Hey all, a lurker here trying to come out of the box.
Something I've been thinking about lately is how a Lawful Evil character or a Chaotic Evil character would handle the emotion Love and things like Family bonds.
Would Chaotic Evil characters form bonds of friendship or even love between mates? Is Love for family and friends something reserved for the Good Guys?
Eric
The disconnect for a lot of people, myself included, is that Evil does not mean sociopathic or psychotic. Certainly sociopaths and psychopaths are evil, but not all evil characters are sociopaths or psychopaths.
The lawful evil example is easy to understand: A lawful evil person adheres to the rules of culture and society, it's just that their goal is to further themselves within those rules rather than help other people. They are capable of emotion.
Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil characters ignore or rebel against such rules. They are self-absorbed or anarchists. But they still have motivations, feelings, and goals the same as any other person.
Look to examples in movies and literature of villains who truly loved. Bladerunner's self-absorbed replicants (perhaps not evil, but I think they are) cared deeply for each other. Numerous mafioso's (murders, thieves, and crooks) are dedicated family men.
I've seen a great dichotomy within a party (that was very, VERY difficult to pull off and done by consumate role-players) between the Lawful Good Paladin who forsook friendship and love for duty and the neutral evil Wizard who would never turn his back on a few close friends.
And remember: Alignment is an abstraction in most games. The evil character may not see themselves as evil!
One of my players plays a LE ranger who does not care for any people at all, not even family. However, she does care for animals and does not want to see them get hurt.
And one all-evil group of ours was a family who did that self-centered selfish bit but the selfishness was centered on the family; characters were loyal to each other but everyone else was fair game. Kind of mafia thing (and possibly if one of the members would seriously endanger the others, there might be consequences "for the good of the family", but we didn't get that far).
There have been other individual characters who have similarly believed in something or loved someone, and would be ready to do bad things when necessary.
Outsiders may deal with absolutes, but mortals are always mixtures. People with evil alignments are capable for all the feelings but they might express and deal with them differently.
Reminds me of a short story I read, of a woman who becomes obsessed with a happy family she observes and who is willing to do anything to keep that family happy...for a psychopath example :)
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Depends, also, on how you take the alignments. Usually, though, evil characters are even more dangerous when in love. It's not uncommon to think that an evil character, when falling in love, would think among the lines of:
"Whatever she asks is a small price for her happiness."
"If anyone makes her cry, I'll kill the bastard."
"She is MINE."
"She'll love me and only me. I'll see to it."
The way this is executed would define if s/he's chaotic or lawful.
Depends if, also, s/he loves his/her family. If not, she might sell his/her child for a good price, for example. If he/she loves his/her kids, s/he'd be like a wolf with pups.
We had a looong alignment discussion (friends and I) when we saw Taken, the one starring Liam Neeson, the retaliation method. We were unanimously in favor of him being chaotic, though some said "evil", some said "neutral".
My definition of most evil people is that they are just ruthless, not caring too much if they have to hurt someone they dislike or don't know. They can still care about their family, and this can in fact be the reason they are evil--to protect them, or to avenge them, they have crossed a line. Think Redcloak, in Start of Darkness (Order of the Stick).
A good example of Chaotic Evil who loves is Strahd from classic D&D (original Ravenloft module and its reprints and settings etc.)
Here's his schtick (possibly a spoiler to someone playing any of the ravenloft/castle ravenloft modules etc.)
Taken from wikipedia for more accuracy than my memory alone
Some time after this reunion, the Count himself fell in love with a young Barovian woman, Tatyana, though she rejected his affections in favor of the younger Sergei. Filled with despair and jealousy, and brooding a growing hatred for Sergei, Strahd sought magical means to restore his youth. In a moment of desperate frustration, he "made a pact with death - a pact of blood." On the day of Sergei and Tatyana's wedding, Strahd murdered his brother and pursued the grieving Tatyana until she flung herself from the walls of Ravenloft. Strahd himself was shot down by the arrows of the castle guard. Even so, he did not die, but went on to rule the land of Barovia as a vampire.
Strahd's curse is that although he is absolute lord and master of Barovia, to the point where he can enter private homes unbidden because he owns them, once every generation he will meet a woman whom he believes is Tatyana reincarnated. He always tries to woo her, but the scene of his damnation is replayed, and the woman inevitably dies
What I feel this shows is a good example of how a truly evil being loves. It's still love but as evil is it is a twisted form as far as morality goes. Evil has many examples of love in history aswell, most major "villians" in history were well liked, family oriented, and had a wife or husband they loved dearly, and yet they commited atrocities.
