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The monk is already immune to so many magic spells/deseases/poisons. now movement is beyond reproach? i can see getting the rangers ability to move through rough terrain. But if that is so, why give him massive amounts of movement?
Other then that, i don't see anything that would realy improve the class.
The monk at high levels skews much too much into the territory of the "mystic on a mountain" for my tastes.
I´d love to see some alternate class features, so that a player can take a path of more pro-active combat abilities, instead of the tons of immunities and supernatural gadgets the current high-level monk gets.
I discussed the same thing during the Monk playtest, but it's worth saying again: between levels 14-19, the monk gets two neat abilities (adamantine ki strike, Empty Body at level 19) and a bunch of junk (slow fall, some bonus feats from a short list, +1 AC, talking to animals, once a week save-or-die, etc.).
My design recommendation: don't be afraid to give high level characters high level abilities.
Case in point: Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Speak with Animals is a level 1 or 2 spell, and Tongues is a level 3 spell; getting those at level 17(!) is nice, but pointless. Something like telepathy would be more interesting (and no more or less monkish than the ability to talk to cats).
Likewise, why not let the monk use his Quivering Palm more often? Make it could cost 4 ki points (or something like that).
Additionally, I'd like to see the list of monk bonus feats expanded a lot, maybe with some of the new Critical feats.
I would like to see:
- an increment in ki points
- an Elemental Fist ability (like the Elemental Rage power of Barbarians) activated by ki points;
- a 'Greater Magic Weapon' ability activated by ki points;
- some kind of 'energy bolt' ability activated by ki points (I know, it's an idea that sounds like 'Kamehameha' or 'Hadouken', but the ki-projection is something that a fantasy martial arts master should have IMHO, perhaps as a capstone); PHBII made this a Feat that any character with Stunning Fist could use (a lousy damage, but still...)
And it would be nice a feature along the way to add the Wisdom modifier to the hit roll and/or the damage roll of unarmed strikes...
Just my 2c.
I'd also like to give a bonus number of ki points to the monk as part of the level 20 capstone since the monk has "ascended" at that point.
This makes sense - a change to 1 Ki point/level at 20 would make an admirable addition to the capstone.
They don't need most of the rest mentioned, imho. One of the key reasons to my mind to taking Monk levels is Diamond Soul (Spell Resistance 10 + *Monk* Level).
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yeah, diamond souls is great. But the buck kinda stops ther as it were. Three are alot of levels with no real improvement imo. who cares if the monk can fall 2000 feet. Who, honestly, has ever had a monk fall more than 30-50ft? ok so cap it, and give the monk something useful for the rest of the levels. And if the monk class is a grappling class, throw in some more feats along the way to make him a grappler. IMp Grab, grapple, trip, disarm, etc. This would give him the ability to spend feats on things that actually make the class interesting.
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Levels 15 and 18 seem to be a total waste to me. Quivering palm, in its current form, does not really make a difference. Timeless body and tounges, no thanks.Slowfall 70,80,90. im not impressed by that either. Empty body, perfect self, slowfall forever; ok those are nice.
However, perfect self is not really helpful, how many CR 20 creatures are running around without magic weapons of some kind?
Slowfall forever, neat if you want to make a bet with your local merchant that you can survive jumping off a cliff, but may never be used.
Ehteral body, now i can kick butt with impunity.
The bonus feats are nice, but not enough to keep me in the class, i can go over to fighter and get more feats.
All in all, after Diamond soul, i have no interest to continue with the class. My flurry of blows is dependent on BAB, so i would actaully get an extra atack by switching to fighter.
Ki pool is the last thing that is a real mouth wetter. bypassing DR. now that is nice. of course i can use adamantine kama to do that also... so i guess levels 14-20 do nothng to make me want to continue.
Or just get a +5 enhancement bonus on your fist, since enhancement bonuses allow you to bypass DR now.
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enhancement to fists? i don't think that is possible...
I just had a thought. a monk has the WORST AC in the game. no armor= no enhancements= the monk is a minimum of 6 AC less than others. Mages can wear armor if they don't mind tha spell failure, until they can just cast magic armor. The monk either has to depend on the party mage, or spend massive amounts on potions or rods.
I was thinking of giving him access specifically to padded armor, and alow him to keep all his monk abilities.Not fancy, but it gives him access to enough protection to justify putting him on the front line.
This combined with adding gontlets to his monk weapons list would go a long way toards playability.... IDEA, give him this ability at say 10-13th level. that is a heck of alot beter than any other monk ability above 12th.
Does this sound rasonable all you monks out there? Equal rights. that is what we want. We've had the women's movement, how about the monks movement. :-D
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enhancement to fists? i don't think that is possible...
I just had a thought. a monk has the WORST AC in the game. no armor= no enhancements= the monk is a minimum of 6 AC less than others. Mages can wear armor if they don't mind tha spell failure, until they can just cast magic armor. The monk either has to depend on the party mage, or spend massive amounts on potions or rods.
