Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This weekend, I went to Game Empire in San Diego, which used to be one of the better shops in the area, to buy some gaming stuff for my birthday. I probably shop at a gaming store two or three times a year; most of my rpg books are purchased through Amazon or Paizo. I usually go to a gaming store when I am looking to buy a game from a line I don't play, typically Heroes, Ars Magica, WoD, or Shadowrun.
That was my plan on this trip, but when I arrived, I was shocked to see that the rpg book line had about half the shelf space from my last trip. That shelf space was about 75% 4e and White Wolf (WoD and Exalted). There was a smattering of other game lines on shelves below the display racks, but they were mostly old d20 stuff and a handful of other games. I didn't see any Shadowrun, Heroes, or Ars Magica products.
I'm not sure how much lamenting I can do given that I'm obviously part of the reason these books are no longer offered. Still, I was bummed that rpg books appear to be a dwindling breed in game stores. I wonder if we are approaching a world where game stores only offer a slightly broader selection as compared to Barnes & Noble/Borders and the remainder is sold via the internet.
Anyone else seeing anything similar, or did I just catch the game store at a low ebb in inventory given that I was shopping immediately after Christmas and during a bad recession?
Contributor
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Nice to know you were shopping in my neck of the woods, Sebastian. I recently discovered Game Empire, myself, and when I'm not deployed, I take part in their monthly Game Day, where they're running Pathfinder Society Games alongside the LFR games.
As for the reduced number of product lines available, I think its a sign of changes in the economy, myself. I've got several friends who are professional writers. They are necessarily tied into the world of publishing and have been noticing a recent decline in the world of print media.
I think that the expense of print publishing, combined with the increased availability of high-speed internet connectivity, is causing many publishers to move toward electronic media.
In the gaming world, I think it's also a matter of the recession, which has probably caused many gamers to cut back on their RPG spending. It makes sense that retailers would modify their inventory and lean toward the lines that are selling the most.
I, too, am partly to blame for the decline of retail sales in the RPG world. I spend 99.9% of my RPG dollars on this website, with an occasional trip to another, well-known site that sells RPGs in PDF format (usually to get access to references mentioned in the Paizo publications). Still, I agree that it's too bad that more game lines don't seem to be doing very well.
My local store recently closed for remodeling. Later, they revealed they contemplated closing shop. Luckily, for me, they decided to drop comics instead of going out of business.
The owner explained to me that they have to buy so many comics to get a decent enough profit on them. However, they are just not selling enough of them to make up that profit.
The RPGs just break even. It is the CCGs that really make the money.
I was surprised to learn they even make some on food.
Well, since I have no LGS, I do most of my buying at Paizo. When I go to the bookstore (B&N) I always run my eyes over their RPG section just for fun. After 3E wrapped up the area started to shrink, until now it covers one shelf (half 4E/half nWoD) down from three. Sunday I went to B&N and for the first time saw a Pathfinder Campaign Setting on the shelf, so I was pleasantly surprised by that.
Oooo! I hope that is a sign of things to come.
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Contributor
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Does that mean that some stores might have success by morphing into gaming parlors? Provide a comfortable place to play, perhaps with some of the amenities people would want in their "dream game room," and refreshments...as well as print materials to support the games people run there?
Might be a business model worth looking into. I'm not exactly interested in going into the business, myself. But the business real estate market will likely be taking a plunge in the near future. A well-positioned entrepreneur might be able to get a decent location at a good price.
I had an idea for just such a place many years ago. Basically a combination, coffee shop and gamer's haven. I was going to call it "Common Ground." (Anyone is free to steal that idea, by the way...especially if they set up shop in my neighborhood. ;)
No it's the same here. My closest LGS pretty much reacted to 4th edition the same way that WotC wanted them to.
They did a big game day, sold all their 3rd edition D&D books away at 30% off, sold all their Goodman Dungeon Crawl Classics away at $5 apeice, and stopped selling other RPG books altiogether other than a smattering of World of Darkness stuff.
I pretty much gave up and decided never to go back..But a freind of mine wanted to go so I accompanied him a week or so ago.
