On a somewhat related note, I am the only one who finds posts that either:
1. Complain about "complainers"; or
2. Attempt to moderate "self-appointed moderators."pathetic and ironic at the same time?
Only when you say it.
What? You mean I linked to the very words of the other Scott Betts? The other one who said the answer to 'If it [dislike of 4th edition] doesn't belong in the 4th edition forums, where does it belong' was 'nowhere'?
And get off the martyr complex. Since you read my post, and knew how to hit the 'reply to' button, I'll assume you also knew how to use the 'page down' button on the keyboard. You know the one where ypu could see the post I was defending you for your post on the thread and not 'starting it'.
I appreciate where you've defended me in the past, but it did seem like you were singling me out (since you've linked to that post more than once now) for a criticism that I don't feel is valid. I never said that people who are anti-4e shouldn't post anywhere. I said that I don't think any place is appropriate for unconstructive, bitter rants about a game you don't enjoy - it does nothing for the community, but rather serves only as yet another divisive post. As others have said in this thread, it's much better to be excited about something you do enjoy than it is to hate on something you don't. My short answer of "Nowhere," was immediately followed by a long answer that I wrote in order to explain what I meant by that.
I apologize if my reaction was unfounded, but I dislike having my words taken out of (a rather important) context probably about as much as you dislike being accused of singling someone out.
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On a somewhat related note, I am the only one who finds posts that either:
1. Complain about "complainers"; or
2. Attempt to moderate "self-appointed moderators."
pathetic and ironic at the same time?
I enjoy any post that quotes Anchorman
It's my inner child (or inner moron either/or. I also like jokes about bodily functions and boobs {hehehe I'm laughing already})|
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Quote from said article.
>
[3.3] But it didn't last long. Perhaps threatened by the upsurge in competition, Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast attempted to recall the open license and revoke the rights of third-party publishers, and supporters of the open license were fired en masse. When they found that the license could not be revoked, they began work on a new edition of D&D that would not fall under the open license. They banked on the brand name's popularity forcing the industry to comply with their new standard and created an almost unusably restrictive "game system license" allowing minimal third-party support for their new edition.
>
How many think that their perception of 4e is colored by the way WotC went about its development and introduction?
I think that its valid to not look at 4e products because you personally don't want to condone this sort of corporate behaviour.
This of course is assuming the statements made by the author have a factual basis and aren't just a little bit of roleplaying to create an "evil empire".
It sort of rings true for me and I believe that it is a likely scenerio. However not just a WotC thing, TSR did the same thing many years ago with I think Mayfair Games (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
S.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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(In terms of rules systems, I still personally find the old Victory Games 007 rules to be superior to 3rd edition, 4th edition, AND Pathfinder... but nobody uses those rules for fantasy settings.)
Kirth, have you posted anything about this system anyhere?
I once used the 007 rules for a modern-day psionics campaignette, and it worked quite well.
On a somewhat related note, I am the only one who finds posts that either:
1. Complain about "complainers"; or
2. Attempt to moderate "self-appointed moderators."
pathetic and ironic at the same time?I enjoy any post that quotes Anchorman
It's my inner child (or inner moron either/or. I also like jokes about bodily functions and boobs {hehehe I'm laughing already})
Awesome! I can quote movies I haven't seen! :P
Did someone say boobs?
Did someone say boobs?
Here the Boob Thread is: American Breastages
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I'm another one who plays both 4E and 3.5, along with pretty much all of my local gaming group. At least in my area it seems that there isn't actually all that much vitriol between 4E and 3.5/Pathfinder gamers, it's just that the people who feel more strongly about it are the ones who tend to post about it more online.
The Paizo boards have no obligation to be 4e friendly outside of the specific 4e sub forum (and again, they really have no obligation to host a sub forum for their competition, but they're cool like that; again, where's the Pathfinder sub-forum on the Wizards site?). In that sub forum, you are absolutely, 100% correct that trolling should not be tolerated and 4e (or WotC) hating should be moderated.
However, anywhere else on these boards that is not correct. The REST of the boards are for 3x/Paizo partisans. They can have and voice whatever opinions they want, as long as they don't attack anyone personally. (And, yes, I do think the Paizo peeps maybe should bring the hammer down a bit more when things get too personal).
