|
summoners are very good, and can really change the odds of any battle. this is especially nice at low levels.
if we're talking on a role-playing basis, then any choice you make is a good choice for your character.
but if we're talking what mechanics work best...
if you want to go quantity of spells over quality, start with a 1st level human conjurer (give up abjuration and illusion) from cheliax. take spell focus (conjuration) as your replacement for scribe scroll, augment summoning as your 1st level feat, skill focus (concentration) as your human feat, and master of pentacles as your faction feat. take second level as druid, then bounce back and forth between the two. at 3rd level, take extend spell (though you won't be able to use it until 5th level). this build allows you not to worry about taking quicken spell, as you won't be able to use it before you retire. while you'll have less powerful spells than a straight classed summoner, you'll have the ability to change out prepared druid spells, you'll have a greater number of available spells to cast, and the master of pentacles feat will apply to both sets of spells. also, a lot of druid spells will be able to fill in for the lost wizard abjuration spells. your animal companion will also be a big advantage, especially if you don't want to leave yourself unguarded on the field.
if you're look for quality over quantity, start the same way, but progress solely in conjurer. like the cinjurer/ druid, take extend spell at 3rd level (and in this case, you'll be able to use it immediately). Improved initiative is a good choice for your 6th level feat, and quicken spell is a must for 9th level. in this case, you'll lose out on the sheer number of spells as well as the additional druid niceties, but you'll be accquiring higher level spells much more quickly.
now, if we were using non-open material, we could have a great long discussion on the awesome brokeness of the arcane heirophant prestige class. :)
Alternately, you could try a Chelaxian Conjurer/Druid for a while and hope that Mystic Theurge gets opened up at some point. That strikes me as quite frightening . . .
|
A human Druid from Cheliax with Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning and Master of Pentacles is a force to be reckoned with.
Spontaneous summoning means you'll never actually have to prepare a summoning spell, thus opening your spell slots for ever-useful stuff like buffs, healing and control spells. In addition to this, Nature's Ally spells generally summon stronger creatures than the Summon Monster series, which is nice. The only problem with said build is that Spell Focus (Conjuration) is ultimately wasted on the Druid, as they have almost no conjuration spells that allow for saving throws.
Another option worthy of considering is the Cleric summoner. With Asmodeus as your deity you can get the Law domain which'll grant you a +1 to your caster levels with all spells with the Law description, including summoning spells that summon lawful creatures. That's another extra round for your summoned creatures.
Seriously, with Master of Pentacles summoners can pretty much rule the battlefield.
|
Just to jump on what darn near everyone has already said, Master of Pentacles is pretty much the hottest regional feat in the document (IMO), and if you're going for a Summoner build, not being from Cheliax is gonna be a painful sacrifice.
A Chelaxian Cleric with Law or Fire could be based around summoning and controlling creatures (Fire would allow him the option of rebuking/commanding fire subtype critters).
A LN Chelaxian Druid might want to 'tame' the natural world, just as his Clerical kin want to bring mankind under the domain of Hell, so the 'helltamer' Druid would want to prune and domesticate the natural world. His animal companion might have orange-red eyes and a black coat, looking like a rottweiler with some hell hound ancestry...
A Chelaxian Conjuror / Wizard might want to be a Hellknight Signifier of the Order of the Gate, an order devoted specifically to summoning and binding outsiders.
|
I would first ask what kind of druid would serve Cheliax and its goals? Druids are one of the most difficult classes to role play within the faction system of PFS, because where's their motivation supposed to come from? I don't want this thread to degenerate into an argument about how to justify a sweet character build through role-play. But before anyone makes a Druid-Master-of-Pentacles-from-Cheliax think about how a druid's ethos connects to "Hell on Golarion...bring order to chaos, quell the troublesome concepts of freedom and self-determination, and leave broken souls eager to accept the bondage of slavery..." besides just saying, "My character is insane, that's why".
EDIT-I stand by what I said, but it appears that Set was answering that question just as I was writing it. I don't buy it, but that's just one person's opinion.
|
|
But before anyone makes a Druid-Master-of-Pentacles-from-Cheliax think about how a druid's ethos connects to "Hell on Golarion...bring order to chaos, quell the troublesome concepts of freedom and self-determination, and leave broken souls eager to accept the bondage of slavery..." besides just saying, "My character is insane, that's why".