All the DDC was gone and the only D&D 3rd edition stuff was a few Eberron books and one of the three FR hardcover adventure trilogy.
I asked the guy at the store if they planed on carrying Pathfinder. He kind of wrinkled his nose and said he wasnt going to bother carrying 3rd edition books anymore. He seemed to think companies making 3rd edition product after 4th edition's release was stupid.
I mentioned the Pathfinder RPG rules. He said he doesnt want to bother ordering anything Pathfinder until it starts using the new ruleset, and then he MIGHT. Told me he will petition Paizo to send his store an early copy of the rules so he can review them to see if they are any good and worth carrying in his store. But he doesnt expect to order any RPG books sight unseen. I told him he can see the rules early by downloading the Beta but by then he seemed done talking to me.
So yeah now that they are dead to me all that I have left is ordering my RPG product on the internet.
When $35 game books can be purchased online for $20 - $25, I see it as mostly inevitable that online sellers are going to eventually undo local game stores. However, someone wrote (was it Erik Mona?) about how local game stores can continue to thrive by offering other services besides just rpg sales. Services such as game nights and networking - basically, they should create an exciting gaming environment.
If there was a local game store where I lived that offered a little bit more than D&D books, I'd probably check it out. I remember in my teens many thriving gaming stores that were wonderful to visit. I don't live in the same area, so I don't know how those places are doing. It would be a shame if they died, but I'm not sure what can be done about it.
<sarcasm warning>
Jason, don't question these guys, they're obviously retail geniuses.
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We have two decent LGSs here, Nan's (the one without an "F" in LGS) and Midnight Comics. Both carry just about everything, with Midnight Comics having a deeper "used" selection and room in the back for gaming.
The guys at Nans carry Pathfinder and 4e pretty much equally, both getting their own "end shelves" (dedicated shelves more prominently displayed than their normal shelves); Midnight Comics has a little more 4e stuff, but displays their Pathfinder stock in a more prominent way (full cover view on a shelf over the book cases, as opposed to the 4e stuff being displayed in the book case, spine forward).
Nans is more mercenary, they really don't have a gaming preference, they'll sell whatever sells. The Midnight Comics employees are decidedly anti-4e, and I've heard them steer kids away from 4e to Pathfinder or 3x (they had a couple copies of the Beta still until recently and still have a decent stock of both new and used d20 3.x product), but the owner only cares whether or not product moves off the shelves (I think he still plays an AD&D 1e variant when he does play).
Both are doing fine financially (Nans because gaming stuff isn't their bread and butter, even though they are quite thorough in their RPG selection, Midnight Comics because they just rock as a gaming store), and both seem like they are relatively unaffected by the economy (as Houston pretty much is in general).
Neither one has any plans to cut back on RPG books in the near future, AFAIK, so no worries in this neck of the woods...
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Told me he will petition Paizo to send his store an early copy of the rules so he can review them to see if they are any good and worth carrying in his store.
This may be one of the dumber things I've ever heard. "Nevermind that I may have dozens of customers who might want the books any pay me for them, I won't carry it cause I don't like it". Any pity I had for FLGS vanishes more by the day, I tell ya.
-DM Jeff
I have no idea if local game stores are cutting back on product lines. I buy my stuff from Amazon.ca -- the low prices are great, and the dead puppies are just a bonus.
Plus, I told everybody that Amazon kills puppies. I've seen them do it.
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Well I'm sure you know Cliff at Game Empire tends to PUSH new systems, he like new sales of new systems, so since 4e and WoD are all producing new content, those are the lines he pushes. I noticed this with miniature games, he would constantly push the new game.
Game Towne, I like better. (they offer a military discount for active or previous members.)
unfortunately I live in inland north county, so I can't get down there often anymore.
