I have heard "You draw more flies with honey than with vinegar."
While this may be true, you definitely draw more flies with a big old steaming pile of poo-doo.
Oh, wait, this isn't helping...
I now have a disturbing mental image of a Tarrasque taking a dump... I hate you.
I've come to a conclusion... Paizo/Pathfinder shackles their employees in the basement in front of their computers.
Almost 9pm(12am EST here) at night and I assure you the Newspaper Publisher and his (pardon my term, I love my bosses :P) management peons are not sitting here on a computer replying to disgruntled customers on a forum. Yet I've seen replies within the hour from Erik Mona, Vic Wertz and now Jason B. Shackles in the basement I tell you!!
I now have a disturbing mental image of a Tarrasque taking a dump... I hate you.I have heard "You draw more flies with honey than with vinegar."
While this may be true, you definitely draw more flies with a big old steaming pile of poo-doo.
Oh, wait, this isn't helping...
*PLOP* So much for that village!
So, when we say "give us a chance, take a look at the final rules", that is not a cop out.
Not to pander, but I think these words are well spoken and need to be taken into consideration. While I understand people have their opinions (and are well entitled to them), I find it odd that "conclusions" can be made without having seen the final product. It's not nearly as bad here as over on some other sites, but I find it...well...odd...
As an aside, as much as I have loved seeing the previews, this is one of their inherent dangers - they provide a snapshot, focusing on particular elements without letting one see the entire picture. That being said, I'm really looking forward to seeing the pally preview... ;)
AJC
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Dread... there has been more of 1 year of playtesting... after that year as much as Paizo people deserve their opinion... even if you dislike it, if you do... leave the thread isntead of beginning flamming people for their rights...
Montalve, Im not flaming anyone. He has his rights to his opinion. I never said he didnt. My question is 'what does he hope will come out of this thread'?
People do things for a reason. Id like to know what his was.
He stated that he knew nothing would come out of it. Some folks have posted saying they believe Disenchanter is 'venting'. This may be true. I haven't seen a post from him saying that was his intent. To Vent.
He has a right to his opinion. I also have a right to mine. Notice, I havent said one contrary thing to his 'not liking Pathfinder' Thats his right. My only issue is with the intent of the Thread...which by its very nature doesnt seem like something designed to Vent, but rather to criticize a company that I feel goes far and beyond what 95% of the companies out there do to try and satisfy the customer. This is my issue. So please dont say Im flaming someone, because that has a bad connotation. I try and stay away from that kind of posting.
I actually rather like Etymology...very fun stuff.
I agree. I have been capturing bugs and putting them in albums since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. Oh, wait you said etymology, my bad.
I find it odd that "conclusions" can be made without having seen the final product.
Again?
This opinion again?
I guess it is an internet rule, that the more that post the same thing the greater the truthfulness of the thing.
It isn't like the same thing has been posted already in this thread, and drove me to make an inappropriate post (y'all should feel privileged, I was given much more material to work with in this thread. I could have been my true self several times over). Not to mention discounted several other times by those with cooler heads than mine.
But I guess this is just a fine example of being constructive...
*PLOP* So much for that village!I now have a disturbing mental image of a Tarrasque taking a dump... I hate you.I have heard "You draw more flies with honey than with vinegar."
While this may be true, you definitely draw more flies with a big old steaming pile of poo-doo.
Oh, wait, this isn't helping...
This reminds me of a local advertisment going around a few years ago...
EDIT:
I will acquire the new rule book and then I will do what I have been doing every time since shortly after some friends acquired the original white box. I adapt. I use rules I like, ignore rules that are too difficult to implement. And do something in between with all the other rules.
When I play 3.5, I still use some 1e, 2e, JG and Arduin stuff. There will be items from PFRPG I will use. I might even push Pathfinder to the base system that the other rules are edited from. That is the beauty of the game. You only have to use what you want.
A few hours? what are you trying to make me stay up all night or something Jason? Thats just wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself, for teasing.
These seem to come out in the morning. A few hours after daybreak, PST, more or less.
I think "a few hours" was taken quite liberally here.
I could be wrong.
I sure hope Jason is not in the "Daily = every time I wake up from a nap" crowd, because if he is, who knows how many days "a few hours" might really mean...
Take the rage points for example (just because they were recently mentioned). We did roll these back... a bit. If you were an active part of the playtest, you saw that system. Now, you might claim that we were responding to folks that complained without considering the silent folks that liked the new system, but you would be mistaken. The compromise we came up with was long considered and in the end, it makes for a smoother system, with less paperwork. You still have rage powers, you can still rage more than once per day, even at first level, but there is a little less math involved, which is a plus in a game as complicated as this.
