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I'm a believer in channel energy, it's a really interesting class feature, and a good compression. However the problem is that one action does too much. Both healing and potentially controlling or scattering undead are worthwhile, but please let them require different actions.
I'm not suggesting that we go so far as to split it off into a feat, but rather that they be distinct uses of the same pool of uses. Healing/Harming or Repelling/Controlling. I feel that both sets of uses are viable and should be available to a starting cleric, but just not at the same time. If there is going to be a feat, please let it instead allow both to be used at the same time.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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My big concern is that if turning/controlling is not part of a standard use of channel energy, many existing undead encounters from previously published products could become exceedingly difficult. Currently, undead CRs are based on the assumption that a standard party has a cleric that can turn undead.
If channelling defaults to only healing/harming, then the undead encounters become much harder, since you fight them all at once, instead of some being turned and running away.
I agree that having undead run away is very annoying, tracking how long they're gone, when they come back, do they bring friends, and having the PCs hunting them down. How about instead of turning making them flee, simply have them held at bay - say 30 feet from the turning cleric, unable to get closer (which still leaves turned undead options such as ranged attacks, spells, etc.)
Director of Games
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Pulling out turning/rebuking/commanding from the standard channel action seems like a good division to me, especially when you consider the tracking headaches a GM has to go through when undead run away.
As I mention, we are also thinking about adding in a feat that allows these functions, but this use replaces the standard use (so no healing or hurting undead if you are trying to make undead run away).
None of this is final though, and I am interested in feedback from play, especially when it comes to combats involving undead.
((As an aside, I am not sure I buy the argument that encounters with undead were designed differently. I think undead were designed differently, but not the encounters themselves. I think that some of our revisions to undead creatures may resolve much of this concern))
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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If you are gonna break it down into feats, something which I don't think is a good idea, unless there's gonna be items (say Rods) that grant them.
If you really, really, want to break it off into feats I'd suggest giving Clerics some free Channel Energy Feats, at dead levels (6th, 10th, and 14th). This would give them the same kind of customization which the wizard gets but in a completely different way, and make the amount of channeling feats not seem excessive.
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i really hope Positive Channel is not changed
we haven't found that many undeads, but possitive channel is definitively a boost to keep a game going (both from DM and Player's perspective), but if the action is divided and its a campaign with a (un)healthy quantity of undeads... then it will be pretty much letal between deciding if to heal or to turn...
i liked the idea that possitive energy is life, undeads are hurt by this while all living beings, including enemies, are healed, the other factor i like too where negative energy is death, entropy, corruption, hurting as much as its able to fortify undeads.
please don'tchange this
If you are gonna break it down into feats, something which I don't think is a good idea, unless there's gonna be items (say Rods) that grant them.
If you really, really, want to break it off into feats I'd suggest giving Clerics some free Channel Energy Feats, at dead levels (6th, 10th, and 14th). This would give them the same kind of customization which the wizard gets but in a completely different way, and make the amount of channeling feats not seem excessive.
i agree
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The ONLY problem I have had with channel energy has been while being the DM and using negative channelers. When they negative energy burst, even to control undead, they tend to damage their living allies (yes, I know, selective channeling is an option).
The turn portion hasn't been a problem at my table. So far undead encountered have either made their save or had nowhere to run and were forced to cower (and fight the party). Prior to Beta, I usually treated turned undead as "defeated" and simply gave the party XP, unless the party felt the need to track the undead down. Major villian undead were usually too powerful for a party cleric to turn, so that wasn't a concern either.
However, I could see where this could be a problem at some tables. Maybe the solution is to break the Channel ability into two options, instead of turning it into feats.
For the positive channeler, they can spend a burst to:
1. heal living creatures/harm undead creatures
2. turn undead
For the negative channeler, they can spend a burst to:
1. harm living creatures/heal undead creatures
2. control undead
This would preserve the backward compatibility, as clerics would still have their old turn or control, but would have the new burst option. In the end, isn't that one of our goals here - to add options?
Rambled a bit. Thanks for reading.
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In the AoW campaign I DM, my players are evil. When the new rules for channel energy came out we ended up coverting to an either/or function.
The cleric either uses it as a negative energy burst to harm opponents or he channels negative nergy to try and command undead. We didn't want the idea of trying to command enemy undead but also healing them at the same time (incase the command check failed).
So as a DM who sees an evil clerics perspective then yes, I'd like to see this feature separated into two areas.