EDIT-I stand by what I said, but it appears that Set was answering that question just as I was writing it. I don't buy it, but that's just one person's opinion.
Tangent stuff spoilered for the Dolce,
Cheliax
Maximilian (LN) believes that hell is indeed coming to Golarion, and that it is his duty to make sure that the world is prepared for the coming storm, that every beast knows its role and its masters, and that even the plants of the field are orderly and bent in submission. He is the gardener, who will prune and shape all things according to the great design, and ensure that, as man learns his place below Hell, so too will the wild things learn their place below man. The consequence of failure is too great to consider, as any creature that cannot be made to submit will no doubt be purged by fire by the worlds new masters...
For any part of Earth's ecosystem to survive the upcoming Infernal Ascension, the weak and unecessary must be trimmed away, like a strict but loving gardener pulling weeds out so that the garden as a whole can survive, while the strong are prepared and made stronger. The Clerics of Asmodeus prepare the people of Cheliax for their role in the new order of things. The Druids of Asmodeus (and there wouldn't be a whole lot of them, I'd imagine) would prepare the beasts of the field, as it isn't just the people who are going to be plunged into Hell, it's the entire world, tree and branch, fish and fowl. For horse and hound to survive and thrive in a world where nightmares and hell hounds walk beside them, they must be prepared.
And that's just the Druids who *like* nature. A (non-Pathfinder Society) Druid can be NE and consider nature a tool to be exploited and thrown against their enemies, revering it's destructive power and the cold beauty of the cycle of life and death, and 'only the strong survive,' just as a Ranger can be an evil hunter of animals for sport or acclaim.
Other faction-specific Druids;
N Dunewalker of Osirioni ('riding dog' is a sleek desert saluqi / greyhound like creature, all sharp lines and tall-eared.
Shemsa Sobk was raised among desert-dwelling Garundi caravaneers, learning at an early age that she would receive more attention from the horses, camels and hounds, while her harried parents were too busy on matters of commerce to attend to her comings and goings, which grew increasingly pronounced, as she would veer from the prepared paths and find herself a moment of privacy, with just herself and her faithful hound, Ashti, who was a sickly pup, expected to die.
Shemsa first discovered rune-protected ruins in her travels (having been forced to take shelter in one ruin when a sudden sandstorm made it impossible to rejoin the caravan), and discovered that the ancient faltering magics served to block the worst of the storm's fury, with sand skittering off of an invisible barrier right before her eyes as she stood in the threshold of a fallen building of some sort. Enthralled by the mysterious glyphs that decorated the stone, faded but still visible, glimmering in the darkness as their ancient magics worked their mysteries, Shemsa determined to learn all that she could of the ancient buried magics that lay in the desert, treasures of a past that did not deserve to be abandoned. As a matter of practicality, she also revealed her discovery to her parents, who have taken advantage of this long-forgotten place as a temporary shelter themselves, grateful that their adventurous daughter stumbled upon such a fortuitous discover (and grateful, as well, that she had survived the storm!).
As a Pathfinder, Shemsa serves as a wilderness guide, and has only the barest experience working outside of her desert home, but now she finds that she must work outside of her element, if she is to build her influence among the Pathfinder Society, so that she might lead expeditions of her own.
**************
LN Warden of Taldan ('riding dog' is a purebred irish wolfhound looking thing, gangly, but elegantly groomed. Druid is apprenticed to a reeve who maintains a 'hunting preserve' for noblemen, making sure that the hoi-polloi don't poach the noble's deer, the trails are clear and well-maintained and that the wild boar are appropriately 'challenging.' As apprentice, he spent more time training and maintaining the stables, so Profession (animal trainer).)
***************
CN Wildman of Andoran (companion is an eagle, celebrates the freedom of men, taking upon themselves the best traits of governance from the beasts of the wild, to rule themselves and serve only those who earn their respect, regardless of birth. The trappings of civilization, such as monarchy, are constructs of men, not of nature, and their downfall is cause for great rejoicing. Profession (guide) for leading insurgents / escaped slaves / etc. through the wilderness.)
