There's a couple problems with table 7-3 Trade Goods (p. 98) and table 7-9 Goods and Services (p. 113) that have existed since the start of 3.0 and never got fixed in 3.5 and it would be good if they were remedied in the Pathfinder RPG finally.
First off, table 7-3 Trade Goods lists one pound of iron going for 1 sp
while Table 7-9 Goods and Services lists a 10 lb. iron pot for the price of 5 sp. This math doesn't add up unless the king is subsidizing iron pots or else the blacksmiths are alloying their iron with cheaper metals.
Please either change the weight of the iron pot to 5 lbs or else change the price of the 10 lb pot to 1 gp.
The other trouble is the price of saffron in table 7-3 Trade Goods. It's listed as 15 gp per pound.
In the real world, the price of saffron is US$500/pound to US$5,000/pound. It's the pistils of rare crocuses which weigh hardly anything but are incredibly potent.
If you go by the 1st ed pricing for rare spices (1st ed DMG p. 27) you'll find rare spices listed as 1-4 sp a scruple. Even correcting for the half-weight of 1st ed sp (20 to 1 gp vs 10 to 1 gp), this comes to a far more realistic price, with 24 scruples to the ounce and 16 ounces to the pound, this comes to 19.2 gp to 76.8 gp per pound. Which is still probably low.
If you priced it at 5000 gp per pound, that would come out to about 13 gp a scruple, which is more on track with what someone would actually pay, given how potent it is. Moreover, it would give you a rare spice that would make sense as a spell component. After all, it currently takes 2500 gp worth of rare incense and other offerings to cast an Atonement. If saffron's 5000 gp per pound, that's a half pound of saffron vs. the current pricing, which would come to 166 & 2/3rds lbs, or the sinner's body weight in saffron.
Given the new costly material components as replacements for XP costs in spells, it would be good if there were something added to the trade goods table like
5000 gp One pound of saffron, ambergris or attar of roses
That would take care of the examples for rare herbs, rare unguents and rare perfumes now needed as costly spell components, and also give characters another sort of loot worth more than its weight in gold.
Dryads and pixies? I thought that the huge amounts of saffron came from giant crocuses which are pollinated by the giant bees you can fight sometimes.
And yes, the iron pots should probably cost more than their weight in iron. Unless the blacksmiths are using them as loss leaders or something.
Real world prices for substances don't always translate well into D&D prices. Real world prices are that way because of real world supply and demand (which is often artificially limited), real world protuction costs, and so on. Those factors need not be the same in a D&D world.
Plus, there's always the question of how much real world money a gold piece actually represents. I fear that until we get the GP value of a Big Mac, this question will forever remain unanswered.
As for the iron pot: That really is an anomaly. I could see something like allyoing, or the fact that even a pot made of pure, unalloyed iron isn't all iron (wooden handle and all that), but I'd say that the iron will be considerably more than half the weight, and that still doesn't include production costs.
I think this was never fixed because it doesn't really matter to your average D&D adventure, D&D adventurer, and D&D player.
I for one, never look too closely at the price columns in the general equipment section, have stopped requiring players to list their mundane gear long ago, and play almost exclusively characters that are more concerned with concepts like honour, glory, power, and obtaining items that equal or exceed the worth of small countries (which are for adventurers only, since normal people just couldn't afford the insurance, even if they found someone to sell them insurance for it)
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Real world prices for substances don't always translate well into D&D prices. Real world prices are that way because of real world supply and demand (which is often artificially limited), real world protuction costs, and so on. Those factors need not be the same in a D&D world.
Even though I agree with you in principle with this, it would be nice if there were some items listed in the trade columns that came close to representing items in the spell components section. I don't generally get nitpicky with item costs and weights with my players, but when the rarest herbs one can readily think are still cheap enough that it would require hundreds of pounds to cast a spell, it becomes important. Is the cleric REALLY carrying enough saffron to cast atonement? How much does "5000gp worth of diamond dust" weigh? These items are unimportant enough to ignore for most players, but it would take tens of seconds to update, it improve the realism for people who DO care, and would never be noticed by those who don't. I'll toss out my vote for a change.
I have to admit that, for flavor purposes, it would be difficult to picture a rich spice merchant NPC given the prices as listed. This has just been one of those sorts of things I fix myself. After all, none of the prices in the books are final. Ultimately it is the campaign world (read: DM) that determines the value of things. During wartime, iron will be at a premium. If local druids wreak vengeance on Vudran farmers, prices on certain spices will soar in Korvosa.
So, long story short, adjustment would be nice but not a priority for me.
Dude, the price list in D&D is so messed up it should be funny if it weren't so sad. The pot and ladder subsidies are just the two most obvious examples.
