I would like to create a series of threads where players and DMs can exchange ideas on certain difficulties that arise when certain spells, abilities and powers become available to PCs and monsters.
What to do if he/she/it is invisible?
Please make sure that you specify if your suggestion or solution comes from:
- the beta;
- the 3.5;
- a splat book (and which);
- a house rule;
- a fuzzy interpretation.
Your suggestion or solution can be to even the odds, neutralize or even reverse that spell/ability/power. Feel free to be creative. Feel free to tell inspiring anecdotes.
I wish these threads to be useful for players who meet those chalenges and DM who try to entertain players who have access to these.
Beta/3.5 Glitterdust, See Invisibility.
3.5 dungeonscape answer: bag of flour
Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud (or Solid/Acid Fog) - keep everyone in the same boat of not being able to see. DM discretion on whether the "mist parting" gives away the location of an invisible creature (still 50% miss chance of course).
Also readied actions. Invisible creatures usually at least partially give away their location when they attack. A readied arrow, cloud, fireball or even a charge can help a lot.
|
Beta:
- If I can, I would also turn invisible, then leave the room.
- At higher level, a permanent see invisible
- (the following tactic is conducted by high level characters, please do not try this at home) In Crimson Throne, steal one of the many Red Mantis masks and never take it off, regardless of location.
Scent (from an animal companion, say), high Listen/Perception checks and good ol' process of elimination (e.g. try to fill up every square with a character of creature) are all useful for pinpointing.
Once you've pinpointed an invisible creature, grappling is handy. Or maybe throwing a tanglefoot bag at them; it might stick them to the floor, and some DMs rule that the tanglefoot goo makes them visible.
Clash of the Titans trick - sand or water on the floor, should pick up footsteps (providing they're not flying...)
Many invisible creatures are spell casters, if this is the case then a Listen check becomes invaluable in helping locate the nasty.
That would belong in the "What if he/she/it wants an omelette" thread... Good idea tho ;)
No! No flour in omelette! Maybe in a souffle though.
OK, but what rules would you use for locating with flour or listen, and how much flour would you need?
Honestly a cup of flour in a ziplock bag at a doorseal will completely fill a dorm room (10'x10' area). So a bag (1 Lb) with a ranged touch attack to an area should show about a 10'x10' area probably having the exact same effects as a glitterdust spell.
Darkness is a good see invisibility counter, as is blindness, and silence can help them keep guessing at where you are.
Blinking can cause them to miss with their flour bags, and turning ethereal can confuse your opponent.
Honestly a cup of flour in a ziplock bag at a doorseal will completely fill a dorm room (10'x10' area). So a bag (1 Lb) with a ranged touch attack to an area should show about a 10'x10' area probably having the exact same effects as a glitterdust spell.
I like your empirical reference!
I think a fairly cheap alchemical item (Shinepowder or something) around 10 gp per shot could cover the whole "but it's magic!" arguments about invisibility vs flour.
I'm not sure if it should make any affected invisible creature (in the 10x10 square) visible or just spoted (still as the miss chance and all) and/or if it should give a save (likely reflex).
Personnaly, I think I'd go with:
Shinepowder (Alchemical item, 10 gp. per vial)
This vial can be thrown to cover a 10x10 area. Any creature in the area can roll a reflex save DC15 or be splashed with sticky shiny flakes making stealth difficult (-5 to rolls) and revealing the position of Invisible creatures (the creature still has full concealment)until the powder is removed, taking 5 rounds to brush off or a full-round action using prestidigitation or better appropriate magic (gust of wind) to clear the flakes.
make it water or alcohol soluble too as a full round action and I'm good with it.
However I could see someone argue (successfully IMO) that once the flour hits them they are in possession of the flour and it is now an attended item (much like their clothes or weapon in hand is) therefore the flour itself would become invisible on them.
In this case the square they are in would be revealed (for the round at least) as the flour that would have landed there is on them instead, however they are still completely invisible.
Silent Image can be used as a "cheap" invisibility in some cases, just make an image 5 foot in front of you of everything around you... without you in it. The nice thing is, since you aren't invisible (just hiding behind an illusionary curtain for all intents and purposes) see invisible won't reveal that you are there, and neither will glitterdust. Just don't move or make any noise.
make it water or alcohol soluble too as a full round action and I'm good with it.
Nice touch. I'd make it alchool soluble, make'm work for it a bit.
However I could see someone argue (successfully IMO) that once the flour hits them they are in possession of the flour and it is now an attended item (much like their clothes or weapon in hand is) therefore the flour itself would become invisible on them.
In this case the square they are in would be revealed (for the round at least) as the flour that would have landed there is on them instead, however they are still completely invisible.
