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Wow. I really am sorry that I brought the ring up now =P. But this is all I have to say on it. The name of the item defines it for me. Fly means through the air, swim through water. If it was for either, it would be a ring of movement.
Now that I said the name of the item defines it for me, a whole new line of arguments, complete with examples, will erupt.
*things*[threadjack] ... how do you pronounce your handle? :) I love the Gaelic language to look at, but I never know how to SAY it ::laughing::[/threadjack]
you pronounce it C. Wesley Clough (rhymes with enough), But you can call me Wes or Wesley :P
cwslyclgh is just a screen name that I created for AOL consisting of my first initial and the rest of the letters in my name with out any vowels. I use it as a handle for various message boards because it is what my email address is if you just add @aol.com to it (although I only use aol to check my email any more, and not as a browser, I started the practice along time ago, and by now feel I have to keep it up so that people can continue to recognize me online). I do have a fair bit of Welsh in my ancestory, but the screen name looking like a celtic language is only a bit of fortunate happenstance.
Show of hands, who thinks fly is an improved version of levitate? :)
the debate between Sean and Mr. Morton is fun to watch.
personally I think that both of you are "right".
Sean is right based upon the spirit of the rules, while Eric is right based upon the letter of what is actually written.
Creative Director
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Show of hands, who thinks fly is an improved version of levitate? :)
Raises hand.
In any event, the problem here is not whether or not fly works underwater. The problem is giving an NPC treasure out of the blue when the PCs probably should have had a chance to find said treasure the first time they defeat the NPC. Recurring villains of ANY sort are among the most difficult things to do in a pre-published adventure—they're a LOT easier to pull off in a home game, but in an adventure where you don't and can't know about what PCs are playing it, you generally get into trouble any time you let the PCs fight a villain if that villain still has a role to play later in the adventure. Having a villain come back as a revenant is a really creative and fun way to handle that problem, but having the villain suddenly have access to treasure that they didn't have when they were first encountered (whether or not the treasure was useful or not in that first encounter) feels cheaty to me.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka JoelF847
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Show of hands, who thinks fly is an improved version of levitate? :)Raises hand.
In any event, the problem here is not whether or not fly works underwater. The problem is giving an NPC treasure out of the blue when the PCs probably should have had a chance to find said treasure the first time they defeat the NPC. Recurring villains of ANY sort are among the most difficult things to do in a pre-published adventure—they're a LOT easier to pull off in a home game, but in an adventure where you don't and can't know about what PCs are playing it, you generally get into trouble any time you let the PCs fight a villain if that villain still has a role to play later in the adventure. Having a villain come back as a revenant is a really creative and fun way to handle that problem, but having the villain suddenly have access to treasure that they didn't have when they were first encountered (whether or not the treasure was useful or not in that first encounter) feels cheaty to me.
What do you mean? Doesn't the revenant template grant the new creature a ring of flying? C'mon, all revenants have them! :)
OMG you're right! I totally missed that.
I apologize. :)
Show of hands, who thinks fly is an improved version of levitate? :)
Raises hand
Dated reference, I know, but Levitate is "Adjust the Vertical Hold" whereas Fly not only gives you that, but the Horizontal too.
I assume revenants get it because they come back on UHF or some other dead channel.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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Show of hands, who thinks fly is an improved version of levitate? :)
Hmm. Not me. I think they're very closely related magically, and I would group them together, but they aren't in a hierarchy like alter self/polymorph, protection/magic circle and heroism/greater heroism. But fly doesn't have remote control or allow lifting more than your own personal weight limit. Another spell in the same group, overland flight doesn't allow you to hover.
I suppose I'm picky, but for "improved version" I want the higher level spell to duplicate all the functions of the lower (though not necessarily properties like duration).
In the context of the thread, for purposes of travel underwater, I would indeed consider magical flight an advanced version of levitation. And I think magical flight should allow underwater travel. Honestly, though, the speed should be reduced by half or more.
Show of hands, who thinks fly is an improved version of levitate? :)Show of hands, who can prove it by quoting the rules of the game? :P
Ummm ... first edition. Levitate is stated to provide vertical movement, but not horizontal. Fly is stated to provide both vertical and horizontal movement ...
