The primary advantage of this magic item is to save money. It takes a significant wizard cost (100gp per spell level) and cuts it by 90% or more. It has a place in a campaign where magic items cannot be readily purchased, but in the standard campaign it completely trivializes a significant wizard expense. So much so in fact that it is an essential item for any wizard that makes it to even mid-level.
Either the cost of scribing spells is supposed to be a balancing factor or it's not. I suggest one of two solutions....
Reduce the cost of scribing spells into a spell book to 10 gold per page (it effectively is anyway with this item in the game).
OR
Reduce the cost of the Blessed Book (2 to 5k) and remove the cost savings of scribing spells into it. It would maintain it's utility (storing many spells in a small easily carried item) but would no longer eliminate spell scribing costs.
it [A Blessed Book] is an essential item for any wizard that makes it to even mid-level.
Well... why is a nonslotted item being essential to have a problem?
-Matt
As far as I am concerned, just having to tote around a book full of my class' primary class feature is already a severe enough hardship.
Theft, vandalism, sundering, capture/imprisonment, and other means of removing the wizard's spellbook can totally cripple him for an entire adventure.
No other class is so vulnerable to losing 95% of their usefulness to a single misfortune, often entirely out of their control.
So wizards resort to tricks. Interdimensional pockets to carry/hide the spellbook, taking the Spell Mastery feat (so 95% uselessness becomes 85% uselessness if he loses his book).
These tricks are nothing more than an additional "tax" on wizard - he must do these things or he risks being turned into a common useless villager in the blink of an unlucky eye.
Why do we also tax him to spend his own gold to utilize his primary class feature?
Maybe a glib wizard can convince his friends to chip in, to fork over the gold before dividing it into shares, but that just means the wizard is asking his companions to share the "tax".
No other class is asked to burden himself or his friends to use his class features.
For me, I would be fine with trivializing the cost. A couple gold for a vial of ink and a handful of gold for the book, and he is set.
Sounds like 2 votes for option 1 to me. If every wizard has to get the item in order to remove what is felt to be an onerous penalty, just lessen the cost and cut down on the mandatory magic item cheese.
Question: Is it cheaper to buy a Blessed Book and fill it than to scribe a Blessed Book full of spells into a regular spellbook?
Because if the magic item is more expensive than the mundane method, it's not trivializing anything.
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The book is fine. It takes 120 spell levels worth to even be worth the price (which is a LOT of spells) or even about 63 if you craft it. Still quite a bit before you effectively 'get your money's worth'.
Wizards have been screwed in terms of acquiring spells for a long time (clerics and druids getting access to their WHOLE list for free). Let them have their 'upgrade'.
Question: Is it cheaper to buy a Blessed Book and fill it than to scribe a Blessed Book full of spells into a regular spellbook?
Because if the magic item is more expensive than the mundane method, it's not trivializing anything.
Cost to buy the Book and scribe it full of spells....12,500gp.
Cost to scribe a Blessed Book worth of spells into a regular spell book....100,000gp.
Does that answer your question?
The book is fine. It takes 120 spell levels worth to even be worth the price (which is a LOT of spells) or even about 63 if you craft it. Still quite a bit before you effectively 'get your money's worth'.
Wizards have been screwed in terms of acquiring spells for a long time (clerics and druids getting access to their WHOLE list for free). Let them have their 'upgrade'.
Well, when exactly the break even point is going to occur will certainly vary from campaign to campaign (and from wizard to wizard) but it is undeniably true that at some point in EVERY wizard's career, they'd be a fool not to pick up the Blessed Book. For that reason alone I think it deserves a look. No magic item should be required for every character of a particular class.
As for the cleric/druid spell availability advantage, that should have been changed in the switch from 2nd to 3rd edition if you ask me...but it's clearly not going to see a change. Perhaps that's another argument for lowering spell scribing costs across the board?
I agree with you Shadowlance and would choose option 1: lower scribing costs.
