There is no real reason to rush it. Feel free to take breaks if your players need it.
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We had fun. It was our first game at the higher tier, and being able to take a break between encounters really helped that.
The Chelish conjurer completed her missions, but recommended to her superiors that Fuln was sufficiently incompetent that they ought to be really certain about him before recruiting him. I said that they were after someone expendable and easily fooled. She then heartily endorsed his candidacy.
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Just got back from DM:ing this scenario. Some critisism follows. Since there's already a spoiler warning in the topic I won't bother with adding spoiler tags:
Encounter #1: Rat trap
The party are attacked by a rat swarm. A minor resource drain and nuisance. Nothing to write home about.
Encounter #2: Wounded otyugh ambush
Another resource drain, this one a bit harder but still not much more than a nuisance. A character KO and a killed animal companion.
Encounter #3: Trog ambush
Trogs and a Ranger. A nasty and quite costly resource drain that KO'd a character.
Encounter #4: Trog ambush II
3 trogs and a crocodile make this encounter the hardest one yet. The crocodile is a really tough beast with a lethal attack and enough hit points to be a real pain to deal with. A character KO which results in near-death. Another dead animal companion.
Encounter #5: Crocodile king ambush
The main event got forewarned by a summoned wolf scouting ahead and getting squashed giving Lord Corgan time to Shield up and prepare his mind-control whammy. The first one into the room, the halfling rogue got dominated and an ambush was set for the rest of the party. A very lethal fight which would have resulted in a certain TPK if instead of this party (lvl 4 Ranger, lvl 3 Cleric, lvl 2 Fighter, lvl 1 Druid, lvl 1 Bard, lvl 1 Rogue) the party would have consisted of four lvl 1 anythings.
This scenario is intensely lethal and combat heavy and completely off the scale for a Tier 1-2 (which should be doable by four level one characters). There isn't much plot to speak off (down the severs, get on the track, run the gauntlet killing everything you see and looting every nook and cranny). The faction quests mostly consist of retrieve item X. There are no clues as to where the McGuffin (the amulet) should be found and I'd wager that few parties would think of looking in the Croc King's stomach.
Addendum: Actually, the location of the amulet is completely irrelevant. Retrieving or not retrieving the amulet has no bearing at all on anything. There is no monetary reward, nor does any XP or prestige award hinge on it's retrieval. Yes, I know that no amulet = mission failed, but since there are no consequences, who cares.
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Did some heavy modding and ran this again yesterday. The main changes as follows:
* Drew a new map which consisted of around 25 A4 pieces of straight tunnel bits, crossroads or large rooms. Moved the pieces around showing only what was visible in the areas lighted by the torches and/or spells the group was using.
* Broke down the trog encounters into roaming skirmish-units using hit'n run tactics.
* Placed Lemedor in a small sewer maintenance worker's room that had two entrances to the sewer maze, enabling him to use this room as a defensible base of operations.
* Introduced the option of parley with King Croc.
What happened was this:
* The group was harassed repeatedly by trogs throwing javelins out of the pitch blackness.
* A sniping Lemedor shooting at every light source in sight was a real pain to deal with for the group.
* Rolled lots of hidden spot and listen rolls for the group.
* The trogs used the echoes and knowledge of the sewers to their advantage, creating the illusion that there were actually dozens of trogs hiding all over the tunnels when in fact there was only a handful of them.
* Entering King Crocs lair the party's main tank (a Barbarian 2/Fighter 1) was dominated, so instead of a doomed from the start combat against said tank, King Croc, Lemedor and a few wounded trogs (escaped from earlier combats), the party decided to negotiate with the following results: 1) The Pathfinders can keep any loot they've found, 2) The King will take his band of misfits and leave town, 3) The King will keep his eyes (failed Cheliax mission, no PA) and the amulet (failed Pathfinder mission, no penalties), 4) The Pathfinders are allowed to leave the sewers intact.
All in all, the second time running this both me and the players enjoyed ourselves immensely.
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We ran this with PF#13 in a special SEWER SUNDAY that had the players very very tired of sewers and lining up in a line.
Sewer Sunday eww...
My slot 0 tried something similar with the ranger pulling out his Heal skill right before the rest of the crew slaughtered it.
