I'd suggest not trying it.. and i'll say why.
The main difference between full melee and full caster, aside from ability scores, are feats.
If you go pure melee you'll be wanting to take alot of feats that take advantage of that. Feats to make you hit harder, more often, and all that good stuff.
If you go full caster you'll be taking feats that make you a better caster. Things to make your spells hit harder and more often and to penetrate spell resistance and the like.
While even with those scores you'll have good DC's I think the middle-high range you'll still get beat out. You have a good wisdom but the guy who put his highest into that plus his racial already beat you and it just gets worse if he takes feats, gets magical items,a nd puts his level bumps into it.
With those two in mind, personally, I'd still stick to the "melee or caster" advice and just be glad you have a high enough wisdom to give you plenty of bonus spells.
Just my .02.
-S
p.s. I'd still take natural spell ;p
With that stat array you could make a tasty inquisitor from the APG, a brutal fighter or ranger as well. With those you could make a Imp shield bash two weapon fighter get a bashing spiked shield and use a light weapon for 2d6 per bash as your primary weapon and the short sword or whatever as the 2nd weapon.
screw the sword FEAR my board
With that stat array, I would go either monk or paladin, but if you guys could use a little healing help, druid is pretty fun. Regardless of your choices, a dwarf isn't a bad choice, you can get 19 wisdom with the stat bump and use the same stat array as you have and an extra hp per level, and use the apg to get some fun racial abilities. If you plan on being a shifter, the movement rate won't be a problem, and if you want to do some melee, go ahead and try a level or two of barbarian for rage and movement when you aren't shifted and if you want, moment of clarity.
|
I agree with Selgard. A character is always better when it does something very well. Doing two things good is not the same thing.
That said, one class for whom doing two things good just has to be enough is Magus. You have the stat array to make a hard hitting SoB.
Oracle and Barbarian to run a Rage Prophet could be fun. I think its a fascinating PrC that I, sadly, will probably never have time to bring to life. You have the scores to put Str, Cha and Con nice and high perfect for that combo.
It actually sounds like your group needs a healer. So, Druid, Cleric or Oracle. An Oracle of healing with those stats and a tongues curse could be very very effective as both a healer and a general purpose combatant.
We have a character going for Rage Prophet in our gaming group. Totally cool character and pretty powerful, even at 4th level. I second the suggestion to go that route.
I say go for a druid caster/melee hybrid! You won't be excellent at either, but you'll be solidly decent at both- and that's hard to accomplish.
Placing the divide is difficult, but I feel you'd be very effective if you placed your two 17's into Strength & Wisdom and then boost your Wisdom with all your bumps & items. 17 (18 w/ a bump) strength will serve you really well once you start adding on size & enhancement bonuses. Spend two feats on Spell Focus: Conjuration & Augment summoning and then spend the rest becoming awesome at melee. Power attack, perhaps the improved grapple line, who knows? You can definitely have your cake and eat it too, so long as you don't mind smaller slices. :)
With that stat array you could make a tasty inquisitor from the APG, a brutal fighter or ranger as well. With those you could make a Imp shield bash two weapon fighter get a bashing spiked shield and use a light weapon for 2d6 per bash as your primary weapon and the short sword or whatever as the 2nd weapon.
screw the sword FEAR my board
I'd go inquisitor with stats like these. Go high strength so you can hit hard. You spells will be mostly self buffs and healing. So you don't need to worry about having a high casting stat for the DC. I did that with character that I rolled 17,16,15,15,13,12. Worked out very well.
I wouldn't be afraid of playing a well-rounded druid. You might not be god-like in any one area, but you'll never be stuck without any options either.
You can make yourself small enough to hide in the rogue's equipment, you'll be able blend into a crowd, you'll be able to fly, you'll be the fastest member of the party by far. You will be able to make five attacks when pouncing, and grapple as a free action by level 8 I think, oh... and be able to cast some awesome spells.
It's a fun class. Not the strongest maybe, but really, really fun.