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I'm going to go with a theatrical evil love.
Imhotep in the Mummy. Here's a guy who was willing to litterally give up everything to have the woman he loved (lusted?) after.
I always took his death in the Mummy Returns as his losing the will to live. I mean he sees Evie risk her life to save the husband she loves and then sees Anak-sun-amun run away rather than do the same. He realized that while he may love her, she didn't really return the favour. I actually felt sorry for him.
From a game expereince, Sharach was Lawful Evil. He'd actually retained the services of a NPC rogue to break in and rob other party members (they'd stolen from the party, and he was subtle in his revenge, I had 5 seperate plots going when the game folded). He'd also asked her to go house hunting. The DM used this as a plot hook and Shadrach was the one arguing the most to go rescue her. He had a sense of duty as she'd been working for him when she got over her head.
He also had a respect for the NG priestess of St. Cuthbert (Old school Greyhawk DM, LN St Cuthbert is for pansies! ;-)) He admired her devotion to her faith and to the orphanage where she was raised. He trusted her, and worried about the day they might be at odds. Not because he'd have any issue in removing her from his path, but that it would cost him someone he liked.
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After all, if you love someone, set them free. If they don't come back, hunt them down and kill them.
FWIW,
Rez
I almost snorted water out of my nose... I might have to quote you with my Incubus Bard/Assassin. I'll have to make you an Abyssal Philosopher, if you don't mind.
And I also believe I didn't cover another spectrum of evil: caring, yet terribly manipulating. For example: A king marries his daughters to princes of other lands, which, in time, disappear, get killed in battle, are poisoned or otherwise just end up dead (while his daughters are unscathed and safe all the time) getting his kingdom to grow powerful and larger.
Nice Posts guys,
Its great to see folks hold the same views on alignments as I do. Ive played a LE gnome for years who cared and loved his race but despised every other creature.
To me Alignments should be a guide post for Rping a character, not something that binds them down.
Eric
Just a note, but I have it on good authority (and evil authority too for that matter) that Insanity has no alignment.
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Oh yes, Evil can love, and when someone hurts Evil's Love, Evil will
Make!
Them!
Pay!
On the other hand, evils acts in order to impress someone a little softer hearted, can be a turn off, and the relationship transforms from lover to stalker.
In general, evil love is often selfish, obsessive, and possessive.
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To me, alignment is your overall behavior, your general predilictions before you take the factors of context, rationality, and emotion into account, as well as the usual process you apply to said factors to reach a decision.
Example: NPC comes home to find his family, whom he loves, was hurt by an armed robber. His child is unharmed, but his wife was seriously injured.
Lawful NPC: Leaves it to the authorities to bring the criminal to justice, concentrates on being there for his wife and child.
Chaotic NPC: Puts up reward bounties for the criminal. May be torn between desire to see the criminal brought to justice and the desire to be with family.
Good NPC: Forgives the criminal if it seems there was a reason for the robbery (starving, etc). Devotes himself to his wifes recovery and soothing any fears of his child.
Evil NPC: Makes a note of every detail he can regarding the criminal, so that if the opportunity presents itself, he can extract a revenge. May spend time pursuing information about the criminal that takes away from time spent with family.
So yeah, a CE NPC may abandon his family for a few days to try to hunt down and beat the crap out of the criminal, but he's doing it out of a need to prove to himself that he can protect his loved ones, even if after the fact. The LG NPC trusts in the authorities and concentrates on what is to him the most important thing: his family.
This is of course keeping in mind that alignment extremes are just that: extreme. And that the average person is neutral, and thus either a middle ground mish-mash, or a swinging pendulum between the extremes.
Love and family are not reserved for good guys. But an evil character might see it as justified to lock their spouse in a tower out of mere suspicion and place a curse upon it; a chaotic evil one might reward disloyalty with a violent beating. A neutral evil character might out of sheer whim decide to spare and even foster someone a la Hannibal Lecter.
Well, I would say a CE character doesnt know love; cant know love and it is an alien concept. Love as a desire of an object; sure, I can see that; but true love of giving of oneself; not at all.