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The book is fine. It takes 120 spell levels worth to even be worth the price (which is a LOT of spells) or even about 63 if you craft it. Still quite a bit before you effectively 'get your money's worth'.
Wizards have been screwed in terms of acquiring spells for a long time (clerics and druids getting access to their WHOLE list for free). Let them have their 'upgrade'.
Well, when exactly the break even point is going to occur will certainly vary from campaign to campaign (and from wizard to wizard) but it is undeniably true that at some point in EVERY wizard's career, they'd be a fool not to pick up the Blessed Book. For that reason alone I think it deserves a look. No magic item should be required for every character of a particular class.
As for the cleric/druid spell availability advantage, that should have been changed in the switch from 2nd to 3rd edition if you ask me...but it's clearly not going to see a change. Perhaps that's another argument for lowering spell scribing costs across the board?
I've had a few wizards that never bought the book. 120 spell levels (or 63) is a LOT of spells. Some wizards that only scribed in an extra 1-2 spells per level never bothered to get it.
So...not a necessity.
Cost to buy the Book and scribe it full of spells....12,500gp.
Cost to scribe a Blessed Book worth of spells into a regular spell book....100,000gp.
Does that answer your question?
Yes.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Honestly, I don't see any reason a Wizard should be charged any financial amount (other than the cost of ink and paper) to add a new spell to his spellbook. Asking a character to fork over 100 gp every time he encounters a new spell seems a little extreme.
Our group has house-ruled away the scribing cost for years, and it's never been an issue with us. We've always said that as long as the Wizard has access to ink and paper, he can scribe spells in his spellbook for free and we've never run into any concerns regarding game imbalance, nor has any other player "cried foul" for waving away this restriction.
Question: Is it cheaper to buy a Blessed Book and fill it than to scribe a Blessed Book full of spells into a regular spellbook?
Because if the magic item is more expensive than the mundane method, it's not trivializing anything.
Cost to buy the Book and scribe it full of spells....12,500gp.
Cost to scribe a Blessed Book worth of spells into a regular spell book....100,000gp.
Does that answer your question?
Not entirely accurate. You aren't charged for the automatic two spells per level that a wizard gets, which add up to a considerable number of pages - 220 + starting int bonus + number of cantrips available in all your splat books, to be exact, assuming you inscribe the highest spell level possible every time. And, if you're using splats, Collegiate Wizard (feat from Complete Arcane) doubles that to 440 + starting int bonus + cantrips. Also, I have never heard of anyone filling up a blessed book.
The main draw of blessed books, IMO, is the fact that they have more than 100 pages. 100 is an awfully small number when it takes 1 page per spell level.
The spell that the blessed book is based on, secret page, also allows Wizards to eliminate the scribing cost of their spells.
Secret Page
School transmutation; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
casting
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (powdered herring scales and will-o’-
wisp essence)
effect
Range touch
Target page touched, up to 3 sq. ft. in size
Duration permanent
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
description
Secret page alters the contents of a page so that it appears
to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be
changed to show even another spell. Explosive runes or sepia
snake sigil can be cast upon the secret page.
A comprehend languages spell alone cannot reveal a secret
page’s contents. You are able to reveal the original contents
by speaking a special word. You can then peruse the actual
page and return it to its secret page form at will. You can also
remove the spell by double repetition of the special word. A
detect magic spell reveals dim magic on the page in question
but does not reveal its true contents. True seeing reveals
the presence of the hidden material but does not reveal
the contents unless cast in combination with comprehend
languages. A secret page spell can be dispelled, and the hidden
writings can be destroyed by means of an erase spell.
So, any caster capable of casting a third level transmutation spell can use the exact same effect, for the cost of a third level spellslot. Just making a wand of secret page allows the wizard to scribe 50 spell levels for 11,250 gp at market cost, and I could see some virtue in slapping comprehend languages, secret page, and other writing related spells into a staff, which could be recharged.