My biggest problem was that the mod kept saying you're going 'west' but the party enters maps from every possible angle...
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Does one denote when a character makes a contact with an NPC beyond the norm? Just wondering for future games, when exceptional relations are created.
If something very strange happens I note it in the access portion and initial, but it's not official by any stretch.
For instance one player *hates* (he said he'll not work for him) an NPC and may very well derail a certain future mod due to it. So much so he refused something very in line with his faction due to this hatred.
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Encounter #4: Trog ambush II
3 trogs and a crocodile make this encounter the hardest one yet.
Particularly for us when I rolled two crits in that encounter! We had 6 players (one level 3 - 2 level two I think - and 3 level ones) and Tier 1-2 was tough enough! The players NEEDED to rest before the final encounter, but then Lord Corgan had his TWO dominate person per day ha!ha!
No death but the level 3 guy went close to.Never seen players so happy to rampage the sewers and avidly search among the trash!
Also (spoiler space)
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the Cheliax player wanted so much not to fail his mission that he ripped-off the "required monster parts" form the Otyugh, the Crocodile and Lord Corgan! 8)
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Yesterday was the 6th time I have GMed this scenario and I had a completely off-the-wall experience. I was running Pathfinder Society at a convention and we had seven players show up to play. Three of the players had arrived together and said they'd rather play on a different table than play up to a higher tier on a seven player table. Since I tend to try and accomodate the players even when it's not practical I said "yes" and picked up #9.
These guys were in trouble from the very beginning. There was a 1st level Rogue, a 1st level Monk and a 2nd level Cleric. Not much for firepower, but these players really like to roleplay and that's what saved them (along with a cupcake GM).
Act One, I hit them with the rats for a round but I saw no reason the rats would continue to attack them after the PCs ran away. Now free of the trap, the rats dispersed into the sewers.
Act Two, the otyugh. So the PCs approached cautiously and overheard the otyugh lamenting its fate. The cleric approached and talked to the thing, offering it food and healing in exchange for her life. She rolled a nat 20 on her diplomacy check which doesn't mean auto-success but with a check of 25 I decided the otyugh was willing to talk (indifferent). She continued to role-play with the otyugh until another diplomacy check was called for when the PCs told the otyugh they would get rid of the Crocodile King and return the otyugh to its lair. They made the check which shifted the creature to friendly, and it agreed to show them to the lair. They missed the treasure in the otyugh's lair however.
Act Three, with the healed otyugh leading the way through the sewer it was the target in the ambush and naturally defended itself. The party had found a tank! The fight was still very tough and after two PCs were knocked out and the otyugh brought to zero HP by Lemedor, the creature withdrew. It was a desperate fight but the cleric managed to get Lemedor with a Protection from Evil and the fight was over. Lemedor was disarmed and sent home, but returned under the Crocodile King's control after two minutes. He was less difficult to subdue without weapons.
The PCs returned to the surface and got healed up, then bought some potions & scrolls courtesy of Lemedor's equipment. The otyugh wanted to go home but PCs exhorted the otyugh to fight on. A diplomacy check brought it to helpful. They healed it up to full and even bought it a potion of mage armor and a potion of magic fang so it could tank better. Unbelievable.
Act Four went pretty easy, with the crocodile getting grappled and unable to hit the AC 21 otyugh before getting squeezed to death.
Act Five was a tough fight even with the otyugh. Unable to grapple the size large Crocodile King, the otyugh's attacks missed a lot and the King went after the easier-to-hit PCs. One was dropped and the others were sweating it when the King went down under the rogue's sap. This was the first table to take the King alive, and subsequently they took longer to realize where the amulet was hidden. The otyugh dragged the King back to the surface and the PCs bought a keg of prune juice which was force-fed to the King until the amulet was liberated. Ewww.
Finally, the otyugh demanded the PCs help him move his trash piles back to his lair. They agreed reluctantly, but were rewarded with the remaining treasure. Total success.
Some might think I went too easy on the players and if three under-powered PCs decide to attempt a scenario they should get spanked. This was definately an exception to the way that I run my tables. I run the scenario according to the player's abilities and let the dice do the killing. But overall I believe the point of this game is to have fun, and it's no fun to drive an hour to a convention and sit out a slot because nothing is available to play at an appropriate tier.
