Tail was looked at thoroughly and it was questioned.If you got some tail at Paizocon, you should consider yourself lucky; don't question it!
You will find your answer in the Underwater Combat section here.
Needless to say, Jason thought it strange that there was a column for Bludgeoning/Slashing, and then a column for...Tail.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Ah, I see. That is a little bit mysterious!
Thanks much to Nethys, Majuba and the other informants. Interesting. The main problem I'm having now is waiting until it comes out...
Hey, Neth': Irori called and said you should stop impersonating his portfolio! :P
Other than that, nice infos. I just request MOAR!
Now, my list of complaints (I know, it sounds negative, but it's so much shorter than a list of things I really dig):
Given the changes to Half-Orc, I'm assuming they are now also human/orc only. Which is a good change, I think. I always thought it was stupid that they stated a half-orc was either orc/human or rarely orc/elf. I don't have an issue with orc/elf (erc? Orf? Olf? Elc?), but they sure shouldn't have the same stats as a human/orc.
Huh? I think they were pretty exclusively human/orcs. In fact, it has been said repeatedly, for several editions and campaign worlds, that orcs and elves cannot produce crossbreeds together. I know this was in the forgotten realms, and I know it's in Golarion (something elves are grateful for, and something which they use to tease humans with).
Huh? I think they were pretty exclusively human/orcs. In fact, it has been said repeatedly, for several editions and campaign worlds, that orcs and elves cannot produce crossbreeds together. I know this was in the forgotten realms, and I know it's in Golarion (something elves are grateful for, and something which they use to tease humans with).
Actually, in Golarion, half-orcs could come from a human/orc pairing or a hobgoblin/orc pairing. Same stats, slightly different physical appearance. I don't know if it's been stated whether half-orc/half-orc pairings breed true or not. You are correct that elves and orcs don't mix.
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Hey, Neth': Irori called and said you should stop impersonating his portfolio! :P
Irori and his bald-butterfly-loving-head can kiss my half-burnt ***.
I'm the All Seeing Eye! Paizo just made a mistake when assigning titles. Irori is supposed to be the God of Fluffy Animals.
An honest mistake. They are only mortals.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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Given the changes to Half-Orc, I'm assuming they are now also human/orc only. Which is a good change, I think. I always thought it was stupid that they stated a half-orc was either orc/human or rarely orc/elf. I don't have an issue with orc/elf (erc? Orf? Olf? Elc?), but they sure shouldn't have the same stats as a human/orc.
Had a player once insist that his half-orc character was half orc and half dwarf, purely for roleplaying... this was later abandoned when the other palyers started referring to his PC as a "Dwork!"
Orc Ferocity, from the Beta, was a bit of a let down to me. I don't buy into the "ability near death" design because it almost punishes players who play well tactically.
In my Beta campaign, I had a half-orc rogue and a half-orc fighter. Neither one was really playing badly tactically, but as front line fighters, they often did end up using the Orc Ferocity trait.
Not to mention, that's kind of like saying everyone should know to avoid poison or magic, so giving a dwarf a bonus to such things only encourages a dwarf player to not be smart in playing their character.
Hey, Neth': Irori called and said you should stop impersonating his portfolio! :P
Other than that, nice infos. I just request MOAR!
Now, my list of complaints (I know, it sounds negative, but it's so much shorter than a list of things I really dig):
Free favoured class. I'd rather have this rule get rid of altogether. They did enough for singleclassing.
Half-orcs getting any +2. I got kinda used to half-orcs being closer to orcs with their abilities. Given the changes to Half-Orc, I'm assuming they are now also human/orc only. Which is a good change, I think. I always thought it was stupid that they stated a half-orc was either orc/human or rarely orc/elf. I don't have an issue with orc/elf (erc? Orf? Olf? Elc?), but they sure shouldn't have the same stats as a human/orc.Huh? I think they were pretty exclusively human/orcs. In fact, it has been said repeatedly, for several editions and campaign worlds, that orcs and elves cannot produce crossbreeds together. I know this was in the forgotten realms, and I know it's in Golarion (something elves are grateful for, and something which they use to tease humans with).