I would suggest that a LE character might know love or might have once known love and been spurned. The thing with LE charactes is that they are plotters and have long term goals; so love would not be a goal but might be a side benefit that grew out of some goal to attain money by alliance to someone with money or power or both. Whoa be unto anything getting in the way of a LE and his love, hehe but that is pretty much true for most alignments. Love is madness; the ancient Greeks considered it a madness.
Hey all, a lurker here trying to come out of the box.
Something I've been thinking about lately is how a Lawful Evil character or a Chaotic Evil character would handle the emotion Love and things like Family bonds.
Would Chaotic Evil characters form bonds of friendship or even love between mates? Is Love for family and friends something reserved for the Good Guys?
Eric
A neutral evil character might out of sheer whim decide to spare and even foster someone a la Hannibal Lecter.
Ninja'd! I was going to mention Lector, but you got to him first. He had genuine affection for Clarice Starling, and in Hannibal, even chose to cut off his own hand rather than harm her. In Hannibal Rising, just about all of his ghoulishness is taken in response to threats aimed at loved ones.
Darth Vader is another example of evil that loves and cares; not just evil, but Dark Lord level evil! He has genuine affection for Luke, although he's become so detached that for a while it seemed as if he could cast it aside in pursuit of the Emperor's goals. In the end, however, he turned to protect his son. One of the only good things to come out of the prequel films was also an explanation of what made Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader; heartbreak over the love lost when his lover and, earlier, his mother died.
Sociopaths bear another mention as well. As mentioned earlier, not all of them are evil. Look at Wrorshak (spelling?) form Watchmen. I'd definitely call him a sociopath, but he's very much an agent of the fight for good (though I can see plenty of grounds to say he himself is not good).
Well, I would say a CE character doesnt know love; cant know love and it is an alien concept. Love as a desire of an object; sure, I can see that; but true love of giving of oneself; not at all.
I disagree with you there. However, they might be extremely possessive. Or they might beat their love. Or, if their love were threatened, they might abandon their love to seek out the threat and destroy it. Possibly harming innocents in the process.
I think you should go back and read pg 106 of the players handbook; yeah; ce "the destroyer" bs if you think that can know love. Maybe some vanilla evil guy could get there; but not someone who is called demonic.
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But that's a simple way to describe it, it's almost like a draft so you can get the main idea. Demons have known love. Maybe not in the classical way. Love is a feeling, unbound to any alignment. Didn't Graz'zt have a strange relationship with Iggwilv (pardon the spelling)?
They were on and off, went and came, half-killed each other, and yet, they were there somehow for each other... sometimes. They even had Iuz. It's not love like in those romantic movies where the guy would gladly give his life for her and he loves her in a pure, honest, wholesome way.
Hrm... kind of London After Midnight's "Love you to Death" , if you might see it that way. A good character would swear that it doesn't count as love, but who are they to judge?
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A neutral evil character might out of sheer whim decide to spare and even foster someone a la Hannibal Lecter.Ninja'd! I was going to mention Lector, but you got to him first. He had genuine affection for Clarice Starling, and in Hannibal, even chose to cut off his own hand rather than harm her. In Hannibal Rising, just about all of his ghoulishness is taken in response to threats aimed at loved ones.
Darth Vader is another example of evil that loves and cares; not just evil, but Dark Lord level evil! He has genuine affection for Luke, although he's become so detached that for a while it seemed as if he could cast it aside in pursuit of the Emperor's goals. In the end, however, he turned to protect his son. One of the only good things to come out of the prequel films was also an explanation of what made Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader; heartbreak over the love lost when his lover and, earlier, his mother died.
Sociopaths bear another mention as well. As mentioned earlier, not all of them are evil. Look at Wrorshak (spelling?) form Watchmen. I'd definitely call him a sociopath, but he's very much an agent of the fight for good (though I can see plenty of grounds to say he himself is not good).
Actually, Rorschach is interesting in that he is a reminder of the fact that people rarely see themselves as evil, even if they're assassins, mass murderers or tyrants. A hard hearted nobleman might see himself as acting well on the part of his realm to execute someone merely for striking an aristocrat--it's preserving the natural order of things. A serial killer sees himself as ridding the world of filth; a torturer is doing a necessary job that fits into the scheme of the state for maintaining order.