I'd say the alchemical solution (quasi-magical) would keep revealing the position until removed and that an improvised or mundane solution (flour, soot, paint, etc.) would reveal for just the round. I guess a handfull of improvised stuff could cover a single square as an attack action.
Silent Image can be used as a "cheap" invisibility in some cases, just make an image 5 foot in front of you of everything around you... without you in it. The nice thing is, since you aren't invisible (just hiding behind an illusionary curtain for all intents and purposes) see invisible won't reveal that you are there, and neither will glitterdust. Just don't move or make any noise.*** Whistle !*** FOUL!
Illusion/Figment: Figments cannot make something seem to be something
else. So you can't seem to be "empty space", that's Illusion/Glamers' job (like invisibility).;)I guess you could hide inside an illusiory box or barrel.
3.5 dungeonscape answer: bag of flour
I don't see why Alchemists Fire wouldn't work if a bag of flour does. :)
I don't see why Alchemists Fire wouldn't work if a bag of flour does. :)
3.5 dungeonscape answer: bag of flour
And then you just swing away at the screaming monster-shaped flaming heap in the middle of the room.
Faerie Fire, though it's easier to target the spell before the enemy goes invisible.
I once had a dwarf fighter/thief (yep, thief) who always carred a couple bottles of ink. Fighting something invisible? Pop the stopper and hold the open ink bottle in hand, then whirl your arm around like a helicopter - guaranteed to douse everything nearby, including invisible foes, with big, black spots.
Incidentally, the ink thing worked on illusions, too - everything not covered in ink spots must be illusory.
Fireball each and every empty spaces :P
Oooh, that's so hard on the fighter up front swinging away with his Blind Fighting feat...
*** Whistle !*** FOUL!
Illusion/Figment: Figments cannot make something seem to be something
else. So you can't seem to be "empty space", that's Illusion/Glamers' job (like invisibility).;)I guess you could hide inside an illusiory box or barrel.
Come again? How can you not have an illusion of an empty room? Isn't that what illusions do? Make something seem to be something else? I'm not actually changing what is there, and I'm by no means invisible, I'm just putting up an illusionary painting of the scene I want them to see in front of me... like putting a picture of an empty hall on a camera so security doesn't see you walking down the hallway.
Most monsters from summon monster & summon nature's ally lists have scent. Couple summons should help pinpoint the square the enemy's hiding in.
Come again? How can you not have an illusion of an empty room? Isn't that what illusions do? Make something seem to be something else? I'm not actually changing what is there, and I'm by no means invisible, I'm just putting up an illusionary painting of the scene I want them to see in front of me... like putting a picture of an empty hall on a camera so security doesn't see you walking down the hallway.
I'm just calling on the Figment subtype of Silent Image witch seems to be only able to adds stuff.
Changing (or hiding) the apperance of something seems to be covered by the Glamer subtype. Both are versions of illusions.
Spells that make things like rooms and area disapear are usualy higher level.
Come again? How can you not have an illusion of an empty room? Isn't that what illusions do? Make something seem to be something else? I'm not actually changing what is there, and I'm by no means invisible, I'm just putting up an illusionary painting of the scene I want them to see in front of me... like putting a picture of an empty hall on a camera so security doesn't see you walking down the hallway.I'm just calling on the Figment subtype of Silent Image witch seems to be only able to adds stuff.
Changing (or hiding) the apperance of something seems to be covered by the Glamer subtype. Both are versions of illusions.
Spells that make things like rooms and area disapear are usualy higher level.
Perhaps the illusion of a wall in front of you would work, as long as you don't do anything through that wall (Makes for a good surprise round as you hear footsteps coming from down the hall...).
DW
And then you just swing away at the screaming monster-shaped flaming heap in the middle of the room.I don't see why Alchemists Fire wouldn't work if a bag of flour does. :)
3.5 dungeonscape answer: bag of flour
Sand, Water, Flour, etc. does not work in our campaigns as someone touched upon above... "It's Magic".
Short of the screaming and the burning smell, Alchemist Fire would just make an invisible creature really really mad(and on fire), not show you where it is like GlitterDust, Faerie Fire, See Invisibility, etc.
Also, when something is hit with an arrow the arrow is not floating like an "Eat At Joe's" sign... it becomes invisible as it is now one of the invisible creatures possessions.
Question: Normally something won't BLEED when wounded, because of game terminology being what it is and all, to bleed out is to be on the ground and under zero hitpoints. HOWEVER if you were to wound an invisible creature with a "Sawtooth Sabre" or the "Rogue Talent" that causes BLEEDING... would you THEN be able to see a blood trail?