In short, the blessed book is a fairly limited spell in a can. I do not see the reason to be upset over it, when there is not equivalent concern over the spell it is based on. It might be reasonable to tweak the price a little, as the wand of secret page is a weak comparison to the blessed book, and I think that might need to be shuffled around a bit.
I'd also agree with Option 1 (re-pricing Spell Scribing to be cheaper for everyone), which would remove the "Economic" benefit of Blessed Book, making it only exist for the convenience of having many more pages than a normal spell book (and thus should probably cost less).
Honestly, I think scribing costs, which have been discussed, exhaustively, in earlier portions of the playtest, could possibly use some review, particularly for spells up to 4th level.
But, the Blessed Book, at 12,500 gp, is most cost comparable to 1000 charges from a wand of secret page, which costs 225,000 gp. There is no real way to compare these costs, and suggests that the Blessed Book might be grossly underpriced.
But, the Blessed Book, at 12,500 gp, is most cost comparable to 1000 charges from a wand of secret page, which costs 225,000 gp. There is no real way to compare these costs, and suggests that the Blessed Book might be grossly underpriced.
Well, 1,000 charges of Secret Page, plus a bag-of-holding variant to hold 10 ordinary spellbooks. (Like an Efficient Quiver for Wizards.)
Secret Page
*snip*So, any caster capable of casting a third level transmutation spell can use the exact same effect, for the cost of a third level spellslot. Just making a wand of secret page allows the wizard to scribe 50 spell levels for 11,250 gp at market cost, and I could see some virtue in slapping comprehend languages, secret page, and other writing related spells into a staff, which could be recharged.
In short, the blessed book is a fairly limited spell in a can. I do not see the reason to be upset over it, when there is not equivalent concern over the spell it is based on. It might be reasonable to tweak the price a little, as the wand of...
Words cannot describe how much I'm not interested in getting into a debate about how a spell can be used....however, I'm not sure how that spell's text can be reasonably interpreted to remove scribing costs of a spell. This, of course, is a separate issue from my original post but I was so befuddled that I felt the need to ask.
Honestly, I think scribing costs, which have been discussed, exhaustively, in earlier portions of the playtest, could possibly use some review, particularly for spells up to 4th level.
But, the Blessed Book, at 12,500 gp, is most cost comparable to 1000 charges from a wand of secret page, which costs 225,000 gp. There is no real way to compare these costs, and suggests that the Blessed Book might be grossly underpriced.
Hm... however the blessed book is completely "used up" once full (not meaning the wizard can't still prepare from it, but that he can't use it's special ability anymore, namely the cheaper spell rate) and it can only be used on itself. The wand can be used on anything the spell can be used on, works exactly like the spell (which the book does not).
Crafting a wand or staff requires casting the spell a number of times equal to the charges. Why doesn't crafting of Blessed Book require 1000 castings of Secret Page? And are there any Will o'Wisps left in the multiverse after so many generations of wizards had them hunted down by the hundreds for all those castings?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Crafting a wand or staff requires casting the spell a number of times equal to the charges. Why doesn't crafting of Blessed Book require 1000 castings of Secret Page? And are there any Will o'Wisps left in the multiverse after so many generations of wizards had them hunted down by the hundreds for all those castings?
I don't think this is true. Crafting any magic item requires casting the required spells once per day of crafting. So, if you craft a wand of cure light wounds, it takes 1 day and you need to use the spell up once to get the 50 charges in the wand. Of course, with the new crafting rules, you can not even have the spell at all if you make a higher crafting check.
Straybow is channelling 2nd and 1st ed for the creation rules.
Words cannot describe how much I'm not interested in getting into a debate about how a spell can be used....however, I'm not sure how that spell's text can be reasonably interpreted to remove scribing costs of a spell. This, of course, is a separate issue from my original post but I was so befuddled that I felt the need to ask.
Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell.
Put simply, it means, with the spell, you can put any writing you want to on a page, including Arcane Magical Writing. As the spell has only the negligible cost of material components, which can be eschewed, it allows effectively free spell scribing, amongst other benefits.
