Good stuff...
All I can say is, Epic Meepo is my clone. Or I'm a clone of Epic Meepo. Or maybe we're both clones of some other person.
I'm in favor of all 3 options (as pointed out by Epic Meepo) but not necessarily together. In quick Summery, Epic = 21+ play to me. Not a new system (godhood), not a campaign planning aid (kingdom rule).
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o1.) I [and my regular group] would really like to see a smooth continuation of the normal rules out past 20th or even 30th. We know this as Epic (uppercase E) and have enjoyed playing up to that level (from 1st to about 25th before the DM shipped off). There are... issues with the standing 3.0 Epic rules but I think full blown breakdown and reassembly for 21+ game play belongs in its own thread.
o3.) This is good, I was and still am a big fan of what the Birthright setting tried to do, what Paizo had in limited form in Pathfinder #3. Nation building, international and interplaner politics, and other epic (lower case e) things should not be the solo province of Epic. The problem I have seen with most 1-20 games is that they don't normally give Players time or incentive to engage on that level. Either the campaign is to fast (time line wise) or is to mobile. There is also the problem of boredom, not everyone likes participating in those kinds of epic stories. Just as not everyone likes playing those levels above 20th with 'more math'.
o2.) The 3e Deities and Demigods did not do a very good job of linking up with the normal rules. Don't read me wrong, I like them very much, but it was very much focused on presenting gods with stats, not letting Players run around as godlings. I think Paizo already has a foot in this door with the Pathfinder Chronicles setting, so it would be nice to see Hero-deity options that can expand into full blown godhood. This is a secondary system that could be added to a game. Not just godhood but other similar things, take Thassilon Runemagic which I would call epic but is not 21+ in character level.
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It seems that there are three possible directions that epic-level rules could take. In no particular order, we have:
Option 3: Nation Building. Characters get new resources instead of new abilities. They now lead armies, churches, guilds, and nations, allowing them to interact indirectly with the world on a grand scale.
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Option 3 is a classic that has been much-overlooked in recent D&D history. However, it also creates problems, since it's possible for a 1st-level character to lead a nation, so there's no level cut-off for epic play. I also have trouble seeing nation-building fitting into the type of stories that Paizo wants to tell in its adventure paths. These rules...
Let's presume that people are happily buying the APs and the Paizo folk don't need a 'Nation Building' book to write them. That book would still appeal to people who want to run Pathfinder but like to write their own adventures, and hence never buy pre-written. So Paizo increases their market.
Option 3 is a classic that has been much-overlooked in recent D&D history. However, it also creates problems, since it's possible for a 1st-level character to lead a nation, so there's no level cut-off for epic play. I also have trouble seeing nation-building fitting into the type of stories that Paizo wants to tell in its adventure paths. These rules might be better left to third-party publishers.
It's not really that there haven't been rules for this kind of thing, but I don't think they're great sellers (e.g. Birthright, Power of Faerun).
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I'll copy/paste Lathiira's answer from the duplicate thread, as it pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.
Points 2, 5 and 6 are a priority.Things I'd want to see in the Pathfinder Epic rules:
1) Truly epic magic. I don't mind slapping together new spells, but I want something that doesn't look like a jigsaw puzzle and feel like the solution to a differential equation. I want magic to move mountains, build cloud cities on real clouds, part oceans, and battle the mightiest of foes.
2) Class features. Actual class features, not just a bunch of feats that are more of the same or absolutely bizarre.
3) Foes that are truly epic, not just a mound of HD so high that the calculator starts to weep when it sees them. Dragons are naturally mythical, fantastic, even epic. A mound of feathers with Charisma drain? Not so much.
4) Prestige classes that are also truly epic, for characters who have already attained the power of their regular classes. The ones in the ELH? Not really epic feeling overall, though some of their abilities were getting there (like the juggernaut's ability to go through a wall of force).
5) Epic magic items. Heaven forbid, even artifact creation.
6) The ability to do epic things. Things like found your own kingdom, ascend to godhood, become a legend, and so on. Some of this can be done pre-epic, but include some details and ideas.
7) Good integration of pre-epic and epic levels is a must. Material to guide a DM from the below-20 to post-20 levels. How do you transition between the two? What can you expect?
Actually for me points 1 through 6 are equally valid, as is 7 if Paizo decides to design that way. There are definite advantages to either continuing from level 20 or starting Epic at level 1 - I'm good with either type of book.
I'm going to throw this out there, and probably make myself unpopular in the process.
First - before 3rd edition, when someone said "epic," I always attached that to a large, long, dramatic story. Dances With Wolves, Gone with the Wind, the entire Star Wars saga, all epic. D&D by its very nature is epic, regardless of what level play we're talking about, so for starters, I'd say find a new name.
Second - I'm assuming that Pathfinder has found a way to solve the difficulties with high level play with 3.x. If you don't solve that problem first, I don't see much of a reason to make a continuation since few people would actually use those rules. Level 15, in my opinion, shouldn't be much more difficult to play than level 8. That's going to take some work and I hope you guys have this one figured out.