My advice, go fighter.
fighters are usually made when you have weak stat rolls,
but check this out.
STR 17
Dex 17
con 16
int 13
wis 14
chr 12
make him elf
so you got a 19 dex.
No, you got an archer you think right?
buy light armor (high dex) so you can afford an elf curved blade
(go two hand fighter) and use the weapon fineese feat. you hit like crazy with a high damage, high crit probability weapon, and as a fighter with all the feats you get, it will only get nastier.
plus, you get quick access to the improved critical feat and other feats to ensure crits are more common and more deadly.
nasty fighter, big nasty sword. doesnt have to spend alot on armor.as an elf you will also get more int which will give u more skills and with the high wis you will cover up some of the fighters poor saves in the will department.
Option 2:
Barbarian.
STR 17
dex 16
con 17
int 12
Wis 14
chr 12
half orc
lots of str and con, lots of rage bashing.
not horrible mental stats
enough dex to swing two weapons.
Reminds me of the time I rolled 17, 17, 17, 15, 10, 9. (That was in AD&D. Made a half-elven fighter/specialty priest of Sune--the 17s got sent to Str, Wis, and Cha.)
On the one hand: Really? Play what you want. Play what makes you excited. Stats like that are going to make any character fun and effective to play, and I don't understand--read this as "I don't understand" and not "I think you are wrong"--why picking the "right class" is necessary.
All of the classes could be fun and very effective with a stat array like that. I'd actually love stats like that for a Fighter--imagine being able to qualify for Power Attack AND Combat Expertise AND TWF or whatever it was I wanted to do. (Not that I would acutally take those three feats--it's just that combat feat possibilities become endless when you have stats like that). And you could be the Fighter-tactican or Fighter-noble-charmer with stats like that. Rogues or Bards would be great with stats like that--put one of the high numbers into Str and/or Dex and they become both strong combatants as well as awesome skillmonkeys--they can do ANYTHING. And of course cases have been made for other classes. But really--what you have is a stat array that DOESN'T eliminate any options. Revel in that freedom.
Druid seems easy, but it doesn't matter, those stats are reduce for anything. I'm calling "blatant cheating" on those point levels coming from 4d6 rolled once.It does happen on 4d6 drop the lowest Thalin. I've done it, and stronger rolls. Some people just tend to have an innate 'luck' for dice. I can't completely explain it, but some people just tend to carry stronger probability than others, and sometimes normal dice rollers hit the jackpot as well.
We had a 4 year-old daughter of one of a group I was in for a long time. One game she rolled 4k3 for all of us no one had lower than a 14 and most of us had 2 18's.
Druid seems easy, but it doesn't matter, those stats are reduce for anything. I'm calling "blatant cheating" on those point levels coming from 4d6 rolled once.
All of our table's 4D6-drop-one dice rolls are witnessed by either the GM or players or both, and I kid you not:
11, 15, 14, 16, 15, 17 for my Sorcerer build
11, 15, 12, 16, 11, 13 for the Wizard cohort
I should have skipped gaming and gone to Atlantic City...
Druid seems easy, but it doesn't matter, those stats are reduce for anything. I'm calling "blatant cheating" on those point levels coming from 4d6 rolled once.
Really, how far above average are they?
Hmmm...?
Before accusing someone of cheating, you should have that number at your finger tips.
My question was more along the lines of, "I'm new to the system, I'm in this unfamiliar situation of actually having crazy good stats, here's what I'm thinking about doing... Thoughts / suggestions?"
The suggestions thus far have been very helpful. The options is opens for a melee character are vast and interesting. The Rage Prophet prc is absolutely awesome. I'm 99% sure I'm going to go with that. There are just so many crazy ways to build it, I'm having a blast exploring the options.
Another fun choice. Glad you are having a blast. That really is the point after all. :)
|
|
Depending on the source, the average for 4d6 is between 18 and 24 points; tending towards the higher. When you have 3 people all go not just over, but that far over, cheating happened. Now, he said there were multiple sets rolled, and maybe special rules (reroll 1s), so who knows. But yes, surfacewide I'm going to guess there is at least one, and probably more, cheats going on.
