Maybe at the lowest levels yes but with a few feats even then no.
As the characters level up the wizard is stuck at 1 attack per round and rangers get multi attack at 2nd level and iterative attacks at 6th level. Composite bows, magic bows... by 6th level the gap between the archer and the ranged touch attack is huge.
In general ranged touch spells don't provoke AoO's for being a ranged attack. It might provoke for casting a spell in a threatened area, but a ranged touch attack spell is not like firing a bow, it's part of casting a spell.
--Vrocknrolla!
Actually my understanding of this was exactly backwards...
The supernatural ability doesn't provoke, but all ranged attacks do.
If you have a supernatural ability to say summon cows, you could summon cows all day while threatened but not provoke becuase it's supernatural as opposed to casting a spell. But if you take a bow or other ranged attack you provoke an AoO.
So....
Why doesn't casting a ranged spell provoke 2 AoOs? Becuase the rules state that any action can only provoke one AoO from any given opponent. So while you are doing two things that provoke, they are still the same action so only provoke one attack.
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In general ranged touch spells don't provoke AoO's for being a ranged attack. It might provoke for casting a spell in a threatened area, but a ranged touch attack spell is not like firing a bow, it's part of casting a spell.
--Vrocknrolla!
Actually my understanding of this was exactly backwards...
The supernatural ability doesn't provoke, but all ranged attacks do.
If you have a supernatural ability to say summon cows, you could summon cows all day while threatened but not provoke becuase it's supernatural as opposed to casting a spell. But if you take a bow or other ranged attack you provoke an AoO.
So....
Why doesn't casting a ranged spell provoke 2 AoOs? Becuase the rules state that any action can only provoke one AoO from any given opponent. So while you are doing two things that provoke, they are still the same action so only provoke one attack.
That's where you'd be wrong. Making an attack (ranged) and casting a spell are two seperate standard actions, both of which provoke AoO's. However if the caster were to successfully cast defensively he could get a ranged touch attack like Ray of Enfeeblement off without AoO.
Proof: 3.5 srd (Combat>Actions in Combat>Cast a Spell>Touch attacks)
Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
The exact wording is also in the PFRPG on pg 138, bottom left paragraph. Touch spells whether melee or ranged do not provoke, however the casting of the spell itself does.
And you can take more than one Attack of Opportunity against an opponent, provided you have the Combat Reflexes feat. You can only take one AoO however per action that provokes. So you can attack a creature that moves through or out of your threatened area and if said creature say, drinks a potion in front of you, that allows you to whack them as well.
pg 134 PFRPG
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity:
If you have the Combat Ref lexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modif ier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given
opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for
that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
--Vrocknrolla!
::sigh::
Way to jump on that and miss everything I was saying.
I said that the if ranged touch attack is part of the spell action then it still only provokes 1 AoO becuase it is still all one action. The attack is part of the spell.
Beyond that here is my point:
Attack(ranged) provokes an attack of opportunity. It doesn't matter what type of ranged attack. If you make a ranged attack while threatened by someone else you provoke an attack of opportunity. Ranged Touch Attacks are called Ranged Attacks becuase they are performed at Ranged and are attacks therefore provoking attacks of opportunity.
It doesn't matter if you cast a spell defensively or not in this case: You are making a ranged attack.
In the case of supernatural abilities the fact that the it is supernatural means that using it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity like a spell does. however if the supernatural ability is a ranged attack (of any flavor) the ranged attack provokes.
Examples:
I cast a scorching ray spell while threatened by a fighter. The casting of the spell provokes an AoO. The fact that this is a ranged attack also provokes an AoO. However I am only performing one standard action so even if the fighter had combat reflexes he would only get one AoO on me from this action even though two parts of my (single) action are provoking. If I cast scorching ray defensively casting the spell wouldn't provoke an AoO but the ranged attack for the spell still would becuase it's a ranged attack. All Ranged attacks provoke AoOs.
IF a sorcerer was to use a supernatural Ranged Touch Attack while threatened by a fighter then the fact the sorcerer used a supernatural power is of no concequence, however the sorcerer is still making a ranged attack which provokes an AoO.
If a wizard where to cast vampiric touch on a fighter without casting defensively then the casting of the spell provokes an AoO however the touch attack doesn't (it's a melee attack and treated as if the wizard was armed). If the same wizard had cast defensively then the spell wouldn't provoke and the attack wouldn't provoke so there would be no AoO.
If a Lantern Archon was to use its light ray while threatened it would still provoke an AoO even though the light ray is an Extraordinary ability becuase it is a Ranged Attack. All ranged attacks provoke AoOs.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Ah, this old argument. Attacking with a ranged weapon provokes. Making a ranged attack without a weapon does not. Fairly easily resolved. Up to you if a ranged natural weapon provokes, but a spell or spell-like only provokes in the casting, as it is not a weapon. Remember, spells/spell-likes do not use the attack action.