Third - Human skill progression is not infinite. A carpenter who has been at his trade for years might be significantly better than many other carpenters, but there is an upper limit to the level of skill he's able to develop. That doesn't mean that skill progression stops, but it does hit a bit of a plateau. I think that if my second point is true, then you don't want to mess it up by introducing a system where things eventually get back out of control anyway. How would I accomplish this?
* Start varying the benefits you gain at each level. The fighter doesn't always get a +1 to BAB at every level. You don't get the full number of skill points that you would otherwise receive according to class. Saving throws progress more slowly. New class abilities beyond this point might become nonexistent or more abstract - tie them into roleplaying (gain a new ally, gain a favor from the gods, etc). Hit points continue to increase, but more slowly. The corollary to this is that with every level, something does increase. Levelling should never be a completely joyless process.
* Include a few new impressive things each class can do. Think epic spellcasting, minus the complications, but adding quest elements that make it difficult. These aren't things they can do at will, but rather, when certain conditions are met. Accomplishing these things might be the focus of several adventures.
* A good chunk of the book should cover the theory of high level games. Plot should come first, so maybe the characters are assumed to be in positions of leadership at these levels. What sorts of adversaries do high level characters fight?
* Provide possible endgame scenarios. Maybe a group just wants to keep adventuring forever - that's cool - but what if they want to end the game by becoming gods? There should be some suggested paths to meet that goal. What if they want to conquer the world? Maybe include some crude but effective mass combat rules. What if they want to achieve immortality? Offer suggested paths for that. I'm sure there are other possible endgame objectives that I'm just not thinking of at the moment.
Anyway, that's a rough sketch of the direction I'd go with this. If I had my way, the initial 1 - 20 progression would be more like a 1 - 40 progression to arrive at the same power level, but that would require a major revision of the rules, which I don't think is in the cards right now.
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I'm going to throw this out there, and probably make myself unpopular in the process.
*snip*
* Provide possible endgame scenarios. Maybe a group just wants to keep adventuring forever - that's cool - but what if they want to end the game by becoming gods? There should be some suggested paths to meet that goal. What if they want to conquer the world? Maybe include some crude but effective mass combat rules. What if they want to achieve immortality? Offer suggested paths for that. I'm sure there are other possible endgame objectives that I'm just not thinking of at the moment.
Nope, it's good.
The point I quoted I thought insightful: give ways to finish the story off. There has to be an end for it to be a story. Time... to die. It's something that needs to be addressed, and something I hadn't thought about explicitly until I saw it written.
Heh, if anyone's reading this far...
Epic needs the following, for me:
1. An "epic" feel to it - It's not just "level 21, same old thing, gimme a few more HP and a couple skills and let's go hit another monster." 3.x Epic rules did a great job of changing the feel (though I think it failed on other fronts).
1a. New feats (or otherwise generic abilities available to all) that do things non-epic people can't do (shoot through walls, stand in lava, breathe underwater, lift elephants (or tarrasques), hear a pin drop a mile away, etc.
1b. New class features for existing classes (fighters damage increases, barbarians can rage at warp speed, rangers can shoot twice as many arrows, or whatever - note, those are seat-of-the-pants examples not meant to be taken entire literally).
1c. New magic (spells, items, etc.) that expands the limit of what could already be done. I'm not talking about bigger fireballs or super wishes. I'm talking about battlefield areas of effect, town-killer, mountain-flatteners, etc. Not a +6 sword, but add new "epic" magic items that do things that aren't just improved non-epic abilities.
1d. New prestige classes. Cool stuff that isn't just a different way to be a wizard or rogue, but that actually bring new and "epic" concepts into play that keep them in line with 1b. above, but different enough to be apprciated. Prestige Classes like "Archmage" should be epic, not just available to every old mage past level 8, and they should do stuff that makes ordinary mages, even those around 20th level, stare in awe.
2. The ability to continue the story line. It can't feel so "epic" (see point #1 above) that everyone hits level 21 and suddenly stops caring about their homeland because nothing there is a threat or challenge, so now they have to sail off into the planes and kill celestial entities. "Well, now that I've prestiged into King's High Champion, I'm gonna bop over to Bytopia and wrestle me some demigods! You villagers better hire some newbie adventurers to save you from those beholders; I'm done with baby stuff!" There should be bigger dragons, deadlier demons, wickeder (sic) undead, etc., along with some new stuff too. 3.x failed miserably in this.
3. In consideration of #1 and #2, the basic game mechanics must remain the same. BAB and saves still follow their normal progression, DCs for skills and saves continue their normal progression, moster CR means what it used to mean before turning epic, etc. So going from level 25 to 26 should be pretty much the same precess as going from level 15 to 16 (although the feats and other abilities might be significantly more "epic", how you gain them, and how you gain other core features like HP and Skills, need not change). 3.x failed miserably here, too.
That would be a truly epic undertaking, but it would be worthy extension of existing heroes in existing campaigns, but with a truly epic feel.
