There's this game called Heroes Unlimited by Palladium Books, which features an assortment of super abilities to create your make-believe superhuman. Among this selection, the Invulnerability ability was present of course, and used to cause all kinds of grief among inexperienced or otherwise uncreative GMs because well, it's just like dealing with Superman, and the the rookie GMs freak out and go all "OMFG he can't die! He can't be defeated! What am I gonna do!?"
Of course, Heroes Unlimited isn't the only game where characters can attain invincibility one way or another (Insane ACs, DR, deception spells, feats Kung-Fu, etc), nor isn't the only game where rookie GMs freak out and start crying nerf left and right. Well, as I said, it's just like dealing with Superman, and lo in Superman lies the Answer.
Superman-writing 101: How to write an interesting story featuring the Man of Steel under the d20 system?
Premise: Superman is invulnerable, immune to earth diseases, and the strongest post-human in the DC d20 universe. This is our premise and Congruence Contract, so we're free to do anything as long as we stick to this basic.
Superman is near invincible, so clearly hack&slash can't be the highlight of the story. If we want to challenge the Man of Steel we'll have to strike at him from a different angle, and tailor a challenge where his might alone won't pull him through:
Untouchable Enemies: Lex Luthor is a respectable, upstanding citizen, who also happens to be one of the most powerful and influential men in the world. Superman twarts his schemes time and time again, and yet he can't put him behind bars because he can never get proof of his involvement in any of his crimes. Sure, he can kill him, but then that would turn him into a criminal, give half of the world's post-human community an excuse to hunt him down, and also wreak havok in global economy courtesy of Lexcorp's fallout.
Indirect Strikes: Superman may not be harmed, but he can be destroyed by striking at his heart, whatever he cares for. The only reason why the criminal element hasn't left him at least a couple messages through Lois Lane yet is DC's need to keep the comic PG-13.
Hostage Situations: This may require applying some, well, common sense on the part of the GM to make a judgement call and allow a villain who is hiding behind a human shield with a dagger to his/her neck being able to Ready a Coup de Grace if Superman tries anything funny. Still, he can Ready his finger on the detonator to a bombed building without the need of rules adjustments (I pulled that one on the superhero game I'm running... your choice good guy, me or the people?).
Treachery: Oh these heroes have such big, red, caramel-like buttons that's almost rude not to press them here and there in order to trick them into doing just what you expect them to, usually to their detriment.
Life's a B1tch: Can Superman stop a star that's reached the end of its life cycle from freeing half its materials as it turns into a White Dwarf, killing all life in its orbiting planets? Can Superman stop an earthquake? Life's plenty of things even the Man of Steel can't control.
Depowering: The kryptonie/red sun syndrome. The quick way out, and the easiest to pull. Fortunately for DC Universe, both things are a rare resource, available to no one but a handful of individuals in the world, as abusing that resource would be the comic-equivalent of pre-emptive gaming, and readers would ask what's the point of advertising him as the Man of Steel if he's going to be depowered every other episode? Cheap as they come, so obviously not something I recommend unless you're clearly not a creative writer.
Superman happens, invincible characters happen. Are your GMing skills up to the challenge?
|
An interesting post, but hampered by the fact that you're talking about fiction writing, which is a solo activity, and not RPG and adventure design, which relies on group collaboration.
As a writer, you're free to force Superman to nobble himself, with inefficient concepts as 'love' and 'honour', but you can't force a player to do so, especially a player who gets his jollies from rubbing your nose in how OMFG!AW3Z0M3!!!1!1! his character is.
As a writer, you're free to force Superman to nobble himself, with inefficient concepts as 'love' and 'honour', but you can't force a player to do so, especially a player who gets his jollies from rubbing your nose in how OMFG!AW3Z0M3!!!1!1! his character is.
The simple answer to that is to refuse to allow nigh-invulnerable characters without suitable role-playing restrictions which can be ruthlessly exploited when necessary. When playing my "Superman-esque" character, rather unassumingly known simply as Geoff, I had arranged that he was empowered by a cosmic benevolent force who would withhold his powers if he did anything that wasn't heroic (there was some wiggle-room for vigilanteism).
especially a player who gets his jollies from rubbing your nose in how OMFG!AW3Z0M3!!!1!1! his character is.
