I have always been a fan of the paladin. Ever since that picture in the AD&D 1e "A Paladin in Hell". Unearthed Arcana kinda took away the glamor of the class for me by making them a sub of cavalier. Second edition's paladin handbook made me happy...but then 3e came along and declawed the class.
I REALLY like the changes I see here. I am looking forward to playing a paladin again. (Much to the chagrin of my gaming group I am sure)
Thank you playtesters and developers.
I WILL be purchasing this game for certain now.
This is definitely my favorite preview so far. One of the weakest classes can now stand on its own two feat again.
LOL, why is she a "shiny happy people" in mithral full plate when she has no DEX mod. She really outta upgrade to adamantium.
Hey, does anyone know if the new rule that Smite Evil lasts until the foe is dead means:
1. You pick the target and your next attack gets the smite bonus, but that uses it up - the part that says "making this ability useful even if you miss with your first attack" sounds a bit like holding the charge, which may or may not mean that the "charge" of Smite Evil is expended (gone) when you finally hit the first time.
--or--
2. You pick the target and every attack you make from now until he dies gets the damage bonus - the part that says "smite evil really should last until your evil foe is vanquished" sounds like you use the ability one time and every attack gets the bonus until the enemy dies.
The wording could be interpreted either way. I really hope it's #1. I like it better that way.
Count me as another who likes the changes. very nice
I wonder what happens to the smite if the designated opponent escapes, say runs or teleports away. Will it still be active if the opponent is encountered again later?
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This is definitely my favorite preview so far. One of the weakest classes can now stand on its own two feat again.
LOL, why is she a "shiny happy people" in mithral full plate when she has no DEX mod. She really outta upgrade to adamantium.
Hey, does anyone know if the new rule that Smite Evil lasts until the foe is dead means:
1. You pick the target and your next attack gets the smite bonus, but that uses it up - the part that says "making this ability useful even if you miss with your first attack" sounds a bit like holding the charge, which may or may not mean that the "charge" of Smite Evil is expended (gone) when you finally hit the first time.
--or--
2. You pick the target and every attack you make from now until he dies gets the damage bonus - the part that says "smite evil really should last until your evil foe is vanquished" sounds like you use the ability one time and every attack gets the bonus until the enemy dies.
The wording could be interpreted either way. I really hope it's #1. I like it better that way.
I am currently implementing it as #2 in my game. It's not very good if it's just for one attack, i.e. holding a charge. I mean twice a day at 9th level for +9/+18 on 1 attack each time? Why bother? Granted, it does turn solo bad guys into mincemeat the other way. At least twice per day. Note to self: More minions.
This is definitely my favorite preview so far. One of the weakest classes can now stand on its own two feat again.
LOL, why is she a "shiny happy people" in mithral full plate when she has no DEX mod. She really outta upgrade to adamantium.
Hey, does anyone know if the new rule that Smite Evil lasts until the foe is dead means:
1. You pick the target and your next attack gets the smite bonus, but that uses it up - the part that says "making this ability useful even if you miss with your first attack" sounds a bit like holding the charge, which may or may not mean that the "charge" of Smite Evil is expended (gone) when you finally hit the first time.
--or--
2. You pick the target and every attack you make from now until he dies gets the damage bonus - the part that says "smite evil really should last until your evil foe is vanquished" sounds like you use the ability one time and every attack gets the bonus until the enemy dies.
The wording could be interpreted either way. I really hope it's #1. I like it better that way.
It seems to me like a 'Lock-On Target'. Which is, Seelah can use Smite Evil on 5 enemies per day - and her Smite lasts until those enemies are dead (or gone away).
This is partially supported by this sentence:"The aura of justice allows Seelah to spend two uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies within 10 feet. She must use this ability right away and it lasts for 1 minute, but more on that later."
Basicaly, her allies share some of her powers, but not all - the bonus on them lasts only 10 rounds, not until the foe stays dead.
Just my 2c.
My big question: why no adamantine weapon if she's got multiple feats devoted to sundering? Hardness can really put a dent in your ability to slice and dice your opponent's gear, after all.
As always, because they build the stats to match the artwork, not to optimize.
This is definitely my favorite preview so far. One of the weakest classes can now stand on its own two feat again.
LOL, why is she a "shiny happy people" in mithral full plate when she has no DEX mod. She really outta upgrade to adamantium.
Hey, does anyone know if the new rule that Smite Evil lasts until the foe is dead means:
1. You pick the target and your next attack gets the smite bonus, but that uses it up - the part that says "making this ability useful even if you miss with your first attack" sounds a bit like holding the charge, which may or may not mean that the "charge" of Smite Evil is expended (gone) when you finally hit the first time.