D&D assumed a "gold rush" situation for the adventuring environment. Weapons and general adventuring equipment pricing was inflated by a factor of 5-10 and armor pricing was inflated by 10-20. But the key to the inflated prices of the gold rush was not the presence of gold, it was the absence of supply. In the California gold rush the nearest cities from which food and tools could be imported were about 1000 miles away. In the Yukon gold rush the nearest city of any size was about 1000 miles away, accessible only by boat.
This was aggravated by making gold the functional monetary standard instead of silver, thereby making silver almost worthless for buying price-bloated armaments, not to mention magical items.
Second, spices were not outrageously expensive, ever. They were costly compared to the pitiful discretionary spending money available to peasantry. Only a few (saffron, maybe ambergris) were as valuable per pound as silver, most were about one tenth of that.
PS: Saffron in bulk (not packaged in fractions of a gram at a supermarket and then multiplied) is around $1500/lb.
This thread is ruining my cunning plan to have my Bard buy up pots, smelt them down into 1 lb. ingots and sell them back to the dwarves. I was going to be rich I tell, you rich!!! My new castle would be built out of compressed blocks of saffron!
Seriously--price problems can be trying in some circumstances, and it is something that it would be nice to see the publishers fix. But where else can you go to a message board and witness a disagreement about the price of saffron in bulk?
I LOVE THIS GAME!!!!
The silk road and the high-value-for-weight cargo it carried HAS to be worth a lot of money going from each end to the other or it is not remotely worth the hideous expense of making the arduos and lengthly trip. Even in D&D terms supply and demand HAS to be there to be worth it.
For example, using Golarion's map, why on earth would one risk the enormous expense of sailing from Mechitar in Geb all the way up to, say, Magnimar, if the load delivered does not pay truly handsomely in realizable profit? At a paltry 50 gp per pound for even the most valuable trade good - of which you can expect to sell it to those who will use it for just under 17 gp per round , thus you some how have to be able to acquire it for considerably less than that - the odds are you will be fortunate to break even when you factor in all of the costs. Crew labor, food and potable water, purchase of the ship, maintenance and repair of same ship, the innumerable bribes - whether called fees, taxes or what they are - and so on and so forth.
Overland caravans are even more costly - beasts of burden are not cheap, and they too must be fed and watered, cared for and kept healthy. So, one would have to have a truly rich financial incentive to undertake a caravan journey. Given Golarion's truly massive river system, I doubt that overland caravans are terribly long by comparison to 3,000+ mile journeys - at most I would not anticipate caravans of more than four or five hundred miles from navigable rivers, most probably are significantly shorter, perhaps 80 or 90 leagues capping at 100 leagues.
Merchant enterprises are fraught with risk of course - but they are undertaken for a reason, namely Profit.
I can handwave the ladder/pole discrepancy by saying the ladder is pine and the pole is oak. Hardwoods generally cost more than softwoods.
But the iron ingot/iron pot discrepancy is maddening.
Of course, a lot of things are mad here.
WIZARD: Hello, little peasant girl. I see you're selling a bouquet of wildflowers you picked in the forest. Those must be rare and precious wildflowers, don't you think? How much would you sell them for?
FLOWER GIRL: I was hoping for a copper piece, sir. Maybe two.
WIZARD: Well, I'm casting Legend Lore today, so I need 250 gold pieces worth of rare incense, so that's how much I'm paying. And not a gold piece less!
FLOWER GIRL: (dumbfounded)
WIZARD: Now I just need four pieces of ivory costing 50 gold each. At least I might be able to buy those as art objects, because if I have to buy them in bulk, I don't think my lumbago will be able to deal with carrying around tusks....
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HAHAHA that's classic!!!
I miss the old spell component rules...
I would also like to see required items on magic item creation instead "5000gp of stuff"
I also miss monster treasure...like the eye of a beholder...or a dragon's claw...
Those things made D&D better...I know they were abused when Computer games came out...especially Everquest...(haven't played WoW so I won't use that as an example.)
Quest: collect 10 fire beetle eyes. (but not every fire beetle had 1 eye, some had none...)
Turin...I agree completely...economics used to mean something in D&D. Back when you bought a cloak, boots, belt and breeches...instead of "Explorer's outfit" Man I loved outfitting my characters in clothing instead of outfit!
If you are looking for something a little closer to actual medieval economics you need to pretty much abandon what is featured in the PHB and DMG (and by extension the Pathfinder Beta). Other systems do feature close approximations of reality:
Hârn by Columbia Games
Chivalry & Sorcery now by Britannia Games Design
Mind you, these are not exactly simpler systems. Old C&S was a typical FGU game and cumbersome to the point of unplayability – but it had cool charts and tables!
CJ
I think it would be kinda cool to have a net project showing the main growing areas for certain spices, and having prices vary by distance...or maybe I'm just a little crazy...