Cheers
My 2 coppers: Channel to heal/hurt.. Totally rocks! THe MOnty Python, run away! run away! for the undead, totally not. I would like to see it modified so that the undead are held at bay. About 30' sounds good. Mindless undead could be destroyed with relative easy, and more intellegent undead will make tactical corrections to their plans. I would be good with the healing and turning made into seperate actions, with a possible feat to combine them.
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My 2 coppers: Channel to heal/hurt.. Totally rocks! THe MOnty Python, run away! run away! for the undead, totally not. I would like to see it modified so that the undead are held at bay. About 30' sounds good. Mindless undead could be destroyed with relative easy, and more intellegent undead will make tactical corrections to their plans. I would be good with the healing and turning made into seperate actions, with a possible feat to combine them.
Something like a sanctuary affect maybe? Only changed so that you can attack undead out of it?
I am leaning towards the either/or model. If you do decide to go with the feat idea, some bonus feat slots in the cleric progression would be nice.
My 2 coppers: Channel to heal/hurt.. Totally rocks! THe MOnty Python, run away! run away! for the undead, totally not. I would like to see it modified so that the undead are held at bay. About 30' sounds good. Mindless undead could be destroyed with relative easy, and more intellegent undead will make tactical corrections to their plans. I would be good with the healing and turning made into seperate actions, with a possible feat to combine them.Something like a sanctuary affect maybe? Only changed so that you can attack undead out of it?
Looking for pf sanctuary spell, waiting for Comp Pewter to work. Waiting..waiting..waating. Stupid evil typewriter.
Hack
Something like a sanctuary affect maybe? Only changed so that you can attack undead out of it?
Yes, but would like to see some range, about 10-30' and channeler must mantain turn instead of attacking. this way cannon fodder can be easily dealt with and stronger undead can still go toe to toe if they choose.
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I am a huge fan of using feats to add turning or controlling to channel energy.
I can see no way that this hurts in an existing game and in fact probably adds a lot to it.
First of all there are more feats available since we now get 10 instead of 7. Three more feats to use on gaining better and cooler powers against Undead.
Second, so many feats are essentially Fighter feats or metafeats or crafting feats. There are relatively few feats that other classes will want that enhance their own abilities. This is an opportunity to make feats more than just combat maneuvers or crafting or spell modifiers.
Third, a feat chain available at 1st level that allows turning undead will not alter how an adventure is run if it is undead heavy. And while it is stated above that most adventures are written for a group that includes an undead turning Cleric I think that is oversimplified. Many groups do not ever include a Cleric. If the Cleric chooses to not take Turn Undead it is no different than a party that started with no Cleric and had a Druid, Bard or Paladin instead.
Turning is handy for battling Undead, but the ONLY thing that defeats them. In fact, if the Turn Undead feat does not include making them flee, it is even better. Currently, Turning is complicated, and often winds up screwing up the tactical situation.
Bonus feats at 6, 10 and 14 would also help out in making these feats more useful.
I feel channel energy is too powerful, as written. I like the idea of splitting it up into smaller chunks of power, rather than being all inclusive from the start.
The default ability of channeling positive energy could be to heal one living creature.
Feats/Class abilities gained at later levels could add the following:
-heal multiple creatures in a burst
-harm/turn/destroy undead creatures
-other possibilities
The opposite powers for channel negative energy of course.
As it stands, the low level cure/inflict spells aren't as significant.
BTW, is spontaneous casting still around? It's in the cleric's description, but is not listed on the progression table
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I feel channel energy is too powerful, as written. I like the idea of splitting it up into smaller chunks of power, rather than being all inclusive from the start.
The default ability of channeling positive energy could be to heal one living creature.
Feats/Class abilities gained at later levels could add the following:
-heal multiple creatures in a burst
-harm/turn/destroy undead creatures
-other possibilitiesThe opposite powers for channel negative energy of course.
As it stands, the low level cure/inflict spells aren't as significant.
BTW, is spontaneous casting still around? It's in the cleric's description, but is not listed on the progression table
Spontaneous casting of Cure spells? It is still under Class Features, but you are right, it is not on the table.
I've always hated the undead run away concept of turning undead. It seemed odd that it worked on skeletons and zombies because they lacked intelligence, and it seemed odd that an unintelligent creature could comprehend fear.
So at my table we have simply thrown out the bit about undead fleeing or cowering and kept the healing/hurting aspects. If the damage is great enough they disintegrate. Which makes for some really neat scenes of the cleric in the party disintegrating skeletons that charge her.
I think creating feats that alter turning would be a good way to handle this, so players who want to make undead run can do so and so dms who do not want undead to run can simply ban the feat.