And in a somewhat related fashion I disagree very strongly with the post quoted above. If the 4E boards are for 4E friendly discussion and all the other boards are for 3.x/Pathfinder partisans then where exactly should people who like both systems sit? Off at a different board altogether presumably. I don't particularly care to see random bashing of another game I enjoy dotted all over the forums when the topic has nothing to do with that.
(Note that I don't think the boards actually are like this, I'm just taking issue with the suggestion that they should be. I think the community here is really good from what I've seen so far, and not actually as rabidly anti-4E as I was led to expect.]
Each forum should be for respectful discussions on the topic of that board, whether positiive or negative about it. I don't think that everybody on the 4E forum have to be cheerleaders, but everybody should show some respect to the opinions of other people on those...
Here's the point. Paizo doesn't publish 4e materials. If I want to say I dislike something about 4e anywhere OTHER than the 4e section, and I want to have a discussion with like minded individuals, what I shouldn't have to do is consider the "feelings" of certain 4e fans (aptly called 4vengers) who take every small criticism of 4e as a personal attack. I should be able to criticize WotC's business and marketing practices without having to hear how "bitter" I am.
And, again, I ask: where's the hue and cry for a "Pathfinder safe" corner of the WotC boards? OR EnWorld? Or RPGNet? Paizo did a nice thing allowing a corner of their universe to exist to discuss their "rival's" product, with zero reciprocation. If it shocks you or offends youthat a lot of people coming here DON'T LIKE 4E, I don't know what to tell you. All I know is, other than on the retro boards, Canonfire! Candlekeep and Penandpapergames, some of us have NO PLACE to go if we want to discuss 3x (or earlier) editions in peace, without a gang of trolls mucking up our discussion.
You know what's funny? Until someone pops into a non-4e forum thread and starts saying stuff like "You're Wrong! 4e (or WotC) doesn't [insert whatever points was made]!" the threads are pretty civil. People are so freaking sensitive about that game and how people perceive it, it makes me wonder if the stridency of their defense isn't telling about how they really feel, deep down inside. People who are truly, genuinely 100% happy about something generally aren't that defensive, in my experience. They usually just let it go, knowing their product is fine, and not having to run around countering every critical comment about it.
And, frankly, as long as we DON"T post personal insults, why should you care if some of the people here want to say negative stuff about 4e? Who cares? Their opinion shouldn't invoke one iota of emotion in you. If you get bent out of shape because someone wants to cap on a inanimate set of rules that have no feelings or consciousness, I don't know what to say. The 4e RULES don't care if people dislike them, they have no feelings.
And, again, where have any of the extreme pro-4e sites created a safe corner on their forums for Paizo talk? Oh, wait, they haven't. Not even remotely. So, unless you're posting on those sites asking why they aren't going out of their way to be nice to Pathfinder, your complaints here are a bit hypocritical, ya think?
Here's the point. Paizo doesn't publish 4e materials. If I want to say I dislike something about 4e anywhere OTHER than the 4e section, and I want to have a discussion with like minded individuals, what I shouldn't have to do is consider the "feelings" of certain 4e fans (aptly called 4vengers) who take every small criticism of 4e as a personal attack. I should be able to criticize WotC's business and marketing practices without having to hear how "bitter" I am.
And, again, I ask: where's the hue and cry for a "Pathfinder safe" corner of the WotC boards? OR EnWorld? Or RPGNet? Paizo did a nice thing allowing a corner of their universe to exist to discuss their "rival's" product, with zero reciprocation. If it shocks you or offends youthat a lot of people coming here DON'T LIKE 4E, I don't know what to tell you. All I know is, other than on the retro boards, Canonfire! Candlekeep and Penandpapergames, some of us have NO PLACE to go if we want to discuss 3x (or earlier) editions in peace, without a gang of trolls mucking up our discussion.
You know what's funny? Until someone pops into a non-4e forum thread and starts saying stuff like "You're Wrong! 4e (or WotC) doesn't [insert whatever points was made]!" the threads are pretty civil. People are so freaking sensitive about that game and how people perceive it, it makes me wonder if the stridency of their defense isn't telling about how they really feel, deep down inside. People who are truly, genuinely 100% happy about something generally aren't that defensive, in my experience. They usually just let it go, knowing their product is fine, and not having to run around countering every critical comment about it.