Sand, Water, Flour, etc. does not work in our campaigns as someone touched upon above... "It's Magic".Short of the screaming and the burning smell, Alchemist Fire would just make an invisible creature really really mad(and on fire), not show you where it is like GlitterDust, Faerie Fire, See Invisibility, etc.
I'm from the mythical school of monster power circumvention. Player created solutions during play are better (for me) than game design work-arounds. Your mileage may vary.
Disallow unconventional solutions and your battles will all be conventional. Some people prefer that, but not I.
I'm from the mythical school of monster power circumvention. Player created solutions during play are better (for me) than game design work-arounds. Your mileage may vary.
Disallow unconventional solutions and your battles will all be conventional. Some people prefer that, but not I.
Not my rule, I'm just a player. I tend not to excessively argue with a DM as I would rather not see hallways lined with 2" thick dust, as to prevent invisible players from walking about unnoticed.
On one hand I can see how sand,water,flour,etc. would do exactly what it should and reveal an invisible creature, but on the other hand I can see how it's kind of lame to ruin a 2nd level+ spell with 1sp worth of powdered-grain you bought at the market.
Short of the screaming and the burning smell, Alchemist Fire would just make an invisible creature really really mad(and on fire), not show you where it is like GlitterDust, Faerie Fire, See Invisibility, etc.
You can't make light invisible. Alchemist's fire would still create light when it burns. That light would nicely pinpoint the invisible creature.
Our level 17 barbarian/rogue with close to maxed ranks in spot and listen rolled two twenties last night when looking for two invisible wizards. I ruled that the result were enough to spot some sort of clue where the enemy was, which led to fireball saturation bombardment by the tipped-off party sorcerer in the first case, and pouncing charge raging mongoose in the second case.
On one hand I can see how sand,water,flour,etc. would do exactly what it should and reveal an invisible creature, but on the other hand I can see how it's kind of lame to ruin a 2nd level+ spell with 1sp worth of powdered-grain you bought at the market.
How about a situational bonus?
Air filled with flour: + X for perceiving location if moving.
Sand on the ground and player actively searching?: + Y.
That would be a better way perhaps to help creative players while not breaking a spell with a sp worth of material.
Now, how to define X and Y...
Depending on the amount spread +2 circumstance modifier, or -2 circumstance modifier (+2 for floor, it helps you see, -2 on stealth on sand as the footprints can give you away).
or I would go with +/-5.
|
Make a whirlwind attack at every empty space (even better with a spiked chain).
Fight in a 5' wide corridor. Not that many places where the invisible guy can be.
Fight in absolute darkness to equalize the penalties.
Grease or Web the spaces around you ...
Summon a bat who will use its sonar to attack the invisible guy, then target the bat with an area-effect spell.
Detect Magic.
For all those who argue mundane things won't work because "it's magic" well there you go.
detect magic lets you know there is magic in the area, until you spend the extra time though it will not give you a location.
|
Sand, Water, Flour, etc. does not work in our campaigns as someone touched upon above... "It's Magic".
Short of the screaming and the burning smell, Alchemist Fire would just make an invisible creature really really mad(and on fire), not show you where it is like GlitterDust, Faerie Fire, See Invisibility, etc.
As someone else said, light is not turned invisible.
Also, when something is hit with an arrow the arrow is not floating like an "Eat At Joe's" sign... it becomes invisible as it is now one of the invisible creatures possessions.
The spell only applies to items that were on the person when the spell was cast. Anything else added later are not affected by the spell since invisible is an instant effect.
Question: Normally something won't BLEED when wounded, because of game terminology being what it is and all, to bleed out is to be on the ground and under zero hitpoints. HOWEVER if you were to wound an invisible creature with a "Sawtooth Sabre" or the "Rogue Talent" that causes BLEEDING... would you THEN be able to see a blood trail?
It doesn't matter what type of weapon, once a person is wounded they start to bleed out (although with a bludgeoning weapon maybe the bleeding is internal). When a peson is on the ground bleeding out, it means he has lost so much blood he can no longer stay conscience and continue to bleed until he dies or stablize. Once the blood is no longer touching the person (just like a thrown knife or arrow do), it becomes visible.
I have seen in adventures where some one has cast a perminent invisiblity and continual flame on an object to create light with no visible source. (kind of a cool effect)
The invisibility spell specificly states that objects set down become visible and objects picked up become invisible so flour, darts or arrows don't work. Covering the floor with flour, water or sand helps to pin-point location and movement, though.
There are plenty of spells to expose invisible foes, and I had never thought of it, but a grease spell is outstanding! Yet another use for one of the most under-rated spells!