Flaming Amulet of Might Fists and Its Implications For Weapons and Armor

[SuperSheep]

Given the new preview with the new Amulet of Mighty Fists and Bracers of Armor and the fact that they don't require an enhancement bonus before stacking on properties, my question is why *do* weapons and armors require a +1 bonus first? Is this still necessary for balance? Has anyone tried house-ruling it so that they don't? And how did it turn out?

[Morgen]

Well I don't know what information your going with to get that, but in the beta rules the Bracers of Armor still need to be at least a minimum of +1 to apply armor properties to them, and even then you can't add anything that's a straight GP cost on top of that.

The much higher costs on the Amulet preclude the need for it have the +1 requirement, as well as the fact it can only hold up to +5 points of enchantment.

A +1 weapon is 2300 + weapon cost.
A +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists is 5000.

A +2 Weapon is 8300 + weapon cost.
A +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists is 20000

A +1 Flaming Ghost Touch weapon (+3 bonus) is 18300 + weapon cost.
A Flaming Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists is 20000.

I don't see any reason to remove the +1 base requirement on magic armor and weapons, otherwise the Amulet becomes even more of a rip-off.

Monks after all have a huge list of monk weapons to use their abilities with and the Amulet only works with Unarmed Attacks not with Natural Attacks like claws or slam attacks. A +2 flaming vorpal is 128302 gold, less then 3000 gold more then the best Amulet of Mighty Fists.

[meatrace]

Yeah, wow. For some reason I thought they had changed the pricing of the amulet of mighty fists. Maybe in final? That really is a huge ripoff!

[hogarth]

Morgen wrote:

math deleted

I'd probably compare the price of an amulet of mighty fists to two magic weapons (since using natural attacks/flurry of blows is more similar to using two-weapon fighting in a sense), but yes, it gets to be a rip-off at higher levels.

[JoelF847]

hogarth wrote:

Morgen wrote:

math deleted

I'd probably compare the price of an amulet of mighty fists to two magic weapons (since using natural attacks/flurry of blows is more similar to using two-weapon fighting in a sense), but yes, it gets to be a rip-off at higher levels.

And by this logic, it's a bargain for lots of monsters with lots of attacks - like a kraken or dragon.

[Xaaon of Xen'Drik]

It's a bargain with flurry of blows...

it applies to every attack...not just the primary attack...and monks have greater flurry now...

it'll be fine...

[Dragorine]

Morgen wrote:

Monks after all have a huge list of monk weapons to use their abilities with and the Amulet only works with Unarmed Attacks not with Natural Attacks like claws or slam attacks. A +2 flaming vorpal is 128302 gold, less then 3000 gold more then the best Amulet of Mighty Fists.

per beta

Amulet of Mighty Fists
Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot neck; Price 5,000 gp (+1), 20,000 gp (+2), 45,000 gp (+3),
80,000 gp (+4), 125,000 gp (+5); Weight —
Description
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and
damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Alternatively, this amulet can be enchanted with melee weapon special
abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table
15–7 for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for
determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or
damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus
(enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than
+5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement
bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.

[Dragorine]

I see no reason to not use this for a Druid. I wouldn't bother with the enhancement bonus because greater magic fang is 1h/level duration but a flaming or a shock enchant to it would work well

[Abraham spalding]

I would go for either: Merciful, Vicious, Wounding or Speed, maybe holy (or the other equivalents).

The problem with the elemental damage adders is that a single d6 generally won't get past energy resistance, basically it just eats a +1 enhancement bonus (that would get past the energy resistance).

However in my games I do allow you to take the energy types more than once each meaning you could get enough dice to actually hurt a creature.

[Lathiira]

JoelF847 wrote:

hogarth wrote:

Morgen wrote:

math deleted

I'd probably compare the price of an amulet of mighty fists to two magic weapons (since using natural attacks/flurry of blows is more similar to using two-weapon fighting in a sense), but yes, it gets to be a rip-off at higher levels.