I think that good characters in fact ought to from time to time find themselves at odds with the world. A really good example (to me) is in Zola's Germinal in which the young hero finds himself opposed to a brutal senior miner who mistreats his wife, the woman the hero loves. The law and custom are on the brute's side; goodness and right on the side of the hero who wants to save her from him. The paladin finds that most knights are actually venal, arrogant and cold hearted to the lower classes. His conduct is not seen as 'honorable' by them but it might certainly be very good.
I think you should go back and read pg 106 of the players handbook; yeah; ce "the destroyer" bs if you think that can know love. Maybe some vanilla evil guy could get there; but not someone who is called demonic.
But they're only compared to demons. It's like calling someone an 'imp'. Those descriptions the PHB gives are just exaggerated definitions, not altogether reliable.
I think you should go back and read pg 106 of the players handbook; yeah; ce "the destroyer" bs if you think that can know love. Maybe some vanilla evil guy could get there; but not someone who is called demonic.But they're only compared to demons. It's like calling someone an 'imp'. Those descriptions the PHB gives are just exaggerated definitions, not altogether reliable.
Unless one goes by definition that 99% of human beings are true neutral.
Alignment extremes are for outsiders, but they are not applicable for normal people. You have to dilute them.
Would it be better to use the Alignments as Moral Codes to live by? Could you possibly better define the alignments in the same way Palladium Books define their Alignments.
And how many of ya'll are annoyed by folks playing CN as insane? Is their a better way to RP CN?
I'm currently playing a CN Sorcerer and i'm having a hard time settling on a way to RP him. Any advice?
Eric
Would it be better to use the Alignments as Moral Codes to live by? Could you possibly better define the alignments in the same way Palladium Books define their Alignments.
And how many of ya'll are annoyed by folks playing CN as insane? Is their a better way to RP CN?
I'm currently playing a CN Sorcerer and i'm having a hard time settling on a way to RP him. Any advice?
Eric
Personally I tend to play CN like CG with the safeties off. Not insane. Generally meaning well. But not so hung up about doing good, and willing to get their hands a little dirty while overall striving for good goals. Not so dirty they slide into evil, mind you. That's kind of a complex dance, keeping from being evil without actually being good. At least with my group I have to act CG about 80% of the time in order to not get given the evil descriptor because of the other 20% of the time when they feel that the character's actions kinda slide into what could be perceived as evil.
chaotic neutral can be quiet--consider the strangest alternative person you know--or it can be loud--like the 'wild guy' in a buddy movie. Also consider: most children up to a certain age would be cn; our four year old sometimes says totally random things, does totally random things like:
- hides mommy's purse before we're supposed to go out. Watches as she frantically searches for it, finally calling her own cellphone in order to figure out where that is, finding it under his bed, demanding to know why he hid it. He smiles and says, "I like to play tricks."
- sings a song about how marshmallows are made. Just because. BTW, his song does not genuinely describe how marshmallows are made. Apparently they also control the weather.
- does a dance in his underwear with one sock on just for fun.
This would all sound freaking insane if he were an adult, so what I'm trying to say is that sometimes it's all just context.
chaotic neutral can be quiet--consider the strangest alternative person you know--or it can be loud--like the 'wild guy' in a buddy movie. Also consider: most children up to a certain age would be cn; our four year old sometimes says totally random things, does totally random things like:
- hides mommy's purse before we're supposed to go out. Watches as she frantically searches for it, finally calling her own cellphone in order to figure out where that is, finding it under his bed, demanding to know why he hid it. He smiles and says, "I like to play tricks."
- sings a song about how marshmallows are made. Just because. BTW, his song does not genuinely describe how marshmallows are made. Apparently they also control the weather.
- does a dance in his underwear with one sock on just for fun.
This would all sound freaking insane if he were an adult, so what I'm trying to say is that sometimes it's all just context.
I think that your kid is just CG right now, liking to play tricks even though it vastly frustrates people. It's a pretty fine line, though.
EDIT: Oh, not again.
Would it be better to use the Alignments as Moral Codes to live by? Could you possibly better define the alignments in the same way Palladium Books define their Alignments.
And how many of ya'll are annoyed by folks playing CN as insane? Is their a better way to RP CN?
I'm currently playing a CN Sorcerer and i'm having a hard time settling on a way to RP him. Any advice?
Eric
CN should really not be insane. I know some people who play it that way, and they quickly learn insanity of the criminal nature is not well tolerated by the forces of law.