Wierd,
I distinctly remember reading somewhere that half-orcs were human or elf bred orcs. But... I can't find it now. I remember we wasted half a game session going over how stupid that was (about 6 or so years ago).
Orc Ferocity, from the Beta, was a bit of a let down to me. I don't buy into the "ability near death" design because it almost punishes players who play well tactically.
In my Beta campaign, I had a half-orc rogue and a half-orc fighter. Neither one was really playing badly tactically, but as front line fighters, they often did end up using the Orc Ferocity trait.
Not to mention, that's kind of like saying everyone should know to avoid poison or magic, so giving a dwarf a bonus to such things only encourages a dwarf player to not be smart in playing their character.
I'm not sure how "players are almost punished for an ability that should rarely see use if the group plays well" compares to "an ability that helps protect a character encourages poor tactics."
But if you remove the reference to "not be smart," you have a point I agree with. If a character has DR, they are more "reckless" in combat. If they have SR, they are bolder and brasher when going against spellcasters. From my experience, Dwarves are less fearful of spells and poisons than other races.
Thanks to Nethys for the reporting! Interesting stuff!
I'm slightly disappointed that half-orcs didn't keep there +2 str, wis, and -2 int. I felt that allowed to half-orcs to cover a different niche than the other races and even allowed to play more melee focus clerics and druids, heck even paladins seem like good option for them. With the just +2 any one stat I'm worried that they'll be too similar to half-elfs and humans now. Course I'll reserve finally judgment when see the rest of their traits.
I'm slightly disappointed that half-orcs didn't keep there +2 str, wis, and -2 int. I felt that allowed to half-orcs to cover a different niche than the other races and even allowed to play more melee focus clerics and druids, heck even paladins seem like good option for them. With the just +2 any one stat I'm worried that they'll be too similar to half-elfs and humans now. Course I'll reserve finally judgment when see the rest of their traits.
Maybe I'm too much of a Lord of the Rings fan, but those orcs were not good, not lawful, and definitely not eco-friendly.
I have a hard hard hard time with the concept of orcs, or any of their offspring, really fitting well into a paladin or druid role. Worse, I find it even harder (yep, harder than three whole hards) to think that half-orcs are the ultimate race for paladins and druids, far better than any other race.
So very very out of character for them.
Sure, Pathfinder can redefine their character if they want, but it's so hard for me to buy into that redefinition.
I for one am glad that this got an overhaul.
Hey, Neth': Irori called and said you should stop impersonating his portfolio! :P
Irori and his bald-butterfly-loving-head can kiss my half-burnt ***.
I'm the All Seeing Eye! Paizo just made a mistake when assigning titles. Irori is supposed to be the God of Fluffy Animals.
An honest mistake. They are only mortals.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
All-seing doesn't mean all knowing. Your ADD gets in the way. Plus, your Dualistic nature makes you cross-eyed.
Oh, and the Chorus of the Pandemonic Silence told me to tell you to turn the damn pop music down. Or the death metal. Don't listen to both at once at a million dezibel or they boot you out of the CV.
Maybe I'm too much of a Lord of the Rings fan, but those orcs were not good, not lawful, and definitely not eco-friendly.
Half-orcs, not orcs. And these half-orcs aren't a breeding experiment by a mad wizard-god, but the result of war-crimes and forced breeding conducted by the orcs themselves.
I have a hard hard hard time with the concept of orcs, or any of their offspring, really fitting well into a paladin or druid role.
That really is your problem, not the game's :P
Half-orcs who resent their orc parents for the nature of their conception make great paladins - do what's good and right to offset the evil and chaos their savage parents did. And then there's the whole redemption thing, which makes them great paladins of Serenrae.
Druids make a lot sense, too: Druid works very well for the shaman archetype, which fits orcs like a glove. Better yet, half-orcs who get away from their orcish parents end up in the wilderness alone are probably quite common. Or maybe orcs abandon them to the wilds, and other druids find them. Druids don't care too much about your race, they care more about life itself, and nature of course. They wouldn't see a problem with a half-orc child if its raised to their ideals.
Worse, I find it even harder (yep, harder than three whole hards) to think that half-orcs are the ultimate race for paladins and druids, far better than any other race.
