Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm interested to hear opinions about the Pathfinder Chronicles Map Folios. So far we've got one released or slated for every announced Adventure Path, and another one filled exclusively with city map posters on the way.
Do you like this sort of thing? Would the world be torn asunder if they were not a regular feature?
I need to make some decisions about 2010, and I don't really have a sense of whether these are "working" or not.
Please help me determine this.
Thanks,
Erik
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While it is always cool to have maps, I normally use to copy the ,maps out of the pdf file, even if I have the map folio.
I erase the secret doors and such stuff, and print them with PosteRazor to battle-maps. The resolution is not that good when printed bigger, but it works.
If you have to cut down anything at all, the map-folios would be my first choice, as the other stuff is sooo cool to have.
Maybe you can cancel the whole map folios and give us a better resolution in the pdfs, or put all maps into the back of a pdf file...
I'm interested to hear opinions about the Pathfinder Chronicles Map Folios. So far we've got one released or slated for every announced Adventure Path, and another one filled exclusively with city map posters on the way.
Do you like this sort of thing? Would the world be torn asunder if they were not a regular feature?
I need to make some decisions about 2010, and I don't really have a sense of whether these are "working" or not.
Please help me determine this.
Thanks,
Erik
I'm afraid I really don't like them. I can see how they might be useful to some DMs but I'd shed no tears if they went the way of the Norwegian Blue.
My opinion, paraphrased from Dragnmoon:
- They are useless for those running the current APs.
- They are flimsy and easy to tear.
And from Dryder:
"Maybe you can cancel the whole map folios and give us a better resolution in the pdfs, or put all maps into the back of a pdf file..."The Map Packs (and the card decks) were my main reasons for quitting the Chronicles(?) subscription. Well, that and the fact that I'm playing 4e these days.
I'd much prefer to have label-free maps included in the original adventure PDF's instead.
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Do you like this sort of thing? Would the world be torn asunder if they were not a regular feature?
I don't find it useful at all. I think I would get more out of this product if it weren't simply a regurgitation of what already appears in the APs.
Most of the maps in the print version are useless at the table. They are on "normal" sized sheets of paper - usually 2 maps per sheet IIRC. This makes them useless for showing to players. The loose sheets are harder to control (obviously, they're loose!). And the fact that the maps appear in the folio exactly as they appear in the AP (tags and secret rooms and all), they're further useless to show to players.
The PDF version suffers from being the same maps that appear in the AP, so the PDF version is really redundant.
I hate to say it, but I really dislike this product. When I got the SD folio in the mail, I didn't even bother to take the shrink wrap off; there wasn't a point to looking through it and at least the shrink wrap contains the loose sheets so that one doesn't escape while I'm not looking.
Every time a map folio shows up in my preorder, I give it the evil eye. I know I'm paying for it as part of my sub, but I also know I'll get effectively no utility out of it. I think to myself, "I could use that money to buy a flip-mat instead."
I feel bad about talking the folios down. I realize when you guys conceived of his product, there were numerous folks on the boards clamoring for "maps" from the AP. So, really, you guys were just trying to fill a niche that customers wanted you to fill. Unfortunately, I feel the folios fail to fill any niche.
I think the map folios, as products, need some reinventing to be useful. Poster maps are always good and (to me) are the only useful part of the folio. The other maps in the folio would be better off if they were printed 1/page and were player friendly (no tags, no secrets, etc). They really just need to offer up something different so I don't feel like I'm paying for the same thing twice. Or you could remove them from the subs, although I suspect that with out the sub, this product wouldn't sell enough to justify itself.
Sorry for being so negative.
-Skeld
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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With the PDF of the APs, I have the maps ready to print as needed, so I don't see any value in the Map Folios. To be honest, I probably wouldn't buy them even with just the print version of the APs, since I could always make photocopies if needed.
The only map product I'd likely buy would be a huge poster map of Golarion, with additional maps that were zoomed in with more detail on different regions. I imagine that this product is many years off, since the details for lots of the campaign setting haven't been developed yet.
Ideally, a product like this could include a map as large and as detailed as the Forgotten Realms campaign setting map that was sold separately and folded up like a road map for your car glove compartment.
Hmm, well ... let me put it this way; I print the PDF versions like a madman ... the print versions, are currently still in shrink wrap on my shelf.
I like them in theory, but I wouldn't be bothered if the shelf space was dedicated to something else.
