Upon talking with Flash_cxxi Tonight and haveing thoughts on flying races from that talk I wrote this down. Was trying for something not just under +1LA it is pathfinder based. So I'll post and would like feedback on if it's to good or not.
Avian Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution: Avian are nimble, and perceptive, but their bones are light and hollow making for a frail form.
Medium sized: Avian are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Movement: Avian have a base speed of 20 feet as they do not walk but rather take bird like short hops. They do however have a fly speed of 40 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Asians can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
Keen Senses: Avian receive a +2 bonus on sight Perception checks
Nimble: Avian receive a +2 racial bonus on acrobatics checks
Air’s child: Avian are creatures of that sky as such they always have Fly as a class skill and gain it as a bonus skill at first level. Also for every 10 ranks an avian puts into the fly skill his base flight increases by 10 feet. If an Avian has a class ability that increases speed apply to fly speed only and is always half listed bonus.Farther more an Avian may never wear armor heaver then light and may not wear armor not designed for his race
Natural attacks: Avian have talons on both hands and feet. That inflicts 1d4 +Str damage. They are always proficient in their use. However they take normal penalties for multiple attacks without the proper feats.
Claustrophobic: Avian are a race of the open sky and the wide outdoors. As such they are unnerved by enclosed spaces and suffer a -4 circumstance penalty on all attack, skill, caster and willpower checks while in an enclosed space
Languages: Avian begin play speaking Common and
Avian. Elves with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Draconic,, Auran and Sylvan.
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I don't know that you needed some of the changes you made from the draft you sent me, I thought it was relatively balanced as it was and so I've fixed up what I thought should change. I quite like it.
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution: Avian are nimble, and perceptive, but their bones are light and hollow, making for a frail form.
Medium sized: Avian are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Movement: Avian have a base speed of 20 feet as they do not walk but rather take bird like short hops. They do however have a fly speed of 40 feet (Average).
Low-Light Vision: Avians can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
Keen Senses: Avian receive a +2 bonus on sight based Perception checks.
Nimble: Avian receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Child of the Air: Avian are creatures of the sky and as such they always have Fly as a class skill. Also for every 10 an Avian has in the Fly skill, his base fly speed increases by 10 feet.
If an effect would increase an Avian's speed, he may apply this to fly or ground speed not both. Make the choice when the speed increase is gained and it may not be changed. This applies to both permanent and temporary increases.
Natural attacks: Avian have talons on both hands and feet. That inflicts 1d4 + STR damage. They are always proficient in their use. However they take normal penalties for multiple attacks without the proper feats.
Claustrophobic: Avian are a race of the open sky and the wide outdoors. As such they are unnerved by enclosed spaces and suffer a -4 circumstance penalty on all attacks, skill & caster checks and will saves while in an enclosed space.
Languages: Avian begin play speaking Common and Avian. Avian with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following as bonus languages: Draconic, Auran and Sylvan.
+0 LA
hummm only thing I changed was
From
Air’s child: Avian are creatures of that sky as such they always have Fly as a class skill and gain it as a bonus skill at first level. Also for every 10 ranks an avian puts into the fly skill his base flight increases by 10 feet. If an Avian has a class ability that increases speed he may apply this to fly or ground speed not both
To
Air’s child: Avian are creatures of that sky as such they always have Fly as a class skill and gain it as a bonus skill at first level. Also for every 10 ranks an avian puts into the fly skill his base flight increases by 10 feet. If an Avian has a class ability that increases speed apply to fly speed only and is always half listed bonus. Farther more an Avian may never wear armor heaver then light and may not wear armor not designed for his race
I made the changed mostly due to flavor.
1. i Didn't see the bird like hopping movement as a fast moving ability.
2. While I did see an increasing in flight I though +10 be to much
3. The armor is mostly flavor and a bit of common sense as well it would have to be backless, non bulky and take into account the movement of the wings
Do ya think I went to far? Should I allow fast movement and such to apply for either ground or fly? or should fly not be halved?
Should I not limit them to light armor?
Edit:
Ok sorry I see what you changed. I like the wording you used better, but still think I might keep the armor thing. Am not sure however
Low-Light Vision: Asians can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
Racist! ;-)
Low-Light Vision: Asians can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.Racist! ;-)
Yep hummm I am blaming that one on firefox's spell check.
