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I don't know what made me think of this, but earlier in my life (High School) I was a Cross Country runner. So I thought - hey, since there's specific rules for running in D&D, I could figure out what my constitution stat would have been based on my running times.
My best time in the 5k was 18:06 at high altitude, which adjusts to 17:45 at sea level. That works out to about 10.5 mph. Now there's two rules for running in D&D: Hustle and Run. Hustle assumes 6 mph (way too slow for what I was doing) while run assumes about 12 (much closer). Since I obviously couldn't keep up quite that pace for the whole 5k, let's adjust it down to 2 miles and say I could run 12 mph for 12 minutes. Adjust that to rounds, and we get a continued run for 120 rounds!
Now, according to the rules, a character with a Constitution score of 9 or higher can run for a minute without a problem. Generally, a character can run for a minute or two before having to rest for a minute. You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running.
So according to this, in order to keep running at that pace for 120 rounds, I'd need a con score of ~50-100, and even then make an awful lot of really good saving throws. Which of course is ridiculous.
What is more likely is that I had taken some sort of feat based on my training that allowed me to keep running long after my constitution normally would have allowed it. So....let's come up with a new distance running feat to fit the circumstance!
Feat: Distance run
Prerequisits: Run, Con 13
Description: You can run much longer than normal. You may run at 4x speed for a number of minutes equal to your Constitution score, but after that must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each minute in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running.
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Nice Con you have.
Though it would be interesting to see how your Con would calculate if you did the same thing in armor and loaded ^^
Well, those numbers assume light or no armor and unencumbered. As the rules stand, running in armor you move at only 3x normal instead of 4x. I would possibly amend the feat to say you can only run in light armor or possibly only unarmored.
On that note - the epic non-stop run that Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli make in The Two Towers - would that be considered a Hustle? That would be my guess, considering the extreme length of the journey and the fact that at least one of them was wearing armor.
I don't know what made me think of this, but earlier in my life (High School) I was a Cross Country runner. So I thought - hey, since there's specific rules for running in D&D, I could figure out what my constitution stat would have been based on my running times.
My best time in the 5k was 18:06 at high altitude, which adjusts to 17:45 at sea level. That works out to about 10.5 mph. Now there's two rules for running in D&D: Hustle and Run. Hustle assumes 6 mph (way too slow for what I was doing) while run assumes about 12 (much closer). Since I obviously couldn't keep up quite that pace for the whole 5k, let's adjust it down to 2 miles and say I could run 12 mph for 12 minutes. Adjust that to rounds, and we get a continued run for 120 rounds!
Now, according to the rules, a character with a Constitution score of 9 or higher can run for a minute without a problem. Generally, a character can run for a minute or two before having to rest for a minute. You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running.
So according to this, in order to keep running at that pace for 120 rounds, I'd need a con score of ~50-100, and even then make an awful lot of really good saving throws. Which of course is ridiculous.
What is more likely is that I had taken some sort of feat based on my training that allowed me to keep running long after my constitution normally would have allowed it. So....let's come up with a new distance running feat to fit the circumstance!
Feat: Distance run
Prerequisits: Run, Con 13
Description: You can run much longer than normal. You may run at 4x speed for a number of minutes equal to your Constitution score, but after that must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running....
Hello,
I am a new beginner runner, though I too used to run in high school in the cross country team way back then... Being a D&D geek, I have, of course, used this many a time to calculate my constitution. There are many complicating issues, however, that stem from various possible methodolgies of doing this (and also from the fact that running rules in D&D are rather bad both from realism point of view and in my opinion also from the gameplay point of view).
Let's look at your case and your methodology, but correct some of the incorrect assumptions you made. Let us say you can run a 5K at 17:45, which is a very respectable speed indeed. This equates to a pace of 5:43 per mile during the 5K run. Running at 4x normal speed for medium humanoids (30ft) would give a pace of 4:24 per mile. There is no way you can maintain that speed for 2 miles - the difference is huge! In fact, most calculations show, that with your level of fitness (based on your 5K time), you could maintain a pace of 4:24 per mile for somewhere betwen 200 meters and 400 meters. Let us be generous and assume it is 400 meters. At a pace of 4:24 it would take you about a 1 minute and 6 seconds to run those 400 meters. This translates to 11 rounds of running. Note that this is your best peak performance, so we could assume you have rolled natural 20s on your attempts to keep running... but let us be generous and assume you only rolled average each time: 10 (technically 10.5, but let's round down) - we could say you were 'taking 10' (just to simplify). That translates to your Constitution score being 4 (11 rounds of running in total: 4 rounds of running without making checks and 7 extra rounds [Con 4 gives a penalty of -3 to the 10 you roll each time] making checks while 'taking 10' all the time - remember that this is your best time/peak performance), based on the rather generous assumptions we made.