I think the map folios, as products, need some reinventing to be useful. Poster maps are always good and (to me) are the only useful part of the folio. The other maps in the folio would be better off if they were printed 1/page and were player friendly (no tags, no secrets, etc). They really just need to offer up something different so I don't feel like I'm paying for the same thing twice. Or you could remove them from the subs, although I suspect that with out the sub, this product wouldn't sell enough to justify itself.
I'm afraid these posts pretty much sum up my thoughts as well.
I too have no interest in the Map Folios that reproduce old maps already included in the Adventure Path volumes. I actually intend to suspend my Chronicles subscription to skip the Legacy of Fire map folio (I hope this is possible?).
That being said, I'm interested in the City Map Folio though: unless I'm mistaken, this specific folio will present new maps that did not appear anywhere else (is that correct?).
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Contributor
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I tried to post this earlier, but the site was acting up. It echoes some of the other comments, so I'll just put it in a spoiler:
- There doesn't seem to be much consistency in the files (both the Map Folio & AP PDFs) when it comes to which maps have the labeling on different layers. I find that I'm spending a lot of time "painting" over numbers to make the maps more "player friendly"
- Similarly, it would be good to have versions with certain features like secret doors, etc. hidden.
- I'm wondering if an "image folio" idea would be popular...keep the maps in, but also add in images of key personalities or items to use as player handouts.
My main question is, what is the intended purpose of the Map Folios? If they're intended to be an aide at the table, then they need to be offered earlier in the AP release schedule (very difficult, I know) and provide something we can't get from the AP.
Of course, this opinion is being voiced by a subscriber, who gets PDF copies of all the pubs, so it may be that non-subscribers find the Map Folio useful as it is. On the other hand, I think that larger scale maps of key locations or similar product packets would be more valuable.
Dalvyn, as far as subscriptions go, suspensions are only allowed for short-term situations and subscribers are still required to purchase the items in suspension when they resume the subscription. The only way to avoid getting an item is to actually cancel your subscription.
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I too have no interest in the Map Folios that reproduce old maps already included in the Adventure Path volumes. I actually intend to suspend my Chronicles subscription to skip the Legacy of Fire map folio (I hope this is possible?).
That being said, I'm interested in the City Map Folio though: unless I'm mistaken, this specific folio will present new maps that did not appear anywhere else (is that correct?).
Pretty much what he said.
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Hey Erik,
I'm glad some folks get use from them. I, however, don't sense much of a draw for these. I think, however, many folks would get TONS of mileage if the resources you use to put these together were reallocated to the printing of battlemaps at 1" scale (and providing .pdfs at higher resolutions (as already mentioned)). That is, I already get Pathfinder and .pdfs (love them btw), however, my sense is the community might "rave" gladly about not needing to use Posterazor/Photoshop/and-ink to produce home-use game battle maps.
I should add that this might seem overlap to the Gamemastery flip-maps and other map packs, but not really... Just imagine how awesome it would be as a customer to buy or otherwise collect the kind of 1" maps you used to deliver with quality Dungeon and Dragon magazines! I have every one you made during the wondrous PAIZO years of those magazines - and still use them to this day.
In the "Dungeon Room" downstairs, I have a tall stack of seven Gamemastery flip-mats that I use, but also LOVE the feel of paper maps, like the village square, the Age of Worms maps like Blackwall keep or the wizard's chamber, etc.
As a gamemaster, the downside of printing and cutting and taping together my own battle maps is time. I otherwise will continue to do so by enlarging the images from .pdfs that I buy from PAIZO. How much would it take to include 1 free battle map with every Pathfinder issue, provided a subscription is purchased? Or for game stores - it would be marvelous to provide a series of folded paper battlemaps at a reasonable price INSTEAD of reprinting the 8 1/2 x 11 size maps already included in the modules.
Well, that's my input for now... good luck planning for 2010!!! Pathfinder——Space Odyssey!
*theme music suddenly plays!*
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I had to think long and hard about the Map Folio for Second Darkness. I bought it after asking questions on the boards to see if they were battlemats or not (or even one or two). The answer was no, but I thought it would be a great product to show players when they wanted to see a map. When I opened the Map Folio, despite the beautiful map of the drow city, I was a little disappointed in the numbers and secret doors on the maps.
I would fully support the Map Folio if it didn't have the spoilers and maybe came out before, or during the AP it was made for. I know that is difficult and probably unlikely to happen.
While still a good product and it has its uses, I feel I could have bought a battlemat or maybe another product instead.