And by this logic, it's a bargain for lots of monsters with lots of attacks - like a kraken or dragon.

I now have an image of a marilith monk with the unholy property on her amulet . . .

[Dragorine]

Oh, well whatever else enchant you want to put on it I just used flaming and shock because they were a quick choice. I was just saying they worked with natural attacks along with unarmed attacks. I think the price is worth it for a druid because other than that i might take amulet of natural armor but they have barkskin for a spell and I guess I like the idea of fiery bear claws of doom :P

[Dragonborn3]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Vicious

I like that one, because it makes sense. You hit something so hard you actually hurt yourself a little. The Explosive enhancement on the other flurry, is not a good idea...

[Krome]

Why is it an amulet anyway? Wouldn't gloves or bracers have been a more logical and place appropriate item?

[Azhagal]

Lathiira wrote:

I now have an image of a marilith monk with the unholy property on her amulet . . .

runs in fear of a six-armed flurrying monk that does 3d8+2d6+14 damage per hand for a total of 1062 damage(average)...assuming all 6 arms act act in 2 groups of 3, 3 primary, 3 offhand.

die rolls done on Wizards' Dnd die roller

I am liking the change to the amulet of mighty fists, but I am still trying to grasp the logic of an amulet adding roll and dmg mods to attack instead of gauntlets, bracers, or rings, but I think this could wield interesting results

[Mikaze]

The thought of a marilith monk makes me giddy.

Hmm...Merciful Amulet? I wonder if someone could manage to slap that onto a hostile monster, to train folks on how to fight them properly.

[psionichamster]

for real lulz...

Druid (Shapeshifter Variant) with high Str, Girallon's Blessing, Imp Natural Attack (Claw), and Amulet with Merciful & Vicious on it.

Every attack is staged up 1 die type (INA), you have 4 Claws + rend, and each attack does +4d6 nonlethal (and 1d6 to yourself).

very very nasty

-t

[Krome]

Mikaze wrote:

The thought of a marilith monk makes me giddy.

Hmm...Merciful Amulet? I wonder if someone could manage to slap that onto a hostile monster, to train folks on how to fight them properly.

Mmm Marilith monk, that is just so wrong it is RIGHT!

So out of curiosity I wanted to look up the details on the Merilith since it has been a while since I have seen or used one.

"In combination with its natural abilities, a marilith’s Multiweapon Fighting feat allows it to attack with all its arms at no penalty."

since Multiweapon Fighting only works like Two-Weapon Fighting but for multi-armed critters, what else is contributing to this "at no penalty?" I wouldn't think Constrict nor Improved Grab would really contribute. Regardless it is in the description they get no penalties, but the mechanics seem iffy to me.

[Mikaze]

If a marilith monk could use her constriction AND flurry on the same target...man, the visual alone is worth it.

Damn it, now I've fallen in love with the idea. I'm coming up with an excuse for this to happen that doesn't involve Helm of Opposite Alignment shenanigans...

[meatrace]

Well to be fair, flurry of blows doesn't stipulate that you're attacking with both hands or more necessarily. You can flurry all with one hand. Regardless I still think it's a ripoff. I can understand higher prices because it is more versatile, but the difference between 8k for a +2 weapon and 20k for +2 amulet is nothing to laugh off. A regular two weapon fighter could get 2 +2 weapons for the same price and have change, not to mention it wouldn't waste a body slot.

Too steep IMO. Granted, yeah, for druids it would be awesome but...maybe we should just have different items. Magic Ki Straps instead of amulet for monks?

[Misery]

Krome wrote:

Why is it an amulet anyway? Wouldn't gloves or bracers have been a more logical and place appropriate item?

Not to me. Amulets or possibly belts work because it's more attached to the base of your body. After all, it's not just your fists but your head, feet, elbows, etc etc. So I think the amulet works fine.

[Morgen]

Dragorine wrote:

Morgen wrote:

Smart sounding mostly sound one mistake very handsome. Oh, and don't forget humble!