I was thinking of giving him access specifically to padded armor, and alow him to keep all his monk abilities.Not fancy, but it gives him access to enough protection to justify putting him on the front line.
This combined with adding gontlets to his monk weapons list would go a long way toards playability.... IDEA, give him this ability at say 10-13th level. that is a heck of alot beter than any other monk ability above 12th.
Does this sound rasonable all you monks out there? Equal rights. that is what we want. We've had the women's movement, how about the monks movement. :-D
The Amulet of Mighty Fists provides enhancement to unarmed attacks (fists), and provides a mechanism to add weapon properties as well (i.e. holy, flaming, etc.).
I'm testing out a level 15 monk on this thread and I've gotten Sleepy Monk's base AC up to 32. With a ki point spent on a +4 dodge bonus, Dodge, and a potion of +5 barkskin, he's up to AC 42 - not too shabby for a monk. In comparison, the 15th level fighter has a base AC 41 before miscellaneous add-ons - so I'd say he is in the same ballpark as the fighter.
Magic Vestment will work on clothing, and could be seen as the basis of magical armors. I wouldn't tell a player "no" on buying masterwork robes + 5.
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These can help with the AC situation and since they provide an armour bonus to AC it keeps the armour wearers from using these and allows the non-armour wearing characters to keep up in AC and if you use the bracers with enhancements rule sidebar from arms and equipment that can undercut some of the problems.
So, as long as a Monk has access to a Monk's Robe he would be stupid not to cross class into fighter.
Or ranger, or paladin, or a prestige class like duelist, etc...
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enhancement to fists? i don't think that is possible...
I just had a thought. a monk has the WORST AC in the game. no armor= no enhancements= the monk is a minimum of 6 AC less than others. Mages can wear armor if they don't mind tha spell failure, until they can just cast magic armor. The monk either has to depend on the party mage, or spend massive amounts on potions or rods.
I was thinking of giving him access specifically to padded armor, and alow him to keep all his monk abilities.Not fancy, but it gives him access to enough protection to justify putting him on the front line.
This combined with adding gontlets to his monk weapons list would go a long way toards playability.... IDEA, give him this ability at say 10-13th level. that is a heck of alot beter than any other monk ability above 12th.
Does this sound rasonable all you monks out there? Equal rights. that is what we want. We've had the women's movement, how about the monks movement. :-DThe Amulet of Mighty Fists provides enhancement to unarmed attacks (fists), and provides a mechanism to add weapon properties as well (i.e. holy, flaming, etc.).
I'm testing out a level 15 monk on this thread and I've gotten Sleepy Monk's base AC up to 32. With a ki point spent on a +4 dodge bonus, Dodge, and a potion of +5 barkskin, he's up to AC 42 - not too shabby for a monk. In comparison, the 15th level fighter has a base AC 41 before miscellaneous add-ons - so I'd say he is in the same ballpark as the fighter.
What are Sleepy Monk's attacks though? (+18 correct?) Grumble has a +28 attack with both his dwarven axe plus he's a shield specialist. Monks need a LOT more work. They are far behind the fighter now. Grumble has mobility +4 dodge, could drink a +5 barkskin be at almost a 50AC.
Xaaon's Monk addresses some of the problems with the monk. It needed a lot of work to smooth it out, since there's a lot to it. Notably, a built-in unarmed increase of +1/4 levels. Adamantine weapons are affordable at 4th level. There needs to be a BIG change. Everyone except Jason seems to agree. I wonder if Jason hates monks.
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What are Sleepy Monk's attacks though? (+18 correct?) Grumble has a +28 attack with both his dwarven axe plus he's a shield specialist. Monks need a LOT more work. They are far behind the fighter now. Grumble has mobility +4 dodge, could drink a +5 barkskin be at almost a 50AC....
Yes, the monk attacks are nowhere near the fighters - that is a big weakness. I was only referring to the AC dilemma. There are problems, and Jason has mentioned a couple times on various threads that the monk has received some special attention. I'm hoping this is one aspect that is brought more in line with front-line fighters.
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The changes have to be Monk specific. not an item anyone can get. i like the mighty fists, that helps, but it is still not a +1 BAB for a front line fighter, all in all that is a +5 difference. which isn't bad, just annoying. The armor... needs help. if a monk, with all the possible buffs, is 10 AC behind other armor carrying types, at their base. and if jason honestly thinks there is nothing wrong, then ask him how many levels of monk he would be willing to take. not more then 12 if i guess right. which wouldn't bother me, except the fighters armor training doesn't include unarmored combat.
The Dr/Magic is meant to mean that most minor mundane damage wont affect him.
Say a horse kicking him, ora goblin with a sling.
It's like all his other abilites after 12th level, they are parlor tricks, not powers.