Sorry all you guys at Paizo for being a bit critical, but I only want to help you make your customer base happy.
EDIT: This product is the only thing holding me back when I thought about getting a Chronicles Subscription. So instead I picked the Companion.
I don't find the map packs as useless as prior posters, though I do feel they could be improved for use.
I like them, because I don't have to print out the ones from the book and that saves me on ink. It also allows me to always have the current map handy for my reference with less page flipping to get back to the one in the book.
However, if there was some way to make them into battle maps ... I know those are vastly more expensive because of the need to have the art drawn differently and all, but even a simpler version of the map with the rooms delineated and all.
I love handouts and cards ... maybe turning the maps into player safe versions, and including the pictures of the people and handouts? That would allow for cleaner printouts on my side, and less wasted ink and paper ...
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I have found the RotR Map Folio extremely helpful when running that AP. I imagine the others will be just as helpful when I move on to another AP after this one concludes. The poster maps are great, and I laminate them to be used as durable visual aids throughout the campaign. That said, the fact that not every map is included is a big drawback. I get very used to having my own copy of the map separate from the room descriptions in the book and then have to retrain myself to flip back and forth for those missing maps.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I haven't had a chance to run any of the APs so far, but I think the folios would be useful if I ever DID get to run them. Having separate, larger maps of all the pertinent areas in an AP would be invaluable (since I hate trying to blow up and print PDFs). Having said that, I'm not sure they're so valuable that they warrant the expense.
Would my world be crushed if they were discontinued? No, not really. Overall, I can't say I really see the point in continuing a line that only a select few people find much use with. If I ran the APs regularly, though, they'd be a lot more valuable to me personally.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I've complained about them since day one. I don't mind such a product being offered, but I don't like it being included in my subscription. I have all the maps in pdf format - I can print a hard copy if I want one. If it's going to be rebundled and sold as a second product, I want something extra for my dollars - either new maps, a short adventure, an index, or something like that. Maybe they could contain errata or suggestions for the adventure path given that they come so late in the process - a chance to fix any mistakes that slipped through the cracks or add in encounters to tie up loose ends. That I would like.
But, just repackaging maps and selling them to me twice? No thanks.
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I'm interested to hear opinions about the Pathfinder Chronicles Map Folios. So far we've got one released or slated for every announced Adventure Path, and another one filled exclusively with city map posters on the way.
Do you like this sort of thing? Would the world be torn asunder if they were not a regular feature?
I need to make some decisions about 2010, and I don't really have a sense of whether these are "working" or not.
Please help me determine this.
Thanks,
Erik
I bought the Rise map folio and found that it was OK but not reallly necessary to run the game.
I would love a players map edition PDF file. We use a Digital Projector and sometimes it can be a pain to separate the layers just to cover numbers and secret doors. As well I plan on buying the city/world map pack when ever it comes out. Any chance of seeing a small adventure included with this pack?
Anyway Erik I think you could easily turn this into a yearly bit with new cities and perhaps a short adventure or side track for one or all of the new maps presented.
Skeld sums up my feelings about the map folios pretty well.
I feel bad about talking the folios down. I realize when you guys conceived of his product, there were numerous folks on the boards clamoring for "maps" from the AP. So, really, you guys were just trying to fill a niche that customers wanted you to fill. Unfortunately, I feel the folios fail to fill any niche.
one thing I would like to add is that maps, allthough cool, do not really get much exposure at my game table. Mini's, hand-outs, flip maps and map-packs are all excellent ascessoires. City maps and regional maps get some use too. However, most of the lair and dungeon maps are pretty much useless to me.
I own them because theya are part of my subscription. If they weren't, I probably wouldn't have bought them.
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one thing I would like to add is that maps, allthough cool, do not really get much exposure in my game table. Mini's, hand-outs, flip maps and map-packs are all excellent ascessoires. City maps and regional maps get some use too. However, most of the lair and dungeon maps are pretty much useless to me.
See, this is a different way of looking at what is really my biggest issue.
Paizo's Cartography, detail and map design is AMAZING. The problem is, the DM is the ONLY person who can experience it during gameplay.
Seriously, my craptacular black line drawings do exactly zero justice to the visual of the layouts of places like Foxglove Manor, or the Ogre home in Hook Mountain.
Yes, I know there's some 3D alternatives coming in the Legacy of Fire stuff, but that's a bit extravagant for every day play. Yes, I know about the flip-maps, but I want something a bit less generic.