That was almost a juice + laughter + keyboard moment then. Good for the laptop I made my reflex save. Bad for the floor.
Peace,
tfad
Baaahhhh! Superman's a pansy. All you need is a chunk of Kryptonite and he's toast. Granted, perhaps kryptonite is supposedly rare, but judging from the number of times it's been whipped out in the DC universe over the span of his career you could probably bend over, pick up a rock, and have even odds it's kryptonite.
Also, magic is a big sore spot for big blue. For all the bullets and axe blades his solid steel skin can deflect, a couple of magic missiles in his face will make him run back home to Smallville.
Finally, even though it's a small distinction, invulnerable does not necessarily mean invincible. It just means he's really, really, really, really, really tough. But there have been guys just as tough in the past, and I'm sure there will be ones just as tough in the future, ready to throw down with the 'strongest' man in the universe.
From a RPG standpoint, let the uber-character have his fun, thwarting evil effortlessly at every turn. It'll make it that much sweeter when his one weakness (or equal in power) shows up to cripple him. >:D
|
mmm well the reason of this threaf is how to deal with invulnerable characters, Superman is only used as a reference, because lets deal with it... he is the best example... (yes i agree he is a pansy)
i believe most of the narrative resources have been used for Superman
but lets talk about a 15 level monk (used as an example, but i remember oncea friend of mine played with a monk with more than 30 AC... hewasnight impossible to hit) with enough feets and AC to make himself almost untouchable... how you challenge him?
lets remember the idea of the game is NOT to defeat the monk, he is the player, not the End villian,the question is.. if giving and the aprty the same risk, they might be killed or defeated while the monk keeps going. How do you challenge him without having to kill the rest of the party (whatever you send or use to try to kill superman is quite possible would be able to kill every other superhero)
most ideas have been putby Dogbert, butlest remember not all of superman villains were physical... there is also the mental.
in this example the monk has a lot of good saves... but if confrotned with a mental challengue he still has to solve... lets just remember... the one doing it is the player, so ifthe monk otr wizard is a genious then he needs some help of the dice, at least after getting some clues or information.
the problem of using mental techniques against physical characters is the possibility that the player don't enjoy it or gets bored or fristratedafter a few unsuccsesful tries. superman was more than once confronted by Mr. (weird name) and needed to trick him in saying his name backwards.
greographycal problem ok our mighty heroe can defeat anything you sent to him... but if the evil cult is preparing itself to open a doorto the abyss, not even oour hero might be able to achieve succsess... so he needs to stop them... the problem is... 'where the hell are they?'
either the hero doesn't know where is his enemy or he is confronted by geographycal problems... a long river, a tall mountain, a swam... an ocean...
time is the factor success doesn't always depends on might... sometimes you need to do the right thing... on time...
distract him... slow him... that is what you need... he is happy fighting... its ok... the world doesn't stops for him... and either he rushes or whatever is going to happen would happen (they will sacrifice the virgin to the evil god, the doors of abyss would open... or he misses his ship to the otehr side of the world)
i admit... yesterday i did this to a character... it was a duel and her friend was baddly hurt... the next shot might kill him, there was a distraction in the background that let the 2nd shot nail him... and the character took to much time in deciding what to do... so the next shot left him dying in the ground... fortunately she was fast enough to save her friend's life... and now she pretty much hates the other guy in the duel.
Hostage Situations: This may require applying some, well, common sense on the part of the GM to make a judgement call and allow a villain who is hiding behind a human shield with a dagger to his/her neck being able to Ready a Coup de Grace if Superman tries anything funny. Still, he can Ready his finger on the detonator to a bombed building without the need of rules adjustments (I pulled that one on the superhero game I'm running... your choice good guy, me or the people?).
not that Crossfire is invisible or invulnerable or nothing of that sort... but can i say HOW MUCH I HATED WHEN IT HAPPENED!!!
*mumble grumble* lol certiantly it felt as if you had nerfed 'precognition' and 'read minds'... unfortunately Alternity rules are like that :P
As a writer, you're free to force Superman to nobble himself, with inefficient concepts as 'love' and 'honour', but you can't force a player to do so, especially a player who gets his jollies from rubbing your nose in how OMFG!AW3Z0M3!!!1!1! his character is.