So your Constitution score being 4 under D&D running rules, what can we say? Well, we can see just how unrealistic these rules are, because your performance is highly above average, yet it gives you a ridiculously low Constitution score. The average person takes about 10:30 to run one mile and the average male in his 20s takes about 8:30 to run one mile (both numbers are rounded to the nearest 30 seconds, because I no longer remember the precise figures). You could run 5K at a speed that is almost twice that of what the average person could run for one mile, yet you are given a Constitution score of 4. Ridiculous? Yes, it is. The average male in his 20s would have a Constitution score so low that it would be off the scale (at the lower end) of D&D charts if running performance was used as a basis for calculation.
The running rules are pretty ludicrous in terms of their realism and at best mediocre in terms of gameplay (I have changed them in my games to make gameplay better, though I have preserved 'D&D realism' or lack thereof).
Here is another anecdote:
A 1st level Barbarian with the Run feat and a Constitution score of 6/-2 can run 800 meters in under 1 minute and 19 seconds (using the same take 10 assumptions on saving throws as in the previous calculation). The actual world record for that distance is slightly over 1 minute and 41 seconds for men and a little over 1 minute and 53 seconds for women. This 1st level Barbarian with Con 6 does not just break the world record, he utterly shatters it. The best Olympic athletes would look like mediocre amatures compared to this guy.
Yet another anecdote:
A 1st level Commoner with the Run feat and a Constitution score of 12 (using the same set of rolling assumptions) could run 1000 meters (1 kilometer) in a tiny bit over 2 minutes 11 seconds, which would be a world record pace, because the current male record for that distance is a tiny bit under 2 minutes 12 seconds and the female record is just under 2 minutes 29 seconds. Well, at least the1st level 12 Con Commoner beats the world record holder by less than 1 second - unlike our 1st level 6 Con Barbarian which shatters his puny olympic competition that is many leagues below his running ability.
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Ok, when I ran cross, my average 5k was @16 minutes, with 15:46 being my best (perfect conditions for running that day in Florida, about 65 degrees with a light drizzle).
I weighed 145# on a six foot frame, body fat was 5% or so, my lung capacity was amazing (we tested it in biology class) and my resting heart rate was 47bpm. So, according to y'alls calculations, I had a...5 con?
Yeah, seems the running rules are goofy.
Running capabilities in D&D are blown out of proportions.
When you run, it means that you make a full sprint, meaning run as fast as you can.
I would say that you can do this for 2, 3 rounds tops.
for speed of 30ft per round while running you would do 100m in 16,66 sec
with run feat 100m in 13,33 sec
with 40ft base speed 100m in 12,5 sec
with 40ft speed and run feat 100m in 10sec flat.
with base speed 50 and run feat 100m in 8 sec
WORLD RECORD ON 100m IS: 9,72sec by Usain Bolt
WORLD RECORD ON 200m IS: 19,30sec by Usain Bolt
WORLD RECORD ON 400m IS: 43,18sec by Michael Johnson
as you can see, peak of running speed is around 200 meters or in game time little over 3 rounds.
while Johnson did sprint over 7 rounds, his pace did drop by cca 12% and would drop even more with coming to 1min(or 10 rounds) mark.
And I would say that really, CON checks should go past round 3 not round 10.
In-game, I use an Endurance skill (Con modifier) that supercedes the old feat, and I peg distance running to that. Endurance also governs tasks like sleeping in armor, etc.
Ok, when I ran cross, my average 5k was @16 minutes, with 15:46 being my best (perfect conditions for running that day in Florida, about 65 degrees with a light drizzle).
