I generally only allow leveling to occur when the characters are resting.
Is this normal? I see mention of characters leveling in the middle of dungeons, like half-way through thistle top. Do you let your characters level immediately after the combat that won them the XP to level?
Thanks,
IMarv
I let characters level up without resting, but I generally don't let them level up in the middle of a game session, as everything grinds to a halt while the players look for their new feats, spells, etc.
I usually figure out experience after the session ends and then email the players to let them know if their characters leveled up. If they did, they just show up at the next session with an updated character sheet.
My feeling is that it's just easier to let PCs level up without requiring rest or training, unless you're willing to have your campaign heavily influenced by the time the PCs put into trekking out of the dungeon, sleeping, and then wading back in. Leveling up is a pretty artificial part of the game, that doesn't always mesh neatly with the storytelling aspect, so I tend to handwave my way through it, rather than spend a ton of time trying to meld it in seamlessly.
That said, if a PC makes a point of seeking out a mentor and roleplaying training and attempts to better himself, I'll give him some extra XP for it.
CR
Hi IMarv,
I've done away with XP in my game, so I generally let my PCs level up whenever I think it's appropriate. Sometimes that's when they rest, but sometimes it's before a big fight (if I think they need the extra power boost).
|
I generally only allow leveling to occur when the characters are resting.
Is this normal? I see mention of characters leveling in the middle of dungeons, like half-way through thistle top. Do you let your characters level immediately after the combat that won them the XP to level?
Thanks,
IMarv
I let characters level up things like Saves, HP, attack bonuses, and number of spells. I don't allow learning of new spells, skills or feats until the group sleeps.
I let characters level up things like Saves, HP, attack bonuses, and number of spells. I don't allow learning of new spells, skills or feats until the group sleeps.I generally only allow leveling to occur when the characters are resting.
Is this normal? I see mention of characters leveling in the middle of dungeons, like half-way through thistle top. Do you let your characters level immediately after the combat that won them the XP to level?
Thanks,
IMarv
Same here.
I let characters level up things like Saves, HP, attack bonuses, and number of spells. I don't allow learning of new spells, skills or feats until the group sleeps.I generally only allow leveling to occur when the characters are resting.
Is this normal? I see mention of characters leveling in the middle of dungeons, like half-way through thistle top. Do you let your characters level immediately after the combat that won them the XP to level?
Thanks,
IMarvSame here.
I depends on the game I want. In a structured AP with a definitive timeline such as CotCT or SD for instance (and even RotRL) leveling when they rest for "long periods of time" ie when they go to town to rest up and get new stuff, or get someone raised or replaced is when I would do it. However in my homebrew which is less focused on timed plots I want to get to that realism of training and such and have my own house rules that cover it. But thats because I feel that in a story driven game that doesn't have the world end in x days if the pcs don't interfere rainijng and such make more sense and helps better integrate the pcs and what not. But that's just me. Overall most DMs I know or have played with hand out XP at the end of the night and if you can level you do it before the next game or that night.
|
|
I let characters level up things like Saves, HP, attack bonuses, and number of spells. I don't allow learning of new spells, skills or feats until the group sleeps.
Of note: If I think a level-up will be important for survival (Such as the end of PF#2), I will tell the group to write up a sheet during the week of their character after the level up, and just switch out character sheets when they level. Anyone forgetting to provide a leveled up character sheet goes by my statement in the quote.
|
I generally only allow leveling to occur when the characters are resting.
Is this normal? I see mention of characters leveling in the middle of dungeons, like half-way through thistle top. Do you let your characters level immediately after the combat that won them the XP to level?
Thanks,
IMarv
For my previous campaign, I gave out XP at the end of the session so that leveling happened between sessions (whether resting or not).
For my current STAP Campaign, I hand out XP after each encounter. If they gain enough XP to level it, happens immediately (without resting). Everyone updates their character sheet right at the table, but it generally doesn't take more than 10 or so minutes. I use a leveling form that the players all fill out for their next level. Class, skills, feats, ability score increases, spells and all the stuff that requires a conscious decision is already filled out on the form between sessions; they just transfer it over to their character sheets and we roll HP's. I also allow them immediate access to new skills, feats, spells, and class abilities. My assumption is the character has been practicing or trying to get the new thing right. It finally clicks when they level.
For my next campaign (Star Wars Saga Edition, Dawn of Defiance), we're going XP-less. We'll probably level in the middle of the session and at the end.