Doug Doug, your players are awesome. In my opinion, clever thinking like this should be rewarded.
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Lehmuska, thanks for the compliment. I agree they were pretty innovative.
Chris, I had seven players show up for a game. I could run a seven player table (illegal), or a four player and a three player table (illegal), or I could tell one person they had to sit out the game. My primary objective as an organizer & GM is to help people enjoy themselves. My secondary objective is to build the membership of Pathfinder Society. After that, I worry about academic rules like the number of players at a table.
Living Greyhawk was very heavy into academic rules like legal tables. After a while the rules became more important than the game, and you see a lot of that legacy here on these discussion boards when people argue about stuff like "evil acts" or how many animals a PC can bring with them. My philosophy is if people enjoy themselves at the table, they will tell their friends and the membership will increase. When enough players show up for events that I can spread them all into tables of 4-6 people, I will then adhere to the organized play rules.
So to answer the question, technically yes I agree but in the spirit of the game I disagree. The 3-player got full credit for the scenario.
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Lehmuska, thanks for the compliment. I agree they were pretty innovative.
Chris, I had seven players show up for a game. I could run a seven player table (illegal), or a four player and a three player table (illegal), or I could tell one person they had to sit out the game. My primary objective as an organizer & GM is to help people enjoy themselves. My secondary objective is to build the membership of Pathfinder Society. After that, I worry about academic rules like the number of players at a table.
Living Greyhawk was very heavy into academic rules like legal tables. After a while the rules became more important than the game, and you see a lot of that legacy here on these discussion boards when people argue about stuff like "evil acts" or how many animals a PC can bring with them. My philosophy is if people enjoy themselves at the table, they will tell their friends and the membership will increase. When enough players show up for events that I can spread them all into tables of 4-6 people, I will then adhere to the organized play rules.
So to answer the question, technically yes I agree but in the spirit of the game I disagree. The 3-player got full credit for the scenario.
To me a 3-player table and a 7-player table are both legal. I've ran one 7-player table, and frankly I hated it. Actually even the reporting tool gives the possibility to add an extra player, so 7-player tables are legal in the given circumstances, though not adviced.
A 3-player team that beat #9 was indeed worthy of its salt. Congrats to them as well.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I've tried to find Josh's rulings on this, but I remember that the six-player cap is a soft cap (7-player and even 8-player tables are allowed, but strongly discouraged). But the 4-player minimum is a hard-and-fast rule. "If you don't have 4 players, you can't play. Period." is how I remember Josh's ruling.
For what it's worth, I would love to see this rule revised, for exactly the reason you cite: it makes the Society less fun. (And if a scenario is designed to accommodate four 1st-Level characters, it seems implausible that it's too deadly for three 3rd-Level characters.)
Perhaps a compromise rule might be in order: you must have four characters to make a party legal, but perhaps one player could run more than one character.
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My son who is about to be 10 caused a mess with this module with his Ranger (level 2). He actually talked to the Otugyh and convinced him they were friends and would kill whatever had harmed him (hence the big boss).
It was a first as he usually does not roleplay and waits on combat. The result was the players being quite prepared for later combats with an NPC that gave them a safe haven in the sewers.
We ran this with PF#13 in a special SEWER SUNDAY that had the players very very tired of sewers and lining up in a line.
you know, thats really funny. I played throuh this one already as a player(so I dont fear spoilers). when we encountered the Otuygh, me and my friends surronded him, and offered him a healing spell and a chance for revange in exchange for him helping us.
the DM, who is a rather new one, didn't know how to handle it. he ruled the the Otygh gave us his treasure.
A great post, but one that leads me to a question for you guys and gals: if we're not sticking to the 4-player minimum, how low do we go before I have to make hard-and-fast rules for play legality? Should I allow a 1-person scenario with a friendly GM? 2-person?
We set 4 as the hard minimum because the scenarios assume 4-to-6 players, leaning toward 4. We have a soft cap of 6 because a game of 7 or (rarely, please) 8 players won't get all of the players killed.