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Ok sorry I see what you changed. I like the wording you used better, but still think I might keep the armor thing. Am not sure however.
I honestly don't think it's necessary. Maybe something along the lines of: "Unless the armour is specifically made for the Avian, it will have to be altered by someone with a a DC 10-15 Craft (Armoursmith) Check".
yeah But dont think they would or even could wear heavy armor. It's just bulky
yep I like your change, also was weighting maybe making the -4 for claustrophobia a -2. But may keep it and just drop the will save part maybe
or do you find it fine as is?
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yep I like your change, also was weighting maybe making the -4 for claustrophobia a -2. But may keep it and just drop the will save part maybe
or do you find it fine as is?
hmmm, I did like the -4, but now that I look at it again I am thinking that -2 may be better seeing as how the minus effects so many different things. -4 on all of them amy seem a little harsh. I would probably make the change to -2 and keep the Will Save part in.
I'm impressed - I didn't think you'd convince me of a balanced LA+0 flying race.
It's a bit lopsided (great outside, terrible inside), but pretty good. I think the -2 is a bit of a stretch (as low for balance), but I think you can get away with it. If you do though, I'd nix the +2 Wis (net of only -1 Will inside with it).
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So this gives us:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution: Avian are nimble, and perceptive, but their bones are light and hollow, making for a frail form.
Medium sized: Avian are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Movement: Avian have a base speed of 20 feet as they do not walk but rather take bird like short hops. They do however have a fly speed of 40 feet (Average).
Low-Light Vision: Avians can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
Keen Senses: Avian receive a +2 bonus on sight based Perception checks.
Nimble: Avian receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Child of the Air: Avian are creatures of the sky and as such they always have Fly as a class skill. Also for every 10 an Avian has in the Fly skill, his base fly speed increases by 10 feet.
If an effect would increase an Avian's speed, he may apply this to fly or ground speed not both. Make the choice when the speed increase is gained and it may not be changed. This applies to both permanent and temporary increases.
An Avian may never wear armor heaver then light and may not wear armor not designed for his race without it being altered with a DC 15 Craft (Armoursmith) Check.
Natural attacks: Avian have talons on both hands and feet. That inflicts 1d4 + STR damage. They are always proficient in their use. However they take normal penalties for multiple attacks without the proper feats.
Claustrophobic: Avian are a race of the open sky and the wide outdoors. As such they are unnerved by enclosed spaces and suffer a -2 circumstance penalty on all attacks, skill & caster checks and will saves while in an enclosed space.
Languages: Avian begin play speaking Common and Avian. Avian with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following as bonus languages: Draconic, Auran and Sylvan.
+0 LA
I'm no ornithologist, nor am I willing to try to calculate the physics on this, but I'm dubious that a creature with a top flight speed of 40 (that's only 33% faster than human walking speed) can stay in flight.
I imagine that if they could, it's because their wings are too small for their form/weight, and they are flapping madly, much like a man who can't swim would flail and splash futilely at the water.
Only it wouldn't be futile; it would allow the race to remain airborn, but they would look frantic and ungainly while they do it.
Which then belies an "average" flight category - I'd bump that down one category worse, if it were me.
I'd also envision that all that flapping makes them somewhat unstable and makes it impractical to attempt precision-based stuff in flight. Aiming spells, firing missile weapons, and such. Maybe impose a stiff pentaly, like -4 to attacks, and a mandatory spellcraft check on all airborn spellcasting with a -4 penalty on the roll.
It may seem harsh, but it goes well with the slow speed and the fluff I envision about the difficulty they face at just remaining airborn.
But mainly, it's to prevent them from having an easy "win button" with their wings.
Think about this.
You roll up a Human ranger, level 1. Then you go out on a solo adventure and your first encounter is a hunting party of 12 orcs. What do you do? Easy - you run away and get help because trying to engage them would be suicide.
Or...
You roll up an Avian ranger, level 1. Then you go flying out on a solo adventure and your first encounter is a hunting party of 12 orcs. What do you do? Easy - you fly up about 300 feet and pick them off one by one with your longbow, confident that even if they have bows and crossbows, they can't fire them upward, against gravity, and even have a chance to hit you. When they're all dead, you happily go loot them. Oh, and you're level 2 now; congratulations! Now it's time to go find a band of ogres...