I weighed 145# on a six foot frame, body fat was 5% or so, my lung capacity was amazing (we tested it in biology class) and my resting heart rate was 47bpm. So, according to y'alls calculations, I had a...5 con?
Yeah, seems the running rules are goofy.
Yep, your Con would be something like 5 under those rules, despite your excellent performance in the real world.
I am currently in pretty good shape. Not in amazing shape like I was when I was doing cross country in high school, but in a much better shape than an average man in his 20s (using this, because this is the prime age group and gender group that is best at running). At this time, I can run one mile in 6 minutes 10 seconds, which is much worse than my top times of yesteryear, but still much better than the average man in his 20s (about 8 minutes 30 seconds) not to mention the average person (about 10 minutes 30 seconds). My current best time for 200 meters is about 33 seconds, which according to the running rules of a grand total of dun, dun, dun, dun: 1!
Running capabilities in D&D are blown out of proportions.
When you run, it means that you make a full sprint, meaning run as fast as you can.
I would say that you can do this for 2, 3 rounds tops.
for speed of 30ft per round while running you would do 100m in 16,66 sec
with run feat 100m in 13,33 sec
with 40ft base speed 100m in 12,5 sec
with 40ft speed and run feat 100m in 10sec flat.with base speed 50 and run feat 100m in 8 sec
WORLD RECORD ON 100m IS: 9,72sec by Usain Bolt
WORLD RECORD ON 200m IS: 19,30sec by Usain Bolt
WORLD RECORD ON 400m IS: 43,18sec by Michael Johnsonas you can see, peak of running speed is around 200 meters or in game time little over 3 rounds.
while Johnson did sprint over 7 rounds, his pace did drop by cca 12% and would drop even more with coming to 1min(or 10 rounds) mark.
And I would say that really, CON checks should go past round 3 not round 10.
Agreed, except that I would be even harsher. I would say that the maximum speed can only be automatically kept for 1 round and anything beyond that requires CON checks (which means the sprints could still be kept up for longer than that, even much longer for those with good CON scores).
Hey people I really love talking about how reality and D&D don't speak the same language.
And this thread gave me ideas, so thanks for all!
My current best time for 200 meters is about 33 seconds, which according to the running rules of a grand total of dun, dun, dun, dun: 1!
This should read: My current best time for 200 meters is about 33 seconds, which according to the running rules equates to a Constitution score of a grand total of dun, dun, dun, dun: 1!
Hey people I really love talking about how reality and D&D don't speak the same language.
And this thread gave me ideas, so thanks for all!
Glad to help! :)
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This is awesome! You guys really took this and ran with it (pun intended)! Thanks for expounding on the short distance/sprint part of the rules. I went ahead with the run rules as I did in the distance segment because there's nothing in current existence to fill the gap between hustle, which is way too slow, and run, which is way too fast. The reason I justified being able to run for that kind of distance at 4x is by requiring the run feat, meaning you're not actually going all out at your top sprint speed (which increases to 5x with the feat).
The running rules are pretty ludicrous in terms of their realism and at best mediocre in terms of gameplay (I have changed them in my games to make gameplay better, though I have preserved 'D&D realism' or lack thereof).
What changes have you figured out to make short distance running work better?
This is awesome! You guys really took this and ran with it (pun intended)! Thanks for expounding on the short distance/sprint part of the rules. I went ahead with the run rules as I did in the distance segment because there's nothing in current existence to fill the gap between hustle, which is way too slow, and run, which is way too fast. The reason I justified being able to run for that kind of distance at 4x is by requiring the run feat, meaning you're not actually going all out at your top sprint speed (which increases to 5x with the feat).
There needs to be some sort of intermediate running speed for longer distances. Perhaps we could make it 3x speed (that equals to a pace of 5 minutes and 52 seconds per mile [almost 6 minutes per mile]) and make it sustainable for 5 minutes per point of Constitution + rolling the saving throw for every 5 minutes thereafter. This gives us a similar level of 'realism' as standard running rules (in terms of what our CON scores would be under that system), so it does not improve on that aspect, but it at least caters to the need for long-distance running options.
The running rules are pretty ludicrous in terms of their realism and at best mediocre in terms of gameplay (I have changed them in my games to make gameplay better, though I have preserved 'D&D realism' or lack thereof).What changes have you figured out to make short distance running work better?