CN represents a rejection of an imposed order but no clear goals after that. Whereas a Chaotic Good character would chafe under having the will of another imposed on them, they still seek to make the world better. Chaotic Evil resents anyone telling them what to do and seeks to increase their standing in the world. Chaotic Neutral doesn't listen to authority - but past that, is rather ambivilent.
You may consider playing your sorcerer as an ambivilent wanderer, whose interest and moods are rather flighty, but who is otherwise pleasant. Perhaps the only time they become angry is when another is "telling them what to do."
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Personally I tend to play CN like CG with the safeties off. Not insane. Generally meaning well. But not so hung up about doing good, and willing to get their hands a little dirty while overall striving for good goals. Not so dirty they slide into evil, mind you. That's kind of a complex dance, keeping from being evil without actually being good. At least with my group I have to act CG about 80% of the time in order to not get given the evil descriptor because of the other 20% of the time when they feel that the character's actions kinda slide into what could be perceived as evil.
I think you could play a CN character who acted CG without having to do the complex dance. Alignment is nearly as much about intentions as it is about actions. If your charcter is willing to use poison, torture enemies, or do other evil acts for the greater good there is a good chance they are not CG but CN. If they are not only willing but have no moral qualms about employing such tactics despite a desire to do good the may in fact be CE.
Alignment can be more complex than the sum of a PCs actions.
Children are indeed good models for CN characters...I doubt anyone would consider Bart Simpson as insane.
I'd also say hedonists with moral qualms could easily be CN; do things which make you feel good, be too self-centered to be CG but shy away from doing any actually bad stuff. Check your local newsstand for gossip rags, they tend to feature plenty of these types as do several reality tv shows which pop to mind (who would you rather have in your adventurer group, Hannibal Lecter or Britney Spears?)
Would it be better to use the Alignments as Moral Codes to live by? Could you possibly better define the alignments in the same way Palladium Books define their Alignments.
And how many of ya'll are annoyed by folks playing CN as insane? Is their a better way to RP CN?
I'm currently playing a CN Sorcerer and i'm having a hard time settling on a way to RP him. Any advice?
Eric
I consider chaotical neutral to be fickle/unpredictable, but not particularly cruel or kind.
Personally I tend to play CN like CG with the safeties off. Not insane. Generally meaning well. But not so hung up about doing good, and willing to get their hands a little dirty while overall striving for good goals. Not so dirty they slide into evil, mind you. That's kind of a complex dance, keeping from being evil without actually being good. At least with my group I have to act CG about 80% of the time in order to not get given the evil descriptor because of the other 20% of the time when they feel that the character's actions kinda slide into what could be perceived as evil.I think you could play a CN character who acted CG without having to do the complex dance. Alignment is nearly as much about intentions as it is about actions. If your charcter is willing to use poison, torture enemies, or do other evil acts for the greater good there is a good chance they are not CG but CN. If they are not only willing but have no moral qualms about employing such tactics despite a desire to do good the may in fact be CE.
Alignment can be more complex than the sum of a PCs actions.
The complex dance has to do with my DM tending to interpret my actions in the worst possible light. The character in question has never even come close to crossing the line to being actually evil. Most other people would view the character as CG. Chaotic Pragmatic might be a better term to describe her :) But morally grey is not an area that the DM is really comfortable with.
Children are indeed good models for CN characters...I doubt anyone would consider Bart Simpson as insane.
I'd also say hedonists with moral qualms could easily be CN; do things which make you feel good, be too self-centered to be CG but shy away from doing any actually bad stuff. Check your local newsstand for gossip rags, they tend to feature plenty of these types as do several reality tv shows which pop to mind (who would you rather have in your adventurer group, Hannibal Lecter or Britney Spears?)
Good call on this...very true. Chaotic neutral being self absorbed or self centered makes a lot of sense.
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"Chaotic" isn't insane, as pointed out before. That's my favorite alignment, most of my characters are CN because it comes natural to me. One day you help a town be saved, asking for no pay because you just "felt like it". The next day you won't move a finger to save a princess because you see no immediate reward, and you make your price clear if they want your aid. Chaotic doesn't mean doing wild things always, it's more of an "unpredictable" kind of mood, as I see it.
