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I'm not comfortable with the term "nerf" one of those "non-words" that seem to plague what now passes for the English language...
Anyway, perhaps what has been termed "nerfing" of class A or B is a rebalancing class vs class? Making each class while unique of the same potential to shine during a game? Not in the same situation obviously.
What measures a characters power? The opponents, so nerfing can only be said to occur if the class can no longer function vs monster X or challenge Y and it is expected too. I have seen the editions of D&D become an arms race. Check out the entry for Dragons over the years, up and up they go! By 15th edition D&D or 6th PFrpg :) Dragons will have hit point measured in MEGA-hps and have an average AC of about 6,754. Of course players will have feats meaning they can get about +8,765 to hit if "optimized", or +3 "unoptimized"...
My point (yes there was one), keep increasing the +'s of PC's and you either have to rewrite the monsters or they will no longer provide any challenge.
So keep "nerfing" Paizo, I cringe when I hear bonuses that make the d20 seem like a waste of time rolling...
S.
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But I've also heard that Miguel de Cervantes (a poet) was playing word games when he mutated "proof is in the putting" to his version in Don Quixote. Most of the etymology on the incredibly accurate interwebs stops at Don Quixote though, so it's hard to verify.
well if it was the good Cervantes... more a writer than a poet actually... wouldn't be it in Spanish? and wouldn't say a quite different thing altoguether?
not that he couldn't know english... but he is famous for his masterpiece in my native language (meh actually more like Castellano than Español :S the modern languague spoken on Spain actually give me the creeps :S, I don't care if they got it first!)
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What measures a characters power? The opponents, so nerfing can only be said to occur if the class can no longer function vs monster X or challenge Y and it is expected too. I have seen the editions of D&D become an arms race. Check out the entry for Dragons over the years, up and up they go! By 15th edition D&D or 6th PFrpg :) Dragons will have hit point measured in MEGA-hps and have an average AC of about 6,754. Of course players will have feats meaning they can get about +8,765 to hit if "optimized", or +3 "unoptimized"...
and then we will be playing Rifts... but i suppose that since rifts is already out there we don't need to arrive there, do we?
and the rest about nerfing I follow suit to The Mona... tired of discussing it, that path leads to madness and downhill :P whoeevr is right it depends on who is sitting in their table and if they all are having fun... if this doesn't happens whichever reason it is... yes someone is playing the WRONG game :P
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So now, of course, people are coming out of the woodwork complaining about the NEW art because they preferred the old.
lol well even if it was the majority who said they didn't like it... then all those who said they liekd it would come to the foreground and complain, don't we? :P
but I know you all are doing your best and we can't agree in everything... I might end buying it... just ebcause I liked the how big it is... it makes an excellent compleemnt for bludgeoning weapon along with the Dark Heresy one :D
but since Arcana Evolved, and Monte Cook's Worl of Darkness and Dark Heresy I stopped being surprised about big books... and began expecting them as what should be an standar... ok they are heavy... but that way one is supposed to bring less books with him
Add me as another person who, having tried them both, still prefers the 1e initiative system to the 3e system. Yeah, it was a pain in the neck, but it made so many other things make sense (You could actually get shot at while running, instead of the rest of the world holding still until you reached your destination! You could get hit while spellcasting!) Maybe if the "hold action" rules were a LOT better...I remember finding out what the plans were for initiative, and tracking down Jonathan Tweet and very vociferously telling him that his plans for initiative were going to doom 3rd edition and that it was the most stupid rule ever and that nobody would play it and that I would be houseruling that in my campaign and... <pant, pant, pant> And you know what, Jonathan was right and the new initiative was much better than what I played in my 1st edition campaigns. But it took me actually playing it to realize that he knew better than I did.
-Lisa
I am sure that somewhere deep below our feet, a snowball is contentedly chilling in the fires. Pigs are swooping around everywhere!
Kirth and I agree on something?
Perish the thought!
I would chomp myself to wake up from this dream, but I might chip an armored tooth on my armored hide, and that would take a few seconds to regenerate, so it's too much trouble...
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and then we will be playing Rifts... but i suppose that since rifts is already out there we don't need to arrive there, do we?
Bingo! Exactly what I was thinking. Sorry about reiterating what may have been already discussed, I only skim read the topic to date. But this "nerf" topic seems to be a disease. Any publisher who is unwilling to just throw in more pluses to their game seems to be labeled a "nerfer".
S.