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exactly, good simily. i don't care if some 3rd level character can' hurt me, i could crush half a city with impunity at that point. what we need is a list of possible powers to give high level monks. i think low to mid level powers are decent, no poisons or deaseases or what not, but we need some good crunchy stuff. stuff that matters at that level, that gives monks an edge. ideas;
. use armors and maintain abilities or
. Nautral armor that escalates
. more ki powers
That is all i got off the top of my head.
Something that has been plaguing me since 3.5 and now even more with the Beta:
Perfect Self
The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.
I wouldn't say DR X/magic is "functionless" at level 20. If you take a look at a sampling of high CR creatures, you'll notice that creatures with DR X/magic are in the minority (DR X/alignment or DR X/metal is more popular for high CR creatures) except for dragons. Of course, it's useless against weapon-using creatures, but not all creatures use weapons.
Look, you raise a good point about the monsters with weapons, but the bottom line is that you are very wrong when you say that DR/magic isn't useless at 20th level. What self-respecting humanoid would fight with non-magical weaponry at 20th level?
I'm just saying there's a difference between "completely useless" (as you put it) and "useless against some enemies" (as I would put it).
At 20th level, depending on your DM or campaign, your monk may end up being caught up in all sorts of intrigues that powerful high level characters tend to get caught up in.
If your DM is a good one, then you will face more common low level threats in addition to the high level ones. Realistically, and I use the term loosely, appropriate level enemies should be rare while appropriate level challenges are more common. By challenges I mean non-combat as well as combat.
With DR/magic, the sudden attack by a couple of assassins goes awry when they realize their non-magical swords are not slicing into your monk. As a full round action, your monk grabs their swords by the blades (grapple) and pulls the assassins closer for a quick 1-2 unarmed attack (1 attack each at full BAB), gaining a +2 circumstance bonus to the attack rolls. Not exactly RAW but no DM should deny allowing this since it's cool and cinematic.
The nation you support goes to war, so they have the party you're in lead the charge. Most of the soldiers beating on you get horrified as they realize you're practically invulnerable and start running away, reducing enemy morale and saving ally soldiers' lives.
Also, the DR is not the only advantage gained. One needs to evaluate the capstone as a whole to determine whether any of it needs to be changed.
I think that too much emphasis is given on combat capabilities over story-driving capabilities. People often lose focus on the fact that this is a role-playing game with wargaming aspects, not a wargame with role-playing flavor.
Well, I completely agree, but this cool things can be done even with a DR 10/Chaos (or better yet, DR 10/Law... in order to allow a high-level Monk to duel in a realistic way against this capstone Monk). And the Monk would not feel useless against a 7th-level NPC Warrior with a +1 Longsword.
I mean, a Paladin is cool with his DR 10/Evil (again, I prefer DR 10/Good... a Paladin SHOULD be resistant against his enemies...but I'm digressing), but the Monk not ?|
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Well wraith. I think you nailed it.... Still leaves the problem "If you can't fix it, don't mention it." So i think i am going to go through and come up with a list of replacement abilities for the monk. An i know that there are alot of people who would be better at it than me, so i would like to hear other ideas as well. My GM actually ruled in a set of Monk Brass knuckles, so i could have a weapon. Very Cool of him, but it doesn't fix high level monks.
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What can make the Monk class Better?
Things that need a change/ Replaced
Quivering Palm 15th Level
Timeless Body 17th Level
Tounge of the sun and moon 17th Level
Ethralness 19th level (Truly awesome, but at way to high a level maybe 15th.)
Perfect Self 20th Level (see Stone Skin, or any cheap potion a 1st level PC can get)
Ki Points= Monk Level + Wis. Modifier
Monk can choose which ability (Str/Dex) to use on CMB rolls (4th level)
Bonus feets
Persuasive/ Self Sufficient
Possible Ki Powers (KPs) From spells
Stone skin (DR 10/-) 2 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action)
Blink 1 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action)
Enlarge Self 4KPs/ 2 Round (Swift Action)
Bigby’s Forceful Hand 1KP
Mislead 2KPs/ 2 Round (Swift Action)
Energy Restistance +5 2 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action) Choose one Type
Brilliant Energy 4 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action) (As part of a full attack/FoB; Subtract 2 attack, and bypass armor and shield bonus to AC)
Disruption 2 KPs/ 1 Attack (Swift Action)(DC= 10+ ½ Monk Level)
Energy Attack 2 KPs/ 1 Round (Swift Action) (Add 1d6 damage of any one type to attacks until the beginning of your next turn)
Yeah, I know it is mostly combat related.
OK, so, as far as KPs go, I think they should be added in as the monk progresses through the levels. Most are pretty monkish IMO. I don’t expect all of these to be added on, they are simply a list of things that would improve the class. One thing that is for sure. The monk needs more Ki Powers and points to accomplish them.
Does anyone have any improvements to this list, or non combat ideas?
Yes, *please* some alternative class features which go less into the mystic monk and more into the wuxia monk.
Actually, I´d love to see a non-monk martial artist class, but I guess that´d be something for a future supplement.