You might forgive a big trespassing, and then go ballistic against someone stealing a copper from you. That's chaotic because it's unexpected. You don't necessarily have to run around yelling gibberish right after bathing. That's more of an insanity thing: If you're chaotic, your word is as reliable as the wind right before a tornado. You think of yourself first, and would go to great lengths to be satisfied (even if it means harm to others); yet, you don't harm for the PLEASURE of others in pain, you do it for yourself. Yo do right and wrong as you see fit, you might be whimsical or methodical when pursuing your goals, but in the end, nobody knows how will you react.
"Chaotic" isn't insane, as pointed out before. That's my favorite alignment, most of my characters are CN because it comes natural to me. One day you help a town be saved, asking for no pay because you just "felt like it". The next day you won't move a finger to save a princess because you see no immediate reward, and you make your price clear if they want your aid. Chaotic doesn't mean doing wild things always, it's more of an "unpredictable" kind of mood, as I see it.
You might forgive a big trespassing, and then go ballistic against someone stealing a copper from you. That's chaotic because it's unexpected. You don't necessarily have to run around yelling gibberish right after bathing. That's more of an insanity thing: If you're chaotic, your word is as reliable as the wind right before a tornado. You think of yourself first, and would go to great lengths to be satisfied (even if it means harm to others); yet, you don't harm for the PLEASURE of others in pain, you do it for yourself. Yo do right and wrong as you see fit, you might be whimsical or methodical when pursuing your goals, but in the end, nobody knows how will you react.
The way I see it, yes and no. The problem I find with the pendulum character, swinging wildly from one extreme to the other, is that is very easy to slip away from anything that could be called a believable psychology. In my eyes, regardless of alignment, a character should have a personality, a psychology, and motivations; these are actually the basis of that character, while the alignment is just a quick way to sum that up in a general, at-a-glance archetype. Given that, even the most chaotic character* should take actions that make sense. The pendulum character often doesn't. For many players, the only explanation for their PC's random mood swings is "I'm chaotic," which I find patently unbeleivable.
*I'm excluding such entities as the Slaadi from this statement.
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The problem I find with the pendulum character, swinging wildly from one extreme to the other, is that is very easy to slip away from anything that could be called a believable psychology. In my eyes, regardless of alignment, a character should have a personality, a psychology, and motivations; these are actually the basis of that character, while the alignment is just a quick way to sum that up in a general, at-a-glance archetype. Given that, even the most chaotic character* should take actions that make sense. The pendulum character often doesn't. For many players, the only explanation for their PC's random mood swings is "I'm chaotic," which I find patently unbeleivable.
*I'm excluding such entities as the Slaadi from this statement.
Well, that's... interesting. I play them effortlessly like that because I'd be like that if could get away with everything (like my character can). When I wake up in character, I just ask myself: "what do I want today?" and just go for it.
Many times I exploit weaknesses or opportunities: if I can get money out of a prince but not from a widow, and I feel like helping today, why not get paid if I'm gonna do it anyway? I don't care about 20 years from now, I'm still young and I'll plan things later. I can get money from jobs like these in the future, so, I won't start my retirement savings just now.
Maybe I woke up with the "don't bother me" attitude. You'll have to convince me to do almost everything. (Yet, I always try -and almost always succeed- roleplaying this to be fun for others).
That's how it works for me. Maybe I'm just a few inches away from going mad, maybe everybody has to pretend to be something they're not to go on with a socially-accepted (and therefor, being able to have a job and other necessary things) lifestyle.
The way I see it, yes and no. The problem I find with the pendulum character, swinging wildly from one extreme to the other, is that is very easy to slip away from anything that could be called a believable psychology.
I wasn't suggesting that. I was thinking more along the lines of Joe Pesci in "Goodfellas": sometimes he can take a joke just fine, and sometimes he'll shoot your foot off for making a wisecrack.
Or, as this scholar has noted:
"Ninjas are the ultimate paradox. On the one hand they don't give a crap, but on the other hand, ninjas are very careful and precise."
Truer words were never spoken.
A good example of Chaotic Evil who loves is Strahd from classic D&D (original Ravenloft module and its reprints and settings etc.)
I had always thought Strahd was Lawful Evil? Certainly, the unholy act that damned him to the Dread Realms was a moment of weakness and very chaotic, but afterward he settles into a very lawful mindset. In the novels, he upholds absolute law in his domain for the first few centuries, even allowing his enemies a certain level of mercy on some occasions because of the law, while mercilessly and precisely dealing with some of his other enemies once the opportunity arises.