Mechanically speaking, permanent unlimited flight at will is a huge huge ability. It defeats city walls, castle ramparts, moats, towers, cliffs, rivers, lavaflows, chasms, ravines, and all kinds of other obstacles, all of which are frequently used in low-level play: nobody bothers to write an adventure for 15th level characters where reaching the top of a cliff is an obstacle, but it's done all the time for low-level characters.
Heck, even basic stuff like being lost in a forest and not sure where to find the tower of the evil necromancer suddely becomes trivial when the flier goes out on a 15-minute flight and comes back with exact directions to the tower.
Yet, with this race, all of that goes right out the window.
That's a huge ability.
Combine that with the "easy win" button of picking off enemies who have no chance of reaching you and unlimited at-will flight at level 1 is probably never a 0 LA.
I'm impressed - I didn't think you'd convince me of a balanced LA+0 flying race.
It's a bit lopsided (great outside, terrible inside), but pretty good. I think the -2 is a bit of a stretch (as low for balance), but I think you can get away with it. If you do though, I'd nix the +2 Wis (net of only -1 Will inside with it).
humm good points the +2 wis and the -2 would cancel out...humm I'll leave it at -4
How bout
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution: Avian are nimble, and perceptive, but their bones are light and hollow, making for a frail form.
Medium sized: Avian are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Movement: Avian have a base speed of 20 feet as they do not walk but rather take bird like short hops. They do however have a fly speed of 40 feet (Average).
Low-Light Vision: Avians can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
Keen Senses: Avian receive a +2 bonus on sight based Perception checks.
Nimble: Avian receive a +2 racial bonus on jump based Acrobatics checks.
Child of the Air: Avian are creatures of the sky and as such they always have Fly as a class skill. Also for every 10 an Avian has in the Fly skill, his base fly speed increases by 10 feet.
If an effect would increase an Avian's speed, he may apply this to fly or ground speed not both. Make the choice when the speed increase is gained and it may not be changed. This applies to both permanent and temporary increases.
An Avian may never wear armor heaver then light and may not wear armor not designed for his race without it being altered with a DC 15 Craft (Armoursmith) Check.
Natural attacks: Avian have talons on both hands and feet. That inflicts 1d4 + STR damage. They are always proficient in their use. However they take normal penalties for multiple attacks without the proper feats.
Claustrophobic: Avian are a race of the open sky and the wide outdoors. As such they are unnerved by enclosed spaces and suffer a -4 circumstance penalty on all attacks, skill & caster checks and will saves while in an enclosed space.
Languages: Avian begin play speaking Common and Avian. Avian with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following as bonus languages: Draconic, Auran and Sylvan.
+0 LA
lots of stuff
the slow speed is a balance , also overland flight would be better then walking as ya know clear sky and all
as for the ranger, you forget the fly skill. orcs scatter, you cant see for one they pick ya off, or ya fail your hover check and start to fall...they pick ya off.
not much diff then hidding in a tall tree or a bluff over looking them, which also can be done at level 1.
and if they go inside,well -4 doth suck
humm unless I move the +2 wis to +2 cha....then I could drop the -4 to 2
any thoughts on this?
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humm unless I move the +2 wis to +2 cha....then I could drop the -4 to 2
any thoughts on this?
I considered that, but as they don't have the innate charismatic abilities of the Harpy I thought that the +2 WIS was a good idea.
Maybe -2 on all the other stuff and -4 on Will Saves, although that then starts to get a bit convoluted?
Humm yeah wasn't sure on cha, and dont think Int fits. I am more leaning toward keeping the wis and still keeping the -4
but -4 wis could be a real issue.
so
* keep it as is-4
* loose the -4 to will saves
* drop just the will save to -2
thats my current ideal. And maybe I am over thinking and just go with the -4 like I first started with
Also been toying with the ideal of a -2 or so to ranged attacked based on wing movment when airborn.....but again maybe I am over thinking
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Was trying for something not just under +1LA
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution:
They do however have a fly speed of 40 feet.
Natural attacks: Avian have talons on both hands and feet. That inflicts 1d4 +Str damage. They are always proficient in their use. However they take normal penalties for multiple attacks without the proper feats.
