Director of Games
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Hey there all,
We have released an addendum to the magic items chapter of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Beta Playtest Edition. You can find the file here.
Feel free to post questions and requests for clarifications here, but lets wait on comments and feedback until the general playtest period for magic items has begun.
Enjoy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Hey there all,
We have released an addendum to the magic items chapter of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Beta Playtest Edition. You can find the file here.
Feel free to post questions and requests for clarifications here, but lets wait on comments and feedback until the general playtest period for magic items has begun.
Enjoy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank you! I have a crazy crafting PC chomping at the bit to begin making things, and he just hit 4th level and is about to have a few days' down time. This couldn't have been timed more perfectly!
Galdor, you're makin' me work too hard!
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Director of Games
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w00t!
Are these the guidelines by which we should craft our wondrous items for RPG Superstar?
They are indeed. You will probably note that the math behind the magic items has not changed much, but there are some fine differences you might want to note.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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So I know that this has some of the magical items that where missing from the beta but I remember back in August there was another download that had magical items in there. I need something out of it for reference yet I can't find a place to download the web enhancement. Anyone know where I can find it on the site?
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Director of Games
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Clarification:
Can you take an item-creation feat now if you have no caster-level, but do have a really high applicable Craft skill? Or does the pre-requisite in the Beta (print copy) to have an appropriate caster-level still stand?
No, the feats still require a caster level, unless of course you take the feat that allows you to bypass the requirement.
The skill check is now just a component of item creation (and a means by which cursed items might actually be created). Note that the DC on most of these checks is very easy if you meet the requirements and take the appropriate amount of time.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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So I know that this has some of the magical items that where missing from the beta but I remember back in August there was another download that had magical items in there. I need something out of it for reference yet I can't find a place to download the web enhancement. Anyone know where I can find it on the site?
Hmm, that file is not where I thought it was. Let me look around and make sure that the first spells and magic items addendum is still available.
Edit: The file can be found in the Beta download documents. If you download the chapter by chapter files of the Beta, the magic item and spells addendum is part of that package.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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I don't see the rules for special materials, such as cold iron, mithral, adamantine, etc. In 3.5, those were in the creating magic items section of the DMG. Are those going to be included in the Beta rules at some point?
They will be in the final, but I do not expect them to change much.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Swank. It is very nice to see the other part of the Master Craftsman and how that will work out for both non-caster PCs and NPCs. Just no epic peasant farmers making wands of lighting, and using Use Magic Device to fire them.
Although a question comes to mind. Do these rules now establish a base price for doing spell research? If a Wizard can scribe a Scroll without knowing the spell (DC 10 + min Caster Level), that would then allow the Wizard to copy the spell off the scroll and into her spell book. I personally wouldn't mind this as the rules for "Independent Research" have been basically non-existent since 3rd. Even a 1st level spell would take a DC 11 Spellcraft, DC 16 Spellcraft, 125 gp + Material/Focus costs if any (in components), 9 hours.
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Director of Games
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In the intelligent magic items section, under Languages Spoken by Item, the last sentance reads "If the item does not possess speech, it
can still read and understand the languages it knows."However, in the next section, for Senses and Communication, the table lists Read Languages as costing an additional 1000gp and granting a +1 to Ego. This suggests that reading is an extra. Which is correct?
Hmm, that should have read "comprehend languages" as per the spell.
It will be fixed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Interesting....
I can't help but notice that the benefit of having the Master Craftsmen feat allows you to make minor magical items.
Of course, the definition of "minor" depends greatly on your character level...
Not that I'm complaining :)
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Director of Games
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Interesting....
I can't help but notice that the benefit of having the Master Craftsmen feat allows you to make minor magical items.
Of course, the definition of "minor" depends greatly on your character level...
Not that I'm complaining :)
Actually, the flavor text says that you can create "simple" magic items, but since this is flavor text, it has no bearing on the feats actual usage.