Which is an upgrade, since it provides more options of movement, and that's how I've always thought of it for some 30 years of gaming :)
I like Matthew's entry quite a bit. I think it is a great use of Magnimar, love the sea monster, and adore the underwater fire creatures. I even like the "Denying the.." part of the name. I hope we see much more from him in the long run.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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Now that voting is over, I think I can speak about some of the comments above. But first let me say again that I have enjoyed this contest a great deal and I'm honored to have made it as far as I did. I want to say good luck to everyone in the top four and good job to the top 32. I would also like to say that I think Trevor's showmanship through out the contest has been superb, and would like to commend him for it.
I will comment mostly on Mr. Jacob's “Things He Didn't Like” list, mostly because he put them in an orderly list and most of the other comments can be found on this list.
One think I can say for my proposal, it should add an extra sentence to the underwater rules in the Pathfinder's Handbook when it comes to a fly speed. I myself am torn. When I think of human flight, I think of Superman, who can fly through water lick-a-dee-split no problem. But when I picture a harpy or a dragon in water I don't get the same feeling. So are we talking about using a fly skill check underwater? Replacing the swim check? Because I don't think you are flying, you're swimming, which would be a swim check. Even if you are using the fly spell, you're still underwater, so you are still swimming because you are moving through water. If there was a spell to give you a swim speed (which I'm sure there is somewhere) you wouldn't be able to use it the swim through the air. Just a different way to look at it (I hate debating on these forums because I fear coming across as a jerk with them being void of body language and tone of voice).
I guess the first thing on people's minds is the ring of flying coming out of nowhere, and I have to confess that it made sense in my head and here's why it did. This isn't the only base of the Boiling Sisterhood and Marnett isn't the only big bad boss. But upon reread my proposal, I see that the idea of the Boiling Sisterhood did not coming across as large as I personally pictured it, taking up pieces of the Irespan far out into the sea. This being said, Marnett simply went to another settlement and “geared-up”. Now, after reading peoples thoughts on the matter, I see it would have been much better and easier to say she was a reventant with fly at will. Ghost should fly in my view, and Marnett was more a solid form ghost to me that an intelligent zombie, like the Crow character.
Yes, the Dancing Collar let's someone use a +4 dancing weapon and that would be really overpowered at this level, but it only lets them use it three rounds a day. Which I think make it's right for the 9-10 level ballpark.
Mr. Jacob's commented on Magnimar being destroyed, I don't see it going that far, not to where “maps would have to be redraw.” Some buildings, the wooden ones near the shore with no protection most likely, would fall. But the rebuilding would start before the heroes even leave town, as it always does at the ending of stories like these. And 160 townspeople going blind would suck, but I don't see it changing anything in the city for the next adventure or story taking place there. I know you are looking at things as an editor though and there most likely is something I'm over looking. So the blindness could be easily cut and worked around.
The Eye of Abendego. I got nothing to say, that was a big mistake on my part and I would replace it with a normal hurricane leaving the liches spread across the earth as small bits of water and air.
As for the lighthouse, I knew that Magnimar had a lighthouse, two if you count the Floodfire at the river's mouth. But I didn't see the Wyrmwatch lighting the docks east of the Irespan or helping smaller ship out northeast of the city hugging the coast down from Riddleport and Sandpoint. A lighthouse so high up on the Irespan would do that. That was my reasoning, and I knew by the end of the adventure's drama it wouldn't get built anyway.
Wanderlei is a really scary looking UFC fighter and it was where I got the name Vanderlae. I don't watch Seinfeld, but a name is just a name. Already changed.
Were-rat Boggard. That's something that bugs me about all the were-monsters, how they are excluded from certain races, mostly the non-mammal ones. Were-humans or dwarves are fine. A were-bear lizardman though, is viewed as silly. But in these fantasy/gaming worlds it would be just as easy for these races to come under were-curses as anyone else. A were-bear lizardman doesn't seem weird to me, it seems like something that is bound to happen sometime within the time-line of a game setting like Golarion. Here, I see Boggards in the swamp and I see rats in the swamp, so I say it's only a matter of time before it happens somewhere and it would make them better suited for the swamp in the end. I do understand that this would give fans the wrong first impression of the Boggard as a whole though. They are a very cool race and I personally wanted to see more of them, which is why I put them in my adventure. But I can't see why they could never be were-rats in a fanasty world because that is “too weird”. That doesn't seem right to me. And the art alone would make me want to buy the adventure.
