What sorts of rewards do you want to see put into place for Season 1 of Pathfinder Society? We get to re-write the rules a bit since the Society is shifting to PRPG and that gives me an opportunity to fix all of the issues folks on these boards have found in the v1.2 rules set.
Should I give full credit for scenarios run? Should I give partial credit? If I give partial credit, what form should that take? Keep in mind that we're not likely to change the XP system any time soon and the level cap will likely not be lifted even with the new rules. Keeping all that in mind and my questions above, what do *YOU* as a Pathfinder Society GM want to see as a rewards system for being a GM?
Looking forward to hearing your ideas.
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Ahhh, yes. the squeaky wheels get the grease!
I'm not in favor of full access. I still want to have something to complain about and feel like I'm suffering for a cause. Yes, I have issues.
I'm in favor of a "GM's Chronicle" which all the players have to sign and add their PFS# to the certificate. It would grant 1XP and a set amount of gold based on the Tier of the scenario 'eaten' by the GM. A scenario covering Tiers 1-5 would grant 500GP. A scenario covering 1-7 would grant 1,000GP, and so on. The amounts aren't as important as the scaling up based on the Tier.
I'd say that's all there should be. No Prestige Award Point, no adventure access to equipment. Eating a scenario should not mean a free ride, especially if the scenario has a reputation for being difficult.
Those are my thoughts!
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Cash and prizes! Oh wait, that's not gonna happen. Ok, lemme think a bit...
The amounts aren't as important as the scaling up based on the Tier.
If I start eating these high level mods coming up by your standard I'd be a filthy rich lil guy!
Personally I'm for GM getting a copy of the chronicle eaten. Failing that straight XP/PA and expanded access to represent access not gained from chronicles.
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I think just 1 xp for GM's. No faction points and no gold . . . maybe 1/2 gold for adventures DM'd would be great. On the other hand, if you've got another DM (which you must if you're worried about playing ever) you're never going to be so far ahead the mod is not enjoyable. I have run tier 4-5 games with a single level 1 player in the party and he's been playing conservatively but it hasn't ruined his fun. So, even if the other players are ahead of you by as much as 5 levels, I haven't seen any reason to think that a lower level character can't have fun with higher level players. But if you're GMing so much that your character is 7 levels behind the others, that might get to be a problem, but the cap is low enough that even if you're switching off with another DM every other game, you should still be able to have a good time with your players when you do get to play.
But, the question was "what do I WANT to see" so my answer to that would be "1xp no faction and half gold." I think that's a reasonable reward for someone who chose to run rather than play a module. You'll be able to keep up with friends and even if you DM much more than you play, eating a mod won't mean you get nothin'.
That's my two cents.
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people on these boards have seen v1.2?... where is this elusive v1.2 rules?We get to re-write the rules a bit since the Society is shifting to PRPG and that gives me an opportunity to fix all of the issues folks on these boards have found in the v1.2 rules set.
I think that they were beta tested, but not released
I think getting to sit around a group of friends and run a scenario for them should be rewarding enough by itself.
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I think getting to sit around a group of friends and run a scenario for them should be rewarding enough by itself.
It is indeed a reward in itself. This however causes problems if, say, the DM wants to play sometimes as well but is unable to due to lagging behind his regular gaming group in character level. Granted, this only happens if you always game with same group of people and DM for that group 90% of the time.
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Just about everyone I play with enjoys taking a turn at running an adventure, so we have been able to have an excellent rotation allowing for us to keep pace in leveling. Through the first 18 adventures most of us have eaten 2 and missed one or two along the way.
I have no interest in getting xp, gold or item access for adventures my character has not played. It just seems like an odd concept to get a record sheet for an adventure a character of mine did not go through. Doesn't that mean you could end up with a character that has never actually played be level capped?
I would prefer some sort of reward that translats to a discount on Pathfinder materials. That would give more incentive to report your tables asap and could sway members to buy more Pathfinder stuff.
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It caused some significant unease before the campaign began, but the ability of players to play adventures they have already GMd or played in LFR (so long as the same character doesn't play the same adventure more than once) has, I think, been a major success.
It means that people who GM have a full opportunity to actually have the fun of playing the adventure, and get the rewards they deserve for their character(s) rather than some arbitrarily determined reward.