Claustrophobic: Avian are a race of the open sky and the wide outdoors. As such they are
There is no way this is LA +0 or LA +1 with those abilities.
Granted, how LA will be handled isn't known until the monster manual is published, but I just don't see how handing out flying, +4 mod to abilities, natural attacks (3x) for LA+0 was ever considered balanced?
A balance of +2 is what is offered in the Pathfinder beta, and it has been assumed will continue to be offered in pathfinder offical.
As such a race with a +2 +2 -2 is a proper start (in pathfinder) as that is what all the other races have, with the exception of humans and half elves which get to pick 1 stat and put a +2 in it.
Was trying for something not just under +1LA
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Constitution:
They do however have a fly speed of 40 feet.
Natural attacks: Avian have talons on both hands and feet. That inflicts 1d4 +Str damage. They are always proficient in their use. However they take normal penalties for multiple attacks without the proper feats.
Claustrophobic: Avian are a race of the open sky and the wide outdoors. As such they are
There is no way this is LA +0 or LA +1 with those abilities.
Granted, how LA will be handled isn't known until the monster manual is published, but I just don't see how handing out flying, +4 mod to abilities, natural attacks (3x) for LA+0 was ever considered balanced?
I would tend to agree here, mostly, but remember that dwarves, elves, gnomes, and halflings all get +2/+2/-2 to their ability scores, so it's not surprising to do the same for a new race.
But this is almost certainly too much.
Let's compare to dwarves, for example.
Ability scores are equivalent - both races get two +2 and one -2.
Size and base land speed are identical. Vision is equivalent - dwarves have darkvision and avians have low-light vision; these are roughly of equal value.
Senses: Dwarves get stonecunning, a marginally useful ability, and keen senses that only apply to taste and smell (rarely used). Avians get keen senses that apply to sight, much more frequently used. I'd call this even.
Dwaves gain Appraisal as a class skill, avians gain Fly as a class skill. This is roughly equivalent, though I think avians may use Fly more than dwarves use Appraisal. Maybe a slight advantage to avians here.
Dwaves are Hearty, +2 on saves vs. poison and magic. This is a very handy racial ability that doesn't compare to any avian ability.
Hatred helps dwarves in some low-level encounters, and Defensive Training helps them in a few mid-level encounters. Small benefit.
Stability aids a dwarf marginally against a few rarely used combat maneuvers. Tiny benefit.
Avians get Nimble, a tiny bonus to checks they will hardly ever need to make. I would say this is about equally useful to dwarven Stability. Tiny benefit.
Natural attacks. Avians are always armed with a four natural attacks. That puts them ahead of 95% of the monster manual in terms of natural attacking. Only things like dragons, hydras, girallon, Mariliths, grells, and a few others can top this. Although, unless they are monks (!!!) the avian will probably prefer a better melee weapon. Still, this is fairly huge benefit, allowing monks to be deadlier, and spellcasters to do damage with touch attacks, etc. This one might compare fairly well with dwaven Hearty ability in terms of usefulness.
Avians can fly. Huge huge huge benefit. This is the "easy win" button. Think of it this way. Pick any racial ability on any core race. Elf, Gnome, whatever. Any ability. Now ask yourself - if you dropped that ability you're thinking of and replaced it with the avian Fly ability, wouldn't that be a HUGE benefit to the race?
We've run out of dwarven abilities to compare with except their Hatred/Defenseive Training. I am absolutely positive that no avian in the world would clip their wings to get those puny little beneifts off the dwarf list.
This benefit of flying is probably a +1 LA all by itself. Maybe even a +2. Balancing it with the Clautrophobic penalty doesn't offset it nearly enough - avians will just avoid those nearly all the time except when they have no other choice, so that penalty is situational at best, and probably inapplicable to most of the Avian's adventuring career. Especially without clearer definition of enclosed space. What about a football stadium with a roof? Does that cause the penalty? What about a temple with a huge open congregation hall? What about a long tall dungeon hallway, 30' high and 40' tall, hundreds of feet long? What about a giant underground cavern (and how giant must it be)?
I'm afraid you've made a race that is overpowered.
It's your race and your campaign. If you and your DM agree, and the other players buy into it, then have fun with it.