Now, I agree with Doug that the Society is about gaming, having a good time doing so, and getting your friends to join in the fun as well. At some point, though, we have to set a hard minimum and that minimum has been 4. I'm glad these guys had fun (and I'm really glad they survived!) but wonder what happens when someone reports the exact report that Doug did but says, "Oh, I just GMed my room mate through this scenario and he lived."
So where should I set the hard minimum?
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A great post, but one that leads me to a question for you guys and gals: if we're not sticking to the 4-player minimum, how low do we go before I have to make hard-and-fast rules for play legality? Should I allow a 1-person scenario with a friendly GM? 2-person?
We set 4 as the hard minimum because the scenarios assume 4-to-6 players, leaning toward 4. We have a soft cap of 6 because a game of 7 or (rarely, please) 8 players won't get all of the players killed.
Now, I agree with Doug that the Society is about gaming, having a good time doing so, and getting your friends to join in the fun as well. At some point, though, we have to set a hard minimum and that minimum has been 4. I'm glad these guys had fun (and I'm really glad they survived!) but wonder what happens when someone reports the exact report that Doug did but says, "Oh, I just GMed my room mate through this scenario and he lived."
So where should I set the hard minimum?
You should set the floor at four players and look the other way when I tell these stories :)
Seriously, I'd like to say that you should trust us to use good judgment and not abuse the system--but your example of the buddy putting his roommate through a solo adventure and miraculously surviving will doubtlessly happen. I agree that a hard floor should be set--but wait until Season One. I have about 40 players in my region right now, and I'm picking up more each month. At this point I'm willing to compromise the rules to get people to the table. Once they're hooked I can tell them "OK, Season One starts next month so we're going to need to adhere to the OP rules. No more monkey business. A table is 4-7 players. Too few and we all go home, too many and we split into another table."
The fact is that the guy who puts his roommate through the scenario could also make up three other 'ghost' PCs for his roommate to run and reports them as real people each with a PFS #. The question is how blatant is he about it? Without a hard floor it will happen a lot. With a hard floor you might not hear about it, but it is still going to happen.
I know that this is going to be another complication for Josh to deal with, but there also could be another option. I'm not from the former Bandit Kingdoms region, but I read in their metaorg book they had some sort of mercenary's guild that the PCs could hire some help from. I don't know how well it worked, but there could be some place in Absalom where a 3-player table could "hire" an NPC to fill a vacant party role. It might cost them some gold enough to make it a worst-case option, but it's better than going home. It may also be an option for a four-player table or simply if the table lacks a cleric. I realize this is going to force an expanded chapter of the upcoming PFGtOP. Josh, if someone were to write up a draft chapter of this concept would you consider it?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Josh,
I suppose my question is: why not allow small parties? So what if a GM runs his roommate through an adventure?
Here's the advantage for allowing small parties in terms of local groups:
Let's say that a group of four players has adventured through 9 scenarios, and they're all playing 4th-Level PCs now. Two new players would like to join. The way you've set up PFS experience, their characters will always be three levels behind the rest of the party. Trust me, that gets old fast.
So, the GM would like to get that new PCs caught up. After their first three adventures, as they tags along like a 1st-level lackeys in the Tier 4-5 adventures, they have 2nd-level PCs with a load of loot, and the GM would like to run them through some scenarios to catch them up.
So, why not? Seriously, what's the abuse you're seeing?
I think it's certainly fair to assume that a small party will have a hard time. 1-on-1 or parties of 2 will have to play smarter, avoiding pointless fights and designing innovative tactics. GMs will have to avoid some of the notorious killer-scenarios. Even so, there may well be a TPK. That's the breaks when you're playing with a small party.
But playing with an unbalanced party (say, all monks) is dangerous, too. It's likely to result in a TPK, but you're not arguing that a party needs to be balanced in order for the scenario to count. Small parties should be treated the same way.
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I fairness I'd say you should always stick to a 4-player table. But I can come up with a scenario where you have enlisted 4 players, but one of them just fades and doesn't arrive. Doesn't answer calls, and people have traveled far to play.
