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Tomb raiding or grave robbing?
I just have a quick question I wanted to toss out there. Adventurers often find themselves in all sorts of interesting places. They sometimes find themselves in Barrows, Mausoleums, Tombs, Ossuaries, Pyramids, etc, all sorts of places where the dead have been laid to rest. Allot of adventure’s income comes from “recycling” various gold coins and precious gems from the hands of the dead (and undead too) to the hands and communities of the living. So when are adventurers being “tomb raiders “ ala the man with the fedora hat and bull whip, and when are they being tomb robbers?
Does the presence of living active decedents of the deceased make all the difference between what might be considered raiding and what might be considered robbing?
Does the dividing line lie between the burial places of the current civilization, and previous ones?
I am curious to hear your thoughts
I have been contemplating playing a cleric of Pharasma. (I may never get the opportunity). This I think the distinction between raiding and robbing of a tomb would be very important to a follower of Pharasma. Could one be an effective adventuring cleric?
What are your thoughts?
Id say tomb raiding is when you're taking something for a better purpose, where as tomb robbing is taking something for selfish reasons.
If you steal an ancient scripture from somewhere so it can be put into a museum: tomb raiding.
If you go to a burial ground and steal all the gold off of the bodies: tomb robbing.
Even then though- id say if you stole all the gold from the bodies so that you could buy a sword to help you on a quest to safe a town infected with orcs for instance, then you're doing it for a greater non-selfish purpose: Id call that raiding
Cool question
Tomb raiding or grave robbing?
I just have a quick question I wanted to toss out there. Adventurers often find themselves in all sorts of interesting places. They sometimes find themselves in Barrows, Mausoleums, Tombs, Ossuaries, Pyramids, etc, all sorts of places where the dead have been laid to rest. Allot of adventure’s income comes from “recycling” various gold coins and precious gems from the hands of the dead (and undead too) to the hands and communities of the living. So when are adventurers being “tomb raiders “ ala the man with the fedora hat and bull whip, and when are they being tomb robbers?
Does the presence of living active decedents of the deceased make all the difference between what might be considered raiding and what might be considered robbing?
Does the dividing line lie between the burial places of the current civilization, and previous ones?I am curious to hear your thoughts
I have been contemplating playing a cleric of Pharasma. (I may never get the opportunity). This I think the distinction between raiding and robbing of a tomb would be very important to a follower of Pharasma. Could one be an effective adventuring cleric?
What are your thoughts?
When you heroically enter a tomb and take whatever goodies you find- you are a tomb raider...
When insensitive hoodlums dig up your grandmother and pull her goldteeth- then they are graverobbers...
GRU
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To me, they are just different words put on the same situation. The only thing that really matters is whether the culprits might be indicted for their actions or not.
I always find it funny that "official" archeologists are assumed to ply a noble craft while those who did it unofficialy are labeled graverobbers :-P
As far as your cleric of Pharasma is concerned, I feel that she would frown on any disturbing of the dead (the undead are fair game though, but not what they wear and carry), with the important factor being how much respect is paid to the dear departed.
"I call it archeology. And if you've got a problem with that, I will persuade you ("persuade" is what I call hitting you with lethal weapons and spells until you stop whining)."
Basically the adventurers' code.
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Thank you for your thoughts.
I suppose at the end of the day, if I may quote Ben Kenobi " a great many things depend on one's perspective". One groups "tomb raid" might be another group's "desecration"
It is more of a group identification thing.
Opening "their" tombs is, as KaeYoss suggested, just archaeology, and if you disagree you are just a savage who needs to be taught what is what.
Opening "our" tombs is grave-robbing, and you should be hanged as an object lesson to one and all.
Every now and then a few cultural elements develop that modify that.
Some reject any dealings with graves and bodies at all, theirs or others.
Others embrace the voluntary granting of one's corpse for medical uses as noble.
Yet others preserve you for various reasons, including deliberate public display.
Still others just eat you and have done with it, leaving only memories and perhaps a name taboo to worry about.