The Atlas of Kalamar had some very cool maps showing exported items, weather patterns, and the historical migration of various tribes.
Something like that for Golarion would be very spiffy.
CJ
Turin...I agree completely...economics used to mean something in D&D. Back when you bought a cloak, boots, belt and breeches...instead of "Explorer's outfit" Man I loved outfitting my characters in clothing instead of outfit!
XD please don't! Oh well to late, that long dormant neuron just fired. Now I'm remembering the wizard player back in 2e who wore nothing but a single piece of underwear (that I gave him as gear for free).
I have been tempted to generate a GIS around a fantasy world map...
The Atlas of Kalamar had some very cool maps showing exported items, weather patterns, and the historical migration of various tribes.
Likewise for the Greyhawk boxed set.
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Turin...I agree completely...economics used to mean something in D&D. Back when you bought a cloak, boots, belt and breeches...instead of "Explorer's outfit" Man I loved outfitting my characters in clothing instead of outfit!XD please don't! Oh well to late, that long dormant neuron just fired. Now I'm remembering the wizard player back in 2e who wore nothing but a single piece of underwear (that I gave him as gear for free).
I have been tempted to generate a GIS around a fantasy world map...
Too funny, shoulda sent him to a nice cold location...in a magic dead area...that'd learn him! frostbite!!!
Expeditious Retreat Press has done a couple of useful books on the very subjects I raised: A Magical Medievel Society and - if I remember the title correctly - (the same): The Silk Road. Great stuff to use for d20 3e D&D. ^_^
And yes, I recall those strong elements of Ye Olde Days as well, when loot involved wierd item descriptions. Quite a bit of that can be found in the Adventure Paths as well, if you look closely ... and don't sell 'em off for "stuff" to make your Belt of Gawdly Strength +85.
Just sayin'...
How much does "5000gp worth of diamond dust" weigh?
Depends entirely on how rare diamonds are in that particular campaign world. In one world, a single tiny diamond might be worth 5000gp because wizards have been grinding diamonds for material components for millenia and there aren't many left. In another, you might need a whole bucketful of diamonds because they're created by genie wish farms.
Generally speaking, as far as I recall a gem of the 'standard' (or average) gp value is 1 carat weight of valuable rock, with 144 carats-weight equalling one pound. So, if you're not lucky, you're looking at 1 pound of cruddy 25gp gems being worth 3,600 gp. If you're toting diamonds at an average value of 5,000 gp per carat, you're looking at REAL money: 720,000 gp. Or, more cash worth that the entire gear allowance of any player character is supposed to be in 3rd edition before around ... 20th level or so.
One of the problems I have with most fantasy settings is the constantly replenishing sources of minerals.
Take some place like Varisia for example. Varisia was occupied by the Thassolonians for a reasonably long time and after that presumably by giant-kin successor kingdoms. While there might not be much civilization there now (outside Korvosa and Magnimar) – folks have lived in this area for a long time. As such any easily accessible minerals would be long gone. There would be no gold in them thar’ hills.
I’m not just wondering where all that gold in the dragon’s hoard came from – I’m wondering who mined and minted it…
In a similar vein – most pre-industrial methods of agriculture quickly render arable lands barren requiring centuries to become verdant once more. Sure you can hypothesize intervention by nature deities and druids would quickly restore lands – but is that really practical? At what point does this become silly?
I think this only relates to the theme of this thread in that after 10000 years of constant human (or near human) habitation there would be a serious scarcity of minerals not already turned into something.
CJ
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One of the problems I have with most fantasy settings is the constantly replenishing sources of minerals.
Take some place like Varisia for example. Varisia was occupied by the Thassolonians for a reasonably long time and after that presumably by giant-kin successor kingdoms. While there might not be much civilization there now (outside Korvosa and Magnimar) – folks have lived in this area for a long time. As such any easily accessible minerals would be long gone. There would be no gold in them thar’ hills.
I’m not just wondering where all that gold in the dragon’s hoard came from – I’m wondering who mined and minted it…
In a similar vein – most pre-industrial methods of agriculture quickly render arable lands barren requiring centuries to become verdant once more. Sure you can hypothesize intervention by nature deities and druids would quickly restore lands – but is that really practical? At what point does this become silly?
I think this only relates to the theme of this thread in that after 10000 years of constant human (or near human) habitation there would be a serious scarcity of minerals not already turned into something.
CJ
You're assuming that gods of earth, forges, etc. don't magically replenish minerals in the same way druids and nature gods magically replenish the land.
There's also elemental plane leakage to fill the empty pockets.
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On the topic of iron pots...If memory serves the iron used to make pots and pans (and stoves and wheel hubs etc) is cast iron. The 1sp/lb iron is more likely wrought iron. Wrought iron can be easily welded, and alloyed and can be used to make steel, cast iron cannot without further refining which would likely raise its cost to 1sp/lb. Cast iron has many useful properties, purity is not one of them.
