Ever since Jason fixed Turn Undead by making the elegant fix of Channel Energy, Spontaneous Cure/Inflict has bothered me.
Now that Clerics have another pool of healing, spontaneous cure/inflict seemed to be a 'yet more' kind of ability. I mean, it's essentially two abilities that do the exact same thing, and Clerics now have way too much healing available compared to other healing classes.
I'd like to see Spontaneous Casting for clerics stick around, but tie it to that cleric's domains. The old domain spell lists make a good structure for this. So a Cleric of Pelor or Sarenrae could take the Healing domain and have basically the same ability as before (plus another domain!), but clerics of other gods could instead focus on what makes their god special, instead joining the one-size-fits-all positive/negative energy club. And I'm always in favor of things that make clerics of different religions feel mechanically different.
As a bonus, this helps preserve backward compatibility by making sure that clerics with access to non-cleric spells via domains continue to have access to that spell, like Fire Clerics with Burning Hands.
The biggest drawback, as far as I can tell, is that it represents a power boost to the cleric, which is already one of the most powerful base classes. First, it increase the options available to the class, which is generally a power increase by itself as it allows extra mini-maxing. Second, a Healing Cleric (or Death/Destruction cleric) who maintains the old functionality still gets an extra domain on top of it, which is obviously an increase.
Comments, suggestions, ideas?
*bump*
I agree. Clerics have become a bit too good at healing. If someone wants to be a super healer then he can invest a domain into the idea. Otherwise there are all these other cool things clerics can do. It gives the class some diversity.
This patch would also address a longstanding problem I had with Domain spells under 3.5: A fire cleric could cast exactly one Burning Hands each day (or perhaps his other first level domain spell), despite that being the focus of his religion. After his domain spells, he's the same as every other cleric.
Pathfinder already sort of addressed this by changing the way domains work, but I think this would be a nice touch, still. Once again using that fire cleric as an example, they could shoot fire darts all day (Domain power), and convert any unneeded first level spells into Burning Hands to deal with groups. Now THAT's a cleric of a fire god.
A potential problem with implementing this plan is that several of the spells made available in this way have already been reassigned as domain powers as spell-like abilities. However, moving these spells back to a spontaneous spell list might free up space for interesting unique powers for domain powers. Comments?
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I like this idea and it also gives clerics a good reason to take the Healing domain if they truly want to be dedicated healers (+1 CL hardly mattered otherwise unless you were truly trying to squeeze every last drop from the healing lemon). I think that spontaneous domain casting should be the standard option for all clerics, but I also think that there should maybe be a feat added that allows the spontaneous casting of cure/inflict for casters who don't choose the Healing domain.
Comments, suggestions, ideas?
I'm not as keen on this idea as everyone else. Let me explain why in the interests of constructive criticism and all that. If you examine spontaneous casting (as it stands now under PRPG Beta), it's a level playing field. All clerics either get spontaneous cure or spontaneous inflict spells, depending on their affinity for positive/negative energy. That's balanced. And, for the sake of having each priest be different, I think you may inadvertantly sacrifice game balance.
If you decide that a cleric with the Fire domain can spontaneously cast burning hands...that may look good on the surface for that particular cleric. But how does that compare to a cleric with the Knowledge domain? What spell is he going to be able to spontaneously cast that compares with the offensive firepower of burning hands? Divination is trumped by evocation, because detect secret doors just isn't going to work from a balance perspective.
The various clerics are already somewhat different from one another as a result of the domains anyway. There's a big difference between a cleric of Asmodeus with the Fire and Trickery domains versus a priest of Nethys with the Knowledge and Protection domains. They just aren't on equal footing, mechanically-speaking within the game. And, though nothing is ever going to be 100% equal, I don't think you'd want to skew things any further by also granting spontaneous burning hands to one guy while only awarding spontaneous detect magic or sanctuary to the other guy.
So, how would one discard spontaneous cure and inflict in favor of something else? I think you'd have to come up with a set of balanced "specialist" abilities for each domains similar to what Jason did with the wizard's schools. If you're going to let a cleric with the Fire domain spontaneously cast burning hands instead of cure/infict then give the divination- or abjuration-oriented Knowledge and Protection domains something equal in power.
But, keep in mind, if you go that direction...overall, the additional powers granted to each cleric's domain shouldn't be anything more powerful than the spontaneous cure/inflict spellcasting they're giving up. Otherwise, you'll cause the cleric as a whole to become further unbalanced with respect to the other classes...