There are so many possibilities by the time 20th level is reached that any new epic HB should probably have a few variant rules so that epic levels can be tailored to the flavor of the campaign and the tastes of the players. It is unlikely that a game will run to epic levels with players who haven't aligned themselves to play one way (nation-building "phenomenal cosmic power") or another (better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster).
IDEA -->
Epic levels can progress seamlessly just adding BAB, base saves, etc. much like the ELH. Now, also include a "PC can take a -10 penalty to apply his skill/attack, etc. to apply to his/her organization."
Example: My 25th level rogue can go to Sigil and epicly Gather Information or I can take a -10 to my roll and my Thieve's Guild . . . er, I mean, my Research & Acquistion Dept., can report back to me what they find. Attacks could be your armies instead of you.
I don't necessarily mean -10 for everything, but I think it gets the idea across. Players who want to continue to hack it up (I'm not hatin', just describing) can continue to do so. Those who want nation-building scope can use the -10 effect. That way, if they ever do need to actually take the field, they are more impressive than their assests/minions.
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OTOH, I always liked the Immortal Rules. I would use them at 30th level. So, I would support optional rules that allow for deification after 30th. The quests from the Master's Rules would be a must. Heck, I don't let my PC's advance to 21st until they've taken a bath in The Pool of Radiance (tm) [fighter sweeps - fighter sweeps - fighter sweeps - {can we say, "origins of the Cleave feat?}] or some such device. The normal mortal form requires bolstering to bear the awesome power of epichoodness.
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18th level cleric vs. 25th level cleric: Who runs the church?
Darth Vader could have maced Grand Moff Tarkin at any time, yet Vader obeys Tarkin's orders. The person with the most AUTHORITY is not always the same person with the most POWER.
Others:
Merlin & Arthur
Gandalf & Aragorn
Bond & M
Why not freeze regular character progressions...
- No additions to BAB or fortitude, will, reflex, etc. to cut down on some math.
- Instead, have characters choose from spheres of epic feats.
- Each feat allows the character to do something "game breaking" equivalent to a lower level spell or some current OGL epic level spell. (Similar in a sense to the 4E powers).
Through parceling out such benefits, the players can advance characters in meaningful ways. Players choose what benefits they receive.
Little is lost by eliminating extra mathematics that don't allow for player-choice. Choice is fun, adding numbers is not (and is often done incorrectly.)
This also makes creating monsters less of a mathematical headache. Create some rotateable feats for epic monsters (mind control, stop time, etc.) and value each at a level of 1-10, then GMs can mix-match.
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Another idea: Players earn "epic points" instead of experience points. Each time they do something "epic" they gain a "power point" to invest in epic powers/feats. This rewards GMs and Players who imagine an Epic scope to a game and encourages "exalted-like" actions.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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When I think of epic rules (and I agree that a better name would be a good idea) I think of characters evolving into something beyond what a mere mortal can do. This doesn't necessarily mean demigods though.
What really comes to mind is Pug and Thomas from the Raymond Fiest books. In the initial series, they are low level standard mortal adventurers. By the end of that series, Pug has mastered a level of magic beyond what other spellcasters can use, and Thomas has bonded with an artifact level suit of armor and tapped into the powers of an elder race. Later books in the series don't feature them as main characters, but when they are featured in their own adventures (as opposed to being mentors and setting new heroes on the right path, etc.) they face threats to the universe, full scale demonic invasions, travel to places beyond the normal scope of planar travel (such as planar nexuses that are shortcuts to all planes or the beginning of the universe.)
How I would interpret this mechanically is that 20th level is the upper limit of standard mortal characters. If a character advances to 21st level, then they have to select an epic prestige class that defines in which way they have broken through to a new level of consciousness. This could include bonding with an artifact, the demigod route, gaining insight into a new level of magical power, etc. After 21st level, they continue to develop powers associated with their chosen route and develop abilities beyond the standard set of powers 1-20th level characters can achieve. (BTW, if this has any resemblance to 4E epic destinies, I wouldn't know.)
I'd like to see an epic book detail how to make threats and locations that simply are beyond lower level characters from interacting with, finding, or being able to harm. One thing I definately don't want to see if magic items suddenly jump exponentially in price/creation costs. I don't want to see a +11 sword being 1 million gold more than a +10 sword (I don't think I want to see a +11 sword at all.) For that matter, any 'epic' magic items should simply not be purchasable. You can give them creation costs for the various resources needed to make them, but they should be like artifacts in that they are unique and can't have a price put to them.
Beyond this, I don't have specific thoughts on the mechanics, but I'd trust Paizo to get it right.
On Epic Magic Items...
Just an idle wonder. These should not be purchasable in most people's campaigns unless you're wandering in the planes and a Mercane pops out of the woodwork.
Instead, Epic Magic Items can only be created by Epic Wizards in certain circumstances- OR infused into player's already existing weapons (Weapons of Legacy-style evolution) when they slay a particularly magical or powerful being. By doing that, the players' gear takes on extra-special qualities, once again determinable and moddable by a long list of rated and evaluated "powers" that can be swapped between items.
ex:
The +5 Sword that slay a powerful demilich takes on an ochre glow and emits Finger of Death every time it is used on someone.