Oh but that's the beauty of it, everyone cares for something, and those players who don't care for love or honor sure as hell care for their phat lewtz and self-convenience.
Your arrogant player let the hostage die? Ok, but what if the hostage was a VIP? Perhaps the daughter of someone most influential who will now channel all his wrath and resources towards the PC party? Sure, perhaps the powers of this man alone won't be able to tackle your player down but, what about the rest of the PC party? As this player's notoriety grows, so will their enemies. Are the other PCs as invincible as he is, or should they start fearing for their lives? Won't they resent having their characters die because of this player not fearing going up against the world?
This player may not care of becoming persona non grata wherever he goes, but the rest of the party might, as this will deny them of services they might need when in a tight spot as well as rewards they might be able to earn otherwise; they'll get tired of seeing their loot income reduced, their gold coins molten to slag by vengeful spellcasters, their mere basic equipment being gradually reduced as merchants will refuse to sell to them; how many ranks in Survival do they have? Are they ready to start sleeping outdoors every night and hunt their own food? (unless they resort to stealing, thus the downward spiral truly begining for everyone).
As the sh1t starts rising your players themselves may start seeing this player as a liability rather than an asset. Is the rest of the PC party ready to become the villains of your story, or will they rather turn on him or leave him to his luck?
It's all about cause and effect.
not that Crossfire is invisible or invulnerable or nothing of that sort... but can i say HOW MUCH I HATED WHEN IT HAPPENED!!!
*mumble grumble* lol certiantly it felt as if you had nerfed 'precognition' and 'read minds'... unfortunately Alternity rules are like that :P
lol sorry, I forget about Precog checks sometimes, that's all I can say in my defense (Mind Reading not so much though as pressing a button when scared is more of a reflex, not something he thinks consciously, plus you hadn't bought the required rank benefit back then, remember? =P)
Great thread everyone - awesome!
Also, magic is a big sore spot for big blue. For all the bullets and axe blades his solid steel skin can deflect, a couple of magic missiles in his face will make him run back home to Smallville.
This got me thinking, like everyone else, I tend to forget Supe's weakness against magic. There was a great episode of the old 70s (?) Spiderman cartoon when a wizard comes to town. Both Spiderman and the Goblin read his spell book and have a magic battle. Awesome! If magic works more like that in the DC universe, kinda like every hero is is automatically a gestalt character with the second class being wizard but with no spell books or free spells each level, then superman could be more screwed than any of us realize.
Plus that's the only chance Spiderman has of victory in that fight.
Peace,
tfad
Based on one of the more recent Superman/Batman storylines, you would think that after Krypton exploded every bit of the planet landed on Earth. DC's premier heroes were finding the stuff everywhere and destroying it. With all that they collected, it's a wonder that Supes could stand up straight, let alone use any of his abilities that are far beyond those of mortal man.
mmm well the reason of this threaf is how to deal with invulnerable characters, Superman is only used as a reference, because lets deal with it... he is the best example... (yes i agree he is a pansy)
i believe most of the narrative resources have been used for Superman
but lets talk about a 15 level monk (used as an example, but i remember oncea friend of mine played with a monk with more than 30 AC... hewasnight impossible to hit) with enough feets and AC to make himself almost untouchable... how you challenge him?
Honestly, with such AC at level 15, and being a monk, the main problem is to somehow make such ridiculously weak character survive. Read what CR 15 monsters actually do. To seriously rely on AC for being untouchable you need 29 at level 5 and 51 at 10, most or nearly all of that touch (examples from actual play, different characters).
Returning to the main question, DnD is eminently suited to constantly challenging stronger characters with even stronger enemies. If they run out of challenges in their home world, there are planes and whatever. If they wish, they can become rulers of their own countries and this burden proves ample opportunities for stories (for example, a party that won any of Pathfinder APs can take over Varisia with no effort, by simply killing everyone who disagrees), but for most players this is not as interesting as adventuring.
Oh but that's the beauty of it, everyone cares for something, and those players who don't care for love or honor sure as hell care for their phat lewtz and self-convenience.Your arrogant player let the hostage die? Ok, but what if the hostage was a VIP? Perhaps the daughter of someone most influential who will now channel all his wrath and resources towards the PC party?