.
It will be nice to have high attributes. It really doesn't have a large impact on what class you should play. First, play something you will enjoy. Second, play something that will help your party.
you have a party made up of:
Summoner
Rogue
Archer
Inquisitor
Monk or Oracle
I would strongly recommend a full caster!
If I were making a character for this group, and the Monk/Oracle chooses Monk, then I would make a Witch. (Full arcane caster, with healing ability) If the Monk/Oracle chooses Oracle, I would make a Wizard.
If I didn't feel like making a full caster, I would make a bard. You have a lot of hits going on in this party, and a Bard makes every hit better.
If I didn't feel like making a full caster, I would make a bard. You have a lot of hits going on in this party, and a Bard makes every hit better.
This array could make a wicked Bard with Arcane Duelist from APG; could even do TWF to maximize Arcane Strike damage. Maybe a Shield-Basher.
I also think if the party member goes Oracle instead of Monk, you could make a wicked melee druid with a 2 level dip in Monk. You will still be a fair spellcaster, but you can pick up Imp Grapple and WIS to AC, plus something like Combat reflexes to perhaps go with a Step Up and Strike strategy.
Just a few wacky ideas.
How combat heavy is your GM and his campaign? With that stat array, you could afford to play something a bit wierder and still be effective.
Play one of the sub-par monster races (goblin/kobold) and have fun.
Or play something off the wall, like a high STR Wizard or high INT fighter...
With that Stat array, I'd go more for role playing possibilities instead of maximizing the stat uses. But that's me.
Depending on the source, the average for 4d6 is between 18 and 24 points; tending towards the higher. When you have 3 people all go not just over, but that far over, cheating happened. Now, he said there were multiple sets rolled, and maybe special rules (reroll 1s), so who knows. But yes, surfacewide I'm going to guess there is at least one, and probably more, cheats going on.
The average for 4d6 is between 18 and 24? You use numbers differently than I do. I don't have time right now, but check back in about 6 hours, and I'll run through a brief introduction to stats later on.
(N.B. You are saying that the average is in access of his highest roll. Ergo... he rolled lower than average in your calculation.)
He's talking about point buy totals for the entire stat-sheet.Depending on the source, the average for 4d6 is between 18 and 24 points; tending towards the higher. When you have 3 people all go not just over, but that far over, cheating happened. Now, he said there were multiple sets rolled, and maybe special rules (reroll 1s), so who knows. But yes, surfacewide I'm going to guess there is at least one, and probably more, cheats going on.The average for 4d6 is between 18 and 24? You use numbers differently than I do. I don't have time right now, but check back in about 6 hours, and I'll run through a brief introduction to stats later on.
(N.B. You are saying that the average is in access of his highest roll. Ergo... he rolled lower than average in your calculation.)
Ooooh, so he is answering an entirely... unrelated... question. Got it.
|
|
I believe (?) I answers entirely the right question, and while I am a math major, for the 18 - 24 I am relying on the math shown on other threads here. Point being that the statistical anomaly IS high enough to call probable (but not 100%) BS.
But to answer the question, ranged bard or witch or cleric... Your party has a metric ton of front line, they need support. You could also make a hell of a zen archer "switch hitter" with high Str/Wis.
I believe (?) I answers entirely the right question, and while I am a math major, for the 18 - 24 I am relying on the math shown on other threads here. Point being that the statistical anomaly IS high enough to call probable (but not 100%) BS.
But to answer the question, ranged bard or witch or cleric... Your party has a metric ton of front line, they need support. You could also make a hell of a zen archer "switch hitter" with high Str/Wis.
Let me refresh your memory oh math major (paraphrased for ease of reading)
You: You can't roll this high on 4d6 dropping 1. So you are cheating.
Me: What would you expect to get on 4d6 dropping 1?