But if game balance means much in your campaign, I would knock this creature down a bit more or he will outshine his adventuring buddies.
Unless, of course, this is a campaign in Undermountain, or the World's Largest Dugneon, or something like that where he'll hardly ever see the light of day and almost always suffer those huge claustrophobia penalties.
Side note: why the "Nimble" beneifit on jumping?
If the avian can flap his wings, he won't need to jump. If he can't flap, then his wings won't help him at all.
Elswhere he is described as having a base speed of 20, which is fairly slow for a medium creature, and having to "take bird-like short hops". While he's hopping, he's obviously doing it slower and shorter than a human can walk at a normal walking pace in the same period of time.
Which indicates these are weak hops.
So why are his weak hops worthy of extra jump distance?
If he can't fly over the pit trap, it seems to me, he's too slow and his hops are too weak to be better than humans (et. al.) at making a long-jump to leap over the pit.
Just a thought.
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Interesting race...fairly balanced, but definitely one of those races that kills a lot of low level chalenges...(carry the rope up the wall...across the canyon, out of the pit...) Fly up and scout ahead
for a pure flying PC race, I think a windling adaptation from Earthdawn works best..tiny size, with STR & CON (-6/-4) penalties, to offset the flight ability at first level. Bad fighters, great spellcasters and rogues. (Dex, Int & Cha) Bonuses, since they're quick in both mind and body. Can only fly continuously for CON minutes before needing to rest.
Gnomes, Elves and Halflings would get along best with them. Half-Orcs would probably be really annoyed by them.
I just chanced across your thread and thought I'd offer my two coppers. I think that flight might still outweigh the disadvantages the race as written suffers. Thinking about things I've seen elsewhere, how about having the avian not begin with true flight but start off with some sort of gliding instead? I'm thinking in particular of the raptorans from "Races of the Wild", if you have access to that. Those gain flight at 5 HD, and before that can only "glide", descending at a fixed rate for all horizontal movement. Since avians are claustrophobic, I think they could gain true flight a couple of HD earlier. You already have the avian's flight ability improving (effectively) with HD, and depending on how fast characters advance in your game, a few levels of gliding might not detract from the idea of avians as a flying race while keeping pits, chasms, and so forth a challenge for all characters at least at the beginning of their careers.
A few notes the first post was my draft, the last one I posted I posted the wrong one.I will try and clear up a few things here
1. Jumping. well much like a bird they hop and do not walk. So I added a +2 to jumping based off hopping. sometimes you can not use the wings after all.
2. The nat attacks .I fixed that in version 2 just forgot to post the updated version
Natural attacks: Avian have talons on both hands and feet that inflicts 1d4 +Str damage. They are always proficient in their use. The feet may be used to grasp or hold things but are not fine manipulators and can not be used like hands. A avian my not attack with both feet and arm talons at the same time
so yes they get them but only 2.
3. On the +2/+2-2 well it's a pathfinder based race so yeah it gets 1 extra +2
4. yeah I know flights a big deal and if you never go indoors it can be an issue. But once your indoors, be it cave, building or what have you the -4 is brutal . Any space that gets between them and the sky, that covers them and makes it unable to reach the sky is enclosed
You also need to look at your world as a living thing. If you have orc's and they know a flying race is about, you can dame well bet they have ranged weapons.
5. I myself hate the you can't do x race ability until your x level stuff and will never use it. It reeks of pure mechanics and brakes a living world for me
And thanks for the feedback so far
5. I myself hate the you can't do x race ability until your x level stuff and will never use it. It reeks of pure mechanics and brakes a living world for me
Fair enough, I just thought I'd mention the option in case it had slipped your mind. It wouldn't be my first choice either; I'm probably just more susceptible to the idea of a character more or less growing into an ability from having played a few too many wizened wizard types. Good luck with your work!
Fair enough, I just thought I'd mention the option in case it had slipped your mind. It wouldn't be my first choice either; I'm probably just more susceptible to the idea of a character more or less growing into an ability from having played a few too many wizened wizard types. Good luck with your work!
5. I myself hate the you can't do x race ability until your x level stuff and will never use it. It reeks of pure mechanics and brakes a living world for me
On the other hand, such a mechanic can be covered up with tasty fluff to make it work:
Mature avians are not prone to adventure. They prefer to soar in the skies and dance with the clouds and make little avians. However, juvenile avians, often too young to safely leave the nest, are known to frequently lust for adventure. A lust their avian parents would love to breed out of them.
