Interest, I definitely have. Time is a little harder to come by :( ....
I know the feeling. It's just that your original idea reminded me a bit of the Palladium damage/mega-damage system. Which was probably the only thing from Palladium that worked really well.
So in much the same way that you could fire a machine gun at a tank all day without doing much more than scratching the paint; I could see that no matter how good a lvl 18 fighter is, he's just not holding a candle to someone who is nearly a demigod.
It's an interesting idea and not something I probably ever would have thought of. Might just make "epic" level play more manageable.
So in much the same way that you could fire a machine gun at a tank all day without doing much more than scratching the paint; I could see that no matter how good a lvl 18 fighter is, he's just not holding a candle to someone who is nearly a demigod.
I have a problem with the idea that non-epic characters couldn't hurt an epic one. Players, if they do things properly, can kill avatars of the gods. Why couldn't they be able to take out epic characters?
If you fire that machine gun into an open hatch, you will kill that tank..
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So in much the same way that you could fire a machine gun at a tank all day without doing much more than scratching the paint; I could see that no matter how good a lvl 18 fighter is, he's just not holding a candle to someone who is nearly a demigod.I have a problem with the idea that non-epic characters couldn't hurt an epic one. Players, if they do things properly, can kill avatars of the gods. Why couldn't they be able to take out epic characters?
If you fire that machine gun into an open hatch, you will kill that tank..
Friggin 'cancel' button. :-/
I had said:
If I understand this concept right, it would allow for unlimited level advancement that comes in 'chunks of 20', correct?
It seems not inconceivable to me that high level characters could challenge and even defeat an opponent in the lower ranges of the next higher 'chunk of 20'. Much like 18-20 level parties can currently end up facing 21-22 level beasties and have a reasonable chance of success.
Well, yes, they certainly can kill gods. But gods have an automatic roll of "20" (they just roll dice to check for crits, etc) and a variety of other things in their favor. I could see this to a lesser degree for epic characters. It's not impossible for a 20th level fighter to kill a 21st, it's just unlikely.
Do the new Pathfinder RPG rules "fix" higher level play? Does anyone remember the discussions here and elsewhere about the sweet spot of the 3.5 rules?
Creative Director
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Do the new Pathfinder RPG rules "fix" higher level play? Does anyone remember the discussions here and elsewhere about the sweet spot of the 3.5 rules?
Depends what you thought made high level play broken.
High level play is complex; that's actually a draw, I suspect, of a lot of people who enjoy high level play. The PFRPG does do a lot of different things to try to not only make it less complex (by simplifying specific troublemaking spells like dispel magic) but also to make things more balanced (from making the various classes scale up more equally to redesigning monsters so that there's a better spread of power and so that they aren't so overwhelming in some ways and so fragile in others). Adjusting monster save DCs for special attacks, addressing save-or-die spells to be still useful but not so overpowered, streamlining things like grapple and other combat stunts, and re-balancing magic items and monster stats so that they're built to more closely follow what a high level character is expected to be able to hit or cope with are all examples of ways we tried to make high-level play more fun and easier without losing the draw it has to most players.
What I'm saying is that there wasn't a single patch to fix high-level play. There wasn't even a small handful of fixes. The whole design of the game kept this goal in mind from top to bottom.
Whether or not it succeeds, well, we'll have to wait and see. Honestly, I think that a big part of "high level being broken" in 3.5 was due in large part to there not being nearly as much support for high level play, and because most of the design-hours put into perfecting the game focused on low and mid level play. Hopefully PFRPG will be the best yet for high level play!
If high level play works better/simpler,
would that mean you might consider taking an AP all the way to 20th level?
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Creative Director
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If high level play works better/simpler,
would that mean you might consider taking an AP all the way to 20th level?
Six volumes is not enough to take an adventure from 1st to 20th. If we were going to do an AP that went to 20th, we'd either have to start one at higher than 1st level or run one for more than six months, basically... and for many reasons, neither of those two option is very appealing to me. Actually... I suppose we could do a 6 part AP that uses Pathfinder's fast XP track... I'll have to think on that one though.
It's much more likely that you'll see some high-level modules or perhaps some day even a high level stand-alone adventure from Paizo.