Just to clear that up...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
OK thanks. If we were to define "simple" as wondrous items, weapons and armor then it fits. I was thinking that it referred to "low powered" items.
MAGIC ITEM CREATION
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats, which
allow them to invest time and money into an item’s creation.
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single
skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes other skills) to
f inish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills,
you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to
create a magic item is 5 + the listed minimum caster level
for the item . Failing this check means that the item does not
function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this
check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items
for more information).
Only a 5+minimum caster level??? Any wizard with half a brain will be able to complete any magical item.
So if I pay an extra 1500 gp when I create a magic staff to make it intelligent, it can cast spells all by itself?
Must...resist...temptation...to comment...
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Director of Games
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So if I pay an extra 1500 gp when I create a magic staff to make it intelligent, it can cast spells all by itself?
Must...resist...temptation...to comment...
No, because the magic item cannot complete "spell trigger" items, even if it is one itself. That said, this is an enhancement you probably should be able to add, but I think the price would vary depending on the spells contained by the staff.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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So I know that this has some of the magical items that where missing from the beta but I remember back in August there was another download that had magical items in there. I need something out of it for reference yet I can't find a place to download the web enhancement. Anyone know where I can find it on the site?Hmm, that file is not where I thought it was. Let me look around and make sure that the first spells and magic items addendum is still available.
Edit: The file can be found in the Beta download documents. If you download the chapter by chapter files of the Beta, the magic item and spells addendum is part of that package.
Thanks got it to work. Now off to create the most wonderful of wondrous items.
Where is the feat that allows one to craft minor magic items at no caster level?
So if I pay an extra 1500 gp when I create a magic staff to make it intelligent, it can cast spells all by itself?
Must...resist...temptation...to comment...
No, because the magic item cannot complete "spell trigger" items, even if it is one itself. That said, this is an enhancement you probably should be able to add, but I think the price would vary depending on the spells contained by the staff.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It doesn't say anything about spell trigger items; it just says that items can activate their own powers without a command word.
I guess people will stick with self-activating rings of invisibility or rods of wonder and such.
In the initial overview for Creation, the wonderful new text reads:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours worth of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof ) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.But then, in the descriptive block for each type of magic item, the creation details wrap up with
Crafting a {Item Type Here} requires one day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price.
Granted that the intro text indicates that no more than 8 hours a day can be spent on creation and no more than one magical item can be created per day, the text as written reads as contradictory, and could be interpreted as meaning different things. Since I'm assuming that the passage in the intro was placed for the purpose of defining rules, I would rule that those guidelines apply, rather than having the crafting take a *full day* of 24 hours, as some DMs have required of my characters in prior editions.
Clarification of this would be appreciated, if only to avoid the potential for <shudder> rules-lawyering.
Also, it is indicated in that first block of text that the process can be accelerated by increasing the DC to 4 hours per 1,000 gp. Does this ability to accelerate also apply with similar math to the ability to create potions or scrolls with base prices less than 250 gp, resulting in a 1 hour creation time with a +5 DC bump?
~Doskious Steele
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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MAGIC ITEM CREATION
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats, which
allow them to invest time and money into an item’s creation.
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single
skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes other skills) to
f inish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills,
you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to
create a magic item is 5 + the listed minimum caster level
for the item . Failing this check means that the item does not
function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this
check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items
for more information).Only a 5+minimum caster level??? Any wizard with half a brain will be able to complete any magical item.
It then goes on to say:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic
item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not
meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation
feat, which is mandatory."
So, if you want to create a wand of fireballs, but don't have that spell, the DC is 10+caster level. So for 5th caster level, that's 15, which a 5th level caster could have 5 ranks, +3 class skill, and say +4 for ability, for a total of +12, which does have a chance of failure.