An additional feat to add to channeling I would like to see could give the cleric the countenance of their god and thus create a fear aura affecting non-worshippers during an energy channeling.
snip
None of this is final though, and I am interested in feedback from play, especially when it comes to combats involving undead.
snipJason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I use the following rules.
You either channel positive healing energy
or
you channel positive harming (or turning) energy
Harming energy deals damage which is halved on a succesful Will save. I removed the running away part as it just adds more work for the DM and is a pain. Turn resistance X from 3.5 adds the X to the Will save of the undead creature.
So far the results have been fine, no problems to report.
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I'm pretty sure the OP wants to keep things exactly as written, but with the exception that the PC must decide what he is doing with the positive energy that he is channeling:
He is either channeling energy to heal all living creatures in the affected radius,
OR
He is channeling to damage undead creatures in the affected radius.
Not both in the same action/turn.
This seems like a pretty reasonable alternative to what is currently written.
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The ONLY problem I have had with channel energy has been while being the DM and using negative channelers. When they negative energy burst, even to control undead, they tend to damage their living allies (yes, I know, selective channeling is an option).
The turn portion hasn't been a problem at my table. So far undead encountered have either made their save or had nowhere to run and were forced to cower (and fight the party). Prior to Beta, I usually treated turned undead as "defeated" and simply gave the party XP, unless the party felt the need to track the undead down. Major villian undead were usually too powerful for a party cleric to turn, so that wasn't a concern either.
However, I could see where this could be a problem at some tables. Maybe the solution is to break the Channel ability into two options, instead of turning it into feats.
For the positive channeler, they can spend a burst to:
1. heal living creatures/harm undead creatures
2. turn undeadFor the negative channeler, they can spend a burst to:
1. harm living creatures/heal undead creatures
2. control undeadThis would preserve the backward compatibility, as clerics would still have their old turn or control, but would have the new burst option. In the end, isn't that one of our goals here - to add options?
Rambled a bit. Thanks for reading.
This is perfect!
Flee is not fear,it's an effect of opposite energy(nrj). Undead are immunize to mental effect.Undead don't run away. When turning is over,they're come back! The life is here and it's a VERY GOOD FEAST !
... [cut many interesting ideas on how turning could work]
You're exactly right EV - turning isn't fear, so much as a physical repulsion. The stronger, intelligent, undead are better at resisting (Turn Resistance) *because* they have the intellect to fight it.
Please Do Not Take Turning Away. I can't imagine something that would break backwards compatibility and destroy tradition more than this.
I've just run two encounters with undead, where about half were turned (more than usual). In one they ran off a short distance, and got slaughtered. The other spread the party out a bit, forced them to coordinate a bit more, and frankly let them make mistakes (going off guard).
I've run two other encounters lately where nothing ran, and the cleric's bit of curing to everyone was a mild recompense for the "wasted" action.
Turning makes for an interesting choice - do you just drive off the critters and let them run, or do you chase them down, possibly fall into a trap.
Whatever solution is chosen for channeling/turning, I'd like it to work for elementals, offering a non-alignment based option to turn or control them. A character could choose turning or controlling, like how a neutral cleric chooses to affect undead. It's pretty unsatisfying now that the Turn Elemental feat specifically disallows turning elementals.
As far as undead are concerned, I think turning or controlling should continue to be available without an extra feat. I thought there was a good reason for combining turning and channeling (healing) in the same action, to give clerics the chance to cast interesting spells instead of always converting them into curing spells. As long as clerics get to cast interesting spells, I don't mind if turning and channeling become separate actions. However, I liked the way turning could destroy undead in 1e rules.
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Did a few test cases in games.
Channel Positive: Healing OR Turning Undead
Channel Negative: Hurting OR Rebuking Undead
Also had quite a few Neutral Aligned Clerics of Neutral deities who were big on Healing OR Turning Elementals. So much so that I request that this be a basic implementation, to go along with the whole good and evil thing.
Instead of Turning Elementals being a Feat, make a feat to access additional turning types. As then you cannot detect a clerics alignment by the energy they channel.
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Pulling out turning/rebuking/commanding from the standard channel action seems like a good division to me, especially when you consider the tracking headaches a GM has to go through when undead run away.
As I mention, we are also thinking about adding in a feat that allows these functions, but this use replaces the standard use (so no healing or hurting undead if you are trying to make undead run away).
None of this is final though, and I am interested in feedback from play, especially when it comes to combats involving undead.