In any event, ease of play really hasn't been the main reason the Pathfinder APs generally go up to about 15th level and not beyond. There's a lot of wisdom in not clogging up Pathfinder with one AP for an entire year, like we did with Dungeon's APs, which again, would likely be required if we went from 1st to 20th.
There's a lot of wisdom in not clogging up Pathfinder with one AP for an entire year, like we did with Dungeon's APs, which again, would likely be required if we went from 1st to 20th.
Call me a wishful thinker, but I love longer APs. So does my entire group, of course we'd only be one guaranteed sale for such a thing...
Well if you ever have something on the back-burner, something a staff member writes in their spare time or whatever; would you ever consider printing a 1st-20th AP as a stand-alone?
Age of Worms might be the most memorable series of games I've ever played in, I want another one.
/greedy
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Creative Director
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Adventure paths are fantastically expensive. We can't afford to do one as a stand-alone unless the writer and artists do the work for free, basically, so that's not really an option. The monthly model is the secret to actually being able to do them, since they sort of help fund themselves as they go.
Actually... I suppose we could do a 6 part AP that uses Pathfinder's fast XP track... I'll have to think on that one though.I was wondering if the multi-track XP chart would be staying in. That's cool.
As far as I can tell (from the Beta), the Fast-track is what APs run on *now*. If that's switching to Medium then the APs will be shorter (in level only of course, probably longer in content). Unless Medium is the new Fast, and there is a faster new Fast track.
I'm sure that made little sense.
Personally, I would love a single level 16+ adventure that is connected to an existing AP. It does not need to be a continuation, but one tied to major location in an AP or connected to some of the NPCs would be neat.
Two examples could be an Adventure dealing with Lorthact set in Korvosa or an adventure dealing with the Runelord Sorshen (which could link to either Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne).
if the characters can't cast 9th level spells when the AP is done
Good point.
If an AP is set in an area that has already been used in some modules, starting an AP at a higher level is not as bad. It is not ideal, but it can be tied to NPCs from those modules, giving a GM some options.
Falcon's Hollow comes to mind in this case, with modules D0, D1, and E1 to help advance PCs to a higher level for an AP.
Contributor
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If an AP is set in an area that has already been used in some modules, starting an AP at a higher level is not as bad. It is not ideal, but it can be tied to NPCs from those modules, giving a GM some options.
Falcon's Hollow comes to mind in this case, with modules D0, D1, and E1 to help advance PCs to a higher level for an AP.
Whispering Tyrant Adventure Path, anyone? Start it at level 6 or so, in the Darkmoon Vale and have "Getting your PCs to 6th level" sidebar that mentions the D0, D1, D1.5, D4 series.
They wouldn't be essential, but that would be a neat set-up.
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If an AP is set in an area that has already been used in some modules, starting an AP at a higher level is not as bad. It is not ideal, but it can be tied to NPCs from those modules, giving a GM some options.
Falcon's Hollow comes to mind in this case, with modules D0, D1, and E1 to help advance PCs to a higher level for an AP.
Whispering Tyrant Adventure Path, anyone? Start it at level 6 or so, in the Darkmoon Vale and have "Getting your PCs to 6th level" sidebar that mentions the D0, D1, D1.5, D4 series.
They wouldn't be essential, but that would be a neat set-up.
I concur that starting an AP with characters at 4th - 5th level would be perfect and running them to 20th.
1) it allows those characters to culminate an "epic" (see lower case e) adventure with a capstone ability on their character that they may long to achieve - as well as those powerful 9th level spells.
2) there are TONS of low level mods available, that if a DM wants to start a campaign AP with characters at 1st level, they can easily tie stand alone mods or past DUNGEON mag adventures into the campaign to play those few a few weeks first before actually starting the AP. (as well as Necro Games and Goodman Games products - there's literally hundreds to draw from in those level ranges).
As someone else noted - Paizo can "plug" their own products by suggesting certain mods that would be ideal fits for particular APs when they begin (should DMs want to start characters at earlier levels).
The Rappan Athuk by Necromancer Games did this - it started PCs at like 5th level - intent to take them to 20th. It's not really an AP so much as just a giant meat-grinder dungeon - but it follows that advancement regime.
