So, my Curse of the Crimson Throne character died at the beginning of Seven Days to the Grave (see how here) and I'm making up a new character.
My idea is to play a rogue/sorcerer with the Undead bloodline. After only 1 or 2 sorcerer levels, I'm taking rogue levels the rest of the way. When I'm in flanking, I'll be able to add sneak attack to my bloodline-granted touch power. That is, I get sneak damage on a melee touch attack, which should connect with just about anything. However, it's always a standard action to use the touch, so I'll only ever get one such touch attack per round.
Any thoughts on this build? Anyone tried anything like it? It seems like I could get into Dragon Disciple from this fairly easy, but that doesn't seem to fit the "touch of death" theme. Thoughts?
Sounds interesting. I don't think anyone's going to say it will be a powerful build at high levels because it won't. Sounds fun though.
I might consider going far enough in Sorc so you can go into Arcane Trickster.
Don't you need the draconic bloodline to go into Dragon Disciple as a sorcerer?
At high levels, the one attack per round will be a limiting factor. One thing you could try to get around it is buying scrolls/wands of Chill Touch with a higher caster level. Chill touch is a necromancy spell, so it fits your bloodline theme. It also gives one attack/caster level. One the first round, you activate the item, move into flanking and attack. One the next round, you make a full attack with iteratives, making touch attacks against your enemy.
Since you actually have levels of sorcerer, if you can find a way to boost your caster level, you could also do that with your own spells. Two things that come to mind are Arcane Trickster and (if Complete Arcane is allowed) Practiced Apprentice (a feat that gives +4 to caster level). (Looking at the actual requirements, you'd need Sorcerer 6/Rogue 3 to qualifiy for Arcane Trickster, so that doesn't really fit in with your plans.)
If you're going with a touch attack to be more powerful (less miss chance means more effective touch attacks) then you may be barking up the wrong tree.
As you pointed out, it's always a standard action.
If you want death-dealing power, make the maximum number of attacks that you can in a round and sneak attack them all - that means hasted iterative dual-wielding attacks for potentially hundreds of points of damage when you're high enough level with good enough feats and magic.
A single touch attack + sneak damage will never compare to that.
Now, if you're doing it for flavor, then sure, go for it. Sounds like fun.
If you're going with a touch attack to be more powerful (less miss chance means more effective touch attacks) then you may be barking up the wrong tree.
As you pointed out, it's always a standard action.
If you want death-dealing power, make the maximum number of attacks that you can in a round and sneak attack them all - that means hasted iterative dual-wielding attacks for potentially hundreds of points of damage when you're high enough level with good enough feats and magic.
A single touch attack + sneak damage will never compare to that.
Now, if you're doing it for flavor, then sure, go for it. Sounds like fun.
This. The Tarrasque is correct.
Also, you might consider a Necromancer instead as they get the same level 1 ability and a Rogue might get more mileage out if the Int synergy than Cha.
Thanks all for the thoughts. Necromancer might fit better. I've done the two-weapon multi-sneak-attacking rogue in the past--under this same DM, actually--and I know he'll probably be opposed. Plus, this game has a much lower-level focus than that other game, so the less powerful rogue-type should be fitting as well as fun.
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Yeah, go with fun over optimized! In my campaigns, sneak attacks only work on the first hit. It makes the player a bit more thief-ish from the good ol' days. So he opted to grab a level of pathfinder beta evoker for the unlimited energy ray with a ranged touch attack...if you only get one mega-hit make it an easy one!
Thanks all for the thoughts. Necromancer might fit better. I've done the two-weapon multi-sneak-attacking rogue in the past--under this same DM, actually--and I know he'll probably be opposed. Plus, this game has a much lower-level focus than that other game, so the less powerful rogue-type should be fitting as well as fun.
If you still want to get the most mileage possible out of the idea, look into the Spring Attack feat line and just stay mobile. Play a coward or some such.
You'll always be pretty suboptimal in combat, but maybe you can make your character shine in other ways.
Alternately, if you just like the mechanic and aren't tied down by a given 'character vision' then drop the Wiz/Sorc levels. Take Use Magic Device, maybe Skill Focus if you want, and carry around wands of various melee touch spells like Inflict X Wounds or Vampiric Touch. Activating a Wand does not provoke AoO in PF-Beta.
This lets you roll on up into combat as a viable Standard Action option. Since you've invested a lot less than 2 levels into the idea, you still have plenty of resources to build out a more normal Full Attack progression. The focus on UMD also lets you be more flexible, can carry around Cure Light Wounds wands just as easily as Inflicts.
Thanks all for the thoughts. Necromancer might fit better. I've done the two-weapon multi-sneak-attacking rogue in the past--under this same DM, actually--and I know he'll probably be opposed. Plus, this game has a much lower-level focus than that other game, so the less powerful rogue-type should be fitting as well as fun.If you still want to get the most mileage possible out of the idea, look into the Spring Attack feat line and just stay mobile. Play a coward or some such.
You'll always be pretty suboptimal in combat, but maybe you can make your character shine in other ways.
Alternately, if you just like the mechanic and aren't tied down by a given 'character vision' then drop the Wiz/Sorc levels. Take Use Magic Device, maybe Skill Focus if you want, and carry around wands of various melee touch spells like Inflict X Wounds or Vampiric Touch. Activating a Wand does not provoke AoO in PF-Beta.
This lets you roll on up into combat as a viable Standard Action option. Since you've invested a lot less than 2 levels into the idea, you still have plenty of resources to build out a more normal Full Attack progression. The focus on UMD also lets you be more flexible, can carry around Cure Light Wounds wands just as easily as Inflicts.