As a result, most avians who set off to seek adventure are not quite full grown. Nearly so, but they haven't yet come into their full maturity.
Consequently, they haven't fully developed their wings yet. Just enough to fly for a very brief period (a few rounds at a time) or to glide at a downward angle until they safely reach the ground.
That's an easy way to fluff it over, and then tweak the mechanics to suit the fluff. If you wanted to.
If nothing else, it wouldn't be just an arbitrary "can't do X until Y level" mechanical rule.
That would be age not HD.
That would be age not HD.
You're so right.
But we don't really mechanically track age. At least not in any of the games I've seen.
And for me, most of my characters make at least 10th level in their first game year, although I've had a couple campaigns move at a much slower pace (the pace of politics and intrigue rather than monster hunting in dungeons 3 days outside of town).
So tracking by age becomes very awkward for most generic campaigns, which is why I suggested level. Level represents experience, practice, training, working out, and all the things that come with growing more powerful and more skillful and more competent at the things you do. This can easily be handwaived to represent practicing with those new wings and gaining the experience (XP) to learn how to use them better.
But maybe not so true in your campaign. Maybe age is easier to track, and more meaningful. I mean, when a 17-year-old human farm boy can become a 15th level earth-shaking druid before his 19th birthday, what does age really have to do with the game system? That farmboy might be epic level and happily retired to run his new kingdom before he's old enough to vote (that is age 21 here in the U.S. where I live).
Still age and level are not the same, power as you pointed out can flux. However biological functions tend not to. I dont care how smart your baby is he is not walking at 3 months. In that same 3 months you can gain 8 level if ya push it. SO saying like a dragon gains 5 levels...he still does not have stuff from a higher age category even if he now has the HD
So tying fly into HD just kills the world for me. I find it sloppy and will not use it.
If others like it cool but I will not use it
Still age and level are not the same, power as you pointed out can flux. However biological functions tend not to. I dont care how smart your baby is he is not walking at 3 months. In that same 3 months you can gain 8 level if ya push it. SO saying like a dragon gains 5 levels...he still does not have stuff from a higher age category even if he now has the HD
So tying fly into HD just kills the world for me. I find it sloppy and will not use it.
If others like it cool but I will not use it
What about a restriction based on his fly skill instead? IE:
wings Avians are naturally arboreal, but like hummingbirds, they must put significant effort into staying airborne. An Avian can only maintain flight for 10 rounds at a time, and is fatigued for 20 rounds thereafter. As they learn to better control their flight, these penalties decrease. An Avian with 5 ranks in fly can fly for 20 rounds at a time, and is fatigued for 10 rounds thereafter. An Avian with 10 ranks fly can fly for 40 rounds and is fatigued for 5 rounds thereafter. An Avian with 15 or more ranks in fly may fly at will without suffering fatigue. An Avian may glide for as many rounds as he likes, losing 1 foot of altitude for every 5 feet he moves forward without suffering fatigue. Avian's often use a burst of energy to fly as high as possible and then glide while recovering.
You could obviously adjust the number of ranks required so that they can fly unimpeded. If you go with the 5/10/15 suggested above, I'd give them Hover as a racial feat.
Well thats not a bad ideal , but would make the race kinda useless. As is they are not made for ground and limiting flight would pretty soon kill off the race.
They would be a race not adapted to land life yet unable to fly enough to make it meaning full. While a neat ideal tying it to fly skill is the same as HD +4 in flight is enough for most animal and monsters to fly normally. Placing a limit on it is just the same as HD meaning while any other winged critter can fly just fine with +4 I have to have +15 and be 2 HD to fly ok?
The ideal works fine for a gliding race but not for a flying one
Well, again, it's your race. Define it how you want. But what I see here is a race that is either hot or cold.
Outside, this race really shines. Overpowered. They have the "I Win!" button right in their feathery pocket as they neutralize just about any kind of natural or man-made obstacle the DM can invent and defeat just about every encounter the DM devises. After all, how many bands of orcs can be traveling around with their own pet hippogriffs before it gets wierd?
Outdoors, this race soars with the eagles.