In fact, I have had one transmuter character forego the blessed book, since, between free cantrips and the spells he got every level for free, he rarely needed to add more than a handful of spells from captured spellbooks, and could secret page them into his book as needed. Since it takes 1 hour per level to add any spell to a spellbook generally, the transmuter can fill as many slots as needed with secret page, and the 15 minute casting time allows the caster to shorten the copy time substantially, down to 2 hours and 15 minutes for a 9th level spell.
In many ways, secret page is better than the blessed book, but the blessed book coopts some of most significant benefits, and provides others which are not within the capability of the spell (1000 pages in the size and weight of 100). My understanding of permanent spells is that the best you could do with secret page is 200 pages, rather than an infinite number of pages.
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That seems a bit of a stretch. The Blessed Book clarifies that the cost for scribing is gone. Secret Page doesn't say that in any way, it just says that you can change the text of a spell to show another spell. You're assuming that means 'hey, I can change this to whatever spell I want and get a free scribing'? I always assumed it was just an illusory effect, that the spell didn't change, it just looked like something else.
Did Wizards ever clarify on this? Seems like a big chunk of cheese to me, and quite a reach for stretching the language.
Exactly.
Secret page's main features are basically concealment of information and/or "compression" of more information into a set page area (magical steganography). I wouldn't assume it negates Scribing costs (magic inks) unless explictly described as such. As described, I would assume secret pageing MUNDANE information would be cheaper than concealing SPELLS, unless specific text exists to suggest the magical ink/special scribing costs are covered by the spell.
Otherwise, one could assume a spell which simply wrote on a normal page (i.e. without the concealment/compression feature of secret page, thus of lower level) could Scribe magical spells as easily as mundane text. To make such a leap, that low level spells negate core functionality, without explicit text suggesting so, seems dubious IMO.
Exactly.
Secret page's main features are basically concealment of information and/or "compression" of more information into a set page area (magical steganography). I wouldn't assume it negates Scribing costs (magic inks) unless explictly described as such. As described, I would assume secret pageing MUNDANE information would be cheaper than concealing SPELLS, unless specific text exists to suggest the magical ink/special scribing costs are covered by the spell.
Otherwise, one could assume a spell which simply wrote on a normal page (i.e. without the concealment/compression feature of secret page, thus of lower level) could Scribe magical spells as easily as mundane text. To make such a leap, that low level spells negate core functionality, without explicit text suggesting so, seems dubious IMO.
Regardless, the ambiguity exists within the text of the spell, and should likely be clarified, before we start worrying about whether the blessed book does or does not behave similar to a wand of secret page with 1000 charges. As I read it, the "change one spell to another" handles that. It is vague, though, and the spell text does not interface cleanly to the Arcane Magical Writing and Scribing Spells rules.
Personally, I hardly consider a 3rd level spell to be low level. Low Mid-level, perhaps, but I feel that 0-2 are low level, 3-5 are Mid-Level, and 6-9 are High level.
I know, I'm saying that a lower level spell (1st or 2nd) which solely "wrote a page", subtracting the concealment and "compression" aspect of Secret Page, would logically have the same alleged ability to bypass Spell Scribing costs as Secret Page, right?
In any case, clearer wording needed for sure...
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Even interpreting it literally like that, it still isn't allowing you to get new spells in your book in addition to your current ones. Just switch old ones to new ones.
Example: Your wizard has 5 pages of 1st level spells. He wants to change out Magic Missile for Shield. He uses Secret Page. He still has 5 pages of 1st level spells, but now he no longer has access to Magic Missile, but can now use Shield.
The old Wizard's boards seem to agree with this (those who believe Secret Page is more than an illusory effect, at least). You can change one spell to another, but you still can't *add* new spells for free.