((As an aside, I am not sure I buy the argument that encounters with undead were designed differently. I think undead were designed differently, but not the encounters themselves. I think that some of our revisions to undead creatures may resolve much of this concern))
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Our latest session involved what we call a "Channeling Fest", i.e. several characters and NPCs all channeling during the same round (good vs. evil). The group included a Paladin and a Cleric, and they were opposed by an evil cleric several levels higher than them. I had devised all sorts of nasty tricks he could do with his spells. Turns out that he could do *NOTHING* else than keep channeling, because otherwise his minions (blocking the PCs from getting to the priest too soon) would have fled *every* round (the will save against the paladin was just too high for "brute" undead minions). I had to fudge rolls every round not to turn into a one-sided slugfest as the poor cleric -- abandoned by his fleeing minions -- would have been quickly surrounded and squashed by the PCs (he was more of a "mastermind" with lots of spells that utilized ranged touch).
I think this problem comes out in groups in which more than one PC is capable of channeling Good. In retrospect, I should have used living minions for this fight, as I was very well aware of what the PCs are capable of. My bad. He *did* put up a decent fight, but was sorely "outchanneled" by the PCs during the fourth round, I think.
EDIT: The evil cleric naturally benefited (in the form of healing) from their channeling, and his channeling ability really hurt the PCs. Still, I'm not completely sure how to fix it, because the problem I've outlined here would still persist (i.e. the evil cleric should still have spent his actions on channeling to keep his minions around)?
Sounds like you needed a second in command.
However with his channelling and their channelling how did the damage come out? Were they basically cancelling each other round after round leaving the "minions" and other PC's to do the fighting? If so I don't think this is such a bad thing. You got the "epic battle of the faithful" thing going on while everyone else is worrying about just getting through the small stuff. Sounds like it would have been quite the scene to see.
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Sounds like you needed a second in command.
However with his channelling and their channelling how did the damage come out? Were they basically cancelling each other round after round leaving the "minions" and other PC's to do the fighting? If so I don't think this is such a bad thing. You got the "epic battle of the faithful" thing going on while everyone else is worrying about just getting through the small stuff. Sounds like it would have been quite the scene to see.
Yeah, but he had prepared all those nasty Touch-spells he could utilize from behind his "minions" (Bugbear Fighters with the 'Bone Creature'-template from BoVD). My biggest mistake was that he didn't cast 'Spiritual Weapon' to harass the paladin in the first round -- he did, eventually, and it made the fight a bit more balanced, as the paladin couldn't ignore the spell forever. :)
He *did* get to use his 'Black Talon'-spell as an AoO when the dwarf fighter used Overrun to get behind the minions... and he managed to bring the fighter down, momentarily (i.e. until both PCs channeled the next time).
All in all, the evil cleric had far better channeling than the PCs (+2D6 advantage to theirs, I think?), so he *did* inflict more damage to the PCs than they could heal. However, he only had 4 Channel uses per day, and the PCs had something like 12 or 14 put together? So yes, the evil cleric channeled against the PCs, who both kept channeling to get rid of the Bugbear "minions". I fudged all the "minion" saves after the evil cleric had been "outchanneled" -- it only felt fair, because it would have been a swift and brutal encounter if I hadn't.
As you said, it really felt like an epic fight, good versus evil, and we were all pretty caught in it! But it almost ended during the first round, as the PC rogue managed to *crit* the cleric with his longbow, and the dwarf fighter narrowly missed his first Overrun attempt... luckily the villain was soon healed by the cleric and the paladin, or it would have been a sort of an anticlimax. :)
I don't like the channel energy as it is now, it IS too much at once.
I would like to see channel energy targeted rather than having it affect a huge area, multiple targets with a single use is fine ofcourse.
I'd like to see healing treated as laying on hands on a single target with a channel use, with possible a feat to affect multiple targets at once.
Never been fond of undead running away, it's rather frustrating in an encounter really, dealing damage and maybe add other effects with a feat would be nice like blinding, repulsing or even set them on fire.
I am not sure about bonus feats, as is a cleric is far from underpowered, just having a nice selection of divine feats could make things interesting for a cleric though.
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Never been fond of undead running away, it's rather frustrating in an encounter really, dealing damage and maybe add other effects with a feat would be nice like blinding, repulsing or even set them on fire.
I am not sure about bonus feats, as is a cleric is far from underpowered, just having a nice selection of divine feats could make things interesting for a cleric though.
This. As I wrote above, a challenging encounter with an evil cleric and his undead minions almost turned into a single-sided "slugfest" as they had only a minimal chance at surviving their Will saves and fleeing.