What we're talking, if we're talking anything near middle ages, is a very small cauldron. In South African parlance, a potjie, the African relative of what in the US became the Dutch oven.
http://www.ez-gas.com/index.php?pr=Potjie_Pots
The smallest regular size, a #1, weighs 12 pounds. I've got a #3 myself, which weighs 25 lbs, and is somewhat more practical for cooking a one-pot dinner for a gang of gamers or adventurers.
They go up in size from there until you get ones suitable for stewing antelope, missionaries or beholders--the classic supersize witches cauldron or cannibal cookpot.
As for how much one should cost, assuming a 10 lb iron pot and assuming a value on iron of 1 sp per lb, a 10 lb pot requires 1 gp worth of iron and should retail for three times that. So a fair price for a 10 lb iron pot is 3 gp, especially since it's listed on the difficulty chart as the "typical" example and requires no great skill to make.
stuff
Well if those kingdoms existed 10,000+ years ago, they could have been buried again by time (think dinosaurs) and natural disasters. In those cases digging in the right spots could land a lot of high quality metals.
Also with as long as dragons live, who's to say they didn't get those coins from the old kingdoms in the first place?
Generally speaking, as far as I recall a gem of the 'standard' (or average) gp value is 1 carat weight of valuable rock, with 144 carats-weight equalling one pound. So, if you're not lucky, you're looking at 1 pound of cruddy 25gp gems being worth 3,600 gp. If you're toting diamonds at an average value of 5,000 gp per carat, you're looking at REAL money: 720,000 gp. Or, more cash worth that the entire gear allowance of any player character is supposed to be in 3rd edition before around ... 20th level or so.
1 carat is 3 grains, roughly 2,270 to a pound.
Generally speaking, as far as I recall a gem of the 'standard' (or average) gp value is 1 carat weight of valuable rock, with 144 carats-weight equalling one pound. So, if you're not lucky, you're looking at 1 pound of cruddy 25gp gems being worth 3,600 gp. If you're toting diamonds at an average value of 5,000 gp per carat, you're looking at REAL money: 720,000 gp. Or, more cash worth that the entire gear allowance of any player character is supposed to be in 3rd edition before around ... 20th level or so.1 carat is 3 grains, roughly 2,270 to a pound.
O.o
Wow ...
I think my weight per pound was from a game source - in other words, we may not want some schlub hauling around a minimum of 56,750 gp for a mere pound of encumbrance. (1 pound-weight of 25 gp gems)
'Sides, I *like* the idea that the 500,000 gp rubies from the 2e module Mines of Bloodstone weigh in at ... urm, nevermind. A 100 pound ruby would be a skosh too large methinks. Like, 2 cubic feet+ too big. They'd still mass in at roughly a VERY respectful half of a pound each. O.o
Now THAT is some money!
I'm thinking given the proliferation of diamonds as such a prominent material component that some thought needs to be given as to where they are mined from in Golarion...
Well, the value of gems isn't based just on the size but the quality. A one-carat flawless emerald is worth more than a one-carat flawless diamond because emeralds are prone to flaws, and a flawless emerald is rarer than a flawless diamond.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I think the iron pots listed are actually used chamber pots. You can get the stink out but nobody feels comfortable paying full price for them. A new iron pot is going to cost you 10 times more.
EDIT: Oh, and the merchants have been throwing pebbles into the bottom of the saffron pouches for so long that the price has been adjusted to account for the added weight.
One of the problems I have with most fantasy settings is the constantly replenishing sources of minerals.
<snip>
I think this only relates to the theme of this thread in that after 10000 years of constant human (or near human) habitation there would be a serious scarcity of minerals not already turned into something.
CJ
Humans have inhabited the Earth for 10,000 years, and we've not run out of minable minerals yet - and without the benefit of an Underdark/Darklands to dramatically increase the dwellable/minable area of the world, at that.
Not to mention that, in Thassilon, it's quite possible that it was cheaper to magically create minerals (wall of iron is an instantaneous spell, for example) than to mine them.
CJ
Humans have inhabited the Earth for 10,000 years, and we've not run out of minable minerals yet - and without the benefit of an Underdark/Darklands to dramatically increase the dwellable/minable area of the world, at that.
Not to mention that, in Thassilon, it's quite possible that it was cheaper to magically create minerals (wall of iron is an instantaneous spell, for example) than to mine them.
Plus, Golarion has a severe meteor impact recently. Apart from all the minerals and metals in the meteor itself, the impact raised mountains, drained seas, reshaped the land etc. giving access to new mineral deposits.
I would imagine that a large part of the trade in gems comes from the svirf...snirv...swerv....deep gnomes who can supply the super wonderful size and quality gems that wizards need for their crafting.