Most of it though just comes down to a pure endo-/exo- divide in the moral judgement. The only reason it is even considered today is because of evolving moral attitudes towards other groups (cultural, racial, religious, ethnic, national, or whatever else), as well as resurgences among some groups previously considered suitable subjects for such activities, in the last half century or so.
Perfect example:
In Egypt in the late 1800s/early 1900s, the British considered themselves "archaeologist", whereas, from what I can tell from my studies, the Egyptians thought they were tomb robbers.
Compared to today's archaeologists, the 19th century kind was a bunch of tomb robbers: more interested in salable artifacts (gold, jewelry, etc.) than historical discovery.
I prefer to think of it as, "reappropriation of goods of expired ownership."
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Perfect example:
In Egypt in the late 1800s/early 1900s, the British considered themselves "archaeologist", whereas, from what I can tell from my studies, the Egyptians thought they were tomb robbers. Heck, didn't GB have to return some artifacts at one point?
While the modern Egyptians are certainly irked at the British, and others, looting the pyramids and similar sites with abandon, they hardly have a reasonable record of their own regarding the contents of the pyramids. The irritation is primarily in regards to the sheer value of what has been looted, not any particular sense of cultural trangression. Pyramids were being looted long before Europeans were filling museums with antiquities, and several sites were flooded by the Aswan Dam.
With the pyramids considered to be "someone else's tombs", even Egyptians do not mind exploiting them.In terms of returned artifacts, almost everyone is being called on to return artifacts, especially bodies and body parts, almost everywhere.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Perfect example:
In Egypt in the late 1800s/early 1900s, the British considered themselves "archaeologist", whereas, from what I can tell from my studies, the Egyptians thought they were tomb robbers. Heck, didn't GB have to return some artifacts at one point?
While the modern Egyptians are certainly irked at the British, and others, looting the pyramids and similar sites with abandon, they hardly have a reasonable record of their own regarding the contents of the pyramids. The irritation is primarily in regards to the sheer value of what has been looted, not any particular sense of cultural trangression. Pyramids were being looted long before Europeans were filling museums with antiquities, and several sites were flooded by the Aswan Dam.
With the pyramids considered to be "someone else's tombs", even Egyptians do not mind exploiting them.In terms of returned artifacts, almost everyone is being called on to return artifacts, especially bodies and body parts, almost everywhere.
Some pyramids were looted while they were being built. I'd have to look up which one, but I recall that workmen in one pyramid built a secret passage to allow them to loot it later.
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Grave robbing, grave robbery or tomb raiding is the act of uncovering a tomb or crypt to steal the artifacts (as illicit antiquities) inside or disinterring a corpse to steal the body itself or its personal effects. Someone who engages in this act is a grave robber or tomb raider.
Grave robbing is the bane of art historians and archaeologists; countless precious grave sites and tombs have been robbed before scholars were able to examine them, resulting in the loss of historical finds. Similarly, Chinese jade burial suits were believed to be myths for many years until two were discovered in 1968; it is now believed that most jade burial suits were long ago removed by grave robbers. In China, grave robbing has a very long history, more than 2000 years ago. Many Warring States tombs, such as Chu tombs in Hubei, were robbed in antiquity. The Mawangdui Tomb Complex was partially robbed in the Tang Dynasty, when Tang pottery were uncovered in the excavation of Tomb No. 3.
In medieval and renaissance Europe, students of medicine and of art were reported to have stolen corpses from morgues, private houses, and cemeteries to assist in their study of anatomy. Michelangelo, the Renaissance painter and sculptor, was known for stealing bodies from morgues in order to study human anatomy to perfect his artwork; however, this would more likely be considered a case of body snatching than grave robbery. His rival Leonardo da Vinci was also known for this same practice.
Another type of grave robber, specially in Brazil and other South American countries, is called "dentista da meia-noite" (midnight dentistry), specialised in breaking into mausoleums to steal gold teeth of the deceased. In early decades of the 20th century this kind of crime was "epidemic" in these countries, as cemeteries lacked security or even walls.
Yeah I know not the best resource but hey this is the net, go figure.
Look at it this way; if it was your grave how would you feel? Then you'll have your answer.
Is that one reason I don't plan on lining my tomb with wealth and cultural artefacts?