Why?
The demilich, in its dying throes, attempted to activate a contingency Finger of Death spell on the hero, and instead, the power became absorbed by the highly unstable, and highly magical sword.
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ex:
The +5 Sword that slay a powerful demilich takes on an ochre glow and emits Finger of Death every time it is used on someone.Why?
The demilich, in its dying throes, attempted to activate a contingency Finger of Death spell on the hero, and instead, the power became absorbed by the highly unstable, and highly magical sword.
I like this. A lot!
I can think of it generating stories to tell, too.
Player 1: Yeah, well I have a +3 flaming burst longsword of speed!
Player 2: Interesting... My sword's only a +5 but when I fought a demilich, I struck the killing blow and my sword absorbed some of its power. It affects things I hit with a finger of death and it glows a really sick green!
Player 1: *drooling*
Okay, this is strange, but I've never really been interested in running a campaign above 20th level, but at the same time, we need some epic rules for handling villains above that level.
I really don't want those levels to change drastically. While I could easily see powers that let you cut through non epic encounters, doing this then makes the epic rules problematic for making up villains.
Honestly, I'm fine with them as is, except for epic level magic, which is just headache inducing and dangerously abstract in a game that is really built for a lot more precise definition of things.
And I agree, until I can see the final high level options in PFRPG, it will be hard to figure out what epic level characters should do. I guess in general though, I'm voting for the gradual increase in existing themes instead of a completely wild jump in power.
The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Any deal breakers?
Personally, I've never been one of those folks who enjoys the game much past 10th-12th level. Epic has always striken me as cheesy, and I think any attempts to "uncheese" it are doomed to failure. Epic is for the folks who want to go wild with their game, become gods and the like.
However, I think it is mechanically wrong for 1st to 20th level to progress linearly and for "epic" levels to progress exponentially. At the very least, epic would be more appealing if it increased linearly.
Overall, I would say shy away from Epic. Make the 1st-20th level game work really well and that's all we really need.
*snip*
18th level cleric vs. 25th level cleric: Who runs the church?Darth Vader could have maced Grand Moff Tarkin at any time,...
I've always chalked that up to Lucas not really having the whole story fleshed out properly. If he had, I'm sure vader would have treated Tarkin more like he treated the officers in Empire Strikes Back.
I'm sure vader would have treated Tarkin more like he treated the officers in Empire Strikes Back.Not if Tarkin was appointed and favored by the Emperor, Vader wouldn't.
In which case Tarkin is not in power because of his title, but because someone stronger than Vader wanted Tarkin in power. I'm sure if Tarkin had survived the destruction of the Death Star, Vader would have been able to kill him.
This does translate to a church, because the god is stronger than the 25th level cleric and also grants him his powers. But make it a king instead. Can't really have all the DM's important PCs suddenly favored by the gods, then what would be the point of the PCs.
On the epic topic:
A few more things, I don't want level limits. I had fun statting the Dark Eight to around a CR 60-70 Range. Bel, He was around 80 or so, but that is because he is one of the Lords of the Nine. hmmm... I'm gonna have to do a one shot where the epic pc's take on one of the Dark Eight.
So no level limits on the PCs. Gradual increase in power, either keep it the same as 1-20 or slow it down a little more (why not? there are no level caps).
But as others have requested, That should be the small part of the book. The rest should deal with DM'ing tips and player tips. Maybe tie it into a system where you lead vast armies, run kingdoms, or found a planar spanning organization.
There must be an adventure path or two or three or more that go into the epic levels. I think having an adventure path 2-3 modules that start in the low 20's and advance the character to somewhere in the 30's.
I can see level's 1-20 where the PC's at level 20 finally bring down the main villian only to find out that he was just a pawn of Orcus and so really, they have been fighting Orcus the whole time. Maybe the villian didn't know he was being played by Orcus.
Think "Batman Begins". For the first 10 levels the PCs are fighting against Falcony, only to find out that Scarecrow is the real villian. So they spend the next 10 or so levels going after him, only to find out that Ra's Al Ghul is the real power behind Scarecrow, and without Ra's Al Ghul Scarecrow isn't really that bad or powerful. So they then spend a few levels into epic (or more if you prefer) going after Ra's Al Ghul.
I also think that NPC villians should advance in level as well. Take batman for example. When the PC's are first level Falcony is level 5. When they are 5th level, he is level 8. When they are 10th so is Falcony. At this time Scarecrow is 13th level. They meet up or are close in level by 20th. This would allow a villian to last longer and be different at every encounter instead of having a villian way off and the PCs sprint to get to his level then kill him.
I remember the Companion Rules making an excellent point about PC rulers not gaining XP for the gold they acquired through taxes. That was back when you earned experience for the loot you, ahem, liberated. Back in the Big 80's, when greed was good and TSR stood for (T)he (S)erious (R)iches. The point being, you couldn't just sit on your butt leveling while hoes worked with your peasants. Erm, I mean, of course, when your peasants worked with hoes.