So a wand of Secret Page really does nothing other than allow you to switch the same 1st level spell 50 times to other 1st level spells. The main benefit of the Book is that you get to scribe brand new spells into it without replacing old ones that you still may wish to use. Secret Page can't do that, it has to replace something to make something new.
Even interpreting it literally like that, it still isn't allowing you to get new spells in your book in addition to your current ones. Just switch old ones to new ones.
Example: Your wizard has 5 pages of 1st level spells. He wants to change out Magic Missile for Shield. He uses Secret Page. He still has 5 pages of 1st level spells, but now he no longer has access to Magic Missile, but can now use Shield.
The old Wizard's boards seem to agree with this (those who believe Secret Page is more than an illusory effect, at least). You can change one spell to another, but you still can't *add* new spells for free.
So a wand of Secret Page really does nothing other than allow you to switch the same 1st level spell 50 times to other 1st level spells. The main benefit of the Book is that you get to scribe brand new spells into it without replacing old ones that you still may wish to use. Secret Page can't do that, it has to replace something to make something new.
I disagree, but mostly on a technicality.
As I read it, you can use secret page (and the associated keyword) to swap your page of (whatever spell), even if it happens to be one of up to 9 pages required for (whatever spell) with a page of (whatever other spell), and toggle back and forth between them with the keyword. There is no requirement for (whatever other spell) to be a spell that exists within the wizard's spell book or is prepared, as written, although that could be patched within the spell description by a single line: "Secret Page cannot be used to place spell text on a page if the spell is not known by the caster." That way, it becomes handy when copying spellbooks, but not so useful when adding to an existing spellbook. I can certainly read the current secret page to allow conversion of a page of Arcane Magical Writing to a blank page, to allow it to be scribed over. To clarify that is a simple patch, "The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell or a blank page".
Regardless, the Blessed Book is much too cheap, or scribing costs are too expensive, or both. The value of the blessed book, per normal scribing costs, is at the most 100,000 gp worth of scribing, at the least 50,000 gp, 150 gp worth of spellbook, and some random adhoc adjustment for being 1/30 the weight of 10 normal spellbooks. That is far more valuable than the current 12,500 gp price, regardless of whether or not secret page allows wizards to ignore scribing costs.
My proposal, is to make the Blessed Book cost somewhere around 60,000 gp. That way, the Blessed Book still provides a scribing benefit (allows you to add new spells as if you were copying a known spell), along with the other benefits of the book.
RE: Secret Page
I'm not sure that I'd agree with it being used to get around the cost of scribing a spell completely. It seems like a stretch of the rules. However, based on this line:
The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell.
I think there's a case for the wizard who casts this as they scribe the spells in their spell book, reducing the effective spell level (and thus the costs) to a minimum of equal to Secret Page's level (3).
That'd give the wizard a break with regard to the page count and gold cost of scribing a higher level spell. It'd also keep Secret Page a useful spell without over powering it. Plus writing your spell book in code is just plain cool. Stage magicians do it for their illusions - why not fantasy wizards?
For clarification, this isn't an interpretation of the existing rules for the spell, but a rules suggestion.
Peace,
tfad
whoa! whoa! First of all, declaring that because a charged item costs such and such, thus a permanent item should cost this,is totally bogus.
That completely condemns all permanent magic items.
Bracers of Dex +4 = 4 dex all day, every day = cats grace wand(4500) times what?!
Secondly, there are many items that do not conform completely to the costs it recreates. This item at best, allows that when you find a spell in a scroll or spellbook that you can add it all to one spellbook instead of carrying around a bunch of looted ones. Remember npc wizards still require you pay to copy from them. And scrolls still require you to get them in order to copy them.
Lastly, if you condemn an item because you beleive that someone would be a fool for not taking it..... well lets just say the magic item section is about to get alot shorter.
I think the problem with the Blessed Book in 3.5 started with a transcription error between the 1st ed Unearthed Arcana and the 3.0 DMG.