While the modern Egyptians are certainly irked at the British, and others, looting the pyramids and similar sites with abandon, they hardly have a reasonable record of their own regarding the contents of the pyramids.
Well, they have dibs. Consider their position: They have a little something set aside in the grave of their ancestors - you know, for old age - and then some horrible foreign person comes and takes away your pension fund. You'd be irked, wouldn't you? I know I would.
Look at it this way; if it was your grave how would you feel? Then you'll have your answer.
I'd be spinning in it. Out of laughter. I'll be having several fake graves, all advertised as filled with wondrous treasure, but really they'll be filled with traps and monsters. And when you get to the actual treasure vault, it's filled with cheap kitsch. Try to sell that "magic" sword (it has "magic" written on its cardboard blade).
Look at it this way; if it was your grave how would you feel? Then you'll have your answer.
Another reason for cremation... "You can't take it with you."
Instead of people digging up your body to loot your possessions, you can always have diamonds made from your cremains...
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Look at it this way; if it was your grave how would you feel? Then you'll have your answer.Another reason for cremation... "You can't take it with you."
Instead of people digging up your body to loot your possessions, you can always have diamonds made from your cremains...
Tiara of the Ancestors sounds like a good name for a magical tiara with jewels created from certain individuals within a familial lineage. Perhaps it bestows certain abilities that the prior individuals had upon their descendant. Hmmmm.
Well, they have dibs. Consider their position: They have a little something set aside in the grave of their ancestors - you know, for old age - and then some horrible foreign person comes and takes away your pension fund. You'd be irked, wouldn't you? I know I would.
So, only the Copts, the minority population in Egypt, are irked?
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Well, they have dibs. Consider their position: They have a little something set aside in the grave of their ancestors - you know, for old age - and then some horrible foreign person comes and takes away your pension fund. You'd be irked, wouldn't you? I know I would.So, only the Copts, the minority population in Egypt, are irked?
The answer is caught up in politics. The ethno-cultural identity of Egypt is not a settled issue in the country, and it is further confused by questions of trans-national religious identity.
The result is the pyramids would be considered the way most Americans would consider some frozen mummy discovered in Alaska - a relic of some other culture, whose sanctity is non-existent, not to mention irrelevant, and its value is solely in scientific and economic terms.
Yeah, I started to go with the American Indian parallel, but then decided to go for less tweakage. Go figure: an unusually benign moment.
I was reminded of all of this when I went to the King Tut exhibit. The exhibitors took great pains to try to distinguish archaeology from robbery and museum exhibition from disrespectful intrusion.
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I'd be spinning in it. Out of laughter. I'll be having several fake graves, all advertised as filled with wondrous treasure, but really they'll be filled with traps and monsters. And when you get to the actual treasure vault, it's filled with cheap kitsch. Try to sell that "magic" sword (it has "magic" written on its cardboard blade).
KaeYoss brings up a really valid point. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't many of the Pharaohs have several chambers designed solely for the purpose of dissuading looters and robbers from defiling their actual remains.
You've entered the Lost Tomb of King Mukamuk IV in search of the Golden Scepter of Kickseverythingsarse. You've searched several rooms and so far all you have found is a bunch of cosmetic jewelry and shiny baubles. Together it is all probably worth about 100 gp.
On a successful Search roll you find a secret room. Within the room is a nondescript sarcophagus. The sarcophagus appears to be designed more for function rather than flair. As you try to open the sarcophagus a voice within the room booms "You fools, you think I'd really make it this easy to steal from me"
The room seals and fills with a poison gas.
Several years later...
You've entered the Lost Tomb of King Mukamuk IV in search of the Golden Scepter of Kickseverythingsarse. You've searched several rooms and so far all you have found is a bunch of cosmetic jewelry and shiny baubles. Together it is all probably worth about 100 gp.
On a successful Search roll you find a secret room. Within the room is a nondescript sarcophagus and the desiccated remains of four individuals. The gear that they are wearing suggests that they are adventurers that perished in the chamber. The sarcophagus appears to be designed more for function rather than flair. As you try to open the sarcophagus a voice within the room booms "You fools, you think I'd really make it this easy to steal from me"
The room seals and fills with a poison gas.