Me, too. Luckily, that never was the case, not even in Beta. They make really good druids, that's true, but not far better than, say, humans.
And Paladins? they're only somewhat suited for that - the strength helps, but humans and half-elves can get that, too. And both wisdom and intelligence are not very important to paladins, so they have no real bearing on this.
If they were +2 str, +2 cha, -2 int, then I'd agree that they'd make the ultimate paladins, but they're not.
Half-orcs, not orcs. And these half-orcs aren't a breeding experiment by a mad wizard-god, but the result of war-crimes and forced breeding conducted by the orcs themselves.
Maybe I'm too much of a Lord of the Rings fan, but those orcs were not good, not lawful, and definitely not eco-friendly.
I tend to differentiate half-orcs from the Lord of the Rings mythos too, just based upon what has been written in the Golarion campaign.
Golarion campaign setting = Golarion interpretation of how the universe works.
Take a look when there is a mixing of Ogre and Human bloodlines. You get a mess. An ugly mess. They're not remotely the species even if they're both humanoid (Ogres are giants), and the two groups barely can breed. When they do, the resulting deformities and birth defects are severe.
You cross an orc with a human, it is a fairly stable in comparison. You get a hybridization of both two parents. Sure, there are some genetic predispositions- but the two bloodlines will mix to a viable half-breed. And that means all the positive traits and pre-dispositions as well as the negative.
Half-orcs, not orcs. And these half-orcs aren't a breeding experiment by a mad wizard-god, but the result of war-crimes and forced breeding conducted by the orcs themselves.
Maybe I'm too much of a Lord of the Rings fan, but those orcs were not good, not lawful, and definitely not eco-friendly.
I tend to differentiate half-orcs from the Lord of the Rings mythos too, just based upon what has been written in the Golarion campaign.
Golarion campaign setting = Golarion interpretation of how the universe works.
Take a look when there is a mixing of Ogre and Human bloodlines. You get a mess. An ugly mess. They're not remotely the species even if they're both humanoid (Ogres are giants), and the two groups barely can breed. When they do, the resulting deformities and birth defects are severe.
You cross an orc with a human, it is a fairly stable in comparison. You get a hybridization of both two parents. Sure, there are some genetic predispositions- but the two bloodlines will mix to a viable half-breed. And that means all the positive traits and pre-dispositions as well as the negative.
I've always hated that there wasn't enough detail on hybrids in D&D. They just pop them off at random, with no coherency or anything. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are vastly different (I like what appears to be Paizo's making them more similar in mechanics) despite a common bloodline on one half of their family tree. Some of them are races (half-Giants), some are templates (half-dragons), and some are half-breeds of two races (Half-Orc/Half-Elf).
And they never go into detail on other half-breeds (half-dwarf (if possible), etc). That's why I asked for a 'Savage Species' equivalent for Pathfinder that went into detail on hybrids, half-breeds, etc.
On topic though, I think if the rules were there for it, what should happen is that humanoids breed stable (IE: Hybrid offspring are fertile and breed true with other hybrids of the same type), like breeding a wolf with a german shepard. Hyrbrids of two different types (Monsterous Humanoid/Humanoid) should be unstable. That is, sterile and unable to breed, like breeding a horse and a donkey to get a mule. Basically, something stable can breed true and create a new race.
The problem with this idea is, of course, that WoTC already broke it by creating half-giant as a race. LOL
The problem with this idea is, of course, that WoTC already broke it by creating half-giant as a race. LOL
"When a lion, a goat and a dragon love each other very much, sometimes they hug each other in a very special way and have a baby together. Sometimes owls and bears do the same thing."
"When a lion, a goat and a dragon love each other very much, sometimes they hug each other in a very special way and have a baby together. Sometimes owls and bears do the same thing."The problem with this idea is, of course, that WoTC already broke it by creating half-giant as a race. LOL
LOL
LOL"When a lion, a goat and a dragon love each other very much, sometimes they hug each other in a very special way and have a baby together. Sometimes owls and bears do the same thing."The problem with this idea is, of course, that WoTC already broke it by creating half-giant as a race. LOL
Lol indeed.. that is pretty funny.