In general, I have no qualms with any of the rollbacks. I trust, understand, and agree with most of Paizo's decisions.
I playtested the new and old barbarian rules in RotRl #3 at Hook Mountain. The new rules were better. The old rules tended toward 3.5 wizard 'I blow all my points in one round and then can't do anything,' in addition to being in general clunkier.
However, the new rules as posted aren't perfect. I feel they are too closely tied to swift actions (a sensible limit to player power/actions per turn) that tended to break the class down to which swift/immediate action will I use this turn, as well as canceling out other non-class swift actions (dodge, for instance).
If the rules for barbs are still swift/immediate heavy, I will probably house rule a fix of some kind.
Carry on with the good work.
I actually rather like Etymology...very fun stuff.I agree. I have been capturing bugs and putting them in albums since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. Oh, wait you said etymology, my bad.
No "n" in etymology. No "y" in entomology.
And all our collections are already in albums. Or books. tomes, librams, volumes, lexicons, codices, treatises, or even scrolls. Or whatever.
*PLOP* So much for that village!I now have a disturbing mental image of a Tarrasque taking a dump... I hate you.I have heard "You draw more flies with honey than with vinegar."
While this may be true, you definitely draw more flies with a big old steaming pile of poo-doo.
Oh, wait, this isn't helping...
This reminds me of a local advertisment going around a few years ago...
EDIT:
** spoiler omitted **
Ewww. I don't know what they're saying, but that lizard thing needs his colon checked...
I guess he's been eating too many elves. Not enough roughage.
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Yet comparing a new rpg to an old existing one with new rules and don't kid yourselves. Call it what you want PF, 3.75 whatever it still will be seen as a houseruled 3.5. Is not the best comparison.
Dark Heresy system is based on WFRPG (existing material) and the fluff is based on WH40K fluff (existing material), so the "new RPG" argument doesn't really hold, IMHO.
...and then you fall to the ground like a soccer player faking a foul when I push back a little.ZOMG! You're insulting all the European Pathfinder fans by inserting American-isms into your analogies Mona! I'm so offended I'm just going to take my toys and go pre-order a copy of the PFRPG.
(Yeah, spent way too much time today talking nice to f*@$-wits today. Your candor and ruthless sarcasm is much appreciated, so you get some money.)
Something tells me he wasn't even close to ruthless... that struck me as nice mild playful sarcasm. I've seen ruthless, ruthless attacks a mans soul, if anyones soul was damaged by Mona's responses to this pres man person then they simply don't deserve one and should go chat with Asmodeus about a contract for a can of Coke.
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He has a right to his opinion. I also have a right to mine. Notice, I havent said one contrary thing to his 'not liking Pathfinder' Thats his right. My only issue is with the intent of the Thread...which by its very nature doesnt seem like something designed to Vent, but rather to criticize a company that I feel goes far and beyond what 95% of the companies out there do to try and satisfy the customer. This is my issue. So please dont say Im flaming someone, because that has a bad connotation. I try and stay away from that kind of posting.
he critiziced a product
not the companyas I have done... again, whichever path I take I wish Paizo the best of lucks because I know they put soul and heart in their products...
*mumbles grumbles* dammit paizo... now I like the paladin... good work that is close to what i saw in the forums second version... still i am a bit mad for the cleric :P (eyah yeah, just causing trouble :P)
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he critiziced a product
not the company
To be fair Montalve, I certainly think the thread started that way but then it shifted. I felt compelled to respond as it was more than opinion about the product.
In saying, enough has been said. I believe everyone has a right to their opinion. Life lesson with that is that as adults we have to learn with the consequences of that... and I like to think I try to be full informed before I state mine.
I hope everything works out for all because at the end of the day it is a game and it is about having fun and being happy.
This opinion again?
Just an observation.
AJC
I am probably just a Fanboy - I have liked everything so far.
I have enjoyed being in on the play test (not that I contributed much). I loved the ideas that were floated in the Alpha and Beta.
I also understand that it has to stay compatible with 3.5. So that if I wanted to pick up say Age of Worms I would not have to spend time fafing about trying to convert stuff.
The feed back from the guys I play with is very positive as well in regards to the previews .... I wouldn't call them fanboys as only one of them spends time on the boards and the rest have never visited Paizo.... (they only care as it is the system I choose to run as GM) if they dislike the system they tell me and we house rule or change to a different game system as needs be.
I get the feeling and I hope that I will be corrected if I am wrong - a lot of the cool alternative ideas will be appearing in some follow up PRPG products so that you can plug them into your game.
I can understand that some people have felt that some of the previews do not mesh with their style....