I am posting this here and am in no way associated with the store. That being said, at Owlcon I received a flier for a FLGS called Asgard Games here in Houston, TX. I just got back from talking to one of the owners about the possibility of holding Pathfinder Society Game Days once a month. Will Pagani was very interested in what I had to say about my experiences at Owlcon and with playing the Beta Playtest. He is willing to let HoustonDerek and I have a table once a month to promote Pathfinder and the Society. I have no firm confirmation as to when our first one will be. I will post once the date has been confirmed. For those of you in the Houston area their website is AsgardGames(dot)net. My impression is that the owner is very interested in getting to know about Paizo and the Pathfinder line.
Just my 2 cp.
If you are interested in the above post, please check the Pathfinder Society Grand Lodge heading. Look for "A Pathfinder Society Game Day in Houston, TX".
No it's the same here. My closest LGS pretty much reacted to 4th edition the same way that WotC wanted them to.
They did a big game day, sold all their 3rd edition D&D books away at 30% off, sold all their Goodman Dungeon Crawl Classics away at $5 apeice, and stopped selling other RPG books altiogether other than a smattering of World of Darkness stuff.
I pretty much gave up and decided never to go back..But a freind of mine wanted to go so I accompanied him a week or so ago.
All the DDC was gone and the only D&D 3rd edition stuff was a few Eberron books and one of the three FR hardcover adventure trilogy.I asked the guy at the store if they planed on carrying Pathfinder. He kind of wrinkled his nose and said he wasnt going to bother carrying 3rd edition books anymore. He seemed to think companies making 3rd edition product after 4th edition's release was stupid.
I mentioned the Pathfinder RPG rules. He said he doesnt want to bother ordering anything Pathfinder until it starts using the new ruleset, and then he MIGHT. Told me he will petition Paizo to send his store an early copy of the rules so he can review them to see if they are any good and worth carrying in his store. But he doesnt expect to order any RPG books sight unseen. I told him he can see the rules early by downloading the Beta but by then he seemed done talking to me.
So yeah now that they are dead to me all that I have left is ordering my RPG product on the internet.
Where I am currently... sadly, there is no game shop. Where I lived up to last summer had a fantastic LFGS. The owner was quick to help, and very friendly. He pushed 4th, but he did get in several copies of Pathfinder Beta, primarily because I talked so much about it with him (and others at the store). I know for a fact that if I still lived in the area I'd be running PFS scenarios there. Whenever I return there, which i do to see friends, and plays (usually friends in plays) i try to go in and pick up an item or two. Even though I don't live in the area any more, I still want the store to be around for my friends and acquaintances there to have and enjoy. Not just for RPGs (he hosts a weekly game using 4th edition, plus a few of my peers, and high school students go in and run games using his facilities) but for the CCG players, the miniature wargamers, and boardgame players (he's got a nice selection of boardgames too). So yeah, the attitude of the above individual baffles me.
You have no idea how lucky you are. I live in Taiwan. I holiday in Thailand. Neither country HAS a game store. I probably know everybody in Taichung that plays an RPG* in English (seven people) or MtG (About forty)
This is a city with 2.6 million people. I saw a collection of core 3.0 books in Chinese translation. They were mixed in with the strategy guides in a computer game shop. I asked the laoban if he had ever sold any, and he was surprised to see them there. He had no idea how the books got there, or what they were.
In Taipei 101, there is a bookstore called page one. It had one of each of the core 4e books, and a copy of Mage the Awakening. They have been there for almost a year. I stuck a business card in each. Still there. That is the best bookshop in Taiwan.
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No it's the same here. My closest LGS pretty much reacted to 4th edition the same way that WotC wanted them to.
I asked the guy at the store if they planed on carrying Pathfinder. He kind of wrinkled his nose and said he wasnt going to bother carrying 3rd edition books anymore. He seemed to think companies making 3rd edition product after 4th edition's release was stupid.
I mentioned the Pathfinder RPG rules. He said he doesnt want to bother ordering anything Pathfinder until it starts using the new ruleset, and then he MIGHT. But he doesnt expect to order any RPG books sight unseen.
So yeah now that they are dead to me all that I have left is ordering my RPG product on the internet.
I cut some out of your quote, but now that is my gaming store:P I have run a few Pathfinder games at the store, even with the owner in them and still no luck. It was funny because when 4e came out I ran a game, but when it ended no one played or looked at it again.