And, frankly, as long as we DON"T post personal insults, why should you care if some of the people here want to say negative stuff about 4e? Who cares? Their opinion shouldn't invoke one iota of emotion in you. If you get bent out of shape because someone wants to cap on a inanimate set of rules that have no feelings or consciousness, I don't know what to say. The 4e RULES don't care if people dislike them, they have no feelings.
And, again, where have any of the extreme pro-4e sites created a safe corner on their forums for Paizo talk? Oh, wait, they haven't. Not even remotely. So, unless you're posting on those sites asking why they aren't going out of their way to be nice to Pathfinder, your complaints here are a bit hypocritical, ya think?
Very well said.
Kettle, Black and all that. If you want to complain about 4E and how good 3.x is then you have a perfectly good haven in the 3.x or Pathfinder sections. This section has nothing to do with 4E or Pathfinder for that matter. It deals with Gamer Life. Everyone has a right to be here and to discuss their views.
If I posted something anti-pathfinder I wouldn't be surprised if someone came along and did the same thing. Heck if I posted anti-pathfinder in the 4E section I wouldn't be surprised by people coming along to defend it.
So if someone posts an anti-4E thread then I wouldn't be surprised if someone came along and defended it. I can't speak for other '4vengers' but I took up the mantle because I was sick of seeing the same things repeated without anyone to correct the misconceptions. Why? Because I got tired of using those misconceptions repeated by people that NEVER EVEN PLAYED THE GAME.
They read about it on a forum and therefore drew their opinion from that. I just counter those threads now with a second opinion that the person can read and just made they will go "Well, hmm. Maybe I should actually just try the game out to get my own opinion."
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I've played the game. I like the rules set, as a super heroes game or maybe a dystopian psionics dark future type thing, but I abhor it as a fantasy game that calls itself "D&D". Killed too many sacred cows and put a bullet in the head of a campaign setting I've loved since Greenwood started writing articles for The Dragon way back when. Sorry, but no amount of strident whining on your part is going to change my opinion there.
And I'm still waiting for all the links of you and Scott and a few others going on the WotC forums, EnWorld or RPGNet and telling them to behave. I know in your perception, the posters there are oh so mature and even handed, but, frankly, I find them 10 times as annoying and rude as anything I've seen here. Which is why I don't POST THERE. It isn't my job or my mission in life to make them like/respect/say nice things about Paizo. I don't really care what they think.
And, who cares if some people have misconceptions about the freaking game? Or if they "ever played it"? What difference does it make? How does that effect YOUR enjoyment of it? If you have so much time on your hands that you can run around the internet "correcting" everyone who thinks 4e is "based on an MMO" or "doesn't support role playing", I really think you need a hobby. Seriously.
...why should you care if some of the people here want to say negative stuff about 4e?
Because a majority of the negative stuff being said is untrue. Bringing up valid complaints is one thing; trotting out the same, old, tired "OMZG!!! 4E is WOW!!!" comments is just stupid. Unfortunately, the bulk of negative 4E posts are the latter type.
What I'd like to know is this: If an individual hates 4E or hates WotC, why would said individual devote time to posting about them. I will never play 3E again if I can help it, and I have zero interest in Pathfinder RPG. I can't remember the last time I made a comment regarding either of them.
Wow, HD, last two posts, razor sharp - nice.
I'll back that.
And, who cares if some people have misconceptions about the freaking game? Or if they "ever played it"? What difference does it make? How does that effect YOUR enjoyment of it? If you have so much time on your hands that you can run around the internet "correcting" everyone who thinks 4e is "based on an MMO" or "doesn't support role playing", I really think you need a hobby. Seriously.
If you have so much time on your hands that you can run around the internet "complaining" that 4E is "based on an MMO" or "doesn't support role playing", I really think you need a hobby. Seriously. :)
If 4E fans cannot even admit that the SC math is broken without trying to spin it, why should one believe their other claims?
Because a majority of the negative stuff being said is untrue...
on the internet.
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I haven't said much of anything about 4e either. I just don't see the point of getting your panties in a bunch if people post the same old tired arguments on either side. It's been a year now, if some fools want to keep beating a dead horse, whatever. I just don't understand the need to continually "correct" them. Again, who cares? How does it detract form someone's enjoyment at the table?
I've had fun with 4e, there's nothing inherently "wrong" with it. I'm just a grumpy grognard, set in my ways, in love with Vancian magic and Gygaxian sensibilities. I play in Dungeon Delves one of my gaming group runs, and I have fun. I just have no interest in investing my $$$ in the rules set.