I can also understand that people saying see the whole before judging it can be annoying.....
but ;-)
My perception (and please don't take it as me attacking anybody)is that saying that you don't like it before assessing it as a whole is like banning "Lady Chatterley's Lover" as porn because you have only read the rude bits. Where the whole story is so much more than that (I do like rude bits and there should be more of them).
The people that are saying reserve your judgement until you have had a chance to have a look (not blindly purchase)either through a SRD or in store aren't trying to beat you down, I think most of them are really excited and are evangelicalisticaly (is that a word) trying to get you to share their excitement (I know I am).
Like I said I am a fanboy.... I have enjoyed every moment of the process from my comfy chair - not having to do any of the hard work that Jason and the other Paizo dudes have...
All I can say is I know of no other RPG company that has allowed us this much access to their creative processes - that have been so responsive to our questions and concerns or set bar for quality that they will be held to.
The Paizo team know that if we have concerns about their direction (as some have already voiced at this time), we aren't afraid to ask or call them on it. As we know that we will get a response, either explaining why or taking your views where practical into consideration, I don't see that happening anywhere else or with any other RPG company.
To be fair Montalve, I certainly think the thread started that way but then it shifted. I felt compelled to respond as it was more than opinion about the product.
he critiziced a product
not the company
When and where did it shift.
Go on. Take the time to back up your statement.
I'll wait. Since I went out of my way to not criticise the company, the people behind the product, and even the product itself, I challenge you to point out where it shifted.
I get the feeling this is very much like the Hook Mountain Massacre uproar over "torture porn" and people are just projecting their own insecurities onto other peoples' posts.
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To be fair Montalve, I certainly think the thread started that way but then it shifted. I felt compelled to respond as it was more than opinion about the product.When and where did it shift.
Go on. Take the time to back up your statement.
I'll wait. Since I went out of my way to not criticise the company, the people behind the product, and even the product itself, I challenge you to point out where it shifted.
I get the feeling this is very much like the Hook Mountain Massacre uproar over "torture porn" and people are just projecting their own insecurities onto other peoples' posts.
Okay Disenchanter. I will raise the white flag and turn the cheek. I think it is pointless to have a pissing contest. I prefer a positive vibe in life.
I see your point about disappointment... I just hope that the whole package has enough so many folks can enjoy it. Use what they like... in thinking about it 3.5, beta and PFRPG has more than enough material so my OGL and PFRPG games will be spiced up. House rules ahoy... and no more presitage twinks that my players love... heres hoping.
We, my group, are really happy as we get a new play book that replaces the old 3.5 book that are super expensive.
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To be fair Montalve, I certainly think the thread started that way but then it shifted. I felt compelled to respond as it was more than opinion about the product.When and where did it shift.
Go on. Take the time to back up your statement.
I'll wait. Since I went out of my way to not criticise the company, the people behind the product, and even the product itself, I challenge you to point out where it shifted.
I get the feeling this is very much like the Hook Mountain Massacre uproar over "torture porn" and people are just projecting their own insecurities onto other peoples' posts.
Okay Disenchanter. I will raise the white flag and turn the cheek. I think it is pointless to have a pissing contest. I prefer a positive vibe in life.
I see your point about disappointment... I just hope that the whole package has enough so many folks can enjoy it. Use what they like... in thinking about it 3.5, beta and PFRPG has more than enough material so my OGL and PFRPG games will be spiced up. House rules ahoy... and no more presitage twinks that my players love... heres hoping.
We, my group, are really happy as we get a new play book that replaces the old 3.5 book that are super expensive.
as i said twice before, lets rest the thread
yes the thread began quite normal... it grew normal, then as it must and by experience is ienxcable it went downhill... how? people began atacking the OP and those who believe like him... instead of debating the topic...
if you need everything to be well informed its cool... some need just to analize wht information they have
as always I repeat... whichever we all do I hope and wish the ebst for Paizo... because I love their products, even if not fully thrilled by one...
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I am probably just a Fanboy - I have liked everything so far.
I like the way Paizo does business, and I like their product. That's enough to ensure my custom for a while, as long as the status remains "quo".
I have enjoyed being in on the play test (not that I contributed much). I loved the ideas that were floated in the Alpha and Beta.
After 1000 posts + in the playtest forums, I'm curious to see if any of my input was used :)
I also understand that it has to stay compatible with 3.5.
This may be my only nit to pick. I understand the reason for BC, but I still think it tied Jason's hands a bit.
The feed back from the guys I play with is very positive as well in regards to the previews .... I wouldn't call them fanboys as only one of them spends time on the boards and the rest have never visited Paizo.... (they only care as it is the system I choose to run as GM) if they dislike the system they tell me and we house rule or change to a different game system as needs be.