-Skeld
I award XP immediately after the fight, and the characters advance as soon as they hit the XP mark - but things you have to prepare (i.e. new spell slots) are only available after the rest (saves, feats, skills, etc. improve at once, though).
|
I let characters level up things like Saves, HP, attack bonuses, and number of spells. I don't allow learning of new spells, skills or feats until the group sleeps.
Now you see, I just love the idea of the sorcerer or wizard who has been running a spell for days, and not getting it, and then, under the pressure of the big fight, it comes, pooft, and the BBEG seriously regrets it......
That can equate to levelling just before a big fight...I tend to do XP after a session in real life, but after a fight in pbps....The only thing that doesn't happen as normal is that the added HP get added to your *current* total, you don't rest back to full HP with the new score...you have to rest for that...
|
Leveling occurs occurs after a gaming session for me. It allows plays to develop their characters between sessions. I get them to role new hps straight after XP.
Used to let PCs track their own XP but seeing how "errors" occur with totals, the PC are now in the dark with their XP totals. I tell them if or when they go up and if they incur I can respond with a vague notion like.. lots, a bit or you are close... my favourate is that you will make level soon.
I try to remove the distractor of XP from players so they can focus on the game. If a character wants to do some freaky stuff like prestiage class or a variant or special class (militant cleric or Academe trained figher) if they have not done in game actions or experiences I will not let them do until it has happened in game.
You rest, you level.
To date I have only run one campaign long enough to have a "norm." In this case, I did away with XP and levelled the characters where it best made sense during the story. Since I was running the Shackled City Adventure Path rather than something a bit more freeform, this worked out well.
There were some snags though, for instance crafting became much easier for the group. They crafted a LOT of stuff. Since I was tracking wealth levels as well and they kept falling behind I don't think the crafting had a negative impact on this campaign, but it is possible that it could in others.
I have brought it up with my group that I would like to reincorporate XP in my next campaign which will be Rise of the Runelords. Immediately the response was that there is no way they would craft anything. In my mind, doing the math, this is a foolish stance but this group has seemed to be more superstitious and intuititive than logical.
So now I am unsure... maybe I will use the crafting point system from Unearthed Arcana. On the other hand, I did have the cleric in the last campaign who rarely crafted at all... not because of penalties but because it was too much work to figure out the system... crafting rules seem to add to that complexity.
For now I think I will just go back to the vanilla rules for both XP and crafting and see how things work. My group doesn't really want to sit and discuss things so I can't get feedback from them. They just want to play and not worry about anything else.
<sigh>
Sean Mahoney
You rest, you level.
Wow! A level a day keeps the doctors away.
my party level's up as soon as they get the XP and since everything stops as they level up that is the time we use to bring out the munchies cook what needs cooked take smoke breaks not that i approve of smoking an the like so a level up spot is a good place to enjoy your friends
I have brought it up with my group that I would like to reincorporate XP in my next campaign which will be Rise of the Runelords. Immediately the response was that there is no way they would craft anything. In my mind, doing the math, this is a foolish stance but this group has seemed to be more superstitious and intuititive than logical.
Even if you are running 3.5, it might be worth checking out the crafting rules in the Pathfinder Beta (found in the Magic Items web enhancement). I can't remember the details off hand but I am 99.9% sure that they got rid of spending XP to create items.
I had a question about levels in the adventure paths that I think this thread has answered, but I thought I'd better ask anyway.
The first chapter says it's for levels 1 to 3. The 2nd chapter says it's for levels 4-6. Does that mean that the first chapter has enough battle, puzzles, role playing goals etc to bring 4 characters from 1st level all the way to 4th level? Or do I need to build home made side quest to bring their XP up to the correct number?
As far as when we level up, I'm an old school D&D blue box and AD&D 1.0 guy and I still like the old Gygax concept that leveling up is what happens when you take time out to study, practice, and reflect on what you've learned. That just feels better than saying "OK, you have enough points so when you wake up this morning you suddenly feel stronger, tougher, faster, and you realize you can deal more damage than you did last night." The former process feels more real to me while the latter feels a bit like a video game. I really want to avoid having my game feeling like it has "power ups" and "save points".
So I like to at least have a point in the story where I can say something like "It's been a quiet week at Falcon's Hollow and you've been able to spend time practicing with your sword. Back when you were battling the monsters at the Dwarven monastery you realized that your backhand slashes were feeling really awkward. So you decided to practice that move in order to become a better fighter with smoother transitions from forward slashes to backhand slashes. There's a small oak tree outside the town limits that you used as your practice dummy. It received the brunt of your practice blows and will likely never bear another acorn, much less remain standing after the next storm. You've gained one level."