***************
Obviously these are all fairly gross examples of Druids who are hyper-focussed towards the goals of their factions, and yet have reason to be 'Pathfindering' to increase their power and prominence in the faction, so that they can lead missions and funnel resources towards their own agendas.
|
|
First of all I have to say my hat is off to Ian (Set) for proving me wrong on the topic of how a druid's ethos conflicts with the Cheliax faction's goals making them incompatable. I just hope that he doesn't start a movement of Hell-Tamer druid clones. Anyways, as much as I would stay away from the Cheliax faction if I were to play a druid, I do admire the imagination shown in the argument. As long as the role-play supports the background, I actually wouldn't mind sharing the table with a Chelaxian Hell-Tamer druid. Nice concepts Set. I don't want to divert this thread away from the topic though so I'll end with that.
if you want to go quantity of spells over quality, start with a 1st level human conjurer (give up abjuration and illusion) from cheliax. take spell focus (conjuration) as your replacement for scribe scroll, augment summoning as your 1st level feat, skill focus (concentration) as your human feat, and master of pentacles as your faction feat. take second level as druid, then bounce back and forth between the two. at 3rd level, take extend spell (though you won't be able to use it until 5th level). this build allows you not to worry about taking quicken spell, as you won't be able to use it before you retire. while you'll have less powerful spells than a straight classed summoner, you'll have the ability to change out prepared druid spells, you'll have a greater number of available spells to cast, and the master of pentacles feat will apply to both sets of spells. also, a lot of druid spells will be able to fill in for the lost wizard abjuration spells. your animal companion will also be a big advantage, especially if you don't want to leave yourself unguarded on the field.
*facepalm*
Now that my initial reaction has been made clear, let's see what this Multiclass build actually does in comparison to a single class summoner. 'll use a wizard or druid as a single classed summoner and a wizard/druid multiclass as a multiclassed summoner. I'll assume the wizard is generalist, because a single classed conjurer would get even more spells than what my analysis below shows.
At 1st level, this is identical to a single class summoner, so we'll skip to level 2.
At level 2 this is actually better than a single classed summoner, because a single classed summoner only gains one extra 1st level spell and this one'll gain two, assuming both casting stats are at least 12. (If they aren't, somebody made a big mistake).
At level 3 we'll start to see what this build is about. This build has 5 1st level spell slots, assuming bonus spells from a not-so high stat of 12. A single classed summoner will also have 5 spell slots, although two of them are 2nd level spells. This assumes a slightly higher casting stat of 14. In this case the single classed summoner wins in quality and quantity, because his 2nd level summons can be used to either summon bigger and meaner creatures, or 1d3 (averges 2) creatures from summon (monster/nature's ally)I list. Also, single classed summoner's summons last for 5 rounds while multiclass summoner's summons last 3 and 4 rounds. Oh yeah, somewhere around this level the single classed summoner begins to wonder why he took master of pentacles at all. Most fights are over in three or four rounds, so his surviving summons will start to outlast the fight they were summoned in.
At level 4 the multiclassed summoner has 6 1st level slots and the single classed summoner has 4 1st level slots and 3 2nd level slots. 7 slots total.
At 5th level multiclassed summoner (MS from now on) has 6 1st level slots and 2 2nd level slots (assuming casting stats of at least 12 and 13 when the character was made. 4th level stat bump increases the 13 to 14), 8 slots total. Single classed summoner (SS from now on) has 4 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots and 2 3rd level slots, assuming a casting stat of at least 15 at start (+1 ability increase brings this to 16) 9 slots total.
At 6th level MS has 6 1st level slots, 4 2nd level slots, assuming casting stats of at least 13 and 14 (I'll stop explaining how to put ability increases to gain bonus spells from now on.) Total slots 10 slots. SS has 4 1st level slots, 4 2nd level slots and 3 3rd level slots. total 11 slots.
This continues as levels go on. The single classed summoner will win at total spell slots as well as total effective summons (ie. 2nd level spell is worth two forst level spell, because it has the effect of two 1st level spells.)
---
Now that I've established it's not a mechanically sound idea to make a multiclassed summoner, I could give some actual advice on creating a summoner.