Maybe King Buck Falls was headed for epicishness, but got side-tracked with ruling the kingdom with Lady Good Birthing Hips, leaving the way open for you, dear Studly McNutts, to grave rob & tomb raid your way to honor & glory.
Example -->
Gandalf the Grey fights the Balrog.
He's gone for eras, epochs, ages, eons, whatever, it's long enough to forget what people called him.
He returns as Gandalf the White but for everyone else on Middle Earth, its only been a few weeks.
Leaves a 20th level wizard. Returns Epic. Small wonder the kings of the world haven't kept pace. And once you go to the planes, its easy enough to monkey with different time rates.
I would like Epic Level for my group (I'm the DM) to be all about options in that it would present a variety of ways to advance characters beyond 20th level. The options mentioned above all sound perfectly reasonable depending on which paths the players would like to take their characters--and which challenges the DM would like to throw at them.
For the players, referring to other thoughts from previous posters:
- Do you want to advance your character in stats? The book should provide rules (and alternatives) for how to do it, including the things which a character would need to perform/acquire in order to exceed the normal boundaries of racial physiology and fantasy world "physics". Same for epic prestige classes.
- Do you want to advance your character to demi-god status, or perhaps eventually become a god? The guidebook should provide options and alternatives for doing so, possibly by completing quests that are of amazing impact on the world/cosmos. There should be plane- and cosmos-shattering advancement criteria to gain some of these benefits. I envision that any ascension to demi-god or god status would also require followers. A separate "Deities and Demigod" book might be needed here, but basic rules for a bridge to godhood could be provided.
- Do the players want to lead kingdoms, build alliances, establish knightly orders, run an assassin's cartel? Some options for this would make sense, especially for playgroups that prefer less superhero and more court intrigue.
For the DM of epic play, I'd need two things:
- A campaign guide for Golarion that provides a sandbox view of the cosmos and the planar worlds that my players would interact with at epic level. What amazing vistas does epic play open up? What would be the major threats in this sandbox? Who would need help? Who enforces "the rules"?
- Adventure ideas and plots! What would epic players do? If players could "bend time", what historical events could the players go back and change, and what impact might this have on the world. What gods need help, and with what sorts of challenges?
Anyways, just thoughts.
Hurm.
Things ramp up quickly from 15-20. I'd like to see this smoothed out. The rules more streamlined and coherent. The same needs said of epic-level play.
I wouldn't mind some of the raw power from 15+ being spread out somewhat up to 25 if it meant that the game could keep going. Some better pace needs established, so it's possible to go even above 30.
OTOH, if Paizo can beat some sense into high level play, then I'd feel more comfortable about playing an epic-level game.
Another concept might be to approach it as others have suggested: through destinies. Players could have their stats frozen after 20 hit dice, or levels. Then if they wanted to run a nation, there's a destiny sphere for that. Etc.
Give them something that lets players focus on developing high-end concepts. A great warrior could develop in phenomenal strength; this focus becomes their keystone ability/concept/phenomenal trait that truly sets him or her ahead of the pack. Similar to gods (but not), a PC could pick areas of influence similar to a god's portfolio. So, they could develop their Law aspect, or Strength, or so forth and so on. Again, just using the portfolio as a metaphor.
This wouldn't make them a god (though a DM could ramp it up so they /were/). It's more a conceptual tool than anything else. Alexander the Great might choose to be a great tool of Law and Leadership.
Eh. A loose idea, but I'm sure it's going somewhere. :)
Ah, but this raises an interesting and relevant point. You don't need to justify the lack of epic-level creatures in positions of power. The non-epic rulers may be in place because the epic characters of the world have better things to do with their time than govern things.
Ah, if only the 4E Forgotten Realms design team had spoken to you before they felt they had to kill off almost every major NPC in the setting.
Definitely a good point.
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I really like a lot of Darrin Drader's comments above. (Don't want to waste space quoting it all.) But I did want to address this plateau thing. I posted previously the thought of new special abilities that were of epic-level character feel, not just an improvement over the old. A lot of people have posted epic level feats as an option.
I'm not really adverse to seeing BAB and F/R/W continue to accrue along a same track as levels 1-20. If anything, it makes whipping up an epic-level character a lot easier. (I would keep the limit of iterative attacks down to 4. In fact, I actually liked Star Wars Saga Edition's idea of doing away with iterative attacks altogether . . . but for feats!) . . . anyhow back on track
What about a mechanism by which epic level allow you to either take a new feat each level. There are just so many feats out there, and so many that don't give "significant" bonuses, that I don't see why an epic level character couldn't reach a benchmark though which she could start to accrue them and a quickened pace. I certainly don't think that this would be imbalancing. Thoughts?
Epic to me is when the PCs become (mortal) gods striding the planet, living legends that will be remembered for hundreds or even thousands of years. Sure, some 20th level folk might have that same level of impact, but not as much as Diamond Fist, the 36th level monk that sundered the Clockwork Jade Army of Xi Dao single-handedly after fighting them for a year and a day to prevent their invasion of Vudra (for example...).