The first chapter says it's for levels 1 to 3. The 2nd chapter says it's for levels 4-6. Does that mean that the first chapter has enough battle, puzzles, role playing goals etc to bring 4 characters from 1st level all the way to 4th level? Or do I need to build home made side quest to bring their XP up to the correct number?
I'm not totally sure, but I think the numbers meshed quite well with our experience (and yes, that pun was intended). It might be off a bit here and there (you might get to the recommended level a couple of encounters into the adventure now and again), but all in all, you should be fine (and if not, grant story awards in addition to the regular encounter XP)
As far as when we level up, I'm an old school D&D blue box and AD&D 1.0 guy and I still like the old Gygax concept that leveling up is what happens when you take time out to study, practice, and reflect on what you've learned. That just feels better than saying "OK, you have enough points so when you wake up this morning you suddenly feel stronger, tougher, faster, and you realize you can deal more damage than you did last night." The former process feels more real to me while the latter feels a bit like a video game. I really want to avoid having my game feeling like it has "power ups" and "save points".
It does feel like a game - not necessarily video game, but game nonetheless.
But that's because it is a game.
I prefer instant level advancement, and for good reason: Levels, as well as attack bonuses, armour classes, save bonuses, save DCs, and basically every stat in the game is an abstraction.
Of course the fighter doesn't feel the same for fight after fight when suddenly, after the 13 goblin he killed, he becomes a lot stronger, hardier, and so on. But unless you have a computer to manage all those stats for you, "actual" stats are not very practical. You can't let your fighter's attack power advance, say, by 0.004 with every attack. The dice would be even weirder than they're now, for one thing.
So the game uses approximations. The fighter's "actual" attack bonus might be 4.9 before the fight and advance by 0.1 during the fight, but in game terms, I only consider whole numbers. That means from one fight to the next, his attack bonus will go up from 4 to 5.
As for new abilities: He tries them all the time, keeps training them and trying them, but at the moment he actually gains them, he has become good enough at them that he can consistently use them.
On the other hand, the training part never made sense to me: You want to tell me that with all those fights I fought, I never became hardier (i.e. my HP stayed the same 34), but after that it only took me a day in a gym with some fop teacher to become a lot tougher (i.e. HP raised to 42). Why couldn't I train in between and get 2 of those 8 HD one evening?
Plus, unless you pace your adventures accordingly, leveling might become impossible in many situations. "No, sorry, my queen, we can do nothing about this plague that kills people within seven days, because I must hit the gym, and my pointy-hatted, jammy-wearing friend here must sequester himself in the library." just doesn't cut it for me.
So I like to at least have a point in the story where I can say something like "It's been a quiet week at Falcon's Hollow and you've been able to spend time practicing with your sword. Back when you were battling the monsters at the Dwarven monastery you realized that your backhand slashes were feeling really awkward. So you decided to practice that move in order to become a better fighter with smoother transitions from forward slashes to backhand slashes. There's a small oak tree outside the town limits that you used as your practice dummy. It received the brunt of your practice blows and will likely never bear another acorn, much less remain standing after the next storm. You've gained one level."
That's another problem I have with that method: You find out that your backhand slashes suck, and you do nothing about it until days or even weeks after? You're lucky that you survived that blunder once, might not be you survive it twice, so better make sure you don't repeat that error. That's what experience really is: Learning from your mistakes. Not repeating them until you think about it a week when nothing much is going on. Life might never give you that slow week, at least not until your project has tanked and the boss is having your head for dinner.
|
|
I've been running AP's for the last while, and basically I give out XP when a "part" is done. So if the next thing they do is "Part 5", regardless of rest, fighting or in the middle of a dungeon. When I run my own stuff (or if there aren't parts), then usually at the end of a level on a dungeon or when I want them to level.
It does feel like a game - not necessarily video game, but game nonetheless.
But that's because it is a game.
I prefer instant level advancement, and for good reason: Levels, as well as attack bonuses, armour classes, save bonuses, save DCs, and basically every stat in the game is an abstraction.
Of course the fighter doesn't feel the same for fight after fight when suddenly, after the 13 goblin he killed, he becomes a lot stronger, hardier, and so on. But unless you have a computer to manage all those stats for you, "actual" stats are not very practical. You can't let your fighter's attack power advance, say, by 0.004 with every attack. The dice would be even weirder than they're now, for one thing.
So the game uses approximations. The fighter's "actual" attack bonus might be 4.9 before the fight and advance by 0.1 during the fight, but in game terms, I only consider whole numbers. That means from one fight to the next, his attack bonus will go up from 4 to 5.