And lastly, I want to revisit something with the Fire domain guy. His domain is already going to give him fire bolt as a supernatural ability that lets him unleash a fire bolt as a standard action each round. Does he really need the ability to spontaneously cast burning hands as a cone-effect spell on top of that? It's not like he'll run out of flame-throwing capability. He just won't be able to use an area-effect spell like burning hands with his remaining spell slots.
So, I'm not sure that I see the need to come up with a different spell that clerics can spontaneously cast instead of cure/inflict. I understand how spontaneous cure/inflict has become redundant with channeled postive/negative energy effects. And I agree that it could probably be replaced with something. But bringing back domain spells as a replacement for spontaneous casting feels like too much to me.
Maybe an entirely different ability could be generated for clerics instead in which they'd all share equal-footing? Maybe some kind of inspirational, enthrall-like ability to stir up the masses and otherwise convince people to hear out their religious sermons and rants? Maybe give them all some kind of prophetic vision ability or commune capability with their deities through prayer, etc. that's different from the typical divination, augury, etc. spells? I would think there'd be room in those kinds of shared capabilities to find something that replaces spontaneous casting without threating the power balance between different priests or the other classes.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
NSpicer, I'm not really worried about the relative power of various domains. The old lists were already designed to be roughly equal (i.e. getting one Burning Hands would be roughly equal to getting a Magic Stone or a Bless for your first level domain spell.) After all, a 1st level spell is at best a first level spell and at worst a first level spell. All I'm proposing is the ability to channel other spells into these spells. I'm sure that some of them get better in repetition than others, but it seems to me than that can't possibly be worse than, say, playing a Diviner instead of an Evoker.
You concern about further elevating the Cleric above the other classes, though, does worry me.
I therefore, suggest the following: To prevent redundancy (for instance, an Earth Cleric gets extra Magic Stones as a 2nd level domain power, and therefore wouldn't get much out of channeling 1st level spells into Magic Stones), the domain powers would need to be rewritten anyway. I would then suggest that domains with stronger spells be given weaker powers and vice versa, as well as being weakened overall to prevent the cleric from accumulating too much power creep.
*bump*
I don't like it. Nobody ever uses the spontaneous spells above 4th level (cure critical wounds), anyway, except possibly with metamagic.
In addition, Channel Positive Energy doesn't in any way come close to the healing power of spontaneous casting. It's only usable a very limited number of times per day (more limited than spells by a long shot), uses d6's with no bonus instead of xd8+caster level, and is awkward to use as an in-combat heal unless you're fighting undead or you take the Selective Channeling feat.
Remember, the entire point of spontaneous casting of cure spells for Clerics is so that they don't have to waste all of their spell slots on cure spells like they did in 1st and 2nd edition. With CPE not being an effective replacement, we fall back on "Sorry guys, I can't flame strike that troll to kill it, I had to memorize a cure critical wounds instead" (yes, I realize flame strike and cure critical are different spell levels - it's a hyperbole).
Channel Positive Energy is a supplement to healing spells, not a replacement. So, please don't replace clerical spontaneous healing.
while i understand wanting to make it different for every religion based on their domains, i would prefer making clerics different based on their domains done another way, personally.
what i would prefer is not the cure/inflict ability to be changed, but the Channel Energy ability be modified. why does a cleric of Nethys have a positive energy burst?? what do they really care about healing or destroying undead??
what of they instead had some sort of Dispel Magic burst.
base the Channel energy burst on something more thematic based on the Deity worshipped (or the domains chosen for those non-deity clerics).
maybe take their 1st level domain ability and base their Channel Energy upon this???
why does a cleric of Nethys have a positive energy burst?? what do they really care about healing or destroying undead??
By the same logic, why does a cleric of Nethys have Spontaneous cure/inflict?
With CPE not being an effective replacement, we fall back on "Sorry guys, I can't flame strike that troll to kill it, I had to memorize a cure critical wounds instead" (yes, I realize flame strike and cure critical are different spell levels - it's a hyperbole).
Druids always have that problem. With both CPE and spontaneous cure, Clerics are so good at healing no one else can keep up, which means it becomes less and less possible to have a sucessful party without a cleric, even if filling in a similar class like a Druid.
Druids always have that problem. With both CPE and spontaneous cure, Clerics are so good at healing no one else can keep up, which means it becomes less and less possible to have a sucessful party without a cleric, even if filling in a similar class like a Druid.
Druids have the vigor line, which are the most efficient heals in the game. Not great for combat healing, true, but the extreme efficiency out of combat makes up for it.
Besides, I don't see how nerfing clerical healing helps parties without clerics stay healed. A penalty to one class isn't a bonus to all the rest ;)
Druids have the vigor line, which are the most efficient heals in the game. Not great for combat healing, true, but the extreme efficiency out of combat makes up for it.