Eh, the previews are just to showcase some of the changes in the system. I don't understand some of the Char Op whines about the builds. (Not really responding to your quote here, just making an observation...).
the fighter disappointed a bit, but I've been houseruling stuff since '79, so no biggie.
The people that are saying reserve your judgment until you have had a chance to have a look (not blindly purchase)either through a SRD or in store aren't trying to beat you down, I think most of them are really excited and are evangelically (is that a word) trying to get you to share their excitement (I know I am).
Bolded part is the word you're looking for.
:)
Look. The Paizo people took on a difficult task, updating the 3x rules set without changing so much old stuff won't work with it. They were constrained by backward compatibility, so there are probably things that Jason wanted to change, but couldn't. (Again, not really responding to your quote, just making an observation).
Even if I just use PfRPG the way I use the Green Ronin "Advanced" books and the Malhavoc stuff, I'm still going to pick up the book. Paizo needs revenue to keep producing what I really want, which is the best published scenarios going for d20 right now. So dropping $50 on a book I may just cherry pick from (along with the Beta) is just my way of making sure they have some more operating capital.
Seriously, even if I don't use half the stuff on my book shelf I've bought from here, without Paizo, these forums (which I really dig) wouldn't be here either. So, all in all, Paizo peeps, go on with your bad selves, keep cranking out the APs and modules at the quality level I've become accustomed to, and I'm here for ya ;)
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Look. The Paizo people took on a difficult task, updating the 3x rules set without changing so much old stuff won't work with it. They were constrained by backward compatibility, so there are probably things that Jason wanted to change, but couldn't. (Again, not really responding to your quote, just making an observation).
Somewhere in one of these threads is a suggestion for an 'Unearthed Arcana' type of book that could contain some of the more radical things Jason wanted to do but didn't for whatever reason. This could be an interesting product, unless it totally changed the way the game works, then it could end up being confusing or potentially counter productive. I don't know, maybe someting to ponder. (Because he doesn't have nearly enough on his plate.)
So, Erik, can you give a hint as to how many presales you've had? No specifics required, but is it dozens, hundreds, or thousands? I'm hoping for thousands obviously, but expecting it to be in the mid to high hundreds.LOL. If it was in the mid to high hundreds I would be hanging heavier than David Carradine right now.
And remeber. Some of us from Europe will preorder it from Amazon (sorry but it's cheaper...but we do buy the book).
I'm from Europe and I like soccer so I really I liked the soccer analogy, it was great :-)
And even though I don't like everything I like most of it and I like it a lot.
The price of the item was a concern and Paizo did seek feedback about it. I believe they went ahead and add more stuff based on peoples feedback. The PFRPG will have a modest amount of products per year so as you add things up it is reasonable.
If anything the book is underpriced relative to other tomes of its size. The Dark Heresy rulebook, for example, is about the same size but $10 more expensive, and with less art.
I was very pleased at the PaizoCon banquet when Jason Bulmahn held up the actual printed copy and everyone gasped at the sheer size of it.
I heard two people at the table behind me say "Holy s~*#, I thought it would be a ripoff but look how huge it is! I am totally getting that!"
The proof will be in the pudding, as they say, but I am not in the least bit worried that people will think the book is too expensive once they've had a chance to see the genuine article.
Odd...A well-bound, full color book of that size is a total steal at $50; I'm a little surprised that is an issue...
...I can't stand W.A.R.'s art...
Amen, brother. I think we're the only two...
Amen, brother. I think we're the only two......I can't stand W.A.R.'s art...
Make that three.
Nor do I think that the fans on rpg.net should just be discounted out of hand. As I said before don't just go by what is posted on this site. Being the Paizo forums it's going to be overwhlemingly positive. Discounting what is being said becuase it's mostly negative is a mistake. Who knows maybe some might change their minds and buy PF. I have seen too many companies just hear the praise and ignore everything else. It's not as if you can pretend that their is nothing else on the internet besides the Paizo forums.
I think it's been very clear, over the course of the playtest and within this thread, that the Paizo board is no hotbed of asskissery when it comes to PF. People have spoken up quite vigorously when they felt negatively about a rule or a product.
I would not advocate dismissing rpg.net posters out of hand either, but I would certainly take anything from sites that have particularly negative atmospheres with a hefty grain of salt. When it comes to information, it's worthwhile to considering the source and context. They will help you evaluate the value of the information.
I think it's been very clear, over the course of the playtest and within this thread, that the Paizo board is no hotbed of asskissery when it comes to PF. People have spoken up quite vigorously when they felt negatively about a rule or a product.
QFT and underlined.