The party kills him and takes his stuff. Problem solved. Any, any situation along the lines of "some Lex Luthor wannabe uses his resources against individuals with PC-level killpower and informancy" is entirely dependend on their level or moral restraint. If they are violent sociopaths and have none, they'll simply fry him.
This player may not care of becoming persona non grata wherever he goes, but the rest of the party might, as this will deny them of services they might need when in a tight spot as well as rewards they might be able to earn otherwise;
Sorry, but how brave, exactly, are people who deny them services or rewards? Remember, we're not talking about conscience-burdened superheroes. Denying something to types that made careers out of slaughter for fun and profit is not a very smart idea. They can just kill you and take your stuff. You want to piss them off? Really?
Fact of the matter, nobody is the biggest or baddest in the entire multiverse. Veteran Drow houses, vampire lords, Bloodwar veteran demon or devil squads, efreet nobles and their wish augmented stomp squads, and any number of other elves, dwarves, halflings, and humans can all be set up to be adequate or undefeatable conflicts for any "invincible" character who annoys the wrong people. If there is not someone more powerful than the PCs, then the GM is doing it wrong. Plus, the information gap, or lack thereof, must go both ways. A dragon with a crystal ball, or smart spell selection, isn't going to sit around and wait for somebody to come stab or punch him or her to death. Heck, a well placed alarm spell might be enough.
Besides, GMs shouldn't have to resort to deus ex machina plot devices (oh look, kryptonite!), but sometimes, you have to do what you need to. A PC could end up annoying a god, and then see where that gets them.
|
|
lol sorry, I forget about Precog checks sometimes, that's all I can say in my defense (Mind Reading not so much though as pressing a button when scared is more of a reflex, not something he thinks consciously, plus you hadn't bought the required rank benefit back then, remember? =P)
meh :P
but i agree in the earlier note
when a character is a liability more than an asset is when other characters abandon them, deliverthem to justice or just backstab them while sleeping.
|
|
Honestly, with such AC at level 15, and being a monk, the main problem is to somehow make such ridiculously weak character survive. Read what CR 15 monsters actually do. To seriously rely on AC for being untouchable you need 29 at level 5 and 51 at 10, most or nearly all of that touch (examples from actual play, different characters).
my mistake bad reference
that AC was when the guy was 7th level... i don't want to see what happened in level 15still it was just an example :P
Returning to the main question, DnD is eminently suited to constantly challenging stronger characters with even stronger enemies. If they run out of challenges in their home world, there are planes and whatever. If they wish, they can become rulers of their own countries and this burden proves ample opportunities for stories (for example, a party that won any of Pathfinder APs can take over Varisia with no effort, by simply killing everyone who disagrees), but for most players this is not as interesting as adventuring.
FatR
simply going to kill the next bigger monsters is not fun either
Oh but that's the beauty of it, everyone cares for something, and those players who don't care for love or honor sure as hell care for their phat lewtz and self-convenience.Your arrogant player let the hostage die? Ok, but what if the hostage was a VIP? Perhaps the daughter of someone most influential who will now channel all his wrath and resources towards the PC party?
The party kills him and takes his stuff. Problem solved. Any, any situation along the lines of "some Lex Luthor wannabe uses his resources against individuals with PC-level killpower and informancy" is entirely dependend on their level or moral restraint. If they are violent sociopaths and have none, they'll simply fry him.
This player may not care of becoming persona non grata wherever he goes, but the rest of the party might, as this will deny them of services they might need when in a tight spot as well as rewards they might be able to earn otherwise;Sorry, but how brave, exactly, are people who deny them services or rewards? Remember, we're not talking about conscience-burdened superheroes. Denying something to types that made careers out of slaughter for fun and profit is not a very smart idea. They can just kill you and take your stuff. You want to piss them off? Really?
then you spiral the problem
how long before the 'local' or not so local authorities decide to dispatch an army after them?yes they will dozens... how about hundreds?
simply the stakes are agains 4 individuals versus a mob or an army
they will be put down like dogs, their bdoes shown to everyone
and if other adventures help in the killing they become the new heroes...
or
adventurers will be look down and frown because now all the people know in what such monster can they become
FatR... there is always bigger fish... a group of hyenas can kill a lion... a group of wolves can kill a bear... its just timing and good planing.