Vigor isn't in the SRD or Beta. I'm looking for a way to make them competitive from the core.
Besides, I don't see how nerfing clerical healing helps parties without clerics stay healed. A penalty to one class isn't a bonus to all the rest ;)
Because it helps adventure design. If an adventure dangerous enough to threaten a party with a cleric is completely lethal to a party with a druid instead due tot he lack of healing, while inversely one that is threatening to the Druid party is a cakewalk for the cleric, then a cleric will either be considered cheating or necessary, depending on which of those difficultly levels becomes preferred.
This sort of reminds me of the Unearthed Arcana variant: spontaneous domain casting (see bottom of page)
I always liked that idea, but it did cause a snag when you had a player who wanted to have more healing, but didn't want to pick a god with the healing domain. Of course, these clerics could still pick the spell cure light wounds, etc. and then drop them for their domain spell, but it didn't seem graceful.
One solution might be to let domain spells be apart of the cleric's spell list. That way, if they wanted to pick burning hands X times, they could do so, but still drop them for healing.
Besides, I don't see how nerfing clerical healing helps parties without clerics stay healed. A penalty to one class isn't a bonus to all the rest ;)Because it helps adventure design. If an adventure dangerous enough to threaten a party with a cleric is completely lethal to a party with a druid instead due tot he lack of healing, while inversely one that is threatening to the Druid party is a cakewalk for the cleric, then a cleric will either be considered cheating or necessary, depending on which of those difficultly levels becomes preferred.
No, it doesn't work that way. Remember - backwards compatibility. Pathfinder has to work out of the box with as much previously published material as possible. That includes adventures, and all previously published 3.5 adventures assume that parties have a certain capacity for healing, based mostly on spontaneous cures. Nerfing clerics' ability to heal does not change the fact that those adventures expect your cleric to be able to heal. It just makes it so that no one can play those adventures.
There's another reason it won't work, too. They aren't changing the CR system. And, like everything else being brought over unchanged, it's based on a certain amount of healing being available. Since encounter design is based primarily on the CR of the creatures in the encounter, it is thus linked to the assumed amount of healing available.
Clerics have more healing available than they used to, due to channel. Bringing that back down (for non-Healing Domain clerics) makes them more compatible with old adventures, not less.
In my experience, switching spontaneous casting to domains and removing the domain spell slot brought the cleric more in line with the other classes.
The loss of a spell per day made them less functional casters than (specialist) wizards in 3.5.
The loss of the spontaneous healing spells means that Clerics have to reserve some slots for healing if that's their role, although I found that many more players wanted to play Clerics in a system where they weren't pidgeonholed into being the healer. Channeling will offset this a bit, but I still think taking some healing away is a good thing. You can't just keep dumping class features on to bribe PCs into wanting to play a class.
Defaulting to domains makes your clerics clearly tied to their diety, but it doesn't really make them more powerful. Rather it puts them somewhere between a Sorcerer and a Wizard: some spell selection versatility, but they are very specialized in what they can default to.
Having seen it in action for more than 5 years, I completely refute the notion that it would make Clerics more powerful. It makes them more flexible, but only in that they can play other roles but Heal-bot, which is what it takes for a lot of people to want to play a cleric at all. And that flexibility in other domains comes at the cost of a very good power (defaulting to cure).
As for reverse compatibility, you don't need to rewrite a single statblock for this system. I can't say the same for Pathfinder Beta domains. I would call Spontaneous domains a 100% reverse compatible rule, unless published materials make reference to defaulting to heal spells where it is rendered obsolete. That's much less change than re-writing ever cleric's statblock, as PF Beta has us doing.
No, it doesn't work that way. Remember - backwards compatibility. Pathfinder has to work out of the box with as much previously published material as possible. That includes adventures, and all previously published 3.5 adventures assume that parties have a certain capacity for healing, based mostly on spontaneous cures. Nerfing clerics' ability to heal does not change the fact that those adventures expect your cleric to be able to heal. It just makes it so that no one can play those adventures.
I can't accept the argument that Spontaneous Domains are less compatible than Pathfinder's complete rewrite of every cleric stat block. If an adventure assumes a certain amount of healing, it is much easier for me as the GM to drop more potions or allow more rest, than it would be for me to rewrite every cleric in the adventure, which is what PF Beta requires.
There's another reason it won't work, too. They aren't changing the CR system. And, like everything else being brought over unchanged, it's based on a certain amount of healing being available. Since encounter design is based primarily on the CR of the creatures in the encounter, it is thus linked to the assumed amount of healing available.
They aren't changing the CR system, they're changing the CRs for the Pathfinder Bestiary. And I don't think that CR is terribly relevant.