At that kind of situations I would allow a 3-player table, since this one person's disappearance would needlessly shaft the others who have arrived. Later on this missing person would deserve a beating, or something. :P
My main concern is that not every GM is like Doug Doug. He allowed his players to be creative and get through the scenario without dying horribly. Most GMs will play the system 100% the way they feel it's supposed to be played and for smaller parties running a scenario that assumes 4-to-6 players that usually means TPK. Doug Doug's story is awesome--his players made some excellent and creative choices to make their way through this scenario. For a new player experience, I bet they loved it and will return to his table. Other GMs, harsher GMs say, might not have gone easy on them in any way at all and now you have three TPKed, totally dissatisfied players who may never return.
So while Doug Doug's "rule-breaking" in this case has a positive outcome, not everyone's will. Because of this, we need to stick to a 4-player minimum as much as possible as a hard and fast "floor" for a session. I think exceptions like Doug Doug's are fine--so long as they're exceptions. :-)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Josh,
I can see your point, that a ruthless TPK stemming from overwhelming odds -rather than bad play or bad luck- could be off-putting.* But I think you're trying to solve the wrong end of the problem.
Many PFS scenarios, at their Tier 1-2 version, are perfectly playable with parties of 2 or 3, particularly if those parties are not 1st Level, and particularly if they have gear.**
(Conversely, there are other scenarios which are tough enough, and DMs who are harsh enough, that even perfectly legal parties are in deep trouble. Does it feel any better to be in a party of six 1st-Level characters, when a bolt of lightning kills the entire party in the first round of combat?)
The issue determining whether the party succeeds is the individual DM. Doug Doug's style is pretty typical of good dungeon masters: reward innovation, reward sensible caution, make sure players are having fun. There are a lot of those DMs out here, happy to run small parties on Pathfinder Society missions.
I think you'll get more benefit out of a paragraph or two of instruction to PFS DMs about how to handle weak groups: smaller parties are just one example. There's also ill-balanced parties (like the afore-mentioned all-monk group), equipment-poor parties*** and parties run by well-meaning Very New Players, who have no idea that trolls regenerate.
Remind people, again and especially, that DMing scenarios isn't like proctoring tests.
Asides:
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Aside from Fuln's urgings, are there any actual reasons for rushing through this scenario? If the PCs take out a bunch of bad guys and have no resources left is there any harm in leaving and returning later? It's not like the bad guys have anywhere else to go, right?
Why do you need to rest ? My four players party has slaughtered everything in their path. Despite the unnatural number of 20s I rolled on my new runelords dice set, they were even more horrible and wasted the whole villains crew in record time.
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Why do you need to rest ? My four players party has slaughtered everything in their path. Despite the unnatural number of 20s I rolled on my new runelords dice set, they were even more horrible and wasted the whole villains crew in record time.
Well, you had only half an hour to prepare the module, so it is perfectly understandable that the villains were not as efficient as they could have been.
Also, the Color Spray of the Sorcerer was a great boon, as usual,
The fights were not so one-sided, but we did use very appropriate tactics and had nice bits of luck
Also, the opponents were dealing some nice amount of damage but went down very easily. Since we all carry a LOT of Cure Light Wounds potions (from having previously suffered through 5 PFS modules), we were able to tackle each fight with maximum hit points, which helped immensely.
Compared to the previous fights
A single opponent, even a Large one, vs a group of high-AC characters including a 2-weapon fighting Rogue is rather one-sided.
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Encounter #4: Trog ambush II
3 trogs and a crocodile make this encounter the hardest one yet. The crocodile is a really tough beast with a lethal attack and enough hit points to be a real pain to deal with. A character KO which results in near-death. Another dead animal companion.
When we hit this encounter we thought "Crocodile, this is IT." Barbarian rages, spells get tossed, we go for broke. Fight ends FAST. Too fast...
Thank goodness for scrolls, and subdual damage (to knock out the Barbarian who turned on us... again).
All in all, this was a darn fun adventure.
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My main concern is that not every GM is like Doug Doug. He allowed his players to be creative and get through the scenario without dying horribly. Most GMs will play the system 100% the way they feel it's supposed to be played and for smaller parties running a scenario that assumes 4-to-6 players that usually means TPK. Doug Doug's story is awesome--his players made some excellent and creative choices to make their way through this scenario. For a new player experience, I bet they loved it and will return to his table. Other GMs, harsher GMs say, might not have gone easy on them in any way at all and now you have three TPKed, totally dissatisfied players who may never return.