PFS needn't be as liberal as LFR, of course: you could make the rule that each player may play each scenario only once; whether a player has GMd the adventure being irrelevant.
This isn't a perfect solution - the concept of players always being entirely unaware of the content of an adventure is a good one - but I think that there is a real need for there to be some way for GMs to keep up with people who only play, as otherwise it is possible for those who are contributing most to PFS in their area to become less and less able to actually play!
Regarding other suggestions above; unless PFRPG radically changes the importance of equipment to character effectiveness, 'rewarding' a GM with an experience point but no gold is actually going to be a disadvantage to the character, not an advantage! Even limiting access/prestige points could cause these problems.
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What sorts of rewards do you want to see put into place for Season 1 of Pathfinder Society?
GM's should:
1) Gain XP as if they had played the scenario,2) gain prestige benefits as if they had played the scenario,
3) gain gold as if they had played the scenario,
4) NOT gain any faction rewards, and
5) be able to play in any scenario they have not yet GM'd.
When a GM runs the scenario, they should fill out a Chronicle sheet like the players do, with the exception that they write "GM" in the "Character Name" block at the top. Also, Under "For GM Only" at the bottom, a player should have to certify that the GM ran the scenario (I'm split on whether this should be a single player cert, more than one player cert, or if all players from the scenario should cert). Having participated in a scenario as a player should also invalidate any GM rewards they might have otherwise received.
Also (maybe the accounted for already), the GM should only gain credit for one instantiation of any given scenario they run (or play in beforehand).
You might also consider a special reward for GMs that run all the scenarios within a given season without playing any of the scenarios for that season. For example, let's say that Joshua Frost buys each scenario as soon as it comes out and runs it in a home game for his friends. He doesn't play any of the scenarios (since he is running them first). I think Josh deserves a little something for that; afterall, he's likely eating the scenario cost, not participating as a player, and promoting PRPG and PFS.
For a special reward, I would suggest a forum tag. So, if Josh runs all the scenarios in season 1, maybe he would get a "PFS Season 1 Venture-Captain" tag next to his forum name. Tags are cheap and they make people feel way cool.
-Skeld
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When a GM runs the scenario, they should fill out a Chronicle sheet like the players do, with the exception that they write "GM" in the "Character Name" block at the top. Also, Under "For GM Only" at the bottom, a player should have to certify that the GM ran the scenario (I'm split on whether this should be a single player cert, more than one player cert, or if all players from the scenario should cert). Having participated in a scenario as a player should also invalidate any GM rewards they might have otherwise received.Also (maybe the accounted for already), the GM should only gain credit for one instantiation of any given scenario they run (or play in beforehand)
The last point makes sense, so somebody who runs the same scenario 5 times doesn't gain 5 XP. First one, yes, but after that, you just bein' a good DM.
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I have GMed most of the currently released scenarios, some of them more than once (Silent Tide x5) = 25 sessions in total.
In contrast, I have played as a character only twice.
While I appreciate that XP, gold, prestige etc may benefit a home group wanting to maintain comparable level with each other, clearly these incentives aren't going to be of much use to me.
If there is going to be any GM reward scheme, there needs to be some acknowledgement of those who solely GM for their friends, at Game Days and Conventions, without any intention of ever playing.
WotC used to have a Player/GM rewards scheme where each game played earned you a point(s). When you earn enough points, you cash them in for benefits. Players received Campaign Cards which unlocked special player character options. GMs received promotional miniatures (repaints) which were immediately useful for running future games.
As has been mentioned previoulsy, Pathfinder Society is a smaller outfit than WotC, and may not be able to resource mail-outs of physical rewards to GMs. While keeping this in mind, here are a few (wishlist) suggestions:
- 20 points may be cashed in for a promotional code to order a discounted flip-mat (of the GM's choice);
- 20 points may be cashed in for access to a previously "exclusive" scenario;
Another idea, one aimed at encouraging more players to cross the line and support the Society by GMing:
- 6 points may be cashed in to unlock some player option, eg Gnoll as a player race
I think we can come up with more innovative ways of rewarding GMs for their efforts than simply XP and gold.