I'm not boycotting WotC either. As soon as I have some expendable income, I was planning on picking up the Star Wars Saga rules.
Look at all of my posts in the 4e threads, and I doubt you'll find anything terribly negative about the rules set, although I have made an occasional comment about my distaste for some marketing tactics and the Forgotten Realms conversion (which I think were justified in relation to the latter, as even some 4e fans didn't care for the Realms changes). I'm just wondering why, on a web site that isn't particularly "WotC friendly", people have a need to try and make everyone "behave".
Damn, just ignore the posts and move on. There is too much good stuff going on here (Scott's RotRL conversions and the incredibly helpful "4e for Dummies" thread, for example) to keep wasting energy on some edition war holdouts who don't realize the cease fire has been ordered and life has moved on...
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And, who cares if some people have misconceptions about the freaking game? Or if they "ever played it"? What difference does it make? How does that effect YOUR enjoyment of it? If you have so much time on your hands that you can run around the internet "correcting" everyone who thinks 4e is "based on an MMO" or "doesn't support role playing", I really think you need a hobby. Seriously.If you have so much time on your hands that you can run around the internet "complaining" that 4E is "based on an MMO" or "doesn't support role playing", I really think you need a hobby. Seriously. :)
I agree with this 100% as well! :)
Here's a satirical take on the WotC/Paizo relation.
Well said, houstonderek.
In fact, why is there even a 4e subforum here? Paizo doesn't publish anything 4e. They never have. 4e has nothing to do with anything Paizo does.
I'm a L5R fan, a Serenety fan, a WoD fan. Are there subforums for those games? No, there's just "other RPGs" to lump everything together. 4e fans get a huge concession.
I guess there was a time when Paizo wasn't sure which way they'd go, but that time is over. Maybe it's time to stop giving that game preferred treatment. Paizo doesn't work with wotc. It would make more sense to have a Dark Eye section, because Paizo does work with the creators of that game.
Here's a satirical take on the WotC/Paizo relation.
How do you know it's satirical?
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I kind of like the 4e forum. Like I said, I play it on occasion, and every once in a while I have a question I need answered, and I don't want to go on other boards to get the info, frankly.
The 4e fans that post on these boards do know their stuff and are quite friendly about answering genuine questions about the rules set, for the most part.
Well said, houstonderek.
In fact, why is there even a 4e subforum here? Paizo doesn't publish anything 4e. They never have. 4e has nothing to do with anything Paizo does.
I'm a L5R fan, a Serenety fan, a WoD fan. Are there subforums for those games? No, there's just "other RPGs" to lump everything together. 4e fans get a huge concession.
I guess there was a time when Paizo wasn't sure which way they'd go, but that time is over. Maybe it's time to stop giving that game preferred treatment. Paizo doesn't work with wotc. It would make more sense to have a Dark Eye section, because Paizo does work with the creators of that game.
Yes, let's remove the 4e section. And get a Serenity one instead.
Shiny.
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I kind of like the 4e forum. Like I said, I play it on occasion, and every once in a while I have a question I need answered, and I don't want to go on other boards to get the info, frankly.
The 4e fans that post on these boards do know their stuff and are quite friendly about answering genuine questions about the rules set, for the most part.
Agreed. This is a one-stop shop board for me, other than Knights & Knaves (which I rarely post in). If honest questions are asked about 4e you get advice/answers/tips/tricks for people who obvious not only know the rules but really like the game. I would be saddened to see that part of the board removed.
S.
And, frankly, as long as we DON"T post personal insults, why should you care if some of the people here want to say negative stuff about 4e? Who cares? Their opinion shouldn't invoke one iota of emotion in you. If you get bent out of shape because someone wants to cap on a inanimate set of rules that have no feelings or consciousness, I don't know what to say. The 4e RULES don't care if people dislike them, they have no feelings.
Replace "4e" with "Pathfinder" and tell me you still agree with all of that.
I'd love to see KaeYoss agree with that, too.
And heck, beyond that, why does the alteration of an inanimate set of rules provoke emotional reactions from some Paizo fans? Why do WotC's business decisions (that clearly don't even affect most of the people complaining about them here) provoke emotional reactions from some Paizo fans?