FatR
simply going to kill the next bigger monsters is not fun either
Speak for yourself. As far as I know, Paizo APs (for example), buildtabout exactly this idea, are quite popular. Well, I'm all for high-level parties settling down and carving empires for themselves, but that's not for everyone's tastes.
yes they will dozens... how about hundreds?
simply the stakes are agains 4 individuals versus a mob or an army
they will be put down like dogs, their bdoes shown to everyone
Millions aren't a problem after a certain point. To a 11th-level party armies of 1st-3rd level grunts, no matter the numbers, barely qualify as environmental hazards. They aren't even worthy of being considered enemies. Furthermore, an idea that people who totally depend on PCs for their very survival, as is the case in most adventures, can pose a credible threat to them is ridiculous.
As far as I know, Paizo APs (for example), buildtabout exactly this idea, are quite popular. Well, I'm all for high-level parties settling down and carving empires for themselves, but that's not for everyone's tastes.
Wouldn't know, we still haven't even finished Burnt Offerings yet, let alone other APs. But then let's put canned adventures aside for a moment and contemplate all that can happen if your players manage to actually grow into a "global threat", and Golarion's armies rise to wage war on them:
When your oponents are legion the '1 in 20' chance for a critical becomes a statistic truth so your players can expect at least five to six criticals each from an army... which wouldn't be that much unless we're talking about northern barbarians with Great Axes, case in which we're talking of up to 40~ damage per crit. Likewise, most armies have at least one spellcaster in their payroll, 5 lvl 1 spellcasters can easily True Strike you to death if they're operating catapults or similar siege engines (I know from experience, that's how I put down an adult red dragon once), and if they're lvl 3 they can just as easily keep the party's spellcaster Silenced/Darkened long enough to be put down.
While a sigle arrow can be dodged or shrugged, a hail of arrows becomes a "Reflex save for half damage" hazard... add flaming arrowheads to each arrow.
Spells per day run out. Wands and staves run out of charges. Eventually you'll have to pull back, but your enemies will chase you to the end of the world, giving you little to no rest to heal, so each battle you'll have less HPs and spells. High Stealth scores and Invisibility are meaningless to scent-tracking dogs. Messengers will be send to foreign lands to warn the world about you, garnering even bigger armies against you. A price will be put on all of your PCs heads, motivating a whole new generation of adventurers and glory hounds. Likewise, let's not forget about the iconics, which in the absence of PC heroes, become the story's good guys, and also have the blessing of always being the right level for the adventure in turn.
Does it still sound as easy to challenge the world now? And I haven't even gotten to the gods' champions yet, let alone the gods themselves. There's no way your PCs can win against the world in a war of escalation. Just ask Tar-baphon, he tried.
*Tar-Baphon singing in the depths of his prison: ♪ I fought the law and the, law won! I fought the law and the, law won...
People seem to be having trouble with the concept of invulnerable. If someone is truly invulnerable, then it doesn't matter if you have an army of a billion tarrasque Jedi going after him. They fail to scratch him. Next?
If he's vulnerable to sufficient escalation, then he isn't actually invulnerable, and never was, so you never had the problem of trying to deal with an invulnerable character.
If he's vulnerable to sufficient escalation, then he isn't actually invulnerable, and never was, so you never had the problem of trying to deal with an invulnerable character.
Certainly you got the point that there's no such thing as "invincible", but then my actual point was that I see little purpose in actively opposing a character as if being tough as nails was a crime. I mean, wasn't the idea from the start that the PCs finished the adventure and rescued the princess? Or was the purpose of your adventure that none of your characters came out of it alive? (The Dungeons of Despair nonwithstanding).
The only difference between regular characters and "invincible" characters if the kind of aproach you'll have to take as a GM in order to provide a fun challenge.
Okay, you don't send Massive Force directly at Tough Player Character to challenge him, you use NPC Lex Luthor instead. But why can't he simply kill Lex Luthor? Because then he'll have to face Massive Force as a consequence!
All you're doing is threatening Tough PC with Massive Force. You've put a nice, polite Luthor mask on it, sure, but your basic underlying dynamic is still based on having a physically tough adversary that can physically threaten the PC.