This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and

damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

Sorry, I was reading from the "Alternatively, this amulet can be enchanted with melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks" and skipped over that first little mini paragraph entirely. Good catch.

You guys need to remember, Monks can totally flurry of blows with all sorts of different weapons. Kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham are all different weapons monks can use in a flurry of blows, while applying full strength modifiers without worrying about how many times they've attacked with the weapon (well, minus shuriken if your throwing them of course) and are perfectly wonderful to buy and enchant.

Sure at higher levels you might do more damage with a fist or a kick, but you really shouldn't over look their weapons either. Their tripping, disarming, relatively awesome exotic weapons. Plus what monk doesn't enjoy a little vial of Oil of Shillelagh for their masterwork quarterstaff? :)

[Staffan Johansson]

Krome wrote:

Why is it an amulet anyway? Wouldn't gloves or bracers have been a more logical and place appropriate item?

Yes, it would. The pricing of the AOMF in 3.5e actually works out pretty well if you consider it as two weapons (because monk flurry is basically equivalent to Two-weapon fighting), and then given a +50% penalty for being in the wrong slot (Amulets are supposed to be good at Discernment and Protection). A pair of Bracers of Mighty Fists ought to cost 4,000 for +1, with prices escalating from there in the normal fashion.

Making it an amulet, of course, means that it's more feasible for druids to get one for their animal companion (and for monsters to use it in general). Putting a pair of bracers on an animal feels a bit weird, but an amulet shouldn't pose a problem. And given that the AOMF has Magic Fang as a prerequisite, it's not inconceivable that it was invented by a druid for the purpose of helping his animal buddy, and monks later figured out that it worked great for them too.

That said, the AOMF is a bit problematic from a game design perspective. Clearly, the increasing unarmed damage of a monk is supposed to compensate for not getting a magic weapon, but they miss out on attack bonuses that way, which adds to the "flurry of misses" problem. I'd be inclined to replace them with an item along the lines of Bracers of Accurate Fists, providing an attack (but not damage) bonus to unarmed attacks. This would have a base cost of 1,000 to 1,500 gp (attack bonuses are more valuable than damage bonuses, so I'd be inclined toward the higher value), or maybe double that if you consider the monk to be dual-wielding. Hmm, a base price tag of 2,500 gp sounds fairly attractive and reasonable (10k for +2, 22.5k for +3, 40k for +4, and 62.5k for +5). I could see it using either Magic Fang or True Strike as prereqs.

[Finn]

Morgen wrote:

You guys need to remember, Monks can totally flurry of blows with all sorts of different weapons. Kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham are all different weapons monks can use in a flurry of blows, while applying full strength modifiers without worrying about how many times they've attacked with the weapon (well, minus shuriken if your throwing them of course) and are perfectly wonderful to buy and enchant.

Indeed; that`s why my (Eberron) monk uses a longspear for flurrying (with the feat Serpent Strike). It`s cheaper to enhance, and you get all of the advantages of using a 2-handed weapon.

[Takamonk]

Finn wrote:

Morgen wrote:

You guys need to remember, Monks can totally flurry of blows with all sorts of different weapons. Kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham are all different weapons monks can use in a flurry of blows, while applying full strength modifiers without worrying about how many times they've attacked with the weapon (well, minus shuriken if your throwing them of course) and are perfectly wonderful to buy and enchant.

Indeed; that`s why my (Eberron) monk uses a longspear for flurrying (with the feat Serpent Strike). It`s cheaper to enhance, and you get all of the advantages of using a 2-handed weapon.

Except the PHB explicitly states when you flurry with a 2 handed weapon, you only get your Strength modifier, not 1.5x and not 2x.

[Morgen]

Takamonk wrote:

Except the PHB explicitly states when you flurry with a 2 handed weapon, you only get your Strength modifier, not 1.5x and not 2x.

I think there are a few other advantages to wielding a weapon in 2 hands, but then we're wondering even further from the topic of this thread.