If one wants power, one should go with druid. Druid can spontaneously cast summons, and has summons with bigger hit points, attacks and damage.
On the other hand, classes that draw from summon monster list (Cleric, Sorcerer & Wizard) aren't bad at summoning either. Summon monster lists have less power but more trics one can use. For example, Summon monster III list includes Dretch, a demon that can cast stinking cloud once per day. Stinking cloud is also a 3rd level spell. This means that a cleric or a sorcerer who can't cast stinking cloud could get the effect by summoning a dretch. Another point going for summon monster is ease of communication. Every creature in a summon monster list understands at least one language (typical languages are infernal, celestial and abyssal, depending on creature's alignment). In contrast, druidic summoners have to roll handle animal (and waste a move action) to get their summons to follow a plan.
Clerics are perhaps weakest summoners*, as both their alignment and their deity's alignment restricts their list of available summons. A cleric of Asmodeus can't summon a chaotic or good creature. On the other hand, summons have casting time of 1 round, so cleric has the advantage of higher AC and smaller chance of being hit while summoning that heavy armor brings. If one wants to make a powerful clerical summoner, one should be neutral servant of a neutral deity to avoid restricting oneself from any summon one might need at some point.
Sorcerers are good at summoning. A typical summoner should prepare mostly summon monster spells anyway, so getting to cast more of them in a day is a good thing. Summons are also quite versatile, giving sorcerer more to do with his limited number of known spells.
Wizards are alse good at summoning, as they get higher level summons before sorcerers. A summoner should specialize in conjuration and give up evocation and some other school. Summon monster replicates evocation well enough that one can live without it. Another school to give up might be enchantment, because lots of creatures are immune to the school anyway. Illusion is worth keeping simply for invisibility, as summoning monsters won't dispel invisibility. Abjuration should be kept mainly because of dispel magic and shield, which both can be lifesavers. Transmutation should be kept because it offers many wonderful spells to buff your summons and meatshields with (haste comes to mind). Necromancy could be given up, although it offers a few nice spells (ray of enfeeblement for example).
*This hasn't stopped me from playing a summoning cleric of Asmodeus in PFS.
Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
|
I've decided on making a summoner. figured it would be fun to summon some extra help on the battefield just not sure which way to go. I could go Wizard and specialize in conjuration spells, and take augment summon feat giving my summoned creature +4 str and +4 con making them hit harder and last longer. Or i could go Druid and have spells to buff my summoned creatures as well as my familiar. also have the ability to summon creatures without having to use up a spell slot. Although i would have to give up a spell if i chose to do so. But i was also thinking of doing Druid/Wizard which would allow me to have offensive as well as defensive spells. and would allow me to still summon creatures when i want to give up a druid spell. Just not sure i augment summoning would count for druids summoned creatures. Either way i was thinking of going Elf since that would give me access to better long range weapons. Let me know what you think. All ideas and suggestions welcome.
No matter which way you go Augment summon affects "creatures conjured by a summon spell". This was (still is) a powerful spell for any druid. If you want to really summon an army, make a druid/wizard Mystic Theurge
Mystic theurges are an interesting subject, because they're not allowed in the campaign for player characters.
Although a summoning mystic theurge loses in summoning to a regular summoner. By 6th level the mystic theurge wannabe has given up three caster levels in both casting classes. As you can read from my last post, this is really bad situation for summoners, and both quality and quantity of summons is based more on spell level than in the individual slots a summoner might have.
Mystic theurge does not offer quantity of summons, it offers endurance. That is, a mystic theurge can cast more spells per day than a regular summoner. This is meaningless, because there won't be that many combats per day in PFS. If a regular summoner does just fine with their spells (hint: they do) they won't be needing more weaker spells that mystic theurge offers.
|
|
Mystic theurge does not offer quantity of summons, it offers endurance. That is, a mystic theurge can cast more spells per day than a regular summoner. This is meaningless, because there won't be that many combats per day in PFS. If a regular summoner does just fine with their spells (hint: they do) they won't be needing more weaker spells that mystic theurge offers.
And there's the vital point. It's meta, but true. In a PFS game, you're guaranteed to have at least three other players at the table, so it's *much* more important to be good at one thing, than be behind the curve at multiple things.