Okay, you don't send Massive Force directly at Tough Player Character to challenge him, you use NPC Lex Luthor instead. But why can't he simply kill Lex Luthor? Because then he'll have to face Massive Force as a consequence!
Yes and no.
No I'm not sending Massive Force, but Massive Force is inherently behind Lex Luthor, as once all is said and done, everything civilization was built for boils down to one thing: survival.
The original purpose of a king's army was never to protect his people from outsiders, but to protect the king from his people. You mess with Wilson Fisk and he'll do what any other man of power would: use the system against you (and if push comes to shove, the country's armed forces are part of that system). The system works for Lex Luthor and people like him, and whenever he or his own is threatened, they unite if for no other reason that, if a force is enough to threaten Luthor, then any of them migth be next... survival.
...then again, that wasn't the point of the message. ;_;
Heroes unlimited Reply:
Invulnerable, the major power, isn't actually invulnerable.
Really high levels of strength, Direct damage magic or direct damage psionics, suffocation, injested or absorbed poisons, particle beams and the half dozen or so superpowers that harm invulnerable characters all contribute to a vast, yet instance-specific, vista that can injure the invulnerable character. It's not hard to challenge such a guy, it's just his challengers are almost always exceptional. In addition, when transfrred to the sister setting of Rifts, all mega damage scale weapons and abilities harm the invulnerable character.
Superman Reply:
He's not invulnerable. he is proportionately as damage resistant as he is strong. He can harm himself, as can any other kryptonian, as can any other super scale villain.
His vulnerabilities (IE anyhting that specifically weakens him apart from simply amping up the power)
* Kryptonite: sadly, overused. I find it hard to believe that the exploding remnants of his homeworld travelled fast enough to reach earth so that they arrived within 30 years of his faster than light birth rocket. And the sheer amount used is unbelieveable. Kryptonite for superman is both a weakening agent as well as a debilitative poison. Notably, kryptonite from alternate earths do not affect him.
* magic: he is treated as a normal man,(with exceptional willpower) wehn exposed to magic That said, he is more magically resistant to magic than say, your average fireman, due to his experiences and aforementioned willpower.
* Overwhelming force: as stated above, anyone stronger than superman can hurt him. He shaves using his own heat ray vision. he does recover very fast though.
* Lack of yellow sun: writers disagree with the rate at which the big blue cheese loses his strength, but all in all, prolonged lack of sunlight scales his powers down considerably.
* red sunlight: Physics be damned on this one. red sunlight actually reduces his yellow solar reserves rapidly. a lot of high tech foes have simply used red solar rifles on him, that not only hurt him, but make him weaker as well.
so, ther is enough to challenge supes in the physical department. heck, it's the reason lex gets by. Drop an extraterrestrial menace on him and he's pretty much boned without help.
Batts
Wouldn't know, we still haven't even finished Burnt Offerings yet, let alone other APs. But then let's put canned adventures aside for a moment and contemplate all that can happen if your players manage to actually grow into a "global threat", and Golarion's armies rise to wage war on them:
When your oponents are legion the '1 in 20' chance for a critical becomes a statistic truth so your players can expect at least five to six criticals each from an army...
Except, who the hell gives grunts these chances, except for complete morons? First, PC can easily have multiple 50% miss chances (greater invisibilty + blink, for example). Second, with their mobility advantage they don't provide LoS or LoE to many grunts at once. Third, they're literally one spell away from high-DR bodyguards that can go through grunts like a tank through haystack. Fourth, this legion has no way to catch up with them when they don't want to, unless they were supremely overconfident and no way to counter any of their tricks (that's why it is a moving environmental hazard, rather than actual enemy).
That's very basic stuff, by the way. "Hit-while-your-buffs-are-on-and-run-to-rest-if-in-any-danger" is not exactly rocket science. As is taking out commanders, before mopping up grunts at your leisure. It is what adventurers do.which wouldn't be that much unless we're talking about northern barbarians with Great Axes, case in which we're talking of up to 40~ damage per crit.
Those PCs who don't have greater fortification, are flying. And see above.
Likewise, most armies have at least one spellcaster in their payroll, 5 lvl 1 spellcasters can easily True Strike you to death if they're operating catapults or similar siege engines
Wrong. See above. Stop assuming that enemies can notice PCs before PCs start taking out their targets of choice, because that's not true.
