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This revision attempts to address two things that the Pathfinder Beta Grapple rules do not address well. First, it does away with any distinction between an attacker and a defender, except on the acting creature's turn. Second, it includes rules for multiple grapplers. There are other, relatively minor, changes included, such as a bonus for creatures with improved grab, a clarification on how many free limbs are needed to grapple, a wording change from "flat-footed" to "loses Dexterity bonus to AC," and so on.
Comments and suggestions are welcomed. In particular, making the simplified Pathfinder rules work with multiple grapplers proved troublesome, and my solutions aren't particularly satisfying.
Suggested Revision -- Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options (and yours). If you do not have Improved Grapple, improved grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver, and as usual a successful attack adds its damage to the combat maneuver DC. Creatures without two free limbs -- or improved grab or a similar ability -- take a -4 penalty on combat maneuver checks for grappling. Creatures with improved grab gain a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks for grappling; possibly more, if they are particularly equipped for grappling. (The creature's "Improved Grab" entry will specify the bonus if other than +4.)
If successful, you and the target gain the grappled condition (see below). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).
Grappled: A grappled creature is being restrained by another creature, trap, or effect. It cannot move normally and take a –4 penalty to its Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made for grappling. In addition, a grappled creature can take no action that does not leave it one free limb for grappling, except attempt to escape the grapple, unless the creature has improved grab or a similar ability. A grappled character that attempts to cast a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
On a grappled creature's turn, it declares whether it wishes to end the grapple. If all grapplers in the agree to end the grapple, it immediately ends. Otherwise the grapple is maintained.
In a maintained grapple, a successful combat maneuver check as a standard action allows you to perform one of the following actions.
Move: You can move up to one-half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus. After this movement, any other grapplers (besides you and your target) are no longer grappled, and must rejoin the grapple normally if they wish.
Damage: You can inf lict damage to your target equal to your unarmed damage. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition. Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. You must maintain a pin from round to round, using a standard action, but the combat maneuver check is at a +5 bonus. If you fail to maintain the pin, the target becomes grappled instead of pinned.
Escape: You are no longer grappled. This action also allows use of the Escape Artist skill (at the same DC as a combat maneuver check). In a grapple involving multiple opponents, the DC is based on the highest CMB among the enemy grapplers.
Aid: You declare your assistance to a specific other grappler. With a combat maneuver check (the DC for this action is a flat 10), you grant that grappler a +2 on combat maneuver checks for grappling until the end of his turn.
Pinned: A pinned creature cannot move and loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A successful check means the creature becomes grappled, instead of pinned. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned creature that attempts to cast a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled and their effects do not stack.
Multiple Grapplers: Multiple creatures may participate in a grapple. To help initiate a grapple, a creature must be adjacent to the intended target and ready an action to aid a specific other creature in initiating the grapple. If that creature then attempts to grapple the intended target, and the aiding creature succeeds on a DC 10 CMB check, the initiator of the grapple receives a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to grapple until the end of his turn. To join an existing grapple, the creature must succeed on a DC 15 combat maneuver check.
Binding a Pinned Target: If you have your target pinned or otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie them up. This requires that the target remain pinned for five consecutive rounds. The DC to escape from being bound is 20 + the binding creature's CMB. If a helpless creature is bound, the DC becomes 25 + the binding creature's CMB. A bound creature is helpless.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hmmm.
Let's say I grab my housecat. We are now "grappled". On its turn, if it rolls well it can move half its movement rate and drag me along. That seems odd.
Question: The way I'm reading this, let's say that some vast tentacled creature, with CMB out the wazoo, is about to grab the PC's and carry them back to its watery lair. The first PC immediately grapples his colleague.
Am I correct in my reading that the only thing the tentacled horror can do in this case is aid another? Since both PC's have the "grappled" condition, the tentacled horror can't actually carry away either of them (or both, as they now make a neat little grab-one-get-one-free bundle).
Also, the tentacled horror can't reach out of the deeps and grapple. It must actually haul itself out of its fetid little pool and lie adjacent to anything it wants to engage in it's 50'-long appendages.
Am I misreading your proposal?
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Am I misreading your proposal?
I believe you are, although it could easily be on my side, too. What in my proposal makes you think the Tentacled Horror can't simply join the grapple and on its next turn carry off its meal?
Nothing in multiple grapplers says that aiding another is the only thing you can do. On the contrary, what I've tried to do is simply say that anybody in a grappled is "grappled" and has the same five options as everybody else: move, damage, pin, aid, or escape.
By grappling his teammate, he's just made it even easier for the Tentacled Horror to join the grapple, as the DC is now a flat 15.
You're right, however, the Tentacled Horror should not have to be adjacent to join a grapple, and I'll change that.
With regard to your buff housecat, that's not me ... that's all Pathfinder. I didn't want to mess with the system too much.
Does this help?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It does indeed help. Thank you, Jeff. I wasn't clear on the distinction between initiating a grapple and joining one already in progress.
The most absurd example I could come up with on short notice was the quickling vs. elephant combat. A quickling (speed 96) can, on its turn, if it rolls well, move half its speed, carrying an elephant that's grappled it. Clearly, the elephant can't do much to assist that, even if it wanted to.
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Version 1.1 -- Clarifying movement of a target creature when another creature joins a grapple.
The following replaces the last sentence in the "Multiple Grapplers" section:
To join an existing grapple, the creature must succeed on a DC 15 combat maneuver check. If a creature joins a grapple without being adjacent to its target, determine whether the target is moved with a combat maneuver grapple check against whichever resisting grappler has the highest CMB (which may be the target). If the joining creature wins, the target is pulled adjacent as normal. If the target is no longer adjacent to other grapplers, they are no longer grappling that creature. (They are still grappled, however, until that separate grapple is otherwise ended.)
Perhaps there should be a size limitations on the Move and Pin options. I mean, there's a logistical thing going on here. You have to be able to get leverage to move, and you'll need to get hold at least some of the limbs down to pin. What if you simply can't reach them?
Maybe a "nothing more than one size larger than you" clause? So the Tiny cat can't move the Medium creature?
Then, maybe Improved Grapple could allow for two sizes larger... so those crazy bezerker Halfling Barbarians can drag around Large creatures?
Or, perhaps make it so rolling a 20 in this case isn't an auto-success. Make it more like a skill check rather than an attack roll.
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I agree that the grapple needs a little tweaking.
I enjoyed the OPers ideas, especially the “aid” and multiple grapplers entries.
However, I think there should be two positions in a grapple; grappler and grapplee. Or if you prefer, grappling and being grappled .
This could be rectified by simply adding the below part to the original (or any revised) grapple entry.
If you are the person being grappled, you can perform one of the following actions.
Escape: Make a standard CMB roll against the target’s CMB (with the +5 circumstance bonus if your opponent has earned it) If you succeed, you are free of the grapple. You can also choose to use an Escape Artist check against your opponent’s CMB.
Reverse: Make a standard CMB roll against the target’s CMB (with the +5 circumstance bonus if your opponent has earned it). If you succeed, you become the grappler, and can now choose to attempt to move, damage or pin your opponent next round.
I agree with several posters that there needs to be some stipulation about the “move” action when dealing with larger creatures, or those that don’t use their whole body to grapple. Personally, I like the idea of “move” and “pin” only works on creatures of up to one size category larger.
For some reason, the game mechanics are eluding me for this next part, but I’m pretty sure you couldn’t pin or move an opponent that is grappling you via its tentacle. So that would have to be mentioned as well.