I guess I want map-folios that are a combination flip-map/map-pack specific to the AP I'm running - because it has a direct impact on my table-time.
I have found the RotR Map Folio extremely helpful when running that AP. I imagine the others will be just as helpful when I move on to another AP after this one concludes.
I've found using the "current" map folio page as my bookmark in the AP has been quite helpful - particularly as I'm usually trying to draw the map out upside down. Personally I run the APs slow enough that even starting SD off right away (and running it faster than normal) I only missed about 1.5 modules before getting the map folio.
What really wowed me though was the Zirnakaynin city map.
I am content with them as they are.
Full-size battle maps of particular locations (nice detail main chambers, like PF1's cathedral room) might make good replacements. Not entire areas, just important locales that would fit on 1-2 pages, or a 4 page poster on occasion. These could be just for the locations that are *not* going to be handed by WWG's 3D lairs.
For instance (PF2 spoilers)
Possibly a second product as PDF only of the maps, for those picking up the AP later, would be useful as well.
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Contributor
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I'm interested to hear opinions about the Pathfinder Chronicles Map Folios. So far we've got one released or slated for every announced Adventure Path, and another one filled exclusively with city map posters on the way.
Do you like this sort of thing? Would the world be torn asunder if they were not a regular feature?
I need to make some decisions about 2010, and I don't really have a sense of whether these are "working" or not.
Please help me determine this.
Thanks,
Erik
I absolutely adore them. They jazz my imagination and excite my sense of awe and wonder, which in turn aids me in getting "into" Golarion. From a practical perspective, they are very useful to me as I walk around the table drawing in things for the players. Much easier than holding the AP volume in my hand and flipping from page to page.
I'd also pick up a PDF or software versions of these, as I plan to start projecting maps for my players and wouldn't mind adding features and such for my home campaign.
I guess I still haven't found anyone who could really convince me that I must have them, and this thread in general confirms my sense of their usefulness. Poster maps and battle maps (yeah, I know) are what I feel most the need of, and while I hope to eventually be able to add to my subs (in the not-too-distant future, but not soon enough), I'd definitely be taking the usefulness of the map folios into account when making that next sub decision.
The only thing that I have really liked from the Map Folio products have been things like the Zirnakaynin map. Big happy poster maps that are not already available in pdf form at that detail.
While I enjoy those big poster maps, the map folios are my least favorite product as most of the product doesn't provide anything I don't already have (aside from printing out the maps for me). For me, $15 seems high for what I am enjoying most, the new poster map.
I've been thinking some more about this.
In the Shackled City AP, one of the great additions to hardcover was the inclusion of a map booklet. Having all the maps handy during the game helped a lot.
I fotocopied all the maps I was going to use and put them in flimsies. I usually noted the creatures and traps in each room on the so I had an overview of what my players had to face and how the different rooms responded to each other if the complex is on allert.
With the pathfinder APs, though, I really don't need an extra set of maps because I can just print the relevant pages from the PDF.
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I like the map folios, but agree that there is much that can be improved upon.
I like having a separate page that I don't have to print. I really like having the poster maps.
However, I agree that the paper is not nearly strong enough for what the product is supposed to be for. The cover should have flaps to hold the maps. All of the maps should be there, and at least the same size as in the AP.
And a battle map or two would be really really nice.
To respond to some of the earlier suggestions: I like having the keys and hidden objects on the map (otherwise they are useless as DM reference), and I think that the upcoming card set will satisfy those of you looking for portraits.
I cancelled my Chronicles subscription, but it had nothing to do with the Map Folio. I felt that Chronicles is the one line where I personally get less use out of having both a hard copy and pdf.
The way I look at it, the Folios only fill a handful of roles:
1) Player handouts. Some DMs are less concerned with Fog of War, so the folio gives them a handout they can pass to a mapping assistant without needing to share the whole book.
2) Reference material. Same as above, but so the DM can see the map without flipping around in the book.
If the folios were battlemap sized, then they'd save a lot of tracing with a dry-erase marker and would have a lot wider appeal. Of course, that'd also be hella expensive. (It might be nice if the PDFs contained a version of the file scaled at a square per inch, for the folks who do want to go use the poster printer at Kinkos without tweaking the files.)
Alternative purchase options.
3) A DM who bought his AP issues piecemeal or from his FLGS (i.e. not subscribed) might buy the Map Folio PDF to get access to images of the maps without rebuying the whole AP. (This applies to the print version in a lesser manner: The folio is easier to scan/photocopy/enlarge than an book.)