Getting back to the discussion.. The points that you bring up are exactly why I like ogrekin as an NPC racial type (or template). They don't breed right. Something goes horribly wrong. Sometimes that should happen.
Speaking for myself, I don't mind half-elves and half-orcs. I've had since the late Seventies to get used to the idea. To me, the concepts are part of the tradition of the game. For right or for wrong, I'm used to them. I'm comfortable with the rationalizations that have been made by others.
But with all due respect to WOTC, they can keep their half-giants. Keep them in their own campaign setting. If the day should ever come that Paizo wants to introduce another race (like a race of psionic big people on another planet in Golarion's solar system), just make it a whole new race, period. It may be a little late to draw the line with half-elves and half-orcs, but we can still draw a line somewhere else.
And it does seem silly that whatever manages to have sex (consentual or otherwise) with a human creates a hybrid.
But with all due respect to WOTC, they can keep their half-giants.
WOTC didn't create the half-giant; they were ported over from Dark Sun.
Nephilim are the only Half, Giants that we need.
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Just as a counterpoint to whether darkvision is a nice perk or not. In my opinion it is. First of all not everyone will be a caster with access to it. Even if you are a caster with access to the spell (ranger and sor/wiz in beta) then you have to use a spell slot for darkvision and it lasts for 1 hour/caster level. So that 3rd level wizard will have darkvision for 3 hours unless he uses even more slots on the spell. Half orcs will be able to use it all day. A half orc wizard can memorize a web, or invisibility, or any other useful spell with that slot.
Goggles of darkvision are expensive and represent a significant investment for most PCs. The half orc can invest that gold on his armor, weapon, other items, etc.
But with all due respect to WOTC, they can keep their half-giants.WOTC didn't create the half-giant; they were ported over from Dark Sun.
I take you at your word. I was only following up on what mdt had posted above. See below.
The problem with this idea is, of course, that WoTC already broke it by creating half-giant as a race. LOL
In any case, TSR created the half-giant, and they were bought by WOTC. WOTC is currently listed as the publisher of Dark Sun.
All that aside.. we’re discussing exactly how many hybridized half-human races a campaign setting actually needs. We have two, I think that will suffice.
Nephilim are the only Half, Giants that we need.
Nicely put!
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Agreed 100%, and goggles use an eyeslot that could be used for something as well.Just as a counterpoint to whether darkvision is a nice perk or not. In my opinion it is. First of all not everyone will be a caster with access to it. Even if you are a caster with access to the spell (ranger and sor/wiz in beta) then you have to use a spell slot for darkvision and it lasts for 1 hour/caster level. So that 3rd level wizard will have darkvision for 3 hours unless he uses even more slots on the spell. Half orcs will be able to use it all day. A half orc wizard can memorize a web, or invisibility, or any other useful spell with that slot.
Goggles of darkvision are expensive and represent a significant investment for most PCs. The half orc can invest that gold on his armor, weapon, other items, etc.
Let's be honest, how often is darkvision really useful? No, really.
Not that I'm saying that it sucks or is worthless, but unless you are a rogue or some kind of scouting character, it's really not a selling point for a race because most of the rest of your party is going to need a light source anyway. It's a perk, but .vs a Humans skill points and bonus feat it's a no-brainer and up against a Half-elfs 2 favored classes and low-light vision it doesn't do much better.
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When you're going into a cave where things outside your light source are going to have concealment from the darkness, it's nice.
When you want to sneak and search ahead of the party, you're going to need some concealment to sneak in. But it makes it hard to search without light if you can't see in it also. Darkvision helps there.
It's a minor perk, and can be replaced by magic, but it comes in handy in a lot of situations. It's possibly MORE minor because a lot of DMs (I've noticed) tend to overlook the consequences of darkness as just a hassle, so those creatures with this sight tend not to benefit.
It's possibly MORE minor because a lot of DMs (I've noticed) tend to overlook the consequences of darkness as just a hassle, so those creatures with this sight tend not to benefit.
I agree 100%.
It wasn't until I started experimenting with MapTools (a Virtual Table Top), did I realize just how often that a creature with Darkvision should be seeing the PCs.. long before the PCs can actually see them.