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I have GMed most of the currently released scenarios, some of them more than once (Silent Tide x5) = 25 sessions in total.
In contrast, I have played as a character only twice.
While I appreciate that XP, gold, prestige etc may benefit a home group wanting to maintain comparable level with each other, clearly these incentives aren't going to be of much use to me.
Hey Stephen, big thank you for running us at Conquest! Awesome job, you had fully prepared battle maps, you were organised and willing to let us try out of the box ideas. You made the games fun!
That said, basically the absolute MINIMUM you need is the ability for the DM to play the scenario after having run it or get everything on the cert.
You also have to remember that the DM is usually the one who has bought the module in the first place. Pathfinder is not nearly as big as LG/LFR and it is only going to expand if the are DMs for it, so you are really going to want to make it good for them as you can.
Any extras are good and rewards like product or special options are great. PDF products, like the paper minis for the latest adventure path would be easy to organise and give out (no postage).
That's my thoughts,
Matt
Team Full Power Attack!
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Hi Matt :-)
Hey Stephen, big thank you for running us at Conquest! Awesome job, you had fully prepared battle maps, you were organised and willing to let us try out of the box ideas. You made the games fun!
You see, it's comments like this that are the true reward for a GMs efforts :-)
That said, basically the absolute MINIMUM you need is the ability for the DM to play the scenario after having run it or get everything on the cert.
Personally, I couldn't imagine playing a scenario I have already run. I already know which precautions to take, where the traps are laid, that an ambush lies just around the next corner, etc. Pathfinder is all about exploration and discovery. If a GM plays a scenario he's already run, there's always the risk that he might inadvertently (or otherwise) spoil some of the discovery the other players are there to enjoy. I'd strongly recommend against this.
I didn't mean to imply that because XP and gold aren't an incentive for me, that they shouldn't be GM rewards. On the contrary, I agree GMs should receive all benefits of scenarios they've run, as if they've played it. Eg XP, gold, prestige and item access. Awarding XP without gold, prestige or item access only leads to falling behind the power curve for your character level as discussed in another thread. GMs should fill out the chronicle sheet of the scenario they have just run, and apply it to one character of their choice.
Hmmm ... I've GMed 25 scenarios. So my character advances to 9th level, having actually played only two scenarios? Wow!
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Hmmm ... I've GMed 25 scenarios. So my character advances to 9th level, having actually played only two scenarios? Wow!
I am very much against letting GMs play modules they have run, it sort of defeats the purpose of the game to me.
Its a fine line. I think promotional Paizo stuff would be a great reward for DMs. I don't think cert allocation is a good idea, because then you open the pandora's box of optimising access and favours based on 'being a DM'.
Essentially, I think there needs to be something to encourage folk to DM, but not something that makes it *better* to put yourself down as having run a module.
It is a fine line, and difficult to balance. It is no surprise that the reason there were so few DM rewards in LG is because the DMs weren't the people who NEEDED to be encouraged to play the game, those volunteer suckers were going to play/DM irrespective.
Battlemats/Free mods sounds like the best route to me. Stuff that is good *for the DM* rather than anything advantageous in game.
Of course opinions will vary wildly on the issue.
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I like the idea of GMs getting one XP and one Prestige Point per scenario that they eat. They should also get the gold as if they had completed the scenario. Beyond this, I don't feel the GM's need any more incentive. I usually eat scenarios. The primary reason I would like the XPs and gold is so I can stay up with the rest of my group in the off chance that one of them would like to start running scenarios someday.
GMs playing in scenarios that they have already run is silly. It would be like the tabletop version of going off into the woods to kill wild boars. Likewise, players playing in a scenario they have already been through with different characters is just as silly.
I love running Pathfinder Society games, and the only drawback I have been able to see is that my character falls behind while everyone else advances. If this problem were to be rectified, I would be satisfied.
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Hmmm ... I've GMed 25 scenarios. So my character advances to 9th level, having actually played only two scenarios? Wow!I think the idea was to reward "eating" a scenario, not running a scenario that you've already played or DM'd once.
So you'd only get the character benefits for running each scenario once, not multiple times, if say, you'd run Silent Tide five times. That's a good catch!