Sure, he's not always 100% lawful every single moment, but his mentality certainly leans that way. I would foresee Barovia being a much scarier place if he were chaotic... Just my opinion.
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*(Ray wishes he'd found this Thread a couple days ago)
As a gamer/ DM, since there is so much room for interpretation and development of alignment concept, it's imperative for a Player to articulate, before play, what makes the PC the certain alignment. Is your PC the LE that would do this or that in some-such kind of situation? Same with CG, N, and all the others.
We can all describe a couple (at least) reasonable ways to run a LE or CN or Good PC. In the same way Strahd loves (loves, Valegrim) Tatyana and is evil, an evil PC can have a very strong personality trait that stereotypically fits with "goodness." Not to mention that we could (more easily) debate if Strahd is Lawful or Chaotic.
-W. E. Ray
"Chaotic" isn't insane, as pointed out before. That's my favorite alignment, most of my characters are CN because it comes natural to me. One day you help a town be saved, asking for no pay because you just "felt like it". The next day you won't move a finger to save a princess because you see no immediate reward, and you make your price clear if they want your aid. Chaotic doesn't mean doing wild things always, it's more of an "unpredictable" kind of mood, as I see it.
You might forgive a big trespassing, and then go ballistic against someone stealing a copper from you. That's chaotic because it's unexpected. You don't necessarily have to run around yelling gibberish right after bathing. That's more of an insanity thing: If you're chaotic, your word is as reliable as the wind right before a tornado. You think of yourself first, and would go to great lengths to be satisfied (even if it means harm to others); yet, you don't harm for the PLEASURE of others in pain, you do it for yourself. Yo do right and wrong as you see fit, you might be whimsical or methodical when pursuing your goals, but in the end, nobody knows how will you react.
Tnemeh,
I really like your feel for CN. My character has developed a fear of Rats, how would you react to a situation like I was in recently where my character was attacked by a swarm of the vermin?
Eric
How would one play a "Good" assassin? I loved the books by Robin Hobb, The Farseer Trilogy. In it I see an example of a "Good" assassin, does the D&D alignment system allow for this type of character?
Also how would having a atheist view of the World (in a D&D campaign) affect alignment?
Could you play a Atheist Paladin? What about a Black Guard?
LE is face becoming my favorite alignment, are their any real world examples of LE folks? Would a LE character make a good Anti-Hero?
Sorry if this seems a little random, heheh.
Eric
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I really like your feel for CN. My character has developed a fear of Rats, how would you react to a situation like I was in recently where my character was attacked by a swarm of the vermin?
Eric
Thanks =D
Depends. As in "the party was attacked"? I'd RUN LIKE HELL. Let the rest take care of the problem, I'M not going near a rat. Depending on the context that's what I'd do. Run or:
...if I had Use Magic Device (with the required wand) or fire spells available, then, it'd be smoking rats, like the old wise phrase says: Kill it with fire. Or make sure the magic user does it.
"Fireball the rats!"
"But... but they'd probably die with a ray of frost and I--"
"FIREBALL THE RATS!"
*fwoosh*
"Thanks =) Nothing says 'I love you (char's name)' like fireballing rats for me."
On the other hand, for a good (and I mean GOOD) assassin, try the Slayer of Domiel Prestige Class (Book of Exalted Deeds). Quite straightforward. Because, as such, the Assassin PRC asks for an evil alignment, and killing only for the sake of being an assassin (which, if you weren't, turns you evil).
I really like your feel for CN. My character has developed a fear of Rats, how would you react to a situation like I was in recently where my character was attacked by a swarm of the vermin?
Eric
Thanks =D
Depends. As in "the party was attacked"? I'd RUN LIKE HELL. Let the rest take care of the problem, I'M not going near a rat. Depending on the context that's what I'd do. Run or:
...if I had Use Magic Device (with the required wand) or fire spells available, then, it'd be smoking rats, like the old wise phrase says: Kill it with fire. Or make sure the magic user does it.
"Fireball the rats!"
"But... but they'd probably die with a ray of frost and I--"
"FIREBALL THE RATS!"
*fwoosh*
"Thanks =) Nothing says 'I love you (char's name)' like fireballing rats for me."On the other hand, for a good (and I mean GOOD) assassin, try the Slayer of Domiel Prestige Class (Book of Exalted Deeds). Quite straightforward. Because, as such, the Assassin PRC asks for an evil alignment, and killing only for the sake of being an assassin (which, if you weren't, turns you evil).