You: Average point buys are 18-24
Me: That doesn't answer the question.
You: I'm a math major.
So... you've studied math, what is the average roll that you would expect on 4d6 if you drop the lowest die? How far off is his roll from that average?
(Of course, he never claimed to do that.)
I believe (?) I answers entirely the right question, and while I am a math major, for the 18 - 24 I am relying on the math shown on other threads here. Point being that the statistical anomaly IS high enough to call probable (but not 100%) BS.
But to answer the question, ranged bard or witch or cleric... Your party has a metric ton of front line, they need support. You could also make a hell of a zen archer "switch hitter" with high Str/Wis.
Let me refresh your memory oh math major (paraphrased for ease of reading)
You: You can't roll this high on 4d6 dropping 1. So you are cheating.
Me: What would you expect to get on 4d6 dropping 1?
You: Average point buys are 18-24
Me: That doesn't answer the question.
You: I'm a math major.So... you've studied math, what is the average roll that you would expect on 4d6 if you drop the lowest die? How far off is his roll from that average?
(Of course, he never claimed to do that.)
we dont allow 4d6 drop the lowest because it always produced stupid high game ruining stats.
we do 3d6 re roll 1s.we come out somewhere between 20 and 25 point buys, but we have more randomness rather than the same point builds ALL the time.
in my experience, the kid with a 4d6 drop the lowest has stats that that type of rolling gets. I have tow brothers that play and if they roll 4d6 they are going to get a character to look like that or better.
its because of them we dont allow it anymore and they always rolled in front of everyone.
When did this become an internets pissing contest?
(back on topic)
My vote: Hybrid melee/caster druid with a focus on grappling.
Having high rolls and not going Paladin in a group without a heavy fighter or a healer seems criminal to me, Rage Prophet is pretty good, but doesn't really hit its stride until about 12th level.
Some of the builds i would enjoy to 16th:
Melee Ranger 6 (Guide Variant, APG) Horizon Walker 10
Rogue 2 / Paladin 14
Ranger 3 (Sword and Shield) / Fighter 3 / Horizon Walker 3 (Fatigue Immune) / Stalwart Defender 7
Barbarian 2 / Oracle 4 (Lame or Sick, Battle) / Rage Prophet 10 (take the feat extra rage, and extra rage power: spirit totem lesser for extra melee fun)
Bard 8 (Arcane Duelist APG) / Arcane Archer 8
Lion Totem Druid using a lot of cat summons and pouncing melee & buffs
Cleric of Erastil 2 (Growth plant domain variant) / Fighter 14 Using Lunge + Whirlwind attack for 15 foot "room broom" techniques....
Geez I better stop before I pull out my notebook with 100 PC builds in it. Bottom line: the world is your oyster, have a good time.
|
I clocked in 3rd with a paltry 46 point buy [17, 17, 16, 14, 13, 12]. Yeah. The winner walked away with a 54 point buy, and 2nd had a 51 point buy.
Oddly enough, this array actually seems to make it HARDER to pick a class.
Boo-frakkin'-hoo. Poor you. I'm sure you're envying my 15 pt buy right now. >:(
|
|
The 18-24 is honestly based on chats, there are discussions on it. The reason there is any debate is trying to figure out the spikes... it's not as simple as finding the mean (which is just under 13) and using that for 6 stats (which would get you the 18). Instead, you have to account that a 16 is actually worth 10 points, not the 6 the level would indicate. Nobody has been able to pinpoint where this is, but there have been compelling arguments on the net this has been as high as 24.
Which is again thrown off if they start rolling multiple times (as he hinted he did) or does something special, like the commonly used "reroll 1s". So tough to say... we'd have to truly see his methodology before fully calling shenanigans, but I do note that die-rolled characters tend to be listed high... which is why I am so glad we point buy, even if it causes min-max.
But getting on subject > again front line and even range support is covered, so supportive casters would be ideal. Look at witch, druid, cleric... or if other guy goes Oracle, a Wizard or Bard would fill the ranks nicely (though Summoner steps on the bard's toes as a buffer a lot).