More importantly, though, it's rare that someone's negative opinion of 4th Edition does invoke an iota of emotion. If that were par for the course, it would be hazardous to a 4e fan's health to visit much of the Paizo boards. But the misinformation that gets spread around is disturbing. I'm really tempted to say that if you get to crap on 4th Edition, fans of 4th Edition are well within their rights to respond to that with a defense of the game. And if you don't want to be criticized for dumping on 4th Edition, you waive your right to criticize others for defending it. Is that what you'd like?
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Dude, there are things I don't/won't like about Pathfinder (many of which are problems I have with 3x in general, frankly - 1e AD&D is my game of choice when I can find a group willing to play it), so I may be the wrong person to use as an example here.
And, as you know, I don't dump on 4e. I just wonder if it's worth the effort to continually engage people who won't change their minds and don't care if they're "wrong" about an aspect of 4e (or Pathfinder, or 3x, or AD&D).
:)
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Why do WotC's business decisions (that clearly don't even affect most of the people complaining about them here) provoke emotional reactions from some Paizo fans?
I want to buy a PDF of Planes of Chaos. I can't. I'm unhappy. I consider the decision that led to this situation to be stupid. The decision was made because the company in question decided to hurt old customers in order to protect the new ones. I'm within my rights to wage a holy war against WotC, 4ed, and anybody who supports that debacle which led to my current inability to legally obtain that PDF. And before somebody mentions eBay, go and check the prices for rare books/boxes.
I kind of like the 4e forum. Like I said, I play it on occasion, and every once in a while I have a question I need answered, and I don't want to go on other boards to get the info, frankly.
The 4e fans that post on these boards do know their stuff and are quite friendly about answering genuine questions about the rules set, for the most part.
So what about my Serenity questions? Why don't I get a Serenety/Cortex forum here?
And heck, beyond that, why does the alteration of an inanimate set of rules provoke emotional reactions from some Paizo fans?
You wouldn't understand.
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So what about my Serenity questions? Why don't I get a Serenety/Cortex forum here?I kind of like the 4e forum. Like I said, I play it on occasion, and every once in a while I have a question I need answered, and I don't want to go on other boards to get the info, frankly.
The 4e fans that post on these boards do know their stuff and are quite friendly about answering genuine questions about the rules set, for the most part.
Why not? We can have forums for everything from 1e Traveller to Exalted, I suppose :)
...More importantly, though, it's rare that someone's negative opinion of 4th Edition does invoke an iota of emotion...
Then what the frack is all the fuss about? Seems like people are getting pretty emotional.
Rag on Pathfinder all you like dude. I play d20 (any of its ilk) because of support not because I think it's a great system.
And for the record, had Gary Gygax had the good sense to use multiple d6s and get a good bell curve I'd be a happy guy, I tell you!
Why 4e and not Serenity? Well let's see, 4e has tens to hundreds of thousands of players. Serenity has what? five players total, and they are all in the same group? So there just isn't enough interest to warrent the bother of an entire subforum for those few players. While 4e has a large enough following that it is worth it to Paizo, the online store, to have a subforum for them even if Paizo, the Roleplaying Company, doesn't support the system directly.
So what about my Serenity questions? Why don't I get a Serenety/Cortex forum here?I kind of like the 4e forum. Like I said, I play it on occasion, and every once in a while I have a question I need answered, and I don't want to go on other boards to get the info, frankly.
The 4e fans that post on these boards do know their stuff and are quite friendly about answering genuine questions about the rules set, for the most part.
It's an Alliance plot!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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a Serenety fanI like that game. It is good.
[Pulls head in before the shelling starts again]
Really? I could never really wrap my brain around Cortex. (pun intended) Maybe if I sat down and actually played it vs reading it it would make more sense. I bought the RPG for the 'bible' I ended up -not- buying BSG because it didn't have enough 'behind the scenes'. I think that book really needed the entire series, then suggestions on playing in universe.
Drifting more off topic...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I want to buy a PDF of Planes of Chaos. I can't. I'm unhappy. I consider the decision that led to this situation to be stupid. The decision was made because the company in question decided to hurt old customers in order to protect the new ones. I'm within my rights to wage a holy war against WotC, 4ed, and anybody who supports that debacle which led to my current inability to legally obtain that PDF. And before somebody mentions eBay, go and check the prices for rare books/boxes.