Coral Treants. They're just treants. No templates or stat changes. Plants can grow underwater, so in my view, treants can grow underwater. Core is just a flavor touch. They could be easily covered in barnacles as well.
Gelatinous cubes, as I understand them, suck things into themselves, take what they need and then dump out the metal. It seems to me they could do that with water. Just suck it in the water and take the oxygen, if they even need oxygen in the first place.
New Monster/Blecksprut. Blecksprut is a new monster, not just a changed octopus or kraken (both of which I looked at and decided not to use). I understand that the Irespan is huge, which is why I made the Blecksprut a colossal size monster. So he could climb the Irespan with ease. In theory, the Blecksprut is really nine huge monsters, which seems like a dangerous, but good boss fight. If it ends up too powerful however, having not written the monster up yet, the easiest fix would be just start taking away tentacles until it feels equal to the party. I think as low as three could still work.
Agian, it was great. Thank you all.
-Matthew Stinson
By a strict reading of the fly spell that it only works when in the air or when you're airborne, you couldn't fly in space because there's no "air." You also couldn't fly while ethereal, because there's no "air" there. And you couldn't fly in a room with no air in it. None of which make sense to me. The flight is magical, not with wings that require air flow to work.
But there are separate and distinct rules covering swimming and flying. If fly works underwater, do they gain a swim speed? Can the flyer take 10 on swim checks? Do they get a +8 racial bonus? Do they suffer movement penalties and bonuses for up and down movement that swimmers aren't subject to? Can they make dive attacks?
I agree that logically fly should work underwater, but unless the spell is rewritten it would take far too many DM rulings to make it feasible under the rules.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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That's a local Jacksonville Artist named Glen Zimmerman . He's got some other art on that site, and should be putting more up soon. I really like he's style.
Matthew, please email me at sean@(TheDomainShouldBeObvious).com
Thanks!
RPGSuperstar 2011 Round 5 calibration post
(statement)
(opening question)
No. Whilst B might be conceivably interested in 'collecting' the statue being removed (if the city is prepared to sell it) and hiring a cart and workmen to go fetch it, A, C, and D really don't have much offered to them to entice them out to the Irespan. And being hired on as guards for a construction site is frankly beneath their dignity. Basically, involvement of the foursome at all is dependent upon B's acquisitive instincts and her persuading her friends to come along to assist. Otherwise what follows is just 'weird stuff going on in town' and they'll simply conclude their shopping and leave in a hurry.
(general comment)
Whilst not caring much about anything happening to the city, B is going to be pretty grumpy at the mix-up which has resulted in 'her' statue being shipped off into the Mushfens. She and her friends will set off to retrieve her acquisition. The fact that a group of boggards have hijacked her statue is likely to put B in a foul mood, and the discovery upon reaching the village that it has been smashed is likely to lead to the demise (with extreme prejudice) of every last boggard around. A, B, C, and D will go out of the way to hunt down any escapees, and extract every last drop of information from them about why B's property has been so vandalised - and who gave the orders - and then they will go after the one who issued the order.
Having tracked Marnett to her lair, the four will arrange for her deportation in very short order to enjoy an eternity of suffering in the Abyss (or possibly her return to the City of Brass if that would be even crueller on her) but at that point their interest in things is likely to end. The phylactery and runes on the bridge or anything else going on is unlikely to interest them much. B will do the best to collect the pieces of the statue and arrange for them to be removed to a suitable residence and reassembled there if that's possible...
(concluding question)
Whatever's going on with the storm-lich will keep on going on, or at least with regard to A, B, C and D's involvement in things.
Rating:
Every last boggard in Killwater. Every last one, irrespective of combat status or direct involvement with the 'abduction' and smashing of the statue.
Any victims in Magnimar of the continuing hurricanes.