Factor in that the creatures with darkvision could charge with a surprise attack, or hit them with ranged weapons or spells- darkvision should be a huge advantage. But it's often not, because that is a difficult thing for a GM to monitor and adjudicate. Especially without tipping the players off, if they're not moving in initative already.
But that's a minor sidetrack..
I agree with Karui, it's only as good as it is enforced and used by the GM.
I'm ok with this half-orc. I enjoy playing half-orcs and frankly this one has some advantages and plenty of flexibility for me. Look at the 1st ed half-orc. Sure +1 str + 1 can, his stat max's were terrible, his level limits the worse of all races, he alone of all races had to use the worse armor available to any classes he had, and he was not able to be raised using raise dead. So this one looks pretty good by comparison to me.
Also in first ed, half-orc PCs were the rare half-orc who could almost pass for human. This one certainly fits that discription so I take it as a nice little salute to that edition, it might not be for that reason at all, but still I like it anyway.
I am much happier with this then the Beta version, I did not like the idea of half-orcs having druid as a favorite class. Never will make sense to me, except in unusual circumstances which now you can emulate by choosing it for your half-orc. While me I can choose fighter, rogue, or cleric because those are the classes I like for my half-orcs.
Nephilim are the only Half, Giants that we need.Nicely put!
I completely fully agree.
However, Half-Giants are in the SRD (from Expanded Psionics Handbook), so we have them as well, if actually desired by someone.
I can confirm(or reveal) a few other things from the game with Jason I was in:
1) Paladins have full channeling ability. The paladin I was playing could heal 3d6 with his channeling as a 5th level paladin. However, I had 4 uses per day of lay on hands and in order to channel I had to spend 2 channeling uses.
2) Divine bond was usable 1/day and lasted 5 minutes. I had the choice of adding either keen or the flaming ability to the weapon.
4) When you take enough damage to go into the negatives (whether it be from a fireball or stabbing yourself to death..or a combination of those...yes, I said stabbing yourself to death) you do not die until reaching a negative score equal to your constitution and you can make a constitution check (DC unknown as Jason wouldn't spill the beans) in order to stabilize.
5) Being cursed can really suck! (or be a lot of fun, depending on how you look at it)
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Look at the 1st ed half-orc. Sure +1 str + 1 can, his stat max's were terrible, his level limits the worse of all races, he alone of all races had to use the worse armor available to any classes he had, and he was not able to be raised using raise dead. So this one looks pretty good by comparison to me.
1) Comparing a PF race to it's AD&D origins serves what purpose when discussing a races comparitive power to the other races in PF?
2) AD&D Half-orcs got booted from the Unlimited Thief level gravy train everyone else was on, but he was the only race besides Human who could be a Grand Master Assassin and he had the highest level limit of demi-human Fighters as well, not to shabby, really. A Half-orc Fighter Assassin was a thing to be feared. And his stat limits weren't much worse than a Dwarf.
2) AD&D Half-orcs got booted from the Unlimited Thief level gravy train everyone else was on, but he was the only race besides Human who could be a Grand Master Assassin and he had the highest level limit of demi-human Fighters as well, not to shabby, really. A Half-orc Fighter Assassin was a thing to be feared. And his stat limits weren't much worse than a Dwarf.
Don't forget they could actually *be* clerics in the PHB - only others were humans and half-elves. And the only ones who could be the sickly destructive Cleric/Assassins.
Still - I think Half-orcs are doing just fine now.
5) Being cursed can really suck! (or be a lot of fun, depending on how you look at it)Who did you play?
Talmor the Follower, paladin of Iomedae and a generally helpful fellow.
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All Medium and Heavy Armors have had their AC increased by 1. AWESOME!
Mithril weapons count as silver for bypassing damage reduction. This is so one does not have to use a weapon with -1 to damage to bypass it. AWESOME!
Though Mithril armor still counts as one weight category lower, it does not do so for the purposes of proficiency. Thus Mithril Full Plate is treated as Medium armor, but the wearer will still need Heavy Armor Proficiency to use it properly.