Check the difference here:
1st ed UA, p. 97 "The pages of such a book will accept magic spells scribed upon them, and any book can contain up to 45 levels of spells."
vs.
DMG 3.0 p. 211 "The pages of Boccob's blessed book freely accept spells scribed upon them, and any such book can contain up to forty-five spells of any level."
There's a big difference between "45 levels of spells" and "forty-five spells of any level."
Crunching the prices from the 3.0 DMG, 9500 gp for 45 pages/spells comes to a cost of slightly more than 211 gp per spell, making the blessed book a bargain for any spell over 1st level, and almost the same cost for 1st level spells with the 3.0 200 gp per spell level.
With the shift to 3.5, this is compounded. Check the current SRD:
"A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a blessed book with spells without paying the 100 gp per page material cost." With the book costing 12,500 gp, that breaks out to 12.5 gp per page/spell level. The same thing goes on with Aureon's Spellshard (Eberron p. 265), which is basically a blessed book with half the pages at half the cost.
Following that logic, anyone with Craft Wondrous Item should be able to make a single page/spell item for a selling price of 12.5 gp. And with regular black ink costing 8 gp per oz. and other colors costing 16 gp per oz. it makes sense to just say that the blessed book is a magically pre-inked book and the cost to put spells in any spellbook is 12.5 gp per spell level, or just round it down to 10 for ease of calculation and say that's the cost in ink and quills and have done with it.
Or you can just toss all the transcribing costs out the window, since they're prohibitively expensive for young wizards and pocketchange for old ones.
whoa! whoa! First of all, declaring that because a charged item costs such and such, thus a permanent item should cost this,is totally bogus.
That completely condemns all permanent magic items.
Bracers of Dex +4 = 4 dex all day, every day = cats grace wand(4500) times what?!Secondly, there are many items that do not conform completely to the costs it recreates. This item at best, allows that when you find a spell in a scroll or spellbook that you can add it all to one spellbook instead of carrying around a bunch of looted ones. Remember npc wizards still require you pay to copy from them. And scrolls still require you to get them in order to copy them.
Lastly, if you condemn an item because you beleive that someone would be a fool for not taking it..... well lets just say the magic item section is about to get alot shorter.
Let's set aside this strawman argument. The fact remains that in order for a wizard to cast a spell, it must be transcribed within the wizard's own spellbook, per Rules As Written. Per RAW, there is a fixed cost for putting a new spell into a wizard's spell book, which is required for the wizard to cast a spell, of 100 gp per spell level, outside of the 2 spells per level, in every single circumstance except for the Blessed Book. The comparison to the cost of the wand of a spell which may or may not allow wizards to skip this cost is valid, as that might have been the only other way for wizards to skip this cost.
Since it has been established that this spell probably doesn't allow wizards to bypass the scribing cost *required* for wizards to cast spells from other spellbooks, then we *have* to compare the cost normally associated with scribing spells from scrolls, looted, or borrowed spellbooks. Since the blessed book provides a 93 gp savings per page (100 gp + 150/100 gp - 12.5 gp) as written, it seems to be priced wrong. Frankly, the 1/30th weight savings for low strength wizards without the scribing cost cheat would be sufficient for the blessed book to be the correct cost. 1500 gp would be the normal cost of 10 blank spellbooks, and to have one spellbook worth 10 of them, at 1/3 the weight, would be a reasonable 12,500 gp wondrous item.
The fact remains that in order for a wizard to cast a spell, it must be transcribed within the wizard's own spellbook, per Rules As Written.
This is not a fact. This is not true at all, actually. Wizards can memorize spells out of other (presumably slain) wizards' spell books by making a Spellcraft check.
The fact remains that in order for a wizard to cast a spell, it must be transcribed within the wizard's own spellbook, per Rules As Written.This is not a fact. This is not true at all, actually. Wizards can memorize spells out of other (presumably slain) wizards' spell books by making a Spellcraft check.
Or off scrolls, or with the spell mastery feat...