An Pf Epic book for me should do two things:
1) Show the progression after 20th level of the core classes with benefits continuing and spells per day increasing. As an ode to the olden days, make the top level before godhood level 36. I'd like to see it as a smooth progression, with no geometric power jump from 20 to 21. Gradually in the low 20s the character becomes more and more powerful just like in 1-20.
2) Explain how such a character would interact with the world - how to run a large organization, the responsibilities involved, plots that could bring them out of their semi-retirement (Ancient aliens invade! Sleeping Old Ones awaken! Extra-dimensional assault on Golarion!).
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Okay, this is strange, but I've never really been interested in running a campaign above 20th level, but at the same time, we need some epic rules for handling villains above that level.
If it is intended that the finished Pathfinder book will contain a table of sample stats for NPCs of each of the classes (like the 3.5 DMG) for the DM to use in rapidly building villains, I'd suggest that the table top out at CR25 with a simple extension of the current classes and no intention of matching whatever Paizo does with Epic. This gives us our 20th level party challenging foes off the starting blocks.
Perhaps have one suitable evil capstone for each of these that only villains get?
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Ah, but this raises an interesting and relevant point. You don't need to justify the lack of epic-level creatures in positions of power. The non-epic rulers may be in place because the epic characters of the world have better things to do with their time than govern things.Ah, if only the 4E Forgotten Realms design team had spoken to you before they felt they had to kill off almost every major NPC in the setting.
Definitely a good point.
Well said!
One of the strange things about "epic" right now, is that you get a different character if you go Wizard 20 then Fighter 20 than if you go Fighter 20 then Wizard 20 (BAB/attacks are WAY different). Whatever rules are developed should fix that.
The highest I have played to is level 26, but I would be curious as to the highest anyone here on the Paizo boards has played to.
I think that the rules should not be finite (i.e., there should be no level cap).
The best way to design the epic rules might be to pick a CR 33 adversary (e.g. Demogorgon from Dragon #357) and figure out what's needed from PCs to make this a good 30th (and also 33rd) level challenge.
As stated (if I figure correctly), Demogorgon will do an average of 160 points of damage (plus energy drain and rot) on a full attack, and have a 95% chance to hit with all attacks on someone with AC 35 or lower. Therefore, a fighter going toe-to-toe with this baddie should probably have an AC of 45(ish) and, considering Demo's 59 AC, an attack bonus of +44 to +49 (ish). Oh, and if he's going to last 3 rounds, he'll probably want at least 320 hit points, and the ability to make a Fortitude save with a DC of 46. Etc.
In other words, "beginning with the end in mind" (i.e. what we want combat to look like) is probably the best way to proceed.
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(edited)
Erik Mona:Is this a brain-storming session to identify new/old ideas which may be of use for PFRPG, a rain-check to assess what 'camps' your messageboard posters fall into (in which case why not get the PostMonster General to whip up a poll for you to accompany this thread? ;)) and/or both or something more?
A poll consisting of what people though of a selection of the WotC books : Power of Faerun, Book of Nine Swords, Heroes of Battle - the ones that affected 'style' of game plus a 'categorise yourself':
a) "First I slay the monsters, then I gain the loot, then I get the levels"
b) "Ok we have 10 mins left, do you want me to do XP's or do you want to know if the lovers you saved from her fathers ninjas successfully elope?" "Story please DM!"
c) "Right, now we have defeated the master of the thieves guild, we hide any trace of us having done so and we assume his identity. We want to start infiltrating the imperial court. Is that OK DM?"
This might gather some valuable info for Paizo to target us more accurately.
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The highest I have played to is level 26, but I would be curious as to the highest anyone here on the Paizo boards has played to.
The highest i've played is up to 50, and our current game we're 24 now, but the DM expressed that we'll be going near 40.
In our group, going THAT high is not a regular thing at all. We regularly stop between 25 - 30. That is, we always play into epic levels. We also play 6 hours/session, twice a week, every week.. so we go up in levels pretty fast compared to others that play once a week or bi-weekly.
At that level, we're the movers and shakers of the planes, the instruments of the gods, and nation builders. When it's all said and done, it typically involves our characters retiring, leaving the material plane.
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The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
Well, I played a character from level 1-29 back when 3e first came out, before the "Epic" handbook was released. We had simply continued along with normal character progression, though we "had" to multiclass at 21st level (easier than trying to continue the base classes).
I think that "Epic" storytelling occurs at various levels. As DM, I've had characters found cities/nations, become proxies/demigods, and start a religious revival - all at levels below 20th. There doesn't need to be uber-power rules to allow such events.
Class-wise, I think the base classes should be able to continue on after level 20, though I'd rather see more abilities gained than simply have "increase x ability by 1" or "bonus epic feat" as per the 3ed Epic book.
Perhaps an idea may be to focus upon various Prestige Classes? Similar to spellcasting PrCs, there could be a "+1 to level" ability (allowing monk's AC bonus, fighter's weapon bonus, paladin smite, etc, to increase) and have more class-generic PrCs such as "Demigod of Trickery" or "Prime Guardian".
