I'm finalising Burnt Offerings and I have serious doubts about the inclusion of the Malfeshnekor directly in the module. Really ¿Is this monster beatle by a four level party? His power and abillities are superiors to the PCs and the surprise attack of his invisibility is deadly.
Please forgive my poor english and thanks in advance.
I'm finalising Burnt Offerings and I have serious doubts about the inclusion of the Malfeshnekor directly in the module. Really ¿Is this monster beatle by a four level party? His power and abillities are superiors to the PCs and the surprise attack of his invisibility is deadly.Please forgive my poor english and thanks in advance.
I have found a decently armed group of pcs can run rampant over some of the nastiest beasts on a good day, but 1 or 2 bad rolls and the train crashes and ends in death. Yea, he is beatable but only with good tactics and luck, which is what makes it a memorable encounter. I just had a party of 3 1st level pcs kill an Otyugh without hardly taking any damage (and the Pathfinder channeling is a reason why, not to mention the inability for it to grapple thanks to needing to roll a 15 for its CMb since its CMB was less than the Half-orc Barbarian) But I digress and apologize for the threadjack. Back on topic, Yes he is killable. These message boards have stories of many groups killing him, but the obituaries is littered with just as many accounts of deaths at his hands and maybe even a TPK or two.
The "safest" way to kill Malfeshnekor is for the PCs to attack at range from outside the room. He can't leave the chamber and he has no ranged attacks, so this method is like shooting fish in a barrel.
It's very unlikely that a group of PCs will come up with this and be able to pull it off, particularly since they'll already have come into the room before they know he's there, and he should try to keep them from leaving.
Some groups have reported running this scene a bit differently, having Malfeshnekor try to charm one or more PCs and then persuade them to go fetch some item/artifact that will release him from the room.
I'd recommend taking a close look at your PCs' abilities and how they tend to handle things, then decide if they're likely to survive this. The less likely you think they are to survive, the more you may want to adjust things, if only to give more clues about what they're getting into, such as:
- Play up Nualia's intention to release the mysterious Malfeshnekor, as discovered in Tsuto's journal.
- Play up the creepy atmosphere of the room when they first open the door, to make the PCs hesitant to enter as a group.
<Cintra's Comments>
Wisdom.
Creative Director
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If the PCs have done every encounter and there's only 4 PCs in your group... they should actually be 5th level.
Even then, Malfeshnekor isn't intended to be someone that the PCS have to kill or defeat before moving on to the next adventure; Burnt Offerings is "over" once they defeat Nualia. The expectation is that the PCs might explore a little further but then have to start the next adventure, and maybe when they're 5th or 6th or even 7th they can come back and finish off Malfeshnekor; he'll wait. He's not going anywhere.
He's not meant to be the big bad end guy of Burnt Offerings, though.
If the PCs have done every encounter and there's only 4 PCs in your group... they should actually be 5th level.
Will that throw off "The Skinsaw Murders"? (I remember your note on p57 of that adventure raising that very concern.) I thought that it was intended as 4th to 7th?
They dont play every encounter and just killed Nualia (they go straight to the Lyrie's room and when she retreats they follow her to Nualia). But my calculation of pending encounters and the adventur says that the adventure finish in some point in midle four.
Oh, they don't fight Orik. I used him as a hook to introduce a new CP (a friend of the vancaskerkin from Riddleport called to save him from that mad cultists). Now Orik is a NPC appointed to the party.
Malfeshnekor can't hiden in a corner in a case of attack with ranged weapons from the corridor?
Please excuse my poor english.
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Creative Director
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If the PCs have done every encounter and there's only 4 PCs in your group... they should actually be 5th level.Will that throw off "The Skinsaw Murders"? (I remember your note on p57 of that adventure raising that very concern.) I thought that it was intended as 4th to 7th?
Nope; Skinsaw Murders should be fine. In fact, you can sort of start Skinsaw Murders even before the PCs are done with Thistletop; they return from the penultimate trip against the goblins and there's a GRISLY MURDER at the local sawmill. The world should be dynamic enough so that the switch between adventures need not be totally binary.