And what about his "selected spells" for his specialization? If he can't just rechoose them each day I'm inclined to say he knows them along the same lines as spell mastery.
Besides this item does a specific thing that granted is slightly different than the spell that is used to craft it does, if this is really an issue we have several other items we need to go over including:
Ring of evasion, Pearl of Power, Ring of wizardry, Ring of X-Ray Vision, Fortification Armor, Bracers of Armor...
and the list goes on. Most magic items don't do just what the spell used does, it's just a close approximation to the effect.
This is not a fact. This is not true at all, actually. Wizards can memorize spells out of other (presumably slain) wizards' spell books by making a Spellcraft check.Or off scrolls, or with the spell mastery feat...
And what about his "selected spells" for his specialization? If he can't just rechoose them each day I'm inclined to say he knows them along the same lines as spell mastery.
Besides this item does a specific thing that granted is slightly different than the spell that is used to craft it does, if this is really an issue we have several other items we need to go over including:
Ring of evasion, Pearl of Power, Ring of wizardry, Ring of X-Ray Vision, Fortification Armor, Bracers of Armor...
and the list goes on. Most magic items don't do just what the spell used does, it's just a close approximation to the effect.
I'm sorry, but outside of spell mastery, or the domain "selected spells", this is actually quite wrong.
From Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks:
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured.
I'm quite okay with the Blessed Book doing something different from what the spell does. It is not, in fact, a spell in a can, and is certainly a Wondrous Item. I just think that it does too much for what it costs, in reducing scribing costs by 92 gp per spell level. I cannot think of any other Wondrous Item which provides such a substantial cost savings.
The wizard can do it though. It says not assured, not that it can't be done. It's a simple DC 20 spellcraft check, and I've seen (and played) wizards that can make that on a take 10 at level 1.
The wizard can do it though. It says not assured, not that it can't be done. It's a simple DC 20 spellcraft check, and I've seen (and played) wizards that can make that on a take 10 at level 1.
Sure, but it still requires that she prepare a spell *she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook.* Read that section again, because that's why I bolded that section. If you houserule to allow wizards to cast spells that they haven't copied outside of casting from scrolls, you are, in fact, making a houserule, because that is not in the rules as written.
And with regular black ink costing 8 gp per oz. and other colors costing 16 gp per oz. ...
Ah, yes. Here's one case of one ridiculous price that forces all other prices based on it up through the roof.
8 gp = 8/50 lb x 16 oz/lb = 2.56 oz
So, ordinary black ink is 2.5 times more valuable than gold. That means after selling it for half price it is still more valuable than gold!
[Player:] We search the chamber.
[DM:] You find a sealed cask marked "INK" about 2 gallons. Also, a small chest lays open under some parchments. It has 12 bottles of various colored inks, mostly full.
[Players:] W00t!
It should probably be more like 8 copper pieces per ounce.
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The debate about Secret Page seems bizarre.
I've always treated it (in every edition) as allowing the caster to fit two pages of information one one page. Simple.
If you want to be secretive, you hide the spells behind some innocuous text, like recipes, or somesuch. Of course, you could have fun with this, bookmarking your spells; Beef Dripping hides the Grease spell, Missisippi Mud Pie hides Transmute Rock to Mud, and your Twin Energy-Substituted Fireball/Coldball becomes 'Baked Alaska'...
If you're not bothered about secrecy, you can use the cover pages for spells you know, effectively doubling the size of your spellbook from 100 pages to 200.
All this nonsense about using the extra single page to store 9th-level spells you don't even know yet, just shows how some people like to read what they want to read, rather than the actual intent, and their desperate attempts to justify it now are to avoid their DM realising they've been scammed.
The debate about Secret Page seems bizarre.
I've always treated it (in every edition) as allowing the caster to fit two pages of information one one page. Simple.