That all being said - my preference for style is the "sweet spot" and I actually prefer to start at 1st level - so the above was more of a suggestion of "how" to do it and why, but not so much a lobby for it. I like the APs as they are - and so long as Paizo writes occasional mods for 16+ levels - then I'll be quite happy - especially if those Pathfinder Mods can be somehow tied in to a end-game of an AP.
Robert
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I'm not sure starting at even 5th level would get you to 20th in 6 adventures. In the old Dungeon AP's there are nearly 4 adventures to get you from 15th to 20th. That only gives you 2 episodes to get to level 15. It's the nature of the game to take longer and do more stuff to get those top levels.
I think another problem faced with writing high level games when placing them in a fixed setting, is the impact on that world. If characters are doing world changing things, the company needs to keep track of this and reflect it in future writing. When they did Age of worms, they referred to it in the next Adventure path as a pretty major event.
I guess they could take it outside of Golarion to the other planes, like they did with Savage Tide, but I'm not sure that's what people are after.
I think the individual adventure idea has a better chance, maybe linked by a similar settings like the hollows last hope series. It may give them a chance to develop an area not yet seen without too uch impact on the rest of the gaming world. (There's a demon infected area in golarion isn't there?)
Cheers
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You could always start out an AP at like 3rd level or so and have a module release a month or two earlier that could be an optional prologue. Kind of how you've done with the Falcon's Hollow stuff and Last Baron. It'd be almost the same as having a 1-20 AP but without having to do all the back-matter required in an AP book for the earlier levels.
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Do the new Pathfinder RPG rules "fix" higher level play? Does anyone remember the discussions here and elsewhere about the sweet spot of the 3.5 rules?
I'll refer anyone interested in targeting the "sweet spot" of 3.5e to Ryan Stoughton's excellent "Epic Sixth" concept. Basically, he espouses stopping level advancement at 6th level. Thereafter, characters advance primarily by gaining more feats. I think it presents an excellent way to do a level cap the right way. It allows PCs a means to continue advancing mechanically while providing the DM/adventure author a finite level range to work with.
...to redesigning monsters so that there's a better spread of power and so that they aren't so overwhelming in some ways and so fragile in others). Adjusting monster save DCs for special attacks...
Uh oh! My incompatibility meter just went off. I'm getting started on running a Pathfinder RPG game in the Eberron setting. With the modifications to PC races in PFRPG, I have had to beef up the PC races presented in the ECS to match. (I gave Warforged +2 str, +2 con, -2 cha. I'm worried it will be a little much.) Will I have to retool all the monsters I use to match the PFRPG monsters? Will using PFRPG obsolete all published adventures created prior to the release in August, simply because they use flawed, pre-PFRPG monsters? PANIC!
If this problem does exist and isn't addressed in the core rules, a web enhancement would be really handy.
Uh oh! My incompatibility meter just went off. I'm getting started on running a Pathfinder RPG game in the Eberron setting. With the modifications to PC races in PFRPG, I have had to beef up the PC races presented in the ECS to match. (I gave Warforged +2 str, +2 con, -2 cha. I'm worried it will be a little much.) Will I have to retool all the monsters I use to match the PFRPG monsters? Will using PFRPG obsolete all published adventures created prior to the release in August, simply because they use flawed, pre-PFRPG monsters? PANIC!
If this problem does exist and isn't addressed in the core rules, a web enhancement would be really handy.
Bob,
I have been using the Beta rules for roughly 6 months, and DMing RoRLs AP (3.5). I have not done anything to any of the NPCs except in some cases make their HP a bit higher than the average that is usually presented, and I have yet to run into any problems. Honestly I don't think you "need" to change anything from 3.5 to PFRPG. If you have time, perhaps a couple things here and there, but not absolutely necessary.
Cheers!
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Creative Director
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Uh oh! My incompatibility meter just went off. I'm getting started on running a Pathfinder RPG game in the Eberron setting. With the modifications to PC races in PFRPG, I have had to beef up the PC races presented in the ECS to match. (I gave Warforged +2 str, +2 con, -2 cha. I'm worried it will be a little much.) Will I have to retool all the monsters I use to match the PFRPG monsters? Will using PFRPG obsolete all published adventures created prior to the release in August, simply because they use flawed, pre-PFRPG monsters? PANIC!