I can't find a clear answer for this in the rules. Does the wand charge your hand, requiring a separate action to deliver the touch or does the wand itself deliver the touch? If the wand delivers the touch will it hold the charge if you miss?
Aside: Don't forget shocking grasp; cheap, no save, +3 to hit if the target has much metal on them.
Thanks all for the thoughts. Necromancer might fit better. I've done the two-weapon multi-sneak-attacking rogue in the past--under this same DM, actually--and I know he'll probably be opposed. Plus, this game has a much lower-level focus than that other game, so the less powerful rogue-type should be fitting as well as fun.If you still want to get the most mileage possible out of the idea, look into the Spring Attack feat line and just stay mobile. Play a coward or some such.
You'll always be pretty suboptimal in combat, but maybe you can make your character shine in other ways.
Alternately, if you just like the mechanic and aren't tied down by a given 'character vision' then drop the Wiz/Sorc levels. Take Use Magic Device, maybe Skill Focus if you want, and carry around wands of various melee touch spells like Inflict X Wounds or Vampiric Touch. Activating a Wand does not provoke AoO in PF-Beta.
This lets you roll on up into combat as a viable Standard Action option. Since you've invested a lot less than 2 levels into the idea, you still have plenty of resources to build out a more normal Full Attack progression. The focus on UMD also lets you be more flexible, can carry around Cure Light Wounds wands just as easily as Inflicts.
I can't find a clear answer for this in the rules. Does the wand charge your hand, requiring a separate action to deliver the touch or does the wand itself deliver the touch? If the wand delivers the touch will it hold the charge if you miss?
Aside: Don't forget shocking grasp; cheap, no save, +3 to hit if the target has much metal on them.
I don't think I've found a clear answer on that when I've looked either, but here's how I see it.
If you cast a non-touch spell, say, Invisibility, and you want to touch an enemy, you have to do it in two different standard actions. Invisibility this round, touch the enemy next round
But if you cast any touch spell, such as Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Inflict X Wounds, etc., you can cast the spell and touch your opponent all as part of one standard action.
That's weird, but it's how it works. Touch spells would be nearly useless if it didn't work that way.
Wands are spell-completion items. With a word, they let you complete a partially cast spell. But the wands themselves are not weapons. So as I see it, you use a wand to finish a Chill Touch spell and now your hand is imbued with the energy, and you can still touch your opponent because that's how this particular spell works. The wand doesn't get the spell's energy because the wand is not the weapon, nor is the spell designed to touch the enemy with a stick, regardless of whether you cast the spell or it comes from a wand.
If you still want to get the most mileage possible out of the idea, look into the Spring Attack feat line and just stay mobile. Play a coward or some such.
Thanks all for the thoughts. Necromancer might fit better. I've done the two-weapon multi-sneak-attacking rogue in the past--under this same DM, actually--and I know he'll probably be opposed. Plus, this game has a much lower-level focus than that other game, so the less powerful rogue-type should be fitting as well as fun.
If you're suggesting using Spring Attack with a touch spell, I'm not sure this works.
Spring Attack specifically says "make a melee attack". This is quite different than "make a magical attack" or "make a standard attack" or "make whatever attack you want".
It's highly questionable that Spring attack can be used to deliver a touch spell.
Me, I'd say that it is too much in one round to cast a touch spell (wand or otherwise), spring forward, touch a foe, and spring back. But I might allow you to deliver a held charge from a touch spell you cast in a previous round, though you might find making only one attack per two rounds to be a bit tedious.
I wonder if any of that is supported, one way or another, in any official FAQ?
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Yeah, go with fun over optimized! In my campaigns, sneak attacks only work on the first hit. It makes the player a bit more thief-ish from the good ol' days. So he opted to grab a level of pathfinder beta evoker for the unlimited energy ray with a ranged touch attack...if you only get one mega-hit make it an easy one!
He could have done even better by taking the magic talent to take ray of frost, keeping the rogue level.
If you're suggesting using Spring Attack with a touch spell, I'm not sure this works.
Spring Attack specifically says "make a melee attack". This is quite different than "make a magical attack" or "make a standard attack" or "make whatever attack you want".
It's highly questionable that Spring attack can be used to deliver a touch spell.
Me, I'd say that it is too much in one round to cast a touch spell (wand or otherwise), spring forward, touch a foe, and spring back. But I might allow you to deliver a held charge from a touch spell you cast in a previous round, though you might find making only one attack per two rounds to be a bit tedious.
I wonder if any of that is supported, one way or another, in any official FAQ?
I read Arbitus's suggestion as: If you want to stay with the Wizard/Rogue idea, consider Spring Attack. If, however, you just want a melee touch attack then try a pure Rogue with a wand of Shocking Grasp etc.
In that scenario, Spring Attack is being used to deliver the melee touch attack "Grave Hand" granted to a Necromancer at level 1. Since Grave Hand doesn't require you to cast a spell or trigger an item I don't see why it wouldn't work for a Spring Attack.
Yeah, go with fun over optimized! In my campaigns, sneak attacks only work on the first hit. It makes the player a bit more thief-ish from the good ol' days. So he opted to grab a level of pathfinder beta evoker for the unlimited energy ray with a ranged touch attack...if you only get one mega-hit make it an easy one!He could have done even better by taking the magic talent to take ray of frost, keeping the rogue level.
It is more difficult to qualify for sneak attack damage using a ranged attack - ranged attacks don't allow you to flank. Also, magic talent only works a limited number of times per day whereas Grave Hand can be used every round.