But I've also heard that Miguel de Cervantes (a poet) was playing word games when he mutated "proof is in the putting" to his version in Don Quixote. Most of the etymology on the incredibly accurate interwebs stops at Don Quixote though, so it's hard to verify.well if it was the good Cervantes... more a writer than a poet actually... wouldn't be it in Spanish? and wouldn't say a quite different thing altoguether?
not that he couldn't know english... but he is famous for his masterpiece in my native language (meh actually more like Castellano than Español :S the modern languague spoken on Spain actually give me the creeps :S, I don't care if they got it first!)
Yep, actually the rendering is Peter Anthony Motteux' English version. The original Spanish (or Castillian, though I always find people using Castillian as a more PC label problematic, after all it was the kingdom of Castilla the culprit of messing half of the Americas, the conception of Spain as a nation is way later) runs like:
"al freír de los huevos lo verá", literally, "you'll see it when you fry the eggs". It's not a word game at all, it is just a pretty clear proverb (Sancho, the character speaking is noted for using a ridiculous amount of proverbs in his talking, even if they don't quite match the conversation topic at hand). We still use, more often, "al freír será el reír", clearly because of the rhyme, meaning, "even if you're overconfident or skeptical on something, when the real situation comes up, the true value of it will be seen for sure".
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So now, of course, people are coming out of the woodwork complaining about the NEW art because they preferred the old.
If it makes you feel better, I dislike both. But, I bought the Beta hard copy, and I will buy the Final Rules, and I can't stand W.A.R.'s art (I know he didn't do the line up art, just saying...), so, artwork is pretty low on my "will I buy a product" list...
I'm going to buy the book, I'm going to keep the same houserules I had for 3x (doesn't look like PfRPG will address my issues, damned BC...), and I'll have a book my players can buy that they don't have to get off eBay...
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Yep, actually the rendering is Peter Anthony Motteux' English version. The original Spanish (or Castillian, though I always find people using Castillian as a more PC label problematic, after all it was the kingdom of Castilla the culprit of messing half of the Americas, the conception of Spain as a nation is way later) runs like:
"al freír de los huevos lo verá", literally, "you'll see it when you fry the eggs". It's not a word game at all, it is just a pretty clear proverb (Sancho, the character speaking is noted for using a ridiculous amount of proverbs in his talking, even if they don't quite match the conversation topic at hand). We still use, more often, "al freír será el reír", clearly because of the rhyme, meaning, "even if you're overconfident or skeptical on something, when the real situation comes up, the true value of it will be seen for sure".
thank you Andreas, this is good information... one of this days I need to read the Quijote... have those books sitting on my bookcase for the last... f$%&, I think 15 years :S dammit...
and my issue wit Castillian and Spanish is more than the fact that they screwed/conquered/razaed/reconstructed most of latin america... in fact... we have it our blood... so no reason to still be angry...
but... really really... I can't stand their translations of RPG Books :S and they translate it ALL by LAW!!
it iks me and some of my friends as someone from usa would irk to listen british english (and viceversa)
so... just personal taste :P
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and then we will be playing Rifts... but i suppose that since rifts is already out there we don't need to arrive there, do we?Bingo! Exactly what I was thinking. Sorry about reiterating what may have been already discussed, I only skim read the topic to date. But this "nerf" topic seems to be a disease. Any publisher who is unwilling to just throw in more pluses to their game seems to be labeled a "nerfer".
S.
actually we call nefer not the ones who take bonuses from what there is already writen, but to those who dilute it with water, making it weaker and elss useful... specially outside combat and for a few roudns with each comming edition...
we understand Paizo's use of 3.5 material, so we didn't expect them to make spells ebtter and actually liekd their work on races and classes... whcih we lament are few step backs from some of those... and even some more nerfs in more spells :P
so... it might be seeing the glass half full or half empty...
besides... this has nothing to do with rifts... but if needed be... some spells should do MEGA damage!
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I get a bit irritated every time I read someone's post saying "you can't have a (negative) opinion on the final product because it could be completely different than the Pathfinder Beta and/or completely different than what the previews have shown" (paraphrased).
Same arguments used about criticizing 4E before it was in our hands. One doesn't have to eat the meal to be turned off by the smell coming from the kitchen.
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I respectfully disagree with most of the pessimistic posts.
You are more then welcome to. Understand that not everyone shares your like of Pathfindert
The development of PFRPG has been a long and thoroughly discussed process. I also find it hard to believe that folks are disappoint when the they have not read the whole tome?!?!
While they have not released the final version of PF the beta version has been around for a long time. So it's not like those who are not happy with PF are complining for nothing. And once again do try to understand that just because you like PF does not mean others do not. So really don't act all shocked because you are overeacting imo for no good reason
The price of the item was a concern and Paizo did seek feedback about it. I believe they went ahead and add more stuff based on peoples feedback. The PFRPG will have a modest amount of products per year so as you add things up it is reasonable.