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CEO
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IThe expectation is that the PCs might explore a little further but then have to start the next adventure, and maybe when they're 5th or 6th or even 7th they can come back and finish off Malfeshnekor; he'll wait. He's not going anywhere.
My group tried to take him on and almost died. One character at -8 only got out because of the Cleric of Abadar with the travel domain and his little dimension door ability.
They are now going through Skinsaw but talk about going back to finish off Malfeshnekor when they hit 5th level. They have an axe to grind with him. :)
-Lisa
I run the assault against Thisletop with a more urgent point of view. The players need to secure some goals in each of their incursions (the first Ripnugget, the second Nualia) or confront serious problems. I added hundreds of goblins to the army of Thisletop (I suppose it's more logical in a goblin tribe) but the first day they were distracted by Shalelu and the second by Gogmurt (He have a pact with the party to erradicate Ripnugget and Nualia from his "political career"). So they can't rest so easily.
My fear with Malfeshnekor is that he can kill one or two CPs by surprise. I don't have poor of Kill CPs but I don't like the idea of see they dying in a combat overhead his possibilities.
Please excuse my poor english.
The barbarian and the fighter went in, got hit losing almost all their hp and decided to retreat and lock the door. He's still in there ;).
I don't know that Nualia even *has* to be trying to free Malfeshnekor. One possibility is that, after learning everything Erylium had to teach her, Lamashtu eventually lead Nualia to the barghest for additional training. As such, Malfie could be seen as just an oracle of sorts for her, rather than a ticking timebomb of imminent release.
That way, maybe your players won't see the need to kill him and be content with locking away future access to him.
In fact, there might even come a point when your players have some questions further down the campaign and decide to come see Malfie for some answers. I'd be like Silence of the Lambs...
Hand of the acolyte + wand of magic missile + eryliums returning dagger + magic elfbane arrows = Dead barghest.
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I don't know that Nualia even *has* to be trying to free Malfeshnekor. One possibility is that, after learning everything Erylium had to teach her, Lamashtu eventually lead Nualia to the barghest for additional training.
R-rated "training" scenario:
I'd like to point out my favorite fan re-write of the whole scenario has Lamashtu (Midwife of Abominations) sending Nualia to consummate her unholy vows with Malfeshnekor. The product of this unholy union was the two Yeth Hounds. In this scenario, she would still be seeking a way to free her consort from its prison.
Reading over issue 1, I find that this version of events is implicitly possible, though never explained. How tasteful. It is just so unwholesome and weird, and yet so perfect. It really makes Issue #1 for me.
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** spoiler omitted **
Wow, that's sick... and so ingenious. :)
Wow, that's sick... and so ingenious. :)
Sadly, I cannot claim credit. I believe it came from the "Upping Nualia's presence" thread or one of the similar ones.
It isn't for everyone, but certainly the wrongness of it can only enhance the role of the villains and Lamashtu...
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Just this past weekend, my group took on M. It was a good fight, and there was one close call, but they did manage to beat him. Caution, and a healthy dose of Adventurer Paranoia (TM) saved the day. 8^)
The halfling ray specialist evoker, after seeing the fire pit when they opened the door, had everybody hang back while he spent 3 r using detect magic. Since M had already heard the party getting ready to open the door, he had already done his preparation, casting his invisibility sphere, mass bull's strength, and blink on himself. Since nobody actually entered the room for 3 rounds, he had to hang out and wait, since he didn't know if they were even going to enter. After detecting the magic auras on him, the party spent 3 more rounds buffing themselves, then entered. This shaved 6 rounds off the blink effect, meaning 4 rounds later, they were able to hit him with impunity. 8^)
He did crit the fighter with a bite once, and should have taken her down immediately, but the cleric had chosen a handy spell from PH2 that let her prevent the damage entirely. If she hadn't had that, the fight might have been over right then; or, at least, would have been much more difficult, with the fighter having to retreat and heal, but she was able to stay and keep M busy. M did hit her once or twice after that, but no more crits, and they managed to finish him off.