As for new abilities: He tries them all the time, keeps training them and trying them, but at the moment he actually gains them, he has become good enough at them that he can consistently use them.
On the other hand, the training part never made sense to me: You want to tell me that with all those fights I fought, I never became hardier (i.e. my HP stayed the same 34), but after that it only took me a day in a gym with some fop teacher to become a lot tougher (i.e. HP raised to 42). Why couldn't I train in between and get 2 of those 8 HD one evening?
Plus, unless you pace your adventures accordingly, leveling might become impossible in many situations. "No, sorry, my queen, we can do nothing about this plague that kills people within seven days, because I must hit the gym, and my pointy-hatted, jammy-wearing friend here must sequester himself in the library." just doesn't cut it for me.
This. You're playing a game. Experience points represent you learning and growing from your adventures. Your character is actually improving constantly, at a relatively steady rate, but you only level him up every once in a while to make that concept of progression manageable for you as a player. Requiring you to take time off to train is, I think, missing the point.
That's another problem I have with that method: You find out that your backhand slashes suck, and you do nothing about it until days or even weeks after? You're lucky that you survived that blunder once, might not be you survive it twice, so better make sure you don't repeat that error. That's what experience really is: Learning from your mistakes. Not repeating them until you think about it a week when nothing much is going on. Life might never give you that slow week, at least not until your project has tanked and the boss is having your head for dinner.
I view it as : when you were adventuring you were too busy trying to grab some gold, battle the monsters, rescue the girl and not die in the process. ;)
When you have "down time" then you have time to train, study new spells, etc. I think Gygax's original idea was to somehow explain the sudden jump in stats and new spells (which is much easier to handle from a game play perspective than a gradual, continuous growth of experience and is therefore easier to manage as a DM) by giving a story based reason on why you needed to take take time to train. It certainly gives an excuse for the sudden knowledge of new spells by spell casters (I almost said "Magic Users". I still keep forgetting and refer to "rogues" as "thieves".)
But then again, that's just me and the way I play the game based on my initial experience with AD&D. I think it's kind of cool how different people can run different style games based on the same rules. It really shows how different people have different ways of telling a story and the game system can adapt to those different styles.
|
Generally, when my players are close to reaching a new level, they plan in advance what feats, spells, etc. they are going to take. Then when they get the required points, they start using the new stats. We subscribe to the idea that a character is working on acquiring those new abilities all along, but they finally have mastered them when they acquire enough points. I'm not terribly consistent about when I award the points. After a major story event, I give out points. I definitely hand them out at the end of the gaming session, but I don't hand them out after every battle.
I view it as : when you were adventuring you were too busy trying to grab some gold, battle the monsters, rescue the girl and not die in the process. ;)
Yeah, but see: You can't grab any gold or rescue the girl because you will die in the process unless you improve all the time. One time you do a clumsy backhand slash you might be lucky, but don't count that luck to hold a whole week of solid dungeon crawling. :P
You learn from experience. You gain experience from combat. Ergo: you learn from combat. And that's especially true for combat experience.
When you have "down time" then you have time to train, study new spells, etc. I think Gygax's original idea was to somehow explain the sudden jump in stats and new spells
I understand that. I just think that my explanation works better - especially for me. I understand that it's a game, and the stats are abstractions. I can suspend my disbelief that somehow the gradual experience is turned into a series of leaps and bounds.
Plus, in the end of the day, I have to suspend disbelief with the training way, too. I can get new spells, and kinda agree with attack bonuses, but HP? You tell me I have to train to survive more attacks? That surviving all those attacks isn't the best training for that? And how can you train using stuff like diplomacy by any means other than actually using them?
Plus, it limits me as a GM in the kind of adveture to run. For example, I cannot relentlessly hunt and harass my players for more than a couple of days before they start to make plans about lynching me because they have missed the second level-up due to lack of training time.
(I almost said "Magic Users". I still keep forgetting and refer to "rogues" as "thieves".)
I don't mind magic user - though I'd use it more as a general term for wizards and sorcerers and other primary arcane spellcasters. But I have to tell you: arcanist sounds better to me.
But thief... I always hated that. I have played plenty of characters with that class, in 2e and 3e, but very few, maybe none, of them were thieves. There were assassins, adventurers, spies, infiltrators, scouts, dungeon delvers, swindlers.... but very, very few of them ever broke into buildings with the sole purpose of stealing things, or took others' purses or whatever.
But the discrimination they had to endure because people called, and thought of them as, thieves.