(I know from experience, that's how I put down an adult red dragon once),
Adult red dragons have freaking 3rd level spells and are highly intelligent. They can approach invisible and in mirror image, then strafe you - again, absolute basics of their work. Your DM was obviously pampering you.
and if they're lvl 3 they can just as easily keep the party's spellcaster Silenced/Darkened long enough to be put down.
They're either too busy being dead, or flying spellcaster laughs at them, thanks to Globe of Invulnerability or simply the fact, that he doesn't need anything more than wands to blast some mooks.
While a sigle arrow can be dodged or shrugged, a hail of arrows becomes a "Reflex save for half damage" hazard... add flaming arrowheads to each arrow.
Wrong. First, this is you making rules up. Your houserules are irrelevant. Second, see above.
Spells per day run out. Wands and staves run out of charges. Eventually you'll have to pull back, but your enemies will chase you to the end of the world, giving you little to no rest to heal, so each battle you'll have less HPs and spells.
So completely wrong. By 13th level, PCs can pick between resting on other plane of existence, in their personal pocket dimension or in their hideout that is literally on the end of the world and is accessible only by teleportation. I prefer pocket dimensions.
High Stealth scores and Invisibility are meaningless to scent-tracking dogs.
Who the heck cares? We're flying or teleporting here. And that's assuming that whatever remains of army after the first attack can track PCs as a whole, the small tracking party just dies.
Messengers will be send to foreign lands to warn the world about you, garnering even bigger armies against you.
More fun.
A price will be put on all of your PCs heads, motivating a whole new generation of adventurers and glory hounds.
Fighting people who want their heads is an integral part of PCs profession anyway. Who cares?
Likewise, let's not forget about the iconics, which in the absence of PC heroes, become the story's good become the story's good guys, and also have the blessing of always being the right level for the adventure in turn.
I seriously don't know whether to laugh or cry after reading such ludicrous thing. Who the hell are "iconics"? They're simple a bunch of poory-written statistics at the back of the books. They don't even exist in the game world.
Does it still sound as easy to challenge the world now?
Yep.
And I haven't even gotten to the gods' champions yet, let alone the gods themselves.
First, PCs wery well can be gods' champions, for a god of their choice. Second, gods (speaking of Golarion) didn't do s&+# to stop such atrocious beings as Kazavon or Karzoug, or anyone else, for that matter. Looks like they aren't going to care about a literally world-shattering cataclysm. But PCs being selfish (bastards)? Nooooo, they cannot allow that.
There's no way your PCs can win against the world in a war of escalation.
Why? If you forgot, a war of escalation is a very essence of the adventurer's life. You propose, that it suddenly becomes unwinnable, if they wage it for selfish purposes. Why, again? If you don't like evil or mercenary PCs, just say so, before the campaign starts, instead of making up BS excuses for screwing them in-game. I repeat: the very idea, that people, wholly dependent on PCs because of their inability to oppose the campaign's villains suddenly can successfully oppose people, who ganked said villains, is nothing short of patently ridiculous. As is singling PCs out for punishment, when the world is half-overrun by thriving villains. And the idea that an army of low-level grunts can threaten high-level adventurers is no less ridiculous. Even if, as you obviously assume, these grunts are absolute fanatics, all ready and willing to face a certain death (hint: most people aren't).
Yes and no.
No I'm not sending Massive Force, but Massive Force is inherently behind Lex Luthor, as once all is said and done, everything civilization was built for boils down to one thing: survival.
Luthor doesn't have Massive Force (in most of his incarnations I'm aware of). The main thing that keeps Superman from tearing Luthor a new one, is Superman's moral codex. Same is generally true for high-level DnD parties (whatever "high-level" is in a particular setting). If they treat normal denizens well, that's because they're nice guys, not because they feel remotely threatened by consequences of misbehavior.
You propose, that it suddenly becomes unwinnable, if they wage it for selfish purposes.