If this problem does exist and isn't addressed in the core rules, a web enhancement would be really handy.
Your incompatibility meter might have a short in it; you might want to have it looked at by a biomechanc. :-P
The redesign of monsters to give a better spread of power primarily affected the high level end of things, not the mid and low level (with the obvious exception of a few badly CRd monsters who needed work anyway).
If PFRPG makes all published adventures totally obsolete, we failed at our job. I don't think that happened, having seen the rules and having worked with them for months already.
If PFRPG makes all published adventures totally obsolete, we failed at our job. I don't think that happened, having seen the rules and having worked with them for months already.
This is going to come down to individual user tolerance.
I'm running Runelords more or less as-is in Pathfinder, and I haven't had any problems. That leads me to believe that you didn't overreach.
But there are always those who are going to count out every skill point, and for them it will be much easier to find fault with compatibility.
I recently took advantage of Lisa's Incredibly Insane Great Magazine Clearance Sale! to pick up some back issues of Dungeon and also decided to get the Dragon 30th anniversary issue. It had a "Wormfood" article by the esteemed Mr. Jacobs about the final installment of the Age of Worms Adventure Path entitled "Becoming Epic Heroes." It was fun to see how attitudes have changed. The article happily suggests a feat for divine spellcasters "especially if your key ability score is high enough (30+) to grant you a bonus 10th-level spell." It does not withhold the following advice: "Take a moment to look over your character's magic item body slots, if you see one that's empty, put something on!"
I could feel the eagerness for high level play as I read the article, and it actually sounded like lots of fun. I think the main appeal is that you finally get to use all the most cool things the game has to offer. This enthusiasm continues to be seen in the subsequent AP, where the 200 hit points of Demogorgon in 1st edition is highlighted to help explain the coolness of the game's most powerful enemy. There's a kind of innocence to this enthusiasm that would be great to recapture.
If anyone can do it, it's Paizo. I'm willing to believe that the issues surrounding high-level play are as problematic as James Jacobs suggests. I admit to some eagerness to see where Paizo is headed with this.
Most campaigns I've run have ended around level 16 anyway. Any much higher and the game seems to bog down with super powers and cupped double handfuls of dice.
Most campaigns I've run have ended around level 16 anyway. Any much higher and the game seems to bog down with super powers and cupped double handfuls of dice.
What's wrong with Shadowrun?
=P
Most campaigns I've run have ended around level 16 anyway. Any much higher and the game seems to bog down with super powers and cupped double handfuls of dice.What's wrong with Shadowrun?
=P
And I thought he was talking about Champions/HERO System... ;-P ("Move Through at 24", STR 40 pushed to 50, +2d6 from my club, that's 20d6...")
And I thought he was talking about Champions/HERO System... ;-P ("Move Through at 24", STR 40 pushed to 50, +2d6 from my club, that's 20d6...")Most campaigns I've run have ended around level 16 anyway. Any much higher and the game seems to bog down with super powers and cupped double handfuls of dice.What's wrong with Shadowrun?
=P
Got the book, never played.
Too much boring.
Most campaigns I've run have ended around level 16 anyway. Any much higher and the game seems to bog down with super powers and cupped double handfuls of dice.
Mine haven't even gotten that far. Still, there's a difference between saying high-level play isn't fun and saying you want it to be fun. I can see "handfuls of dice" bogging down the game, but "super powers" shouldn't necessarily have to. Really, they should be fun.
Got the book, never played.
Too much boring.
The game plays better than the book reads, particularly at the heroic levels. I have run and played in a number of Fantasy Hero games. It is fun, and you can do some really cool stuff. The key is setting a limit on power levels.
The game plays better than the book reads, particularly at the heroic levels. I have run and played in a number of Fantasy Hero games. It is fun, and you can do some really cool stuff. The key is setting a limit on power levels.Got the book, never played.
Too much boring.
I'm not generally considered weak in this regard, but trying to make even a single simple power made my head swim. This is a book intended for someone who is most definitely not me. I use it as a bookend, because it's huge.