Poisons do not always activate immediately, some may wait hours or even days before affecting the target, and can damage them a day at a time (for a rather slow and painful death). AWESOME!AWESOME!AWESOME!AWESOME!AWESOME!AWESOME!AWESOME!AWESOME!DRAGON WARRIOR I/II // FINAL FANTASY I KINDA AWESOME!
Crafting is still based off a skill check, as in the Beta, and is normally low. Lowering the time or missing requirements can make this higher, failing by a lot can create a cursed item. AWESOME!
The above previews are enough to make me wholeheartedly satisfied at having ordered 3 copies each of the PRPG and Bestiary for myself and some fellow gamers.
:) :) :)
[bold emphasis mine]
The elf can see 20' (twice as far in darkness) out from the light source while the 1/2 orc (with 60' darkvision) can see 40' beyond the light. While if you are at the edge of the light the elf can see 20' into the darkness while the 1/2 orc can see 60'.
And what about the Dwarf?
Nephilim are the only Half, Giants that we need.Nicely put!I completely fully agree.
However, Half-Giants are in the SRD (from Expanded Psionics Handbook), so we have them as well, if actually desired by someone.
Given that Giants are now of the humanoid (giant) type, half-giants hybrids are not quite unreasonable. It might still make more sense to have them as decendants of humans and an acient giant race, rather than being the actually children of such a union.
Likewise, magic can explain some of the half-races. Namely the use of the polymorph type spells. If a lecherous human uses form of the dragon to have a walk on the wild side, who knows what the outcome might be.
Look at the 1st ed half-orc. Sure +1 str + 1 can, his stat max's were terrible, his level limits the worse of all races, he alone of all races had to use the worse armor available to any classes he had, and he was not able to be raised using raise dead. So this one looks pretty good by comparison to me.1) Comparing a PF race to it's AD&D origins serves what purpose when discussing a races comparitive power to the other races in PF?
2) AD&D Half-orcs got booted from the Unlimited Thief level gravy train everyone else was on, but he was the only race besides Human who could be a Grand Master Assassin and he had the highest level limit of demi-human Fighters as well, not to shabby, really. A Half-orc Fighter Assassin was a thing to be feared. And his stat limits weren't much worse than a Dwarf.
Personally I don't care about relative race strength honestly. I don't think that has anything to do with having fun. But having options in your favored class and build does to me. But I am also simply pointing out that half-orc has been the poorest choice in the past, this time they might be a bit below the humans but still they seem good in comparision to their past.
Fighter/Assassin was a decent combo, but because you were a half-orc most people could guess what you were. Also as a half-orc you were limited to assassin armor and a max dex of 14. Anyone else could wear whatever armor they wanted, great for hiding your second class. Cleric/Assassin half-orcs were...not optimal and I say that having played one for a long time. Level limit for cleric...4 lowest of any race after UA, your wisdom was cap'd at 14 as well for starting number but could go up later. Oh and just for fun again you were limited to assassin armor choices and no matter what your int was limited to learning 2 additional languages. It wasn't a horrible race, but wasn't a very powerful one either.
Talmor the Follower, paladin of Iomedae and a generally helpful fellow.Ah.. cool. The avatar name was not familiar to me so I wasn't sure. (It's not your name right?)
Yes, it is my name. I believe Jason ran the Cursed Lot on 2 different days, so maybe you're confusing me with the other paladin?
As an added piece of information, it sounds as if level adjustments have been removed.Thank Desna! LA was a mathematical and logistical nightmare. Rest in pieces!
Agreed!
*whips out the axe* let's get chop'n!!!
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Yes, it is my name. I believe Jason ran the Cursed Lot on 2 different days, so maybe you're confusing me with the other paladin?Talmor the Follower, paladin of Iomedae and a generally helpful fellow.Ah.. cool. The avatar name was not familiar to me so I wasn't sure. (It's not your name right?)
Just sit down and be quiet, cat killer! ;)
Just sit down and be quiet, cat killer! ;)
Hey now, those cats were vicious, cruel felines!
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Not that I'm saying that it sucks or is worthless, but unless you are a rogue or some kind of scouting character, it's really not a selling point for a race because most of the rest of your party is going to need a light source anyway.
Exactly!
Set them up as bait!
Lure out the predators and jump them!