So... let me see if I get this right:
Becuase they are listed as two seperate actions the fact that it says Ranged Attacks provoke AoO's doesn't matter to spell chuckers becuase the casting of the spell takes over the ranged attack?
I think I like it better my way ;p helps the melees a little more at least. Changes a lot of the 'balance' equations too. I always though that it was an inclusion statement on that chart:
sort of like this:
Spell:
Cast defensively?
1. Yes (Possibly doesn't provoke AoO)
2. No (Provokes AoO)
Does the spell have a ranged attack?
1. Yes (provokes AoO)
2. No (possibly doesn't provoke AoO)
Does it involve Retrieving Stored Components?
1. Yes (provokes AoO)
2. No (possibly doesn't Provoke AoO)
Does it involve touching up to six Allies?
1. Yes (Provokes AoO)
2. No (doesn't provoke AoO)
After all why include the "Use Touch spell on up to 6 allies" in a seperate spot if the issues of the spell aren't being broke down to check for AoO's?
Also this makes Eschew Materials alot less useful.
Finally it explains why casting defensively is so powerful, I always though that just got you out of one part of the issue.
After all why should aiming a spell while casting it be easier than aiming a bow while doing nothing else?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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So... let me see if I get this right:
Becuase they are listed as two seperate actions the fact that it says Ranged Attacks provoke AoO's doesn't matter to spell chuckers becuase the casting of the spell takes over the ranged attack?
Yep. A ranged attack is with a weapon (ref. page 134 of the PFRPG Beta). Ranged attacks have range increments. Rays and ranged touch attacks do not. The action for a scorching ray is "Cast a spell", not "Attack (ranged". (ref. page 135 of the PAthfinder RPG)
As for why aiming a spell while casting it easier than aiming a bow? It isn't. But the aiming of the spell is a fairly minor part of it. Casting the spell is what provokes.
Why should casting a Melf's involve two AoOs, but casting a fireball involve only 1?
Ok that spin on things completely changes power paradigms. My understanding had always been that of a check list you had to clear in order to not provoke (see above).
I understand that I'm thread jacking a little here, sorry about that. One last question though:
Would running the AoO's my way help balance things more (in regards to the fighers vs spellcasters)? I can understand why aiming a scorching ray would provoke just like a bow would and a fireball wouldn't (with a fireball you hardly have to aim).
When I shared this with the rest of the group, they immediately balked. They believe it is way too powerful for a spell caster to have a 30ft d6 + change ray attack that doesn't provoke AOs. They even went so far as to say that it caused archers to be completely outclassed.
Not really. Archers have better ranges. Archers get to make lots of attacks. Archers get to use lots of cool class abilities and feats with their stuff.
It's not even close. Casters start with 1d6 (as a touch, I give you that), while archers will have something like 1d8+2, and it's not that unlikely that he gets to do that twice in a round. In the end, caster will still have that one attack, with 1d6 + 10. The fighter will have 5 or 6, for 1d8+16, likely more, and add some more weapon enhancers for good measure.
That means the caster will do 13 damage on average. Assuming that 3 of the figher's attacks hit, he'll do something like 60-70 - not counting crits.
Ok that spin on things completely changes power paradigms. My understanding had always been that of a check list you had to clear in order to not provoke (see above).
If it helps, I've seen a protracted argument on this subject on the Core Coliseum board at wizards.com. There were plenty of staunch defenders of each position, each proclaiming their side was as clear as day and that the other side was adding blasphemous House Rules to the Sacred SRD.
Ah....good times. :-)
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This is why I read and re-read the Combat chapters every couple month or so! The combat portion of the game is all about Actions. Knowing what actions are possible and the difference between them is fundamental to running D&D. As a DM who has run tables as large as 10 players I try to be as airtight on my rules and mechanics as possible. But even I find something new or interpret a rule differently when I run into a new wrinkle.
For example I thought that during a Timestop you could not target any creature with offensive spells at all (a change from 3.0 to 3.5) but found out that you could use spells that had durations longer that the timestop to say drop a solid fog on a foe and place several blade barriers running through them and when the Timestop ends all the effects hit at once. Cheap but legal...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Would running the AoO's my way help balance things more (in regards to the fighers vs spellcasters)? I can understand why aiming a scorching ray would provoke just like a bow would and a fireball wouldn't (with a fireball you hardly have to aim).
I would think you have to aim *better* to hit a grid intersection than a medium-sized creature with a 5x5 space...certainly it's easier to hit a large creature than a grid intersection. And check out what you need to do to get a fireball through a narrow opening, in the spell description.