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If high level play works better/simpler,
would that mean you might consider taking an AP all the way to 20th level?Six volumes is not enough to take an adventure from 1st to 20th. If we were going to do an AP that went to 20th, we'd either have to start one at higher than 1st level or run one for more than six months, basically... and for many reasons, neither of those two option is very appealing to me. Actually... I suppose we could do a 6 part AP that uses Pathfinder's fast XP track... I'll have to think on that one though.
It's much more likely that you'll see some high-level modules or perhaps some day even a high level stand-alone adventure from Paizo.
In any event, ease of play really hasn't been the main reason the Pathfinder APs generally go up to about 15th level and not beyond. There's a lot of wisdom in not clogging up Pathfinder with one AP for an entire year, like we did with Dungeon's APs, which again, would likely be required if we went from 1st to 20th.
Would it be possible to give a small section at the end of APs to include a larger "what now?" section. Or possibly leave some more open ended options for a DM to continue past the end of an adventure. I think a perfect example is the end of Second Darkness. It's a very climactic ending and it almost just seems wrong to continue the AP after it is over. But if there were loose ends that were left (and mentioned at the end of the AP) then it might give a DM a good structure to build his own continuation of the story past the end.
Of course I still love the idea of a 64-96 page Pathfinder Module that continues some of those loose ends that might be left (Even if the Module starts a few levels after the "end" as the Adventurers take a rest to "only" kill a dragon and loot his hoard). Something like:
2. Some Aboleth plot after Second Darkness
3. Another person gaining 2+ pieces of the armor set of Kazavon (Don't have books to reference right now... sorry if that's not the name... too many K+A+Z names in the APs!)
4. Going back to the city of brass after the proteans have left the Scroll of Kakishon to help save the city.
Since these things are "loose ends" and not specifically based on the adventure it seems like it would be a good continuation but at the same time accessible to people that have not run the entire AP.
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Creative Director
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Would it be possible to give a small section at the end of APs to include a larger "what now?" section. Or possibly leave some more open ended options for a DM to continue past the end of an adventure. I think a perfect example is the end of Second Darkness. It's a very climactic ending and it almost just seems wrong to continue the AP after it is over. But if there were loose ends that were left (and mentioned at the end of the AP) then it might give a DM a good structure to build his own continuation of the story past the end.
Absolutely. In fact, starting with Council of Thieves, we'll be regularly doing a pretty lengthy "continuing the campaign" type support article after the adventure ends. So far, we've always tried to squeeze this type of content in at the end of the adventure, but since we've been doing too much in Pathfinder and those last adventures tend to run long, this type of content generally got to be the first to be cut.
As for an adventure that deals with loose ends from an AP... I would not do those as part of the module line. It would be bigger than that. Much bigger.
mistype
As for an adventure that deals with loose ends from an AP... I would not do those as part of the module line. It would be bigger than that. Much bigger.Now, that sounds as if you may have something in mind...
Chronicles book perhaps?
Whatever it is, I'd buy it. Of course, I buy just about everything already.
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Creative Director
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As for an adventure that deals with loose ends from an AP... I would not do those as part of the module line. It would be bigger than that. Much bigger.Now, that sounds as if you may have something in mind...Chronicles book perhaps?
Whatever it is, I'd buy it. Of course, I buy just about everything already.
I do have something in mind, and it's not part of a current Pathfinder line, really. Until we see how the RPG and the like do in a few months, I'm not going to be putting much more thought into this mystery project either, but I WOULD love to do a high-level something some day...
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I do have something in mind, and it's not part of a current Pathfinder line, really. Until we see how the RPG and the like do in a few months, I'm not going to be putting much more thought into this mystery project either, but I WOULD love to do a high-level something some day...As for an adventure that deals with loose ends from an AP... I would not do those as part of the module line. It would be bigger than that. Much bigger.Now, that sounds as if you may have something in mind...Chronicles book perhaps?
Whatever it is, I'd buy it. Of course, I buy just about everything already.
*pulls out check book*
Ok, ok how much stuff do ya' need to sell so you can put more thought into it? ;)
Hi, I've never posted before. I'm getting a bit excited about the PFRPG (a friend and PC pointed me toward this site, and I'm eating it up.)