Indoors, this race really sucks. They are nerfed to near uselessness. -4 to just about every conceivable roll will make them nearly worthless at everything they try. -4 in most cases equates to 4 levels. If you're a fighter, -4 to hit is like losing 4 levels from your BAB. If your a rogue picking a lock, -4 is like having 4 less skill ranks. -4 to saves is worse than 4 levels. Useless
Indoors, this race is truly an albatross hanging from the party's collective neck.
I find it hard to imagine a player being satisfied with this race, unless the campaign is played almost exclusively outdoors with only very rare incursion into buildings or dungeons. Anything else sounds like a very dissatisfying experience to me.
And all the gods help anyone who rolls up one of these avians and shows up on day one of a new campaign, and only then finds out the party is going into The World's Largets Dungeon...
well thats my thinking the -4 may be a bit much, but then ya need some kind of balance. I am prob gonna put a line in about being unable to use bows or slings while flying as I really cant see them doing that
Myself I just dont see the big "I win" from em. Sure they can fly 40', but suck in doors. also they are at risk more so to flying beasts then folks on the ground. They can be knocked out of the sky with rang just like folks far away, cept no cover.
so yeah they can cross a river, fly over a hill and so on. but they can be seen. Kinda hard to hind in the air, they can be shot down and they just blow indoors. Hell even heavy forest floor would be bad.
I see your point I just fail to see the issue. Take a dwarf in an all underground game, they are better then everyone. What the -4 means is very few take up the call of adventure just like some races such as orcs have a hard time seeing in bright light. Its a thing to overcome most would never want to travel the world looking for stuff. Going deep underground fighting monsters and such, but most humans do not either
well thats my thinking the -4 may be a bit much, but then ya need some kind of balance. I am prob gonna put a line in about being unable to use bows or slings while flying as I really cant see them doing that
Myself I just dont see the big "I win" from em. Sure they can fly 40', but suck in doors. also they are at risk more so to flying beasts then folks on the ground. They can be knocked out of the sky with rang just like folks far away, cept no cover.
so yeah they can cross a river, fly over a hill and so on. but they can be seen. Kinda hard to hind in the air, they can be shot down and they just blow indoors. Hell even heavy forest floor would be bad.
I see your point I just fail to see the issue. Take a dwarf in an all underground game, they are better then everyone. What the -4 means is very few take up the call of adventure just like some races such as orcs have a hard time seeing in bright light. Its a thing to overcome most would never want to travel the world looking for stuff. Going deep underground fighting monsters and such, but most humans do not either
All valid.
As I said, the "I win" button is only outdoors.
Arrows can be shot about 10x as far straight down as they can be straight up, thanks to gravity (more really, but chance of hitting becomes so impossible that it's not worth considering). Then again, gravity isn't a factor in d20/3.x/Pathfinder missile fire, so maybe your DM won't care.
If nothing else, rush in, attack the kobolds, kill a few, and when the fight starts going against, fly away to safety and lick your wounds, come back and do it again. Never lose.
Not to mention the "I win" vs. outdoor obstacles.
What you've done is made a race that is really really great in one environment and really really bad in another.
Worse, the race can neutralize virtually all outdoor obstacles in nearly every adventure I have ever seen published for low-level characters. That's not easy challenges. That's zero challenges when these obstacles are presented.
You've balanced it by making them horrible half the time and awesome the other half. If the campaign swings more one way than the other, that may not be a 50/50 balance.
This will be a very hard race to play. That awsome/sucky duality will bite you in the butt more than a tarrasque would...
The only way I would advise a player in my campaign to consider this race is if I knew for a fact that most of the campaign would be outdoors - if not, then the player will be unhappy. But if so, then the character will press the "I win" button far more often than the 50/50 balance you meant to apply.
Your mileage may vary.
All I ask is that you remember this prediction, and a year or three from now, evaluate how the race went and see if I'm a prophet or not.
The race was made because I was board and wanted to see if I could. As for flying away that tactic works once, the next time they will have nets I know I would and kobolds are crafty same with orc's they may not be real smart but they know how to trap and kill things.
As I have said before I can not see them using bows the wing movement would seem to get in the way to me. Spears maybe crossbows if they can get em but not bows
I Just do not see an "I win" maybe an I can do something easier but not an "i WIN"