream of.