Whew! You Internet people are silly :).
|
|
Just because you're starting a flame war,look further... you'll find plenty of "answers" which do not agree (i just did a quick search myself. This "random" is calling you a cheater because there was mention of your 4d6 in the first post, and your defensive nature kinda makes me more suspect. But I was incorrect on the 4d6, the average is lower (12.24), which makes your initial statement even more suspect.
That is all; hopefully you got the info you needed. Sounds like you're balancing your stats with a sub-optimal character to try to make up for them, that's a good way to do it.
Just because you're starting a flame war,look further... you'll find plenty of "answers" which do not agree (i just did a quick search myself. This "random" is calling you a cheater because there was mention of your 4d6 in the first post, and your defensive nature kinda makes me more suspect. But I was incorrect on the 4d6, the average is lower (12.24), which makes your initial statement even more suspect.
That is all; hopefully you got the info you needed. Sounds like you're balancing your stats with a sub-optimal character to try to make up for them, that's a good way to do it.
Newsflash!!! He didn't start the flame war, you did. Calling someone a cheater = flaming.
Second Newsflash!!! He never said 4d6. He said 46. As in the number between 45 and 47. He said they rolled a number system that came up with higher expected values.In Pathfinder, the GM is allowed to change the rules in order to make it a better fit within his group. Unless you know what system was used to roll the dice, it is impossible to tell whether or not someone is cheating.
But let's play the game that he did roll 4d6... which he didn't. But since that is what you think he did, let's continue as if that were true:
I'm glad you found someone to give you the answer to what the expected average roll would be. Unfortunately, since you didn't do your own work, this next part will be harder to figure out.
So, not unexpectedly, a person who rolled those numbers on 4d6 would have done better than average. But before you go calling someone a cheater, we have to figure out whether the amount that they exceeded expectations was abnormal.
To do that, we need to look at the distribution. I'll let you get on that. Let us know when you are ready.
Newsflash!!! He didn't start the flame war, you did. Calling someone a cheater = flaming.
+1. Seriously, dude, that was blatant flaming.
---
On topic:
Just to throw out an off-the-wall alternative: Try a half-orc melee Witch on for size. I played one in a one-shot campaign and while I was hardly the top damage dealer in the group, I was able to contribute both in melee combat and with spell casting. You're not going to be as tough or as dangerous as a full BAB character, but with those stats you can certainly be reasonable in melee for the first 10 or so levels of your career without sacrificing any spell casting ability.
Also, Witches can get the healing spells, so you can cover that lightly-held niche.
If melee Witch doesn't float your boat, but you're still interested in a melee caster, try the Arcane Duelist Bard archetype. Again, it still can provide healing, and it's got better HD and BAB at the cost of a worse spell casting ability.
Newsflash!!! He didn't start the flame war, you did. Calling someone a cheater = flaming.+1. Seriously, dude, that was blatant flaming.
+2 Not only blatant, but hugely insulting.
---On topic:
Just to throw out an off-the-wall alternative: Try a half-orc melee Witch on for size. I played one in a one-shot campaign and while I was hardly the top damage dealer in the group, I was able to contribute both in melee combat and with spell casting. You're not going to be as tough or as dangerous as a full BAB character, but with those stats you can certainly be reasonable in melee for the first 10 or so levels of your career without sacrificing any spell casting ability.
Also, Witches can get the healing spells, so you can cover that lightly-held niche.
If melee Witch doesn't float your boat, but you're still interested in a melee caster, try the Arcane Duelist Bard archetype. Again, it still can provide healing, and it's got better HD and BAB at the cost of a worse spell casting ability.
That actually sounds like a very interesting one to play.
If you're looking for which classes would benefit most from such a good starting array, Paladin is probably leading the charts. Fairly MAD and with good abilities all around it will be fearsome.
However all I really suggest is play what you want. Any class can work with that array.