4) Some DMs don't want an AP, but can always use new maps (The folks who made Maps of Mystery such a popular feature.) This gives Paizo something it can sell to this market without paying for extra cartography.
Of course,
5) Fodder for completists. (Guilty. I buy the AP item cards for the same reason.)
There is also some virtue in option 6:
6) Cross-marketing. The sheer fact that this product exists might entice some folks from category 4 to try buying or subscribing to an AP or two. (Similarly, just finding this product on the shelf at the FLGS might make people ask questions about the AP as a whole.)
Note that 1 & 2 can be overcome by any DM with a PDF of the AP, a printer, and a little time and effort, or even a print versions, a photocopier, and slightly more time and effort.
If the Map Folios go away, it's groups 3, 4, and 6 who suffer. (The completists might whine since now their collection is asymmetric, but they still have everything actually made.)
I don't know how much effort goes into laying out the Map Folios. If the paper versions are fated for oblivion, it'd be nice if a PDF option stuck around for groups 3 & 4. Possibly incorporating my suggestion for a battlemap-scaled PDF.
Also, the city map folios are more versatile than the AP ones, since they're not purely reprints of material you're already consulting to use them.
Background: I had only the RotR folio, and I actually had it when I started to run the adventure path.
As much as I thought the idea sounded great, the utility just wasn't there for me. It was easy to print an extra copy of a map from the PDF if I needed it.
I want to add my voice to the request for player-safe, higher res digital copies of each adventure's maps in the PDF.
As far as a map folio product, I would purchase the folio for any path I ran, if it was a set of battlemaps for the set piece battles from the path. Obviously that would cost more than the current folio product. Even better, the typical person's lack of access to a large-formt printer suitable for making battle maps means that Paizo can add value even if high-res digital maps are included in the adventure path PDFs.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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(It might be nice if the PDFs contained a version of the file scaled at a square per inch, for the folks who do want to go use the poster printer at Kinkos without tweaking the files.)
This.
Yes please. Do want. I don't have the time or patience to scale PDFs or copy them onto dry erase and HOPE that I get the scale right. I would be fine paying $4-5 to Kinko's to just print me off a big honkin' battlemap each time I needed one.
I would rather not have the folios for the adventure paths as they are just repeats- selling me the same thing twice. Even though I am only running RotRL now I can use the maps in the PDF adventures so dont really see the use.
Though I will wait & see how I like the city map folio (assuming it is new stuff), even this I am not that keen on.
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I relize the below would most likely raise the price of the product. But I would pay for a product like this.
I think Many other may be interested if you added these.
What I would love to see from the the Map Folios.
- A Flip battle map type with 2 maps per adveture covering the most likely 2 areas of battle.
- Better and thicker paper quality
- Poster Maps of Main Cities in AP
- Each map comes with a Player version with out information for GMs only.
- A Pocket inside Cover so Maps don't fall out
I LOVE maps but honestly, I think these are just to make another product and sell it out.
I think these are just re-print of stuff we already paid for, most people can just crop out the PDF and color-print whatever they need. I buy these because they are on my suscription and because I pretty much buy all Pathfinder stuff :P but if they remain the same or go away, I won't shed a tear.
I'd love to keep'em if they undergo a complete product redevelopment as most folks here suggest already. I think the map folios can be a terrifict PC/GM aid if a bit more effort is put into it.
Generally, RPG maps in my game are useful for about 5 minutes of gametime before the PCs move on and never go back to a given place. With the exception of large cities or country scale maps which encompass the entire "setting" of a campaign, I don't see how they could be of enough use to really make them desirable. More to the point, such maps need to be discreet about labelling and at least poster size to be worth purchasing in print, otherwise, I would be better off buying a .pdf and doing the print job myself.
That said, even under those circumstances, maps are not high on my priority list in terms of purchases, and I doubt I will be purchasing Map Folios of any kind any time soon.
-C. Robert Brown
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As it stands, every time a Map Folio comes up, I have to cancel my Chronicles subscription. I refuse to pay money for something I can either print from PDF, or cut out of my hard copy. If the AP map packs had PLAYABLE maps, with no keys, that I could throw minis down on without drawing, they'd be worth whatever you wanted to charge for them.
that I could throw minis down on without drawing, they'd be worth whatever you wanted to charge for them.
This is true also. One of the best things about the old Dungeon Web Enhancements was the keyless maps. If the Folios contained keyless maps (even if they contained ONLY keyless maps), their value would go way up.