I like Channeling as it is, *except* for the cowering/fleeing part -- why couldn't they just become 'Shaken'? Or maybe every Channeling would affect their "morale" in steps, i.e. they wouldn't be 'Panicked' from the first attempt?
And, I agree with you that if fighters get all sorts of conditions (Bleeding, Staggered, Blind, etc.) they can impose on their opponents via Feats, why shouldn't such Divine Feats exist? That'd add more depth and fun to Channeling.
I like channeling healing the living and harming undead, but could live without the running away/fear part. I like the idea of replacing it with Shaken.
Our group hasn't found it overpowering. Last night our cleric used it two rounds in a row, for two points each round on 2d6.
the paladin's laying on hands never really seemed an iconic paladin ability to me anyway, it seems to me a very appropriate ability for clerics which paladins might be capable of as well by virtue of their channeling energy.
making laying on hands an option of the channel energy ability seems to do well for me anyway.
The 30'area cure/nuke isnt an option for my game anyway.
What about this feat tree for clerics? (This is assuming that the heal and turn abilities are split off from one another.)
1st level: take a feat to either increase dam/heal by 1d6 or increase will save by +2. (can only be taken once, so you can't take the feat 2X and gain both benefits)
5th level: lets you combine heal and turn into one full-round action.
10th level: improved 1st level feat; either an additional 1d6/+2 or get the lower benefits for the other use of channel energy.
15th level: channel as a move action; can't combine turn and heal effects with this usage. This would let clerics both heal and cast something else, which was a big frustration for the cleric in my game. Also lets combined effects be used as standard action?
20th level: Gain turn/control as permanent 10 ft radius effect. Any undead entering it are affected as though you had turned/rebuked them. (maybe you glow, so there's a clue to let BBEGs know that the cleric has a radius of pain?)
I'm just throwing this out there, as there aren't many feats designed for clerics. What do you think?
please please please keep turning the way it is. The most appealing thing about turning is that if your charisma isn't godlike (giving you a relatively low chance of making an undead flee) than Channeling remains a good option because you can damage undead and heal your allies at the same time....
Please, clerics have *so* few options short of quicken spell that allow them to preform their clericy healing duties and still have some fun (attack) at the same time. Giving them this one option limited to undead is not too much.
I like the feats out now for clerics involving turning, but I don't want to see too many more, especially not to make them do what they do in the current iteration. If you want to be a good channeler, you pretty much are spending 3 feats on it already, please don't make them spend 4.
Long story short, channeling is perfect right now, adding more feats and options will make channeling a 'build' rather than a worthwhile option that all clerics will do once in a while.
please please please keep turning the way it is. The most appealing thing about turning is that if your charisma isn't godlike (giving you a relatively low chance of making an undead flee) than Channeling remains a good option because you can damage undead and heal your allies at the same time....
Please, clerics have *so* few options short of quicken spell that allow them to preform their clericy healing duties and still have some fun (attack) at the same time. Giving them this one option limited to undead is not too much.
I like the feats out now for clerics involving turning, but I don't want to see too many more, especially not to make them do what they do in the current iteration. If you want to be a good channeler, you pretty much are spending 3 feats on it already, please don't make them spend 4.
Long story short, channeling is perfect right now, adding more feats and options will make channeling a 'build' rather than a worthwhile option that all clerics will do once in a while.
Let's remember that the cleric gets the same spell progression as the wizard now, unless things have changed, and the idea was to make basic party healing more effective, especially at lower levels, where it's most needed. The idea was to let clerics memorize spells they might actually use, rather than convert them all to healing every day.
Healing your friends while damaging undead you can't turn is just so...cleric-y, it makes sense. When's the last time you played a cleric with a 16 charisma?
I don't like putting too much power in low level players hands, I kinda like playing low level adventures it is supposed to play differently than mid or high level adventures, if anything I dislike PRPG giving characters too many abilities too early in the adventurer's career.
Now priests can heal a party, teleport out of a prison cell, and blast undead in a 30'radius, and use light-orison enough to light the darkest dungeon, all at first level without using a single spell.
limited resources is part of the fun of a low level campaign, I realize not everyone plays like that, but powerplay is so easily house ruled dont make that the basis of the game.
I like it becuase it can help explain low level NPC's doing things I need them to without having to either give them items well beyond the WBL guidelines, massive amounts of levels, or DM Fiating it.
"How that rouge get out of jail?"
"Well he had a few levels in cleric of desna."
"How did that wizard get out of jail?"
"He melted the lock with acid."
"How did that rogue do that?"
"He took arcane trick."
I can stay in the rules and still have people doing neat stuff without having to have 10+ level to get to it.