Just tossing some ideas out there.
Well said!Ah, but this raises an interesting and relevant point. You don't need to justify the lack of epic-level creatures in positions of power. The non-epic rulers may be in place because the epic characters of the world have better things to do with their time than govern things.Ah, if only the 4E Forgotten Realms design team had spoken to you before they felt they had to kill off almost every major NPC in the setting.
Definitely a good point.
Seconded or thirded, oh whatever, this is a really good point!
The highest i've played is up to 50, and our current game we're 24 now, but the DM expressed that we'll be going near 40.
Wow!
What did your character classes look like at 50?
I'm sure vader would have treated Tarkin more like he treated the officers in Empire Strikes Back.Not if Tarkin was appointed and favored by the Emperor, Vader wouldn't.In which case Tarkin is not in power because of his title, but because someone stronger than Vader wanted Tarkin in power. I'm sure if Tarkin had survived the destruction of the Death Star, Vader would have been able to kill him.
This does translate to a church, because the god is stronger than the 25th level cleric and also grants him his powers. But make it a king instead. Can't really have all the DM's important PCs suddenly favored by the gods, then what would be the point of the PCs.
Tarkin was a governor, which the emperor needed in order to keep up the facade that the senate still had power (while he quelled the rebellion)
The emporer had duel identities, and there for two heirachies to run.Vader was techincally not part of his "government".
So if the emporer (lets say king) was secretly a a Lich, who used illusionary powers to hide his undead status, then Grand Moff Tarkin would have been the "Vizier" or "Steward" to the throne, while the Lich was well being a Lich (sith)
Vader would have been the Death Knight, every one was very suspicious about,and for that reason, The emporer didn't use Vader in a front line diplomatic role, because well Vader wasnt good at that.
Death Kinght at a state of the union address :
"Excuse me, umm errr Mr. Vader, what do you plan on doing about the current rebellion?"
"Kill them ALL and then eat their brains!"
Not very diplomatic.
Theoretically, a 25th level cleric has spent all his time out adventuring and not spending much time politicing inside the church.
His long absences would have had him passed up for political prmtions like being head of the church, so You would be looking at someone n th 15th level range with alot of points in diplomacy, bluff and religion.
Even when the legendary hero Oddysseus was gone and not returned from the trojan war, mere normal men sought over his seat as king.
Character level does not mean king.
Now in a chaotic evil set up, the ogre with the biggest club is boss.
So you would be hard pressed to find a 10th level church leader if there was someone bigger and badder around.
But Lawful societies, even lawful evil ones, may very well have "weaker" people in positions of power.
Think about it. Could Mike Tyson kick Obamas Butt? Why isnt he president?
Because if Mike Tyson were asked what we should do about the war in Iraq he might answer "KiLL them all and eat their brains"
One of the things that will be a challenge for new epic rules is the fact that more than ever in the updated rules, the base classes reach a pinnacle of skill at 20th level.
Epic to me has always meant more grandiose than more powerful.
I don't beleive that Epic should undermine the pinnacle that it is reached at 20th level.
The mechanics of Epic play shouldn't be so far removed from the standard progression as to make the two are incompatible, but I think a definite distinction should be made between the two levels of the game.
Something similar to the Legendary paths rules found in Dawnforge: Crucible of Legends may be something to build off of. The rules related material in the book is OGL, so its something to look into for certain.
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I am going to add my vote for more of a immortal rules feel, recreate your PCs using new epic rules then off you go into the epic world.
i think a book for all three camps would sell very well, if they could fit it all the info into one book we kno we would all buy it, but they need to fix the high lvl play 1st before moving us on to epic.
I'd actually prefer if the epic level book just covered levels 15-20 (or so). More monsters in the CR 15-25 range, some NPC templates or other rules for making classed characters a little more uber with divine favor/ritual sacrifice/whatever (so the big bad can keep threatening PCs approaching level 20), rules for magical rituals that do more than a wish, more artifacts, tips on how to manage plane-hopping / etherealness / divinations / teleportation and other high level tricks, and advice for making truly epic world-shattering storylines with divine ascension, kingdom-forging, and assaults on gods and demon lords.
I'd be very interested in such a book, but there's no reason it needs to actually extend the levels of play. Just make the class progressions we already have more epic.
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How I would interpret this mechanically is that 20th level is the upper limit of standard mortal characters. If a character advances to 21st level, then they have to select an epic prestige class that defines in which way they have broken through to a new level of consciousness. This could include bonding with an artifact, the demigod route, gaining insight into a new level of magical power, etc. After 21st level, they continue to develop powers associated with their chosen route and develop abilities beyond the standard set of powers 1-20th level characters can achieve.
I like this a lot. It also leads nicely into demi-godhood at some point. Also kinda' like what liches have to go through. So to jump from 20 to 21, you'd have to go through some kind of a trial or process or experience. Nice filter to keep every (as if there were so many) 20th level dude from becoming epic.