Reasonable imo if it was a new game or totally different. Paizo is asking the fanbase to pay the same price that the 3.5 core set cost. Basically asking fans to buy what is essentially 3.5 with a few new rules added to it. You have to give those who are not sure about PF a good reason to switch over. If I had stayed with 3.5 and not switched to 4E I would probably not be buying it. Personally I'm still getting it and find that while the price is somewhat high I know what I am getting into.
PFRPG appears to me to bring balance to the game and classes. I LOVE, and so does my group, the AP and modules. From what I have seen and heard all of the updates to 3.5 sound awesome and will improve the game play.
While not really fixing any issues that 3.5 has imo. Fighters still suffer from being strong at low levels and being overshadowed at high levels. Spellcasters still will dominate the game. Your making it sound like it's some sort of capital crime to not like Pathfinder.
Before folks make big calls maybe some patience and wait and see and play before judgement. Though everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Are you delibrately ignoring the fact that the Beta has been out for quite sometime? Most of the stuff in it has probalby reminaded unchanged. On one had you criticize those who dislike PF and the other you tell them not too. you can't have both ways.
I for one will rush straight into PFRPG and convert my group's 3.5 characters over... if nothing else to give them an edge to survive RotRL. :)
That's nice. Just realize that some of the fanbase will not.
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If anything the book is underpriced relative to other tomes of its size. The Dark Heresy rulebook, for example, is about the same size but $10 more expensive, and with less art.I was very pleased at the PaizoCon banquet when Jason Bulmahn held up the actual printed copy and everyone gasped at the sheer size of it.
I heard two people at the table behind me say "Holy s&*~, I thought it would be a ripoff but look how huge it is! I am totally getting that!"
The proof will be in the pudding, as they say, but I am not in the least bit worried that people will think the book is too expensive once they've had a chance to see the genuine article.
I have worked in retail for about 10 years and I can honestly say that even when they see the book there will be some who will talk negative about it. It's human nature. When the Canadian dollar was on par with the US dollar many consumers taught that the prices of good would just simply change overnight. A book that cost 10.99 Can would not cost 8.99 US. Economics does not work like that. For example if Erik bought 30 barrels of oil at 60 he is not going to resell them at 47$ dollar parity or no.
We had a lot of complints and some consumers would not listen to anything we had to say unless we were willing to give them the US price. Don't be fooled by what a small segemnet of the Paizo fanbase says about it. They are not the ones you have to convince.
I do think your Dark Heresy comparison is a poor one. Your comparing a totally new book wit a new set of rules to one that is essentially the same with a rules with a few new rules added. It's not the same thing imo.
I do think your Dark Heresy comparison is a poor one. Your comparing a totally new book wit a new set of rules to one that is essentially the same with a rules with a few new rules added. It's not the same thing imo.
Umm it is a new book. 3.5 was a new rules set. 3.0 was a new rules set...And pathfinder while close to 3.5 is in fact a new rule set
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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While not really fixing any issues that 3.5 has imo. Fighters still suffer from being strong at low levels and being overshadowed at high levels. Spellcasters still will dominate the game. Your making it sound like it's some sort of capital crime to not like Pathfinder.
I know it's not, but can we at least pretend it's a misdemeanor or something until August?
I think that would add a certain frisson to the conversation.There are a lot of high-level fighter jukes that have not yet been previewed. I don't know if they are enough to change your mind, but I do think you'll want to give the class another look once the book comes out, because there's a lot of stuff that hasn't been shown yet that addresses a lot of the most common fighter concerns posted over 13845 pages in that RPG.net thread.
Again, I'm not saying that I think you'll change your mind on this, but it will be interesting to hear your impressions once the final book is out.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I do think your Dark Heresy comparison is a poor one. Your comparing a totally new book wit a new set of rules to one that is essentially the same with a rules with a few new rules added. It's not the same thing imo.
Probably because you didn't have to pay for all the art, editing, development, layout, printing, shipping, and distribution.
But hey, every viewpoint is important!
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I certainly can understand that everyone has some anxiety but when I made those comments it was near 4am and there were a fair number of threads about stating concerns and disappointments as well general negativity about the new release. Even those with pros appeared to labour on cons.
Quiet honestly, I felt overwhelmed by it all so I stated my feelings... if you like I was singing in the rain. We are trulye excited about the book release here in Rockhampton. I am still waiting about sucscription details and sidecart options.