Several years later...
You've entered the Lost Tomb of King Mukamuk IV in search of the Golden Scepter of Kickseverythingsarse. You've searched several rooms and so far all you have found is a bunch of cosmetic jewelry and shiny baubles. Together it is all probably worth about 100 gp.
On a successful Search roll you find a secret room. Within the room is a nondescript sarcophagus and the desiccated remains of nine individuals. The gear that they are wearing suggests that they are adventurers that perished in the chamber. The sarcophagus appears to be designed more for function rather than flair. As you try to open the sarcophagus a voice within the room booms "You fools, you think I'd really make it this easy to steal from me"
The room seals and fills with a poison gas.
Several years later...
When I retire from adventuring, I plan to use my accumulated wealth to build an elaborate mausoleum filled with death traps and wandering monsters in which my corpse will be sealed along with the remainder of my wealth (after paying the contractors). Pay it forward, adventurers.
I am playing a cleric of pharsma in the pathfinder society and the question of disturbing graves has come up in one or two adventures. I just let it be known to my party members that if they want to desicrete a grave i will have no part in it and they can do it when i am gone. I feel that is the best possible way to handle that because of the thin line between tomb raiding and tomb robbing. Either of which i believe my god is unfavorable towards.
So, only the Copts, the minority population in Egypt, are irked?Who's up for a game of Copts and robbers? :)
Sure. I'll just have to finish the "beat the punner until he cries" :P
Yeah!
If you're going to rob somebody's grave, at least put the goods somewhere where more of us can enjoy them!
It's a S&S game, your average PC is in the business for money & fame, so it's pretty safe to assume such worlds are pretty lax in that respect (nearly all tomb raiding activities outside of a city's borders falling under "salvage" if you will). Start getting strict with tomb robbing laws and what will happen is that your party will start turning down whatever hooks you throw them that involve burial grounds, after all they'd be all risk and no gain (unless of course someone was paying them handsomely for it).
Sure, most parties have a cleric, but we're all aware that the people in a party rarely (or never) let themselves get saddled by the cleric's ethics, and cleric PCs that keep trying to deny the party from treasure on a regular basis tend to find themselves either left alone or on the receiving end of a gank sooner rather than later. Worst of it, if the cleric is the only one with said moral problems in the party then the actual conflictive element is him, not them.
I see it as much of a muchness - tomb raiding by one name is tomb robbing by another. Bottom line is that such acts are motivated by the promise of treasure or some other reward. Adventurers take the risk and rewards in equal measure...
I remember how an NPC spellcaster was buried with his magic treasure... until my wizard dug him up for those tasty goods... my reasoning: those items did no good in the earth, better in the hands of my [unscrupulous] mage. Now I saw that as tomb robbing [as did the rest of the party damn them] but if he was a long dead mage, in a distant land whe'd have happily kicked open his coffin all in the name of adventure...
I think I saw a punner over there.
Great. I can try for a double kill, then }>
How many extra points when I beat a punner to death with another punner? Some achievement award? Custom avatar? Custom title?
Anyway, could you come here for a moment, you can help me with something.
How many extra points when I beat a punner to death with another punner? Some achievement award? Custom avatar? Custom title?
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Achievement unlocked: PUNisherKill a punner using -another punner- as a weapon
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Punultimate - there can be only one!
Director of Sales
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"It belongs in a museum!"
On topic:
This is an excellent question, and one that would be a fun way to pull the rug out from under your adventurers.
Say... 2 or 3 adventures after a successful dungeon crawl (after the PC's have spent their gold, used their new weapons, and basically forgotten about the run-of-the-mill dungeon) you have the local magistrates show up with the intention of arresting them for grave robbery. For a real bonus: have the locals come from a lawful good society who are just interested in catching the evil bandits who desecrated their ancestor's graves.
It'll be like one of those funny "Three's Company"-type mix ups! But with swords! And deadly magic! Fun!
I enjoyed seeing in Pf#19 [spoiler alert!]
where tomb robbing is clearly naughty!
Great! That way, you can do it for fun AND profit.