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In case the DM would 'eat' a scenario, thus never be able to play it himself/herself, he/she should at least get the XP out of it, if nothing else. You have to remember this DM can give this 1 XP to any of his characters, so no character would sky rocket to level 11 instantly.
To some groups this rule might be unnecessary, but it wouldn't disrupt anything.
I'm in for: the XP, gold depending on character's level (I know there's some table in the DMG, but I can't find it. Wealth gained by level divided by 3), and maybe the equipment access... depending on the character's level. E.g. the DM's 1st level character couldn't get Tier 3-4's equipment access even if the group plays it on that tier.
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Basically a DM shouldn't suffer a penalty for 'eating' a mod.
And yes, if that means that some silly people decide to optimise access etc, by applying the 'eaten' certs to specific characters, well they are only cheating themselves. At the very least they have DMed the mod for others at least once.
Almost all DMs are the hardworking folk who spend time trying to make a fun game for others. Some may not want the XP, gold, but others may.
Some form of positive reward is also important.
A rewards is important, even if it is only a small thing, because it acknowledges effort and that the DM is giving back to the roleplaying community. Ask yourself this question: Of the group of players you game with, how many are willing to DM, and of those how many are willing to put in the effort to become a good DM?
Matt
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So you'd only get the character benefits for running each scenario once, not multiple times, if say, you'd run Silent Tide five times. That's a good catch!Hmmm ... I've GMed 25 scenarios. So my character advances to 9th level, having actually played only two scenarios? Wow!I think the idea was to reward "eating" a scenario, not running a scenario that you've already played or DM'd once.
And in addition this wouldn't include situations where you played it first, then DM'd the same scenario. Only if you render yourself unable to play the scenario by running it yourself.
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And in addition this wouldn't include situations where you played it first, then DM'd the same scenario. Only if you render yourself unable to play the scenario by running it yourself.
I think we can all agree that XP, gold, prestige and item access are fair compensation for "eating" a scenario you can never run your character through. I'm sure Josh has noted this, and any amount of debating isn't going to add much more insight to that discussion.
What I am more interested to hear are ideas for GM rewards for the many occasions when a GM isn't "eating" a scenario, either because he has already played or GMed it, or is a "career" GM with no interest in ever running his own Society character.
I've made a few suggestions in a previous post - so what ideas do other GMs have?
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What I am more interested to hear are ideas for GM rewards for the many occasions when a GM isn't "eating" a scenario, either because he has already played or GMed it, or is a "career" GM with no interest in ever running his own Society character.
I've made a few suggestions in a previous post - so what ideas do other GMs have?
Rewards for running a game and a reward for eating a scenario are definitely two different things. In my opinion the former could award either or both of a) running a game is reward in itself, but b) some kind of added benefit not related to actual in-game rewards. Something along the lines of free (promo- or other kinds of) stuff, discounts on Paizo products or some such.
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Something along the lines of free (promo- or other kinds of) stuff, discounts on Paizo products or some such.
I vaguely remember Josh or someone saying that PFS doesn't have budget to give out free stuff and that PFS doesn't have budget because it doesn't have as large a player base as LG. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
-Skeld
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Something along the lines of free (promo- or other kinds of) stuff, discounts on Paizo products or some such.I vaguely remember Josh or someone saying that PFS doesn't have budget to give out free stuff and that PFS doesn't have budget because it doesn't have as large a player base as LG. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
-Skeld
What about free PFS scenarios? - say if you eat 5 (or 6 or 8, or whatever), you get the next one free. Since it's a pdf, it shouldn't have a cost to Paizo other than the lost revenue on a few of the downloads.
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I am not in favor of being able to play a game that you have previously DM'd. I believe this is appropriate for a board game (like LFR), but not for a roleplaying game.
Put me down as preferring a DM reward of 1 xp and half maximum gp for the tier appropriate to the DM's character this will be assigned to (not per the tier run for the players). I have not found faction points to be particularly useful so far (other than for my character to brag about his wayfinder as a status symbol), so I can take or leave those for DMs.
I have not found faction points to be particularly useful so far (other than for my character to brag about his wayfinder as a status symbol), so I can take or leave those for DMs.