*nudge nudge wink wink Vic*
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There are a lot of high-level fighter jukes that have not yet been previewed. I don't know if they are enough to change your mind, but I do think you'll want to give the class another look once the book comes out, because there's a lot of stuff that hasn't been shown yet that addresses a lot of the most common fighter concerns posted over 13845 pages in that RPG.net thread.
Who cares about the 13845 pages at RPG.net? What about the 14 million pages at Paizo.com in the playtest threads?
;)
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Who cares about the 13845 pages at RPG.net? What about the 14 million pages at Paizo.com in the playtest threads?
None of those claim that I am personally ruining the game because I prefer to play spellcasting classes, so I don't count those.
Silly.
Again, who cares about RPG.net? That site and Enworld are pretty much not hearing any 3x any more...
They just want to tear down Paizo 'cause y'all didn't jump on the 4e bandwagon...
Who cares about the 13845 pages at RPG.net? What about the 14 million pages at Paizo.com in the playtest threads?
None of those claim that I am personally ruining the game because I prefer to play spellcasting classes, so I don't count those.
Silly.
Again, who cares about RPG.net? That site and Enworld are pretty much not hearing any 3x any more...
They just want to tear down Paizo 'cause y'all didn't jump on the 4e bandwagon...
Good point trying to talk pathfinder over there is like doing it on wotc's forms
Only bashing, dog piling, name calling and flames will come of it
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I mostly read the thread out of a huge sense of morbid curiosity and an overwhelming influence to procrastinate on some now-forgotten project.
I have ZERO concerns about whether or not the Pathfinder RPG will be a huge success for us.
I'm really quite tickled by the whole thing, and I can't wait until the final book comes out.
Was kinda like watching a train wreak wasn't it. You know it was bad, but just had to look
I mostly read the thread out of a huge sense of morbid curiosity and an overwhelming influence to procrastinate on some now-forgotten project.
I have ZERO concerns about whether or not the Pathfinder RPG will be a huge success for us.
I'm really quite tickled by the whole thing, and I can't wait until the final book comes out.
LOL,
So, Erik, can you give a hint as to how many presales you've had? No specifics required, but is it dozens, hundreds, or thousands? I'm hoping for thousands obviously, but expecting it to be in the mid to high hundreds.
but... really really... I can't stand their translations of RPG Books :S and they translate it ALL by LAW!!it iks me and some of my friends as someone from usa would irk to listen british english (and viceversa)
so... just personal taste :P
Well, I am from Spain and I cannot agree more with you... Well, at least from late 90s-2000s translations. Since AD&D 2nd ed, I cannot think of a product which does not produce careless translations, false friends, grammatical sloppiness and other language disasters. Even if I have to pay hefty shipping fees, I will not touch a Spanish ed of a RPG with a 10' pole.
Actually I got a couple. Big mistake. You need study and concordance tables to figure out which monsters (spells, feats, but especially monsters) are which when running a translated module with English rules.
Just to be fair, the situation was a bit better in the late 80s and early 90s: I remember the good quality of the (scant) Basic D&D products released; and Joc Internacional did really a good work at putting out CoC and Runequest.
Back in the day translation was a better-considered and better-payed profession. Now publishers see translation fees as one of the most expendable phases of book publication.
So, I don't think it's so much a matter of dialect, but of bad book publishing.
Will there be a free SRD for PFRPG once the book comes out?
That is about the only way I am going to bother looking it over (well that and paging through it in a book store while waiting on my wife).
Artwork definitely is not going to sell me on it.
PLEASE. PLEASE. PLEASE for the love of Cheliax can you guys institute a fracking ignore function on these boards?
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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So, Erik, can you give a hint as to how many presales you've had? No specifics required, but is it dozens, hundreds, or thousands? I'm hoping for thousands obviously, but expecting it to be in the mid to high hundreds.
LOL. If it was in the mid to high hundreds I would be hanging heavier than David Carradine right now.
Will there be a free SRD for PFRPG once the book comes out?
That is about the only way I am going to bother looking it over (well that and paging through it in a book store while waiting on my wife).
Artwork definitely is not going to sell me on it.
Yes, they confirmed almost all of it will be OGL (except some proper names and the deities).
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Will there be a free SRD for PFRPG once the book comes out?
That is about the only way I am going to bother looking it over (well that and paging through it in a book store while waiting on my wife).
Artwork definitely is not going to sell me on it.