So I started my Pathfinder game up at the store and people loved it! Besides myself and two others who spend all their RPG money on Paizo, well I do get some from Amazon, the owner had 12 other people asking for Pathfinder...he won't order a thing! He is bent on 4e, so I am trying to work it in there, but no luck yet.
Moral of the story is: much like Jason, I have Paizo and I am very happy.
The next closest store is 45mins away and has only 4e too:(
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This is a city with 2.6 million people. I saw a collection of core 3.0 books in Chinese translation. They were mixed in with the strategy guides in a computer game shop. I asked the laoban if he had ever sold any, and he was surprised to see them there. He had no idea how the books got there, or what they were.
Hi Taliesin,
Might those 3.0 core Chinese translation books still be available? If 2.6 million Chinese aren't interested in them, I might be.
At various times I have tried explaining or introducing the game to Chinese speaking friends, and these books would none-the-less make a fascinating talking point in my collection.
Of course I'd prefer 3.5 or Pathfinder RPG versions if they were available, but I'd have no idea whether 3.5 translations were ever produced, and I'm guessing I'll need to wait a while longer than August to see Pathfinder translations.
I would be very surprised if they have sold. They gather dust. They are sealed in plastic. The books in question were the DMG, PHB and MM 1.
my email is talhoyle@yahoo.com
I will get prices for you. I do not know if the translation is any good. One of the people I play MtG with said he had read the PHB and was not impressed with the way it was translated. They are in simplified chinese, as used on the mainland.
You have no idea how lucky you are. I live in Taiwan. I holiday in Thailand. Neither country HAS a game store. I probably know everybody in Taichung that plays an RPG* in English (seven people) or MtG (About forty). This is a city with 2.6 million people.
Wow, that's...uhh, amazingly sad. And Taiwan is one of the most free, rich and creative countries in East Asia. Do you think the lack of interest in RPGs stems from the psychology of East Asians, the culture there or some other factor?
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Wow, that's...uhh, amazingly sad. And Taiwan is one of the most free, rich and creative countries in East Asia. Do you think the lack of interest in RPGs stems from the psychology of East Asians, the culture there or some other factor?You have no idea how lucky you are. I live in Taiwan. I holiday in Thailand. Neither country HAS a game store. I probably know everybody in Taichung that plays an RPG* in English (seven people) or MtG (About forty). This is a city with 2.6 million people.
Asians aren't completely unaware of the concept of roleplaying games, as they produce a large number of computer RPGs in their languages and genres. And asian culture tends to be very social, whether gathering for a weekly Mahjong night, or hanging out at the local mall, so they would at least seem to be receptive to the concept of social roleplaying games rather than computer LAN networks.
Rather I suspect the failing comes from lack of access to translated materials or any home-grown alternatives.
Also, having an industry leader with a branch in your region to help stores out with supply, distribution, promotions, organised play, game days etc, and who speak your language.
The level of awareness a product receives - promotion, support, a steady stream of translated products to maintain interest levels in the face of competing interests - takes a lot of effort.
I suspect there's an opportunity ready for some company to take advantage of - say after the frenzy of the Pathfinder RPG release, Paizo then used Oriental Adventures to help them break into the Asian market - but it would be a monumental task without access to a hobby game store network such as exists in western countries.
And for your first attempt, would you pour your translation and distribution efforts into traditional or simplified Chinese, or Japanese? Are Thai, Indonesian, Malaysian or Indian viable markets? Etc. You'd likely need to do a lot of research, and choose your market.
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I was actually just in Game Empire myself on my lunch break today and noticed the same thing. I was surprised because they used to be the place to go for Paizo stuff(though Game Towne in Old Town has a good selection too), but now it was down to just a handful of the APs all tucked together on one shelf.
If you are looking for their Shadowrun books however, they are still available in the store, they just aren't in the main RPG aisle. Look along the back endcap between the RPG books and the card games. That endcap has Shadowrun and a couple games from less common systems there.
-Tarlane