--or--
2. You pick the target and every attack you make from now until he dies gets the damage bonus - the part that says "smite evil really should last until your evil foe is vanquished" sounds like you use the ability one time and every attack gets the bonus until the enemy dies.
The wording could be interpreted either way. I really hope it's #1. I like it better that way.
I am currently implementing it as #2 in my game. It's not very good if it's just for one attack, i.e. holding a charge. I mean twice a day at 9th level for +9/+18 on 1 attack each time? Why bother? Granted, it does turn solo bad guys into mincemeat the other way. At least twice per day. Note to self: More minions.
I thought it was very plain.
Of all the changes, smite evil was perhaps the most contentious on the message boards. Everyone seemed to have an idea of how this iconic ability should work. In the end, it was decided that smite evil really should last until your evil foe is vanquished, making this ability useful even if you miss with your first attack. But we did not stop there, the amount of bonus damage dealt (that is, 1 point per paladin level) doubles if the selected foe is an evil outsider, dragon, or undead. Smite attacks also ignore any damage reduction the target might have. Finally, the paladin is protected from harm gaining a deflection bonus to her AC equal to her Charisma modifier against attacks made by the target. Suffice to say, you do not want to be on the receiving end of a paladin's smite evil.
The bolded section clearly states it should last until your evil foe is vanquished, not until you hit him with it. Vanquished = dead/slain/splattered/gooey/disembowled/destroyed/etc.
I do like, very much, this Paladin. Nobody in my games ever ever wanted to play the Paladin. At best, they did fighter/cleric and called it a Paladin. Why? Because Paladin's were a pain to deal with (as a player) and had nothing to make it worth while. I really like the fact they got rid of the required bonded companion. And it seems like all companions follow the same rules now (Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Paladain) which *really* simplifies things. Kudos.
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I mean twice a day at 9th level for +9/+18 on 1 attack each time?
You have a lot of paladins with Cha 28 at 9th level?
Sidebar: Jason, Seelah has Cha 18 and is 13th level, which would give her 10 lay on hands per day by the forum version of the ability, which is what she has listed. Except that she also has Extra Lay on Hands. Can you verify that her lay on hands per day is listed correctly?
Also wondering if her single-target detect evil is actually a full-round action now instead of a move action, or if Jason is just using a shorthand there to explain that "it's faster than it used to be."
I mean twice a day at 9th level for +9/+18 on 1 attack each time?You have a lot of paladins with Cha 28 at 9th level?
Sidebar: Jason, Seelah has Cha 18 and is 13th level, which would give her 10 lay on hands per day by the forum version of the ability, which is what she has listed. Except that she also has Extra Lay on Hands. Can you verify that her lay on hands per day is listed correctly?
Also wondering if her single-target detect evil is actually a full-round action now instead of a move action, or if Jason is just using a shorthand there to explain that "it's faster than it used to be."
Yeah,
Didn't notice that. That has to be a typo. 13/2 = 6.5, so 6 lay on's from level. CHA Mod = +4 (from 18). 4 + 6 = 10. Extra Lay On Hands isn't included in that total. Of course whether it's 1 or 4 that's missing I'm not sure, depends on how extra lay on hands ended up working (One per day or +CHA Mod per day).
Director of Games
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Sidebar: Jason, Seelah has Cha 18 and is 13th level, which would give her 10 lay on hands per day by the forum version of the ability, which is what she has listed. Except that she also has Extra Lay on Hands. Can you verify that her lay on hands per day is listed correctly?
I will double check this in the morning, but I think it should be 12/day, not 10/day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I mean twice a day at 9th level for +9/+18 on 1 attack each time?You have a lot of paladins with Cha 28 at 9th level?
Sidebar: Jason, Seelah has Cha 18 and is 13th level, which would give her 10 lay on hands per day by the forum version of the ability, which is what she has listed. Except that she also has Extra Lay on Hands. Can you verify that her lay on hands per day is listed correctly?
Also wondering if her single-target detect evil is actually a full-round action now instead of a move action, or if Jason is just using a shorthand there to explain that "it's faster than it used to be."
Mea culpa. I meant damage. Thew use of the slash to indicate against the "overwhelming evil" category should have been clearer.
Sidebar: Jason, Seelah has Cha 18 and is 13th level, which would give her 10 lay on hands per day by the forum version of the ability, which is what she has listed. Except that she also has Extra Lay on Hands. Can you verify that her lay on hands per day is listed correctly?I will double check this in the morning, but I think it should be 12/day, not 10/day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thanks for getting it up on schedule, despite paizocon craziness this weekend.