It was a bad decision, yes. In fact I agree it was stupid, short sighted, narrow, and damaging to their reputation with a significant customer base with disposable income.
Considering the people currently fighting a 'holy war' enjoy sending other people to blow themselves up, you might want to be less extreme.
"Never blame on malice, what can be explained by stupidity."
ebay actually factors quite nicely into the problem with the PDFs. Because the market supply has been severely curtailed, the prices go upwards. To use a non-pdf example: Try finding a White Wolf Ravenloft Tarroka deck. Anywhere.
Do I understand the anger at not being able to get a PDF of 'Volo's guide to all things Magical?' Yes.
Does this mean WotC lost a sale from me? Yes.
Does this require a 'hatred of all things Hasbro?' not so much.
Do I understand the anger at not being able to get a PDF of 'Volo's guide to all things Magical?' Yes.
Does this mean WotC lost a sale from me? Yes.
Does this require a 'hatred of all things Hasbro?' not so much.
Who is the bigger fool, the fool, or the one who follows him?
I'd not call it hatred of all things hasbro, but I am not about to trust that company anymore, and given how stupid they acted with marketing (pdf pulled, anti-3E propaganda) and with rules (not playtested SC rules, failed fix in errata) I don't put much faith in anything else they produce.
I hate that company so much, because they won't let me give more money to them! Damn them!
I hate that company so much, because they won't let me give more money to them! Damn them!
By your logic discrimination (refusing to sell something to a specific ethnicity or gender) is no biggie - you just do not let them give money to you.
It's, of course, not the same, but yes, knowing WotC could sell me the pdfs I want, but refuses to do so for no logical reason other than to promote a game system I don't like, is reason enough to dislike them.
I hate that company so much, because they won't let me give more money to them! Damn them!
Purchase extra Insider subscriptions and give them away to people who don't know what they're missing?
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OK, the holy war was a hyperbole. I shouldn't post right after I decide to buy a PDF I need for tonight's game and then suddenly remembering why I can't do that anymore.
Still, if 4e crowd wants a nice sandbox where moderators will run after everybody who disapproves of their game / company you have gleemax, enworld, rpg.net. And more.
And you want a place where 4e and pf are both treated with equal respect and dignity, there's the Den. Paizil fael and 4e fael are both fael and get smacked equally, right down to "who is a bigger fael: Buhlman or Mearls ?" threads. That's equality ! ;)
Still, if 4e crowd wants a nice sandbox where moderators will run after everybody who disapproves of their game / company you have gleemax, enworld, rpg.net. And more.
And you want a place where 4e and pf are both treated with equal respect and dignity, there's the Den. Paizil fael and 4e fael are both fael and get smacked equally, right down to "who is a bigger fael: Buhlman or Mearls ?" threads. That's equality ! ;)
Right on both counts. And 3.5 gets ripped to shreds as well.
...
I think you may have been folded into troubles here on the Paizo boards that are way bigger than your post.
Trolls mucking stuff up ain't right, I agree, but it happens everywhere. The trick is that Trolls aren't trolls until you respond to them and get into a back and forth that drags a thread down.
In the past, I observed that Paizonians tended to flag and ignore trolls themselves without any moderation. It worked well - very well. Alas, those days seem long gone and we now see some very reactionary posting from both PF and 4E fanbases.
Anyways, don't let HD's post sit badly. Like I said, he's speaking to the issue I suspect, rather than you specifically.
He can correct me if I'm wrong....
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*Looks around, making sure this isn't a politics/world events thread*
Yep, always the issue, never the person.
*Strolls back out, whistling, avoiding eye contact*
Seriously, though, I apologize if you thought I was getting on you specifically, Berik. I think you just kind of got caught in the crossfire.
:)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd not call it hatred of all things hasbro, but I am not about to trust that company anymore, and given how stupid they acted with marketing (pdf pulled, anti-3E propaganda) and with rules (not playtested SC rules, failed fix in errata) I don't put much faith in anything else they produce.
*snort* I don't trust *any* company. I've my Paizo PDFs on my hard drive and on a couple of DVDs. Same goes for any PDF I've bought. I'm irritated at Catalyst because Strat Ops is *still* at the printer (oooh, they flew a few copies to Origins, how nice) and it is 3-6 months late at this point. I use all their services, but 'Trust then Verify' is a watchword anymore.