Note that Josh has said that next season all magic item access will be based on faction prestige points.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I had another thought for DM rewards. What if DM's got some sort of "DM prestige points" that would count not only as regular ones, but also allowed access to a few special items that only DMs could earn. This could compensate for not giving them access to the treasure lists from the scenarios they couldn't play.
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Note that Josh has said that next season all magic item access will be based on faction prestige points.I have not found faction points to be particularly useful so far (other than for my character to brag about his wayfinder as a status symbol), so I can take or leave those for DMs.
Then I am going to start caring a whole lot more. :)
And I therefore now think a DM should get 1 Faction Point per adventure "eaten."
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What about free PFS scenarios? - say if you eat 5 (or 6 or 8, or whatever), you get the next one free. Since it's a pdf, it shouldn't have a cost to Paizo other than the lost revenue on a few of the downloads.
My idea was the same as Joel. You could even go further, and make some "exclusive" scenarios available only to GM's who run sessions. Say, 1 or 2 a season, that you need to run 10 or 15 sessions to get.
The cost to Paizo would be paying a designer for those 1 or 2 extra scenarios a year, without any pdf income, but it would make the collection obsessed among us run scenarios like crazy to get the freebies.
And/or, you could release the exclusives for general purchase in a subsequent season.
Leave it to one of the Shackleton Boys to put the icing on my GM idea cake! Thanks Scribbling Rambler.
Based on everything you guys and gals have said, here's where I'm currently leaning:
Starting with Season 1 (and *not* retroactively) any GM "eating" a scenario gets partial credit for that scenario one time (IE, if you run Scenario #40 three times, you get credit for it as a PC *once*). Partial credit means the GM gets the following:
+1 XP for the scenario
50% of the max gold for the tier appropriate to the GM's PC (IE, a level 1 GM PC gets 50% of the Tier 1-2 gold)
Full credit for PA (Prestige Award)
But does not get:
Any "special" bonuses bestowed by a chronicle sheet
In addition, I'm considering creating two six month periods in a season that run August through January and February through July. If you, as a GM, are listed as the GM on 10 sessions in a given six-month period, you will receive a free "secret" scenario not sold elsewhere or otherwise given away. This gives you a rare ability to run these "secret" scenarios for your home group or at local conventions and should add some out-of-game prestige to the idea of being a career or part-time Pathfinder Society GM.
Is this a plan the majority of you could live with?
Looking forward to your feedback.
Said some stuff he liked.Said some stuff I liked.
Thanks!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'd prefer full GP for tier. I'm still giving up all access and 'special' bits.
Well, yes, but you're also giving up the real risk of getting your character killed in a module, or actually losing gold when the party needs to raise two members.
The concern I have with half GP is that a DM might run two high-tier adventures and then introduce her 1st-Level PC with far more resources than the other 1st-Level characters.
One question: should being willing to run a table at a convention should count, if the fellow doesn't get to play. For example, if only to or three people have shown up at my table, and we wait a half-hour before giving up hope for a fourth player and a legal table, should I get any "thank you" for having "spoiled" the adventure and being willing and ready to DM? If not, should I try to play the adventure? (I think that it's the reading and prepping of a scenario that ruins it for later play, rather than the actual rolling dice and signing log sheets.)
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I'd prefer full GP for tier. I'm still giving up all access and 'special' bits.
Granted I'll end up with lvl 12 PCs that never saw a mod, but still...
You'll end up with lvl 12 PCs with half gold.
Hmm, maybe not so bad, because a fair amount of the gold you earn is expended during a scenario in the form of healing potions and other consumables, which your GM character wouldn't have expended, because he didn't actually play.
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One question: should being willing to run a table at a convention should count, if the fellow doesn't get to play. For example, if only to or three people have shown up at my table, and we wait a half-hour before giving up hope for a fourth player and a legal table, should I get any "thank you" for having "spoiled" the adventure and being willing and ready to DM? If not, should I try to play the adventure? (I think that it's the reading and prepping of a scenario that ruins it for later play, rather than the actual rolling dice and signing log sheets.)
In the situation you described, you'd likely run that adventure in another session, or another occasion, even maybe for your home group, if not at a convention, as you've already gone through the effort of reading and prepping (and thus "spoiling") the scenario. So you'd gain the benefits at the later time, when you actually run it. Otherwise, everyone would claim eating scenarios they haven't actually run.