Hehehe,
As it happened the rats swarmed out of the body of a dead body, I used alchemist fire on the swarm (Catching the parties fighter in the process on fire also) I then assaulted the body for being a harbinger of my doom.
The fighter was a little upset but it got some laughs, it was a honest bad roll on my part. The DM is having some fun with my phobia, we are hunting down a were-rat. ugh, goblin were-rat at that.
Eric
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I always found Slayer of Domiel kind of silly. It's the True Lies prestige class.
"Harry? Did you kill all those people?"
"Yes, but they were all bad."
Well, it's the only legal way to manage a good assassin. And if you play it well, it's quite something. You have to make sure your target deserves it, you can't just go around killing evil people. You believe in repentance, for your character believes that death isn't always the answer; the PrC is presented as a last resort.
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Hehehe, The DM is having some fun with my phobia, we are hunting down a were-rat. ugh, goblin were-rat at that.
Eric
Ok. First thing first: get a RANGED weapon, I don't believe you wanna go near a wereRAT. And second, if your DM is having fun, just go along with it. Buy charms to ward off rats, carry rat poison with you at all times and buy a ton of rat-traps to lay around your bedroll when camping outside. If rats don't fall in them, you might as well get anything that was trying to get you. Or a drowsy fellow adventurer, but, mreh, casualties of war.
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LE is face becoming my favorite alignment, are their any real world examples of LE folks? Would a LE character make a good Anti-Hero?
Don't take this as a joke, but some (most?) attorneys. Even the "good" ones (i.e. prosecutors). A lot of attorneys will bend the law every which way, destroying the spirit of the law to use the letter of the law to the benefit of their client.
To harp on the D.A.s office (sorry, I have a beef ;)), there are several stories about prosecutors withholding exculpatory evidence in order to get a conviction (the current Ted Stevens story is a good example). Many of them do so because they are convinced the defendant is guilty and do not want to see a "scumbag" let free, but it doesn't matter.
Like they say, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", and what is more Lawful Evil than Hell?
Like they say, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", and what is more Lawful Evil than Hell?
My grandmother would be, but she's insane so she's removed from the alignment chart by default...
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To me, alignment is your overall behavior, your general predilictions before you take the factors of context, rationality, and emotion into account, as well as the usual process you apply to said factors to reach a decision.
Example: NPC comes home to find his family, whom he loves, was hurt by an armed robber. His child is unharmed, but his wife was seriously injured.
Lawful NPC: Leaves it to the authorities to bring the criminal to justice, concentrates on being there for his wife and child.
Chaotic NPC: Puts up reward bounties for the criminal. May be torn between desire to see the criminal brought to justice and the desire to be with family.
Good NPC: Forgives the criminal if it seems there was a reason for the robbery (starving, etc). Devotes himself to his wifes recovery and soothing any fears of his child.
Evil NPC: Makes a note of every detail he can regarding the criminal, so that if the opportunity presents itself, he can extract a revenge. May spend time pursuing information about the criminal that takes away from time spent with family.
So yeah, a CE NPC may abandon his family for a few days to try to hunt down and beat the crap out of the criminal, but he's doing it out of a need to prove to himself that he can protect his loved ones, even if after the fact. The LG NPC trusts in the authorities and concentrates on what is to him the most important thing: his family.
This is of course keeping in mind that alignment extremes are just that: extreme. And that the average person is neutral, and thus either a middle ground mish-mash, or a swinging pendulum between the extremes.
Uh-oh going from your test there I think I'm probably CE...
But you love your family, so there's hope for you yet!
See, this is how it generally goes in my games. Mortals (and their alignments) are fragile things, so easily swayed by temptaion. Chaos and Evil are the downhill side of the slope, they are easier, more profitable, less stressful, etc. Law and good take dedication, patience, faith, and sticking to your guns even when under duress.
Most people, when truly pushed, especially when it comes to family, tend to break or bend on their "public" ethics a fair bit. Only a few truly rise above, to coin the phrase.
Mortals are temptable, but they are likewise redeemable. Imagine the raw damage and destruction a demon would cause if the one person it truly, honestly loved was taken from it. Imagine the campaign of intimidation, brutality, and unapologetic ruin that a devil would wage in the same situation. But likewise, can you picture the trust and faith in the powers that be that an angel would show in such a trying time?