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I would also like to point out, just from personal experience, that the last thing a fiend wants to fight is a 9th level paladin of Saerenrae. There's nothing like the combination of Improved Critical, Scimitar, Smite and Holy through Divine Bond to really f$#* up your day when you're a devil. When he casts Bless Weapon to automatically confirm criticals and OUCH!
The only thing worse is a vampire facing a high level Paladin (particularly Seelah with her Extra Lay on Hands). Then you have the Smite+Lay on Hands combo for utter sickness. Touch attack for (d6+4)/2 levels has a LOT of damage potential. Throw in Immunity to Charm and Compulsion and you can really annoy the living dead.
What happen with 'Shield Focus'?
Seelah has a +5 shield bonus to her AC. A +3 heavy steel shield AND 'Shield Focus' feat must be a +6 shield bonus.
Am I wrong?
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Director of Games
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What happen with 'Shield Focus'?
Seelah has a +5 shield bonus to her AC. A +3 heavy steel shield AND 'Shield Focus' feat must be a +6 shield bonus.
Am I wrong?
Nope.. the shield got altered at the last minute from +2 to +3 and I missed changing it. This will be corrected in the morning.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hmmm, I have to say, Paladin is looking awesome. Now it seems the only thing I need to get through is getting players who can play them as something other than lawful stupid. :P
I definitely like the changes to the Paladin. A lot more fun options.
One of my main pieces of feedback on the beta is that Paladin still wasn't changed enough to not suck. HOWEVER: I still wish that it would have been changed to a generic crusader class. Being LG is too restrictive both to the player and to a campaign, and at least in games that I play in the paladin will have large patches where he is virtually useless because his abilities are SOO specific and alignment based. Core book antipaladins is the best way to go.
My 2cp.
stuff
I doubt it would work like this, but it wouldn't be a bad idea: the +paladin level to damage would just be for the use, but until the end of the encounter (or a reasonable amount of time) the +cha to hit would stick.
HOWEVER: I still wish that it would have been changed to a generic crusader class. Being LG is too restrictive both to the player and to a campaign, and at least in games that I play in the paladin will have large patches where he is virtually useless because his abilities are SOO specific and alignment based. Core book antipaladins is the best way to go.
My 2cp.
Well that's not a paladin then. To many people a Paladin is LG anything else is not really a paladin.
But easy houserule
For the first time I really want to play a Paladin, apart from the roleplaying concept-
very nice...
GRU
HOWEVER: I still wish that it would have been changed to a generic crusader class. Being LG is too restrictive both to the player and to a campaign, and at least in games that I play in the paladin will have large patches where he is virtually useless because his abilities are SOO specific and alignment based. Core book antipaladins is the best way to go.
My 2cp.
Well that's not a paladin then. To many people a Paladin is LG anything else is not really a paladin.
Exactly. The class wouldn't really fit other alignments. So I think we need variants whose abilities are tailored to the alignment and the core concepts behind them. A CG champion class would be all about freedom, liberation, courage/fortitude. A LE champion would be all about tyranny, suppression, striking fear into the heart of the enemy. CE would be all about violating, destroying, unmaking, ending.
I love all the changes that are presented here, finally a paladin that actually is worth playing.
One question, does the aura of justice grant full smite evil to all allies within 10 feet? In that case it's really nasty when going up against the BBEG.
EDIT: Oh, and the changes to PF<alignment> and supposedly MCA<alignment> really bodes well for my upcoming PRPG bard :)
Exactly. The class wouldn't really fit other alignments. So I think we need variants whose abilities are tailored to the alignment and the core concepts behind them. A CG champion class would be all about freedom, liberation, courage/fortitude. A LE champion would be all about tyranny, suppression, striking fear into the heart of the enemy. CE would be all about violating, destroying, unmaking, ending.
Seconded. Partly the reason why I like the Blackguard Prestige class is just that reason, it's an anti-paladin, but it plays so differently from a paladin. An evil character won't have any objections to using undead, trickery or dishonourble tactics such as poison and the mechanics reflext this so. Also to become a paladin, you simply need to have bene knighted and to have the right motives and mindset (Hence the LG requirement). Blackgaurds, on the other hand, require your character to already have some degree of power and to have activily contacted evil creatures, which to me always made sense (A good god is likely to grant powers like that, whilst evil ones I can see only granting powers to those they think are worth their time).
Chaotic paladin equivilents are more likely to adopt a "It's okay to do this that and that, as long as it's for the greater good" mentality, meaning they might relay more on trickery than a Lawful Good paladin really should.
Seconded. Partly the reason why I like the Blackguard Prestige class is just that reason, it's an anti-paladin, but it plays so differently from a paladin.