So while Doug Doug's "rule-breaking" in this case has a positive outcome, not everyone's will. Because of this, we need to stick to a 4-player minimum as much as possible as a hard and fast "floor" for a session. I think exceptions like Doug Doug's are fine--so long as they're exceptions. :-)
Agreed 100%. You can always run these adventures outside the Society format and have a great time and do whatever you wanna do.
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This is an in character letter
My dearest Paracountess.
I am still collecting eyes for you. Are they still needed? Also do the former owners of the eyes need to be dead? I await further clarifications.
Thank you for your time.
Kneecap
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Why do you need to rest ? My four players party has slaughtered everything in their path. Despite the unnatural number of 20s I rolled on my new runelords dice set, they were even more horrible and wasted the whole villains crew in record time.Well, you had only half an hour to prepare the module, so it is perfectly understandable that the villains were not as efficient as they could have been.
True, though I usually prepare the story a lot, and the fights very little. I enjoy it more that way.
Anyways, care to show me how that Spoiler button works ? still haven't figured it.
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Why do you need to rest ? My four players party has slaughtered everything in their path. Despite the unnatural number of 20s I rolled on my new runelords dice set, they were even more horrible and wasted the whole villains crew in record time.Well, you had only half an hour to prepare the module, so it is perfectly understandable that the villains were not as efficient as they could have been.
True, though I usually prepare the story a lot, and the fights very little. I enjoy it more that way.
Anyways, care to show me how that Spoiler button works ? still haven't figured it.
It so so easy I feel silly. Thanks a lot.
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Sorry for the thread necromancy...but I just ran this scenario at our Saturday Seattle Mob Game Day.
It went really well. We managed to work some role-playing into what was otherwise pretty much a sewer-crawl slug fest.
The party did not attack the otyugh, but rather befriended him -- with a dead chicken on a stick, and some healing. Absalom Municipal Works Sewer Division Worker #10257, or "10257" for short, became a steadfast ally in the quest to get back his lair. For a time he served as a mount for the party's gnome sorcerer.
With the assistance of 10257, some of the combat were less onerous -- though the faithful otyugh went below zero after being bitten a couple of times by Lord Crocodile-Guy. (Of course the party expended more healing saving 10257 from bleeding out!)
The party and the GM had fun.
CJ
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Final battle:
Group enters the Crocodile kings lair, they are all bunched up by the entryway.
One wizard fills the room with Web and they slowly burn their way into the room.
Croc king sees the head of the party the only fighter, dominate him (lousy save by the fighter), and the fighter turns around to now attack his buddies.
Member of the party has picked up the hobbit trait to allow any member of his party to reroll any saving throw once per game!!!
Huzzah, the fighter makes the second roll and the party clean up!
One of those wow moments, that if it hadn't happened then the only fighter in the party would have turned on them and wiped the remaining party of wizards.
Totally fun!
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It is a shame they are cutting this scenario. It was one of my favorites. I ran this on the first Monday of May for my local group.
There was a ranger, fighter, bard, sorcerer and cleric. Lucky for them they had purchased wands of cure light wound. The encounter before the the big boss was cool.
The party thought that the crocodile was the abberation!
Only downside with the fighting is that it takes time. Took about 6 hours, including player OOC talk as well PFS sheets to complete.
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I GMed this the other day and we ended up short a player so a lvl 3 monk, lvl 3 paladin and lvl 3 barbarian decided to take Ezren with them an play 1-2 subtier. (Ezren provides knowledge skills, a little bit of AOE to help with swarms and the ability to use the monk's mage armor wand)
The Rats got 1 turn
The Otyugh got 0 turns
Amubsh: 1 Trog got to attack and Lemedor got to fire once.
Croc fight: Both Trogs got to throw javelins and one of them got to full attack once. The Croc only managed to attack once.
Final Fight: Dominate saved against, magic missile for max damage, bite for max damage. Nobody really cared.
Took us about 2 hours, just a boring linear sewer crawl.
Obviously was easy due to the party being over leveled but I don't see any compelling reason to keep this adventure.