I will dig them out and post them here. :)
Here is the set of rules I use in my game:
The one set of rules where I have always considered 3.5E D&D to be lacking are the mechanics for movement and particularly running. This is especially the case in situations where the exact pace of running is crucial to the game, such as in chases, in racing events or when characters are escaping from a collapsing cavern. There are no good rules for movement/running in a chase/escape/race, since the standard movement rules allow for no variability and thus almost all medium-sized humanoids run at exactly the same pace all of the time. This approach makes for boring chases/escapes/races with pre-determined outcomes and does not mesh well with the more random nature of the game in most others aspects of the rules.
In order to spruce up chases/races/escapes, I have come up with the following mechanic:
Running does not quadruple base speed, but merely triples it. Creatures involved in the chase, however, get to roll a d20 check and gain an extra base speed/10 of movement per round for each point by which they beat DC 0.
(Note: The same effect could be achieved by setting the DC at 10 and maintaining the original multipliers, but this would result in frequent subtraction, which is said to be more difficult and slower than addition. Hence the somewhat non-standard DC 0 is used here instead, to avoid subtraction of speed in virtually all circumstances.)
The Run feat, no longer shifts running speed from quadruple to quintuple of base speed, but rather adds a +10 bonus to running checks. Of course, it still provides the +4 bonus to jump checks made with a running start.
Medium Encumbrance and Medium Armor downgrade base speed in the same way as in 3.5E rules. Heavy Encumbrance imposes a -10 penalty in place of reducing the running speed multiplier to 3x base speed (which would be redundant). This replaces their other movement penalties for the purposes of running.
Creatures can take 10 on their running checks in situations, where their life does not directly depend on the outcome (or in other situations when the DM allows it). One advantage of my system is that taking 10 on running checks yields exactly the same results as would be obtained by following the old running rules, which could, therefore, be used when simplicity is desired. Chases, races, escapes from a collapsing tomb, and other situations, where running speed makes all the difference, however, would be adjudicated using the chase mechanic, since the life of the creatures in question depends directly on their running checks, so taking 10 is impossible.
Apart from making running in life-threatening or other important situations more suspenseful and interesting in and of itself, because the system is based on rolling running checks, it lends itself to modifiers. So for example, the DM can create a scene, where a characters are chasing a thief through the city. The new rules are used as I wrote them above, but to make things even more interesting, the thief can try to throw hurdles in front of the characters, for example by pulling down stalls with fruit in front of them in a market place, or doing things of that sort. The DM can rule that splashing the fruit on the ground by pulling down a stall imposes a -5 penalty to the thieve's run check (because he must spend a bit of time kicking it, or otherwise making it collapse), but the characters must then make either a jump check to jump over he fruit or a balance check not to slip. If they succeed they continue running with no penalty, but failure would impose a -10 penalty on their running checks... Well, you get the picture - it enables the DM to make the chase as complicated or as simple as he wants.
As you can see, my system extends the core system, but does not change the 'realism' aspect, because on average, or when taking 10, it will yield exactly the same speeds.
Note: The system could be extended to account for the 3x running speed addition I suggested in my previous post. In this case, the character would take automatic -10 penalty to his running checks, but would have better endurance (as described in that post) in return.
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There needs to be some sort of intermediate running speed for longer distances. Perhaps we could make it 3x speed (that equals to a pace of 5 minutes and 52 seconds per mile [almost 6 minutes per mile]) and make it sustainable for 5 minutes per point of Constitution + rolling the saving throw for every 5 minutes thereafter. This gives us a similar level of 'realism' as standard running rules (in terms of what our CON scores would be under that system), so it does not improve on that aspect, but it at least caters to the need for long-distance running options.
I like it! I'd probably change it to rolling a saving throw every minute after 5, but that certainly makes distance running work. I'd probably take the rules for the feat I listed above, make the change to reflect the 3x speed, use that:
Feat: Endurance Runner
Prerequisits: Run, Con 13
Description: You can run much longer than normal. You may run at 3x speed for a number of minutes equal to your Constitution score, but after that must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each minute in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running.
I also love the way you fixed short-distance running/sprinting. I think I'm gonna have to print that out and add it to my own rule book.