Exactly.
Also to become a paladin, you simply need to have bene knighted and to have the right motives and mindset (Hence the LG requirement). Blackgaurds, on the other hand, require your character to already have some degree of power and to have activily contacted evil creatures, which to me always made sense (A good god is likely to grant powers like that, whilst evil ones I can see only granting powers to those they think are worth their time).
On that I don't quite agree: Evil often offers the quick and seductive path to power. "Hard work? Nah, just sign this pact and I'll grant your heart's every desire!"
It seems that we'll see a Blackguard base class some day (Paizo indicated as much during the debates about the PrC web enhancement for PF beta)
Still, their methods are so very different.
Chaotic paladin equivilents are more likely to adopt a "It's okay to do this that and that, as long as it's for the greater good" mentality, meaning they might relay more on trickery than a Lawful Good paladin really should.
The road to hell...
"Ends justify the means" is decidedly a good/evil thing. A CG "Liberator" type champion class would be no more or less inclined to commit small evils for the greater good.
They just don't give a damn about rules - at least not rules others want to force onto them. They'll have some sort of code of conduct, but it will be more personal, and probably have some contingencies and subclauses.
Trickery is not evil. It may be dishonest, but that's less of a concern for a Champion of Freedom.
Why give the Paladin the sunder feats? I just can'r see the reason for it. One it destroys the loot and second ir's not that easy to break stuff in the game. Hopefully the iconics in the final book have a better feat selection.
To show em off. They are made to show off rules changes and it shows off a 2nd sunder feat
Why give the Paladin the sunder feats? I just can'r see the reason for it. One it destroys the loot and second ir's not that easy to break stuff in the game.
It's trivially easy to break some things (cloaks, rings, wands) and difficult to break other things (esp. armour). That could be a bug or a feature, depending on who you ask.
At any rate, smashing evil magic items is a paladin-y thing to do, IMO. Whether it's "destroying treasure" depends on your DM, IMO.
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Why give the Paladin the sunder feats? I just can'r see the reason for it. One it destroys the loot and second ir's not that easy to break stuff in the game. Hopefully the iconics in the final book have a better feat selection.
Also I don't know if they kept this from beta, but sundering doesn't permanently destroy a weapon anymore. You have the opportunity to say (even after you do more damage than HP that the weapon currently has) to keep the weapon at a "broken" condition until it is repaired. Yes it costs money to repair, but that's why you keep a craft (weaponsmith) / craft (armorsmith) character around.
Oh yeah, I would sooooooo sunder the BBEG's magic dohicky or mystic thingibob
the wizard can whin after we kill the BBEG
It seems to me like a 'Lock-On Target'. Which is, Seelah can use Smite Evil on 5 enemies per day - and her Smite lasts until those enemies are dead (or gone away).
That's how I'd like to interpret it (even though "vanquished" does not make me think "gone away"); otherwise, the paladin will be tracking her foe like a ranger to avoid wasting a smite. A bit of clarification couldn't hurt, since this is not a corner case. Enemies often try to escape when combat is going badly.
My overall initial reaction... awesome!
I like auras, except the "aura of justice" concept doesn't really work for me. I may be missing the point, and I'm open to the possibility that some fluff might help the mental picture. The problem of bunching around the paladin making the group vulnerable to area attacks is acknowledged but unanswered.
I'm glad to see that the divine bond weapon bonuses and special qualities stack with the existing bonuses of Seelah's magic sword. I also like how dragons are added to evil outsiders and undead for extra damage from smite. That was a great suggestion from the message boards. The effective caster level bump to paladin level -3 is another welcome boost, along with good will save. This seems to fix the problem of 3e paladins being underpowered.
Did the paladin's access to fighter feats improve?
Adding mercies to clear negative status effects is a great way to make the paladin valued by the rest of the adventuring group, and it's nice to see the addition of a non-offensive ability since the playtest.
I would *love* to see an anti-paladin with 'Cruelty'. The opposite of 'Mercy'. Not only does he inflict damage with a touch attack, he stacks on Fatigued, Diseased, Shaken, Stunned, etc.
That would be a very very scary opponent.
*Sniff!*
Thanks Jason. I have nothing to say...apart of course...
...BEST PALADIN EVER! :D
Did the paladin's access to fighter feats improve?
Why should it. Paladins aren't fighters. Fighters don't get to fly into a rage, cast spells, or lay on hands, after all.
Why give the Paladin the sunder feats? I just can'r see the reason for it. One it destroys the loot
You know, as rumour has it, there are heroes who care about other things than becoming rich. Often, they're do-gooders, like, oh, I don't know, paladins.