I just wanted to share that the PFRPG has convinced me to get a subscription starting with Council of Thieves, and I would eat up a high-level "follow-up" to the point of going back and getting my hands on every AP you've made, just to play them.
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I do have something in mind, and it's not part of a current Pathfinder line, really. Until we see how the RPG and the like do in a few months, I'm not going to be putting much more thought into this mystery project either, but I WOULD love to do a high-level something some day...As for an adventure that deals with loose ends from an AP... I would not do those as part of the module line. It would be bigger than that. Much bigger.Now, that sounds as if you may have something in mind...Chronicles book perhaps?
Whatever it is, I'd buy it. Of course, I buy just about everything already.
Awesome, at least we know it's in there somewhere.
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Hi, I've never posted before. I'm getting a bit excited about the PFRPG (a friend and PC pointed me toward this site, and I'm eating it up.)
I just wanted to share that the PFRPG has convinced me to get a subscription starting with Council of Thieves, and I would eat up a high-level "follow-up" to the point of going back and getting my hands on every AP you've made, just to play them.
Welcome to the boards! :)
Hi, I've never posted before. I'm getting a bit excited about the PFRPG (a friend and PC pointed me toward this site, and I'm eating it up.)
I just wanted to share that the PFRPG has convinced me to get a subscription starting with Council of Thieves, and I would eat up a high-level "follow-up" to the point of going back and getting my hands on every AP you've made, just to play them.
Welcome to the boards ! May Lilith come along soon to bestow nummy virtual cookies upon you. :)
And I concur, I can't wait to see high-level follow-ups to RotRL, CotCT, LoF and all the other AP's! ~grins~
Dear James,
To do my part, I'm going to order an additional 3 copies of the Pathfinder RPG book (1 so I can have 2 at my table, and the other 2 to send to friends). Please deposit the profits in the "high-level something" fund. Thank you.
As for an adventure that deals with loose ends from an AP... I would not do those as part of the module line. It would be bigger than that. Much bigger.
I like that the modules are stand-alone. I hope we'll see a few high level modules independent of the APs. A Pathfinder Chronicles "High Level Play Revisited" discussing levels 16-20 in PF RPG, starting with a bit of nostalgia (from the Dungeon APs if you're allowed to mention them) and continuing with articles with advice for GMs would be welcome. If a contributor who's good with rules can focus one of the articles on how to improve the flow of high level play, I know I'd be interested.
The mystery project sounds cool. Count me in with those hoping it will happen!
Mmmmm, high level content, thankfully I can wait as I'm hoping to move out of state in a year (year and a half tops hopefully) and given the rate my group games and the coming absence of a couple players this might not permit high level play for some time.
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As for an adventure that deals with loose ends from an AP... I would not do those as part of the module line. It would be bigger than that. Much bigger.Now, that sounds as if you may have something in mind...
I am about to get started running the Legacy of Fire AP and instead of progressing past the end of the AP, I am planning on using some content from J1: Entombed with the Pharoh's and J4: The pact stone Pyramid to progress them (3)levels between part 3 and 4.
I wont get into all the work I will have to do to adjust the CR's in the two prison modules of the Legacy AP, but my players want lvl 18 in part 6 and I know it will be easier to work in alot of character path storylines in the middle of this to really deepen the character's personalities and build up the players with anticipation and anxiety for the last 3 modules.
This is my plan for getting my pc's to be able to cast 9th level spells and feel the achievement of progressing to the elite levels of a D&D character.
As a side note, I am currently playing in the Second Darkness AP and weaved a character background story that will be a great final adventure after we have saved the cheerleader... I mean, the world.
I admit, since we just finished part 4 of this AP, that I am salivating over what that last adventure will be like when we finally come to it.
Thanks, CC
Hi, I've never posted before. I'm getting a bit excited about the PFRPG (a friend and PC pointed me toward this site, and I'm eating it up.)
I just wanted to share that the PFRPG has convinced me to get a subscription starting with Council of Thieves, and I would eat up a high-level "follow-up" to the point of going back and getting my hands on every AP you've made, just to play them.
Welcome Anthony...
Be careful. Paizo will take all your money.
And make you like it.