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Leave it to one of the Shackleton Boys to put the icing on my GM idea cake! Thanks Scribbling Rambler.
In addition, I'm considering creating two six month periods in a season that run August through January and February through July. If you, as a GM, are listed as the GM on 10 sessions in a given six-month period, you will receive a free "secret" scenario not sold elsewhere or otherwise given away. This gives you a rare ability to run these "secret" scenarios for your home group or at local conventions and should add some out-of-game prestige to the idea of being a career or part-time Pathfinder Society GM.
Is this a plan the majority of you could live with?
Looking forward to your feedback.
- 20 points may be cashed in for access to a previously "exclusive" scenario;
But, yeah, a good outcome!
Some other ideas I'd been tossing around ... "secret" scenarios encourage "career" GMs to run more sessions, though I still think there's merit to encouraging more players to step up and GM some scenarios, thus increasing the pool of Pathfinder GMs.
- 6 points may be cashed in to unlock some player option, eg Gnoll as a player race;
I'm well familiar with Paizo's aversion to non-core races, the benefit doesn't have to suddenly swamp Absalom with Gnoll or half-Drow or other wierd PC races, and it shouldn't be something that enables GMs to "power up" their characters. However, some other character option, maybe something that only remains organised play legal for one Season to keep things in check, might be appropriate.
A good example might be player access to a new Faction, for the current Season only. Or access to a new PC class or other feature, either as a preview of something from an upcoming product, or as a method of playtesting it prior to print publication.
You could use the same delivery method as the "secret" scenario - a PDF document download describing the new feature; or you might have to click a button to apply the benefit once to one of your current characters - would require some programming resource, but could then be used for similar benefits in future Seasons.
Just a few ideas.
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I agree with most of WHat Josh has recommended EXCEPT:
50% gold will mean that the PC will be incredibly behind.
Assuming you play have the mods, and DM half, your 12th level PC will have 75% the gold of everyone else.
DMing shouldn't give you a player advantage, but that is a pretty big player DISadvantage.
Gold is critical in the D&D world, and at present there isn't enough in modules as it is. Frankly there should be overcap to cover consumables. (See other thread)
Give someone less static gold and it means that they lack important items, like relevant stat boosters, items to give them APL appropriate Armour class etc. Basically your PC would need to be babied by others, and that kind of defeats the point of keeping a PC that can play COMPETENTLY with the rest of the group.
I think full gold for tier is better, but no access or favours. (Still get 1 xp and one Prestige).
The gold issue may not seem so big at low levels, but trust me from high level experience in LG - it becomes critical. People retired their PCs rather than play with no or significantly less gold.
DarkWhite: I am really averse to swamping a new world with non core races. Give the game world some time to develop verisimilitude before we start messing with it!
- Metz who is very happy with Pathfinder's stance on Drow thus far...
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I'd be much happier if that were the stance concerning all elves.
My stance has nothing to do with whether or not I like Drow as a race, it is more that I am glad they are making decisions on what fits as a PC race in their world, contrasted with 4e where everything is allowed, and the average adventuring party now consists of a Gnoll, two warforged, a shifter and a Dragonborn when exploring the forgotten realms...
I like that the races that make up the factions/world dynamic actually feature in parties/modules :)
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Well it'd only be stupid to give your free GM xp to a characters whose class requires expensive equipment. Preferably a druid, monk, or a sorcerer. Those don't need much money.
Sounds good though. I'm wondering what kind of scenarios these "secrets" would be. Personally I'd hope them to be drastically different from the norm, i.e. not following the basic 4-hour-slot line. It'd give much more room to delicate intrigue and/or other elements not yet found from PFS.
I know how much Josh dislikes when people compare Living Greyhawk and Pathfinder Society, but I initially started to think about Core Specials when he mentioned "secret scenarios". This, in fact, is a good thing. Core specials used to hold a grande plot. In PFS I could imagine something like "Travel to the edge of the Eye of Abendego", "Journey to the Silver Mount of Numeria", or "Expedition to the Worldwound". Something epic would be nice. It wouldn't have to effect anything canonically, but the locations would be very very nice.