In a seventh level game, a 3rd level Druid / 3rd level Wizard / 1st level Mystic Theurge is going to be using Summon Monster II to fight EL 9 encounters. Having twice as many useless and outdated summons amounts to a fat stack of jack.
I'm not sure that "IMHO" and "it's stupid" go hand-in-hand, but there you go. :-)
As for the question, you buy it priced as a scroll made by a wizard etc but you use it as a summoner. I have to add some text there to make that more clear. And though James strenuously disagrees with this rule, there are many who like it and understand its necessity.
|
Just to jump on what darn near everyone has already said, Master of Pentacles is pretty much the hottest regional feat in the document (IMO), and if you're going for a Summoner build, not being from Cheliax is gonna be a painful sacrifice.
No love for Qadira?
Genie-Caller: Your exploration of the magic for calling
genies has increased your overall aptitude for summoning
creatures. Once per day, you may cast one conjuration
(summoning) spell as if your caster level were 2 higher than
normal.
And you are still free to be in whatever faction you want, assuming you are from Qadira.
Oh, and much love for Keleshite Princess :)
|
Summoning via a summoner can quickly get out of hand. We have a good, smart, fast player in our group who has elected to spam summoned monsters as battle tactic. He has a second level summoner with the summon monster I spell, and his eidolon has the summon monster I spell like ability.
So, in the second round of combat, he's controlling:
1) His summoner, whose primary battle tactic is throwing bolas to trip foes
2) His eidolon, which pounces into combat with three attacks.
3) A summoned eagle via the class ability, with 3 attacks.
4) A summoned eagle from his summon monster I
5) A summoned eagle from his eidolon's summon monster I.
This gives him 13 attack rolls at level 2. It's an effective nova round, but it slows combat to a crawl.
I was playing my own 3rd level summoner at the table, but with a single-attack-focuses bipedal eidolon. Even though I'm also a fast player with numbers at the ready during my turn, that's still at least 3 creatures for me to control.
The upshot: I've learned summoners really slow down a PFS table, and some summoners slow it down a lot.
Summoning via a summoner can quickly get out of hand.
And that right there is why we felt playtesting the APG classes in PFS was a good idea. :-)
Thanks for the feedback!
|
|
So how does a summoner buy a scroll of barkskin? Or for that matter any of the summoner or bard spells that aren't wizard spells?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's the same price as if a druid were to create the scroll. Meaning that it would be 125 gp to buy a scroll of barkskin and it is effectively hand-waived that it's an arcane scroll rather than divine. It doesn't fit with the generic rule of arcane vs. divine scroll, but I believe this is how Josh would like it to work. I can see both arguments, but in this case Josh is the DM and it works fine.
What they said.
I think I've been quite clear on what I want it to do. What I haven't been clear on is how it was expressed in v2.2. Once I've updated v2.2 with the change, then you can poke at me some more about the change. :-)
|
|
What they said.So you're going to be lowering the price of arcane scrolls of barkskin, silence and the like?
Why?
Really, why?
Let's go through this.
You essentially raised the price of lesser restoration because some people were paying 150gp (not 125gp) rather than 25gp for scrolls of it because they didn't 'know any better'.
Now other people who know the Pathfinder rules, but not this society house rule will pay 200gp for arcane scrolls of barkskin and silence rather than 150gp.
By the same logic can we just go back to the core rules?
Your house rule doesn't make things simpler. It raises and lowers the prices on these items. And if the normal rules confused some people, these rules will confound others.
Again is the goal here simply to raise the price on a few spells? Why not just directly errata that? Make lesser restoration a 2nd level paladin spell instead of a 1st level one.
If X number of people were confused that there existed cheaper consumables of some spells (because they appeared on multiple spell lists) then how many people will be confused that you can purchase a scroll of something that no one can scribe? (e.g. a 3rd CL arcane scroll of silence).
Do we need to mandate that all wands of greater magic weapon are made by clerics rather than by wizards? If the confusion was to fix this we have spells shared on the cleric, wizard and druid lists that have different spell levels. Why not fix that too?
It doesn't scan Josh. What do you want this rule to do?