:P
I remember a guy like you in a game once. We fought the big evil demon with the big evil sword. We killed the demon. We identified the sword and found out it was really evil. So I destroyed it.
That caused the wizard in the group to fly into a hissy fit because we destroyed money. Nevermind that this was a frikkin sword of unholy power (yes, the epic stuff), which existed for only one reason: Killing Good people.
and second ir's not that easy to break stuff in the game.
Does that mean that no one should do it?
Hopefully the iconics in the final book have a better feat selection.
The iconics aren't likely to have stats in the book at all.
People, stop agonising over every detail in the character makeups in regards to whether they fit or are effective or whatever. These previews exist solely to showcase the new rules. They're not meant to show you min-maxed or interesting characters. They're meant to show you new options for you to use to make interesting or min-maxed characters.
The problem of bunching around the paladin making the group vulnerable to area attacks is acknowledged but unanswered.
That is the area that concerns me the most. I'm not certain, yet, that the value of the auras outweighs the "problem" of "bunching." Of course, in many underground settings it would outweigh the inability to spread out. But taken on the whole, I'm not sure 10 feet is really going to cut it.
I'll have to see how different playstyles feel about it, but I am fairly certain my group will chalk them up as almost "a waste of class abilities."
Everything looks really good. Rather clear language (at least in the paragraphs) about smite and all.
Shield AC and Lays/day issues mentioned above. Also it looks like she got favored class bonus to both hp and skill points (+39 hp = 3xlevel with +2 con and no toughness; 4 maxed skills, 2 paladin +1 human +0 int).
Love the winged boots, the sunder feats (with broken condition these are *very* useful people!), and even Power Attack seems appropriately dangerous. Well done!
To the question on does it take extra lay on hands to use the mercies, the language used at the preview banquet and here has consistently said "any time you use this, X happens" - so I'd say no, probably just one use.
As for "bunching" - it seems to happen anyways quite a lot. Even if there's 15-20 feet between every party member, you'll still get three in a fireball. If two low-will people stick near the Paladin, and the others fan out a bit, you won't really have much change.
Why give the Paladin the sunder feats? I just can'r see the reason for it. One it destroys the lootYou know, as rumour has it, there are heroes who care about other things than becoming rich. Often, they're do-gooders, like, oh, I don't know, paladins.
:P
I remember a guy like you in a game once. We fought the big evil demon with the big evil sword. We killed the demon. We identified the sword and found out it was really evil. So I destroyed it.
That caused the wizard in the group to fly into a hissy fit because we destroyed money. Nevermind that this was a frikkin sword of unholy power (yes, the epic stuff), which existed for only one reason: Killing Good people.
I remember things like this as well. I specifically remember yoinking a cleric's spells and other abilities for wanting to sell the BBEG's equipment, which was all evil/cursed, when he was a cleric of Palor.
I think you might have heard the howl of outrage, it was about 6 years ago, really high-pitched and whiney.
and second ir's not that easy to break stuff in the game.Does that mean that no one should do it?
Hopefully the iconics in the final book have a better feat selection.The iconics aren't likely to have stats in the book at all.
People, stop agonising over every detail in the character makeups in regards to whether they fit or are effective or whatever. These previews exist solely to showcase the new rules. They're not meant to show you min-maxed or interesting characters. They're meant to show you new options for you to use to make interesting or min-maxed characters.
I disagree with this, I think they are making very interesting characters, and the feat selections are made for reasons other than min/maxing. They are made because they make sense for that character. It's a breath of fresh air honestly. I'm getting tired of min/maxing, or as it has become politically correct to call it, optimization.
Hmm, I like the changes and the new concepts and abilities. The paladin is definitely more versatile. I'm actually hoping she isn't too good.
The Divine weapon bond… I take it the paladin can bond it to any weapon wielded, yes?
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
A USEFUL PALADIN...
*PASSES OUT ON FLOOR*
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No seriously. The 3.5 one was a one-line joke. I actually feel gratified sticking to the class for so long just to finally see one whose mechanics did not involve being a one-hit wonder.
Though as usual, elsewhere the bashers are using the fact that the Paladin now works as an excuse to lay on more fighter hate.
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Hmm, I like the changes and the new concepts and abilities. The paladin is definitely more versatile. I'm actually hoping she isn't too good.
The Divine weapon bond… I take it the paladin can bond it to any weapon wielded, yes?
In the Beta it's with the deity's chosen weapon only. Which might help differentiate them as Abadar and Erastil (crossbow and bow) are going to have very different looking paladins to Iomedae and Saerenrae (longsword and scimitar).