If you want to create an item and have 2 or more missing requisites, then your DC starts getting high enough that you can fail more easily, and even generate a cursed item.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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In table 15-22: intelligent item powers, entry 71-75 indicates that the "Item can change shape into one other form of the same size". Does this mean that an intelligent belt could change into say, and intelligent necklace, and switch what body slot it occupies?
If so, does this allow for intelligent items that are ability enhancers to occupy item slots other than belt and headband?
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So, if you want to create a wand of fireballs, but don't have that spell, the DC is 10+caster level. So for 5th caster level, that's 15, which a 5th level caster could have 5 ranks, +3 class skill, and say +4 for ability, for a total of +12, which does have a chance of failure.
If you want to create an item and have 2 or more missing requisites, then your DC starts getting high enough that you can fail more easily, and even generate a cursed item.
There's also the +5 DC for a shortened work time, if you choose to take that route. The DC can potentially get quite high, if you start getting fancy and/or pushing things.
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I really am curious now. Is it intentional that a Wizard could scribe a spell he didn't know for only a DC 10 + caster level?
At level 10, it seems fair to assume a wizard could have a Spellcraft of +18 (10 ranks, 3 class, 5 int). That means that, on a 1, he could scribe a scroll for a spell he didn't know up to the highest level spell he knows (5th level spells, 9th level caster).
Seems pretty awesome to me. Especially if he has a Blessed Book.
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Just want to say I'm extremely pleased with the creations rules and I can see a lot of the things my group has been doing for years in there as well. Its a good set up. I can also say coming from a few month run of 4th edition its nice to have some good crafting rules again. Not saying I dislike 4th just that I miss some things from OGL. Figured I'd put that out before getting shot.
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Where is the feat that allows one to craft minor magic items at no caster level?
Go here. The feat is called Master Craftsman.
Note that, with the option to increase DCs to overcome the lack of spells, flaming, shocking, holy and all the rest are now options of mundane creators.
I really am curious now. Is it intentional that a Wizard could scribe a spell he didn't know for only a DC 10 + caster level?
At level 10, it seems fair to assume a wizard could have a Spellcraft of +18 (10 ranks, 3 class, 5 int). That means that, on a 1, he could scribe a scroll for a spell he didn't know up to the highest level spell he knows (5th level spells, 9th level caster).
Seems pretty awesome to me. Especially if he has a Blessed Book.
If this is true, then this simple reason right here means I wont be using the entire PF magic creation system at all.
Its completely worthless as far as I am concerned.
It removes all the very limited fluff that we have currently have, and reduces it to spending money and skill roles. Yah... what fun.
No research to find the spells you need to create magic item X.
No adventures to track down someone that could cast that spell.
No bargain hunting or haggling in the market to acquire scroll X.
No disadvantage for wizards what so ever.
No difficult choices for spellbooks aquisition.
No disadvantages what so ever at all.
No challenge what so ever at all.
Yet another "have to remove all things negative" move that only serves to make PF more Blah then ever.
I really am curious now. Is it intentional that a Wizard could scribe a spell he didn't know for only a DC 10 + caster level?
At level 10, it seems fair to assume a wizard could have a Spellcraft of +18 (10 ranks, 3 class, 5 int). That means that, on a 1, he could scribe a scroll for a spell he didn't know up to the highest level spell he knows (5th level spells, 9th level caster).
Seems pretty awesome to me. Especially if he has a Blessed Book.
If this is true, then this simple reason right here means I wont be using the entire PF magic creation system at all.
Its completely worthless as far as I am concerned.
It removes all the very limited fluff that we have currently have, and reduces it to spending money and skill roles. Yah... what fun.
No research to find the spells you need to create magic item X.
No adventures to track down someone that could cast that spell.
No bargain hunting or haggling in the market to acquire scroll X.
No disadvantage for wizards what so ever.
No difficult choices for spellbooks aquisition.No disadvantages what so ever at all.
No challenge what so ever at all.Yet another "have to remove all things negative" move that only serves to make PF more Blah then ever.
I see it as more, you still need the requirements to make the item, but if you yourself arent the one providing the requirement the dc increases by 5.
ie: wand of fireball, you can't cast fireball but the wizard can (and he doesn't know craft wand), you can do it with a +5 difficulty.
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I really am curious now. Is it intentional that a Wizard could scribe a spell he didn't know for only a DC 10 + caster level?
Ooooooo ... this basically takes the place of spell research? If Balto Blastum needs Kelgore's Fire Bolt out of DMG2, he can just scribe a scroll at DC 11? If so, he can then make a further Spellcraft check to learn the spell, and inscribe it in his book permanently ...
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Yet another "have to remove all things negative" move that only serves to make PF more Blah then ever.
This is a bit vehement. If a caster fails their DC check, their materials and money are wasted. There is now an explained reason for how cursed items come into play. Some stuff here is great, in my opinion.
You are speaking like this is set in stone. If you find it too easy, make a constructive argument to Jason when the time to review this section comes up, like increasing the DC by 5, or increasing the DC by 10 for every prerequisite that they don't have ...
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I really am curious now. Is it intentional that a Wizard could scribe a spell he didn't know for only a DC 10 + caster level?Ooooooo ... this basically takes the place of spell research? If Balto Blastum needs Kelgore's Fire Bolt out of DMG2, he can just scribe a scroll at DC 11? If so, he can then make a further Spellcraft check to learn the spell, and inscribe it in his book permanently ...
That's what I had thought, though I just wanted to make sure it was intended to be like that. I didn't think of it nearly as vehemently as the first opinion...
If anything, to me, it seems like crafting has MORE fluff now than before, or at least some more explanation. In 3.5 there wasn't any more fluff and it was just a lot of guess work.
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Yet another "have to remove all things negative" move that only serves to make PF more Blah then ever.This is a bit vehement. If a caster fails their DC check, their materials and money are wasted. There is now an explained reason for how cursed items come into play. Some stuff here is great, in my opinion.
You are speaking like this is set in stone. If you find it too easy, make a constructive argument to Jason when the time to review this section comes up, like increasing the DC by 5, or increasing the DC by 10 for every prerequisite that they don't have ...
I was thinking that very thing. If you don't have one of the prerequisites, increase the DC by 10. Also, i think it'd be a good idea to add something like "If you don't have a prerequisite spell, you must have someone cast it for you." At least that way Wizards aren't scribing their own scrolls they don't know, for no explained reason.
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Director of Games
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Yet another "have to remove all things negative" move that only serves to make PF more Blah then ever.
Actually, this is the sort of catch that is the reason why we are doing this playtest. You should not be able to create spell trigger and completion items (such as scrolls, wands, and stafffs) without the appropriate spells... as that makes very little sense. The intent here, was to allow someone to create a gauntlet of rust without knowing rusting grasp.
That said, I am thinking more that there should be two types of penalty, a –5 for having someone else meet the prereq, and a significantly higher penalty for not meeting the prereq at all.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
PS: Kong, you really should try to work with the playtest here instead of against it. This is the first time anyone outside Paizo has seen these rules and we knew there were going to be some changes, but your tone is not very helpful.
Yet another "have to remove all things negative" move that only serves to make PF more Blah then ever.This is a bit vehement. If a caster fails their DC check, their materials and money are wasted. There is now an explained reason for how cursed items come into play. Some stuff here is great, in my opinion.
You are speaking like this is set in stone. If you find it too easy, make a constructive argument to Jason when the time to review this section comes up, like increasing the DC by 5, or increasing the DC by 10 for every prerequisite that they don't have ...
I think the entire idea that you can simply do away with prerequisites with a skill roll to be utter rubbish. It fixes nothing, and creates yet more problems.
All this does is create yet another way for Wizards to max out thier spellbook with every single known spell.
It gives no explanation on how someone can scribe a fireball scroll, and no nothing about being able to cast said fireball in the first place. Then it allows that same wizard to learn how to cast Fireballs, from reading the scroll he just now created.
It creates an entire world where any wizard can create any magic item, no specialists. No having to actually earn the knowledge, by learning prerequisites knowledge. No flavor... just another roll and a hand wave.
Where is the problem that this "change" is suspose to address? Thier are none, its just yet another "have to remove all things negative" move.
Its not even fun, it isnt remotely rewarding, and its hardly memorable. Yawn, (rolls a dice)... created another magical... Oh yah... next.
Rant over... need a breather.... and will try to learn to communicate better.
I still need to play with item creation rules to see how the DCs work out. I will also be looking at how using items to help make other items will work. After that was the old method if you didn't know a spell, just use an existing magic item to cast it for you.
However I would still like to take the opportunity to point out that there are no rules for spell research (aside from the crafting rule just presented, which are likely going to be changed).
"Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
That is not a rule, or even a guideline. There is no time suggestion, no gold suggestion, no Spellcraft or Knowledge check suggestion, nothing to help a DM adjudicate this. I strongly urge you to address this rather considerable flaw that remains from 3rd Edition.
*edit*
Kong, I can understand where your coming from however as it stands there aren't any viable rules that back up the Independent Research option that has been in the game for years. This is a problem and has created an artificial scavenger hunt mentality for Wizard characters.
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Yet another "have to remove all things negative" move that only serves to make PF more Blah then ever.Actually, this is the sort of catch that is the reason why we are doing this playtest. You should not be able to create spell trigger and completion items (such as scrolls, wands, and stafffs) without the appropriate spells... as that makes very little sense. The intent here, was to allow someone to create a gauntlet of rust without knowing rusting grasp.
That said, I am thinking more that there should be two types of penalty, a –5 for having someone else meet the prereq, and a significantly higher penalty for not meeting the prereq at all.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingPS: Kong, you really should try to work with the playtest here instead of against it. This is the first time anyone outside Paizo has seen these rules and we knew there were going to be some changes, but your tone is not very helpful.
I agree with the bolded statement, but the rules as they are now, to me at least, seem conflicting. At the beginning of the Making Magic Items section, it seems like it says you dont have to meet the prerequisites. Then at the begining of the appropriate magic item section (armour, weapons, rods, etc.) it says you must have the prerequisite spells..
I wholeheartedly agree with the italic statement.. -5 for having someone else meet a prereq. for you, -10+ for not having it at all..
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So, something like:
Crafter uses someone else to fill in a spell requirement: +2
Crafter ignores a requirement entirely: +5
Requirement ignored is for a spell completion or spell trigger item: +5
Those being modifications to the DC to create it. So let's use a Wand of Fireball or Belt of Dexterity +2 as an example.
Wand of Fireball - Base DC 10 (5 + caster level 5)
If crafter has another wizard/sorc expend a fireball spell each day of crafting for him: DC 12
If crafter ignores the Fireball spell requirement entirely: DC 20
Belt of Dexterity +2 - Base DC 13 (5 + caster level 8)
If crafter has another caster expend a Cat's Grace slot each day of crafting: DC 15
If crafter ignores the Cat's Grace requirement entirely: DC 18
I'm all for more modifiers to help clarify things.
However I would still like to take the opportunity to point out that there are no rules for spell research (aside from the crafting rule just presented, which are likely going to be changed).
"Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
That is not a rule, or even a guideline. There is no time suggestion, no gold suggestion, no Spellcraft or Knowledge check suggestion, nothing to help a DM adjudicate this. I strongly urge you to address this rather considerable flaw that remains from 3rd Edition.
3.5 DMG has info for Creating New Spells (pgs 35-36). Combine that with the Arcane Magical Writings section from PHB (pgs 178-179)and it is a workable system for spell research. But you are correct that there is no solid, clearly defined system for this aspect of the game. Not sure if those same rules are in SRD.