Well, I really appreciate you so generously "bothering" to look over the game! Thanks for the show of support, Pres Man! Your free Pathfinder RPG Launch Poster is in the mail!*
There is a free fan-created SRD for the Beta online now, and I imagine a final version will follow very shortly after release. I'm not sure if we will be able to get our own out in time before an enterprising fan sets one up, but I fully expect it to happen soon after the game is released.
Thank you again for your generous endorsement of the game! I am really shocked! You've always seemed like such a grumpus up until now.
--Erik
* Ok, not really.
I get a bit irritated every time I read someone's post saying "you can't have a (negative) opinion on the final product because it could be completely different than the Pathfinder Beta and/or completely different than what the previews have shown" (paraphrased).Same arguments used about criticizing 4E before it was in our hands. One doesn't have to eat the meal to be turned off by the smell coming from the kitchen.
And then when the game actually comes out it gets changed to "you can't have a (negative) opinion on the rules until you've played it". :-)
Thank you again for your generous endorsement of the game! I am really shocked! You've always seemed like such a grumpus up until now.
Damn you Eric Mona! That's some funny stuff.
So, Erik, can you give a hint as to how many presales you've had? No specifics required, but is it dozens, hundreds, or thousands? I'm hoping for thousands obviously, but expecting it to be in the mid to high hundreds.LOL. If it was in the mid to high hundreds I would be hanging heavier than David Carradine right now.
LOL,
That's just so wrong on so many levels. :)Seriously, I hope it hits mid-hundreds by August. I think the sooner you get the subscription set up, the sooner you'll get more pre-orders.
And then when the game actually comes out it gets changed to "you can't have a (negative) opinion on the rules until you've played it". :-)I get a bit irritated every time I read someone's post saying "you can't have a (negative) opinion on the final product because it could be completely different than the Pathfinder Beta and/or completely different than what the previews have shown" (paraphrased).Same arguments used about criticizing 4E before it was in our hands. One doesn't have to eat the meal to be turned off by the smell coming from the kitchen.
Well to be honest with 4e we went in the fallowing stages
1. Wait till it comes out and read it2. wait off saying you dont like it till you played it
3. Play more then 5 times before you say you dont like it
4. give it a few months before you dont like it
5 wait till book x comes out and try it again
6. repeat steps 1-3 every time a new book comes out
Reall this is what I have heard from more then 10 people on more then 3 forums. Also though something about getting the DDI in at lest 3 times
You misread me, MDT. I would consider "high hundreds" depressingly low at this point. I am not depressed in the slightest.
A "Better Question" might be, can you print them fast enough? :)
[
Seriously, I hope it hits mid-hundreds by August. I think the sooner you get the subscription set up, the sooner you'll get more pre-orders.
I'm actually waiting for the subscription myself. Having the books in PDF form is a BIIIIIIIIIIIIG plus.
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one.
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I've been disappointed with a few of the changes to date from the Beta to final, but I do want to say this: Even the worst change is something I can easily houserule and the rest are still INFINITELY better than 3.5. So, while I'm disappointed in a few changes, it's sort of like being disappointed in your flying car for not being able to go into space. :)
Will there be a free SRD for PFRPG once the book comes out?
That is about the only way I am going to bother looking it over (well that and paging through it in a book store while waiting on my wife).
Artwork definitely is not going to sell me on it.
Well, I really appreciate you so generously "bothering" to look over the game! Thanks for the show of support, Pres Man! Your free Pathfinder RPG Launch Poster is in the mail!*
There is a free fan-created SRD for the Beta online now, and I imagine a final version will follow very shortly after release. I'm not sure if we will be able to get our own out in time before an enterprising fan sets one up, but I fully expect it to happen soon after the game is released.
Thank you again for your generous endorsement of the game! I am really shocked! You've always seemed like such a grumpus up until now.
--Erik
* Ok, not really.
And this is exactly the kind of professional response I have come to expect from the Paizo staff to a paying customer (just not a PFRPG fanboy).
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I've been disappointed with a few of the changes to date from the Beta to final, but I do want to say this: Even the worst change is something I can easily houserule and the rest are still INFINITELY better than 3.5. So, while I'm disappointed in a few changes, it's sort of like being disappointed in your flying car for not being able to go into space. :)
I have the Beta on my shelf (and on my hard drive). Any changes I don't like between the Beta and the final, well, I have the Beta and the stuff in it :)
And as far as "proof is in the pudding," I direct you to this link
And to all you snickerers at the Paizo banquet who thought I mispronounced "Bestiary" because I didn't say it like "BEAST-e-airy," I direct you to this link.
Be sure to click the little speaker. :)
Hey, I was called "Blaze-jay" every which way at PaizoCon! You should be able to put up with a little giggling! :)