Again no, I propose that (regardless of good or evil intentions) you can't wage war on the world and win, period. Just as you can't expect to retrieve Ravenloft's Land of Mists from the clutch of the Dark Powers. You rely too much on class features and numbers crunching, there are plenty of situations not covered by the rules and that's where the best laid plan of mice and men fall apart, I've seen it happen plenty of times; like the hail of arrows thing... not covered by the book, so unless Jacobs replies to this thread to tell me otherwise, I'll make a judgement call based on common sense and make it a hazard with a Reflex save for half damage (unless you're The Flash and can somehow outrun a hail of arrows capable of darkening the sky). In addition, those kind of PCs usually have juvenile kiddies behind the wheel, people that wouldn't know teamwork or strategy if it bit them in the rear; plus, it's very likely those kiddies started the game with said disruptive profile already, so I can only question how such band of sociopaths lived long enough to amass the power we keep talking about, in any A.P that took place in a city they'd have been put behind bars or sentenced to the gallows upon their first display of asshattery, back when they were still lvl 1.
But anyway, I give up, now we're just argueing for arguement's sake. I agree to disagree.
Again no, I propose that (regardless of good or evil intentions) you can't wage war on the world and win, period.
You can, period. You see - I too can say thing categorically.
You rely too much on class features and numbers crunching,
You rely on nothing whasoever, except your arbitrary assumptions about the game.
there are plenty of situations not covered by the rules
This situation is. Because, you know, that's what the game is about. The only divergence from the default assumption is your typical target list.
and that's where the best laid plan of mice and men fall apart, I've seen it happen plenty of times; like the hail of arrows thing... not covered by the book, so unless Jacobs replies to this thread to tell me otherwise, I'll make a judgement call based on common sense and make it a hazard with a Reflex save for half damage (unless you're The Flash and can somehow outrun a hail of arrows capable of darkening the sky).
You're the Iron Man. Your mighty armor cannot be cracked open by dragon fangs, giant clubs just bounce harmlessly off your animated shield and most precise assassins in the world cannot get past your heavy fortification. Clearly DM should make a judgement call based on common sense and just say that you cannot possibly be damaged by pathetic pointy sticks. (Note, that this is your logic, not mine.) Also, a hail of arrows capable of darkening the sky is something that you can only see in an action movies... where, accidentally, it is less than useful against heroes, most of the time.
In addition, those kind of PCs usually have juvenile kiddies behind the wheel, people that wouldn't know teamwork or strategy if it bit them in the rear; plus, it's very likely those kiddies started the game with said disruptive profile already, so I can only question how such band of sociopaths lived long enough to amass the power we keep talking about, in any A.P that took place in a city they'd have been put behind bars or sentenced to the gallows upon their first display of asshattery, back when they were still lvl 1.
"People whose playstyle I don't like (or, as it seems, understand) are idiots! They should be punished by arbitrary DM dickery!" The same meaning, less obfuscating words.
|
|
Why? If you forgot, a war of escalation is a very essence of the adventurer's life. You propose, that it suddenly becomes unwinnable, if they wage it for selfish purposes. Why, again? If you don't like evil or mercenary PCs, just say so, before the campaign starts, instead of making up BS excuses for screwing them in-game. I repeat: the very idea, that people, wholly dependent on PCs because of their inability to oppose the campaign's villains suddenly can successfully oppose people, who ganked said villains, is nothing short of patently ridiculous. As is singling PCs out for punishment, when the world is half-overrun by thriving villains. And the idea that an army of low-level grunts can threaten high-level adventurers is no less ridiculous. Even if, as you obviously assume, these grunts are absolute fanatics, all ready and willing to face a certain death (hint: most people aren't).
exactly this is why ithink high level adventures are boring, difficult to play and lots of people complain about them
i saw in this answer you decided to answer everything... except the fact that Tar-Baphon... The Lich of Golarion, who killed one demigod... was brought down by a human, ok using an Artifact...
but you are forgetting... armies also have champions... Tar-Baphons had lots of armies and monsters at his service. still he went down. PCs being human or living creatures would fall easier...
|
|
ohh didn't saw rulelawyers with crunch numbers killed the thread
and... FatR... there are rules for massive combat... they have been around since 2nd Ed... and returned in 3.x
that you don't know more rules than the basic is not your fault :P but it clearly shows you disregard common sense
in Massive Combat rules PCs can make a difference but can also bebrought down
and no... a hail of arrows that darken the sky arenot things of action movies... they were things of history
the phrase "then we will fight in the dark" exist long before the 300 movie.
last post here