Other than that, I generally prefer levels 21+ as a continuation of 1-20 so I wouldn't have to re-invent the character I've just spent forever on. Unless "rogue epic 1" freezes the old stats like BAB and skills, etc., and starts adding totally new abilities so there is not continuity issue. I guess this would kinda go with the above idea; at 21 you're not getting to be a better Rogue, you're working on your new Time Bandit abilities.
The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
I completely agree. I simply refuse to run Epic Level games under the default 3.X edition rules even though I am not opposed to the idea as a concept.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do.
Thank God!
What are you looking for conceptually?
That's a good question. I guess I want characters that have powers to do even more mind-bending things than in the core level range. That means, I want them to be able to move the moon, to rearrange planes, design new species, change physical laws and create new sources of power like magic. That is what I imagine under epic abilities - not the ability to have a more powerful fireball (or all-energy-ball or whatever it was called). The same goes for foes and their abilities - they need to be able to corrupt or curse entire races, drain oceans and so on. That should also mean that the various arch-enemies (archdemons, archdevils, etcetera) ought to be in the epic level range.
What are you looking for mechanically?
Mechanically, I am looking to a system that meshes well with the core levels. That means that I want to be able to take a 22nd level character and plunge him into a game with 19th level characters and the mechanics should be compatible. Although I do see the advantages of starting anew, this is difficult to achieve at best if there is a restart where 21st level characters are the new 1st level epic characters.
I also want to have class features for epic levels, rather than a bunch of feats. I also don't want a whole new spell system that is nothing like a spell system used in the core levels. On top of that, I am looking for some degree of balance. There also needs to be a final level cap even with epic levels.
QUOTE="Erik Mona"] Any deal breakers?
Yes, a tacked-on, unbalanced, inconsistent and boring system, like the Epic Level Handbook. A restart where 21st core level = 1st epic level is not inherently a dealbreaker in and off itself, but it has disadvantages that combined with other disadvantages could form a dealbreaker.
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I had this in another thread, but it applies here. I definitely believe this. Every word of it. Call me crazy.
The Paizo staff has always said that if 4th Edition interferred with the stories they wanted to tell, they would not support it (at least with Pathfinder). If you look at what epic games do to story telling, this would also be true. Paizo will have a ridiculously hard time telling their stories in this system as it is.
The stories of Epic Kings and Legendary Heroes of the Gods is certainly appealing to a writer that wishes to bridge beyond time and space. There is a lot to be had in those lofty places that are just unrealistic for a 14th Level Character to conceive. The "true mission" of bringing Epic Roleplaying to the table is in capturing the roleplaying element in a higher hemisphere that befits one being not only a legend but perhaps also becoming a demigod. If I could start as a First Level Rogue and end as a God in the PRPG, that would be truly incredible. If Paizo could somehow keep "telling the stories they wish to tell" within that frame of advancement, it would be completely mindblowing. I cannot imagine how much unleashed creativity would be wrought on the RPG hobby from such a successful venture. It could bridge into a new milieu of thought that would define a new gendre of gaming.
I mean,
How many people want to be a KING? With Armies? Castles? Kingdoms?
How many people want to be a High Priest? With disciples? Temples?
How many people want to be a a son of a God? With powers?
How many people would like to challenge a GOD? With Godly Weapons?
Of course this is not D&D as we know it now. And the idea of it all sounds completely beyond the game. I am sure all these things have been conceived. I am also fairly sure they ran poorly or topical at best.
But what if it played the same as being 1st level, again?
What if it was no more complex or gamer smart than what we already have now at the "below 14th level mark?"
What if you could tell epic stories as easily as you can now with a first level character party?
That is the challenge and the way to attack this problem. I am fairly certain if Paizo says, "We can tell the stories we wish to tell in an Epic Level system", than they have boldly solved what 3.5 could not.
I also feel that a conversion of sorts to "buy in" super feats by selling off mini (normal) feats could dwarf the headaches. This would also apply to skills, spells and the like. I think the most important part to creating a good epic game is setting the parameters in which the game can work within and then going about slashing the complexity off what the 3.5/PRPG system created. The goal is fairly simple, make it play like a 1st level PRPG game that will graduate to a maximum complexity similar to 14th level.
I have not provided any answers to the problems with Epic Play, but I do believe a premise is more important before proceeding to the next step.
Cheers,
Zux
I had another option just occur to me - something the folks @ Kenzer did : Hack-level classes, Hackfighter, Hackmage, Hacksassin and the like. 1-20 is the norm, then use something like the Hack idea at 21st (become a 1st level Hack--- with 0 XP but 20 HD worth of HP and saves.
The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Any deal breakers?
Epic play reminds me of that old TSR book Deities and Demigods and how at a certain level DMs start using it like the new monster manual. Except that once you beat those 'monsters' there really isnt any point to playing the game. At least not with those characters.
I'm just not interested in playing past level 20. That's an inherent problem with level based progression games. Eventually you "top out" and have nothing to do except fight monsters with ever-bigger numbers (i.e. stats) in mega-godzilla type fights.