If you want to be secretive, you hide the spells behind some innocuous text, like recipes, or somesuch. Of course, you could have fun with this, bookmarking your spells; Beef Dripping hides the Grease spell, Missisippi Mud Pie hides Transmute Rock to Mud, and your Twin Energy-Substituted Fireball/Coldball becomes 'Baked Alaska'...
If you're not bothered about secrecy, you can use the cover pages for spells you know, effectively doubling the size of your spellbook from 100 pages to 200.
All this nonsense about using the extra single page to store 9th-level spells you don't even know yet, just shows how some people like to read what they want to read, rather than the actual intent, and their desperate attempts to justify it now are to avoid their DM realising they've been scammed.
Can you put that strawman right back where you found it? Nowhere did I suggest that secret page let you fit a 9th level spell on one page. Nowhere.
What I did suggest may be possible by the rules was to use a casting of secret page to scribe a single spell level of an understood but not yet "known" (scribed) spell to the wizard's spellbook. This may or may not be correct, and I have moved that concern to the spells forum, where it belongs. Secret page needs a bit of clarification, sure.
Regardless, if secret page does allow wizards to cast it to scribe one level of spell for free, which is at best a 100 gp savings, the practical methods of doing so, via wand or staff, cost a lot more per page than 12.5 gp. If it doesn't allow that, then it is moot, because that means the only way to "know" (scribe) a spell is to spend 101.5 gp per spell level without the blessed book, and 12.5 gp per spell level with the blessed book. That large price discrepancy makes the blessed book too good.
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Can you put that strawman right back where you found it? Nowhere did I suggest that secret page let you fit a 9th level spell on one page. Nowhere.
Sorry, but I never mentioned you.
I'm simply stating that I have seen players try that interpretation, due to the text quoted earlier;
"The pages of Boccob's blessed book freely accept spells scribed upon them, and any such book can contain up to forty-five spells of any level."
Using that to prove that a level 9 spell could be fit onto one page, and from there, retroactively interpret that Secret Page, the spell required for the crafting, was intended to work that way as well.
Which, if you accept that logic, meant that when finding scrolls of spells, instead of learning them as normal, and scribing them at normal length, and normal cost, they could 'XEROX' a copy into their book, for later, taking up only one page each time. And then learn them later.
I wouldn't allow that interpretation, and don't expect anyone else to. However, the fact that the argument could even be made at all means the wording could do with clearing up.
I wouldn't allow that interpretation, and don't expect anyone else to. However, the fact that the argument could even be made at all means the wording could do with clearing up.
Oh, definately. Cross linking a wondrous item to interpret the function of a spell is all kinds of bad. But I definately agree that secret page needs some clarity in what it actually does. As the thread has established, if part of secret page's function is to add new text to a page, then it needs to be very clear that the spell is not "Copy Scroll", and the current wording of the spell possibly leaves that open to GM interpretation.
As I see it the secret page spell gives 2 options as written when it comes to writing new spells.
1. Write a single page of a spell into a spell book per casting with no change to the number of pages, at no cost and at a faster rate. The caster learns the new spell gets ready to write it out the usual way when the thought occurs that the spell could do all of that tedious work for me and it would take less time. Great.
2. Use the spell to hide a second page of a different spell with the same process and restrictions as in case 1 but only on pages written without using secret page since casting the same spell should replace the original. Now we have a spell book that has 200 pages in it that requires a command word or words to access the extra 100 pages.
That is just my opinion of what I see in the spell description. The spell is powerful no doubt but for transmutation at that level why not? It is one of a very few that true seeing does not just straight out trump. That is a spell I think needs a posting on.
As for the BB as is I feel it is close to over the top but not so much as to think the price has to be inflated to the numbers I have seen suggested. It is kind of a must have for me but not to save money on new spells rather to make a backup of spells that I already know into a neat and tougher book for traveling. Keep the fragile originals in a safe place that you have access to if needed.
I would think that changing the BB to only waive the costs for spells you already know and have recorded elsewhere to feel like it came from a cheese factory of some sort but would not lose my head over it.
Just my take on it.