-James
I know I'm probably stepping and responding where I shouldn't. But I'd like to point out that 3.5 has generally worked this way. If you're buying a scroll of lesser restoration, it's ALWAYS been assumed that a cleric created it. The 3.5 SRD has a list of commonly created scrolls. Lesser restoration is listed as a 2nd level spell instead of a 1st level spell and at the price of 150 gp. In most campaigns, the DM is going to say that you're going to have to go out of your way to find a paladin who actually took the scribe scroll feat (just ask around how many PCs actually do that).
The only part about this that isn't confusing (or simple) is the arcane/divine divide. Otherwise it simplifies the rules into a set rule of cleric/druid/wizard spell level*Minimum caster level*25.
|
|
By that logic you could not purchase a 3rd CL arcane scroll of magic missile. Is that your intent here?
Actually, from what I understand that is the intent, that you can't buy a scroll/wand at higher CL than minimum unless shown on the chronicle sheet. That's why having those at higher CL on a chronicle is actually a "good" item to get. Don't quote me on that, but that's the impression that I've gotten from the fact that crafting is banned from PFS.
Secondly, that list is simply a quick list for DMs to make random treasure rewards rather than a shopping list (you'll note the % listings to the left of each spell). It doesn't contain everything by far. When used as a 'shopping list' it creates a good deal of silly problems. LG went through this and I'm hoping that Pathfinder Society will go along with Paizo in doing better than WOTC. So far they have.
You can make a list, if you are so inclined, of spells that you could not buy in scroll form off that list at any CL (let alone min). But far worse are the lists of potions and wands.
As for the lists, I wasn't saying that's all that's available, I'm just saying that the SRD implies that these are the "basic" stuff for players to buy. As much as you may not think of it as a shopping list, in real life terms I'd say about 80% of players use it that way, at least in the games I've GMed and played in. I understand, and agree, that in a normal D&D game it would be possible to go buy a scroll of whatever you like, but don't forget that PFRPG restricted treasure by quite a bit.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table: Random Magic Item Generation to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community's base value.
So bottom line, what is Pathfinder Society gaining from this rule?
All I can say is simplicity. Give a smaller list of items that people can buy, focus the game on role-playing and scenario rather than power grabbing, and make wealth equally distributed because players. This is the same reason for the ban of crafting.
At least this is my 2 cp. I understand you probably still won't agree with it, but at least see where the ruling is coming from.
|
I believe that what PFS gains from this (correct me if I'm wrong, please, Josh) is across the board fairness about access to things such as scrolls and wands. Simply put, it's just not really fair if a first level paladin can spend 2 prestiege points after his/her first module and get a wand of lesser restoration for free as his/her faction item of 750 gp or less when a cleric would have to wait until having played enough modules to get have 18 PA to be able to go out and buy the same wand for 4500 gp. Not fair, and extremely frustrating for the player of the cleric. This way, both characters have to wait until they have 18 PA and 4500 gp to buy the wand, which IS fair.
I could be wrong, but I believe this is the intent in saying that all magic items should be priced as if a cleric/wizard/druid made them for spells that are shared by multiple character class lists. And if this is the intent, then I most heartily agree with it.
No, the prices have always been the same for all players regardless of class. A Paladin NPC could sell the Wand of Lesser Restoration for only 750, but any player could buy it at that price regardless of class.
I believe that if your PA is high enough then you can purchase a 3rd caster level scroll of magic missile.
This is incorrect. You may buy a wand or scroll at higher than minimum caster level only if it is expressly listed on a past chronicle. When determining the minimum caster level for all wands or scrolls, use cleric, wizard, or druid caster levels unless a spell exists only on a different class's spell list.
Mark,
Where did I give that impression?
Mark,
Where did I give that impression?
In another thread a while back wherein you told Noel and a few others that they needed to convert their higher-CL wands purchased with PA into minimum-level wands. Lemme see if I can find it and edit this post in a minute.
|
|
In another thread a while back wherein you told Noel and a few others that they needed to convert their higher-CL wands purchased with PA into minimum-level wands. Lemme see if I can find it and edit this post in a minute.Mark,
Where did I give that impression?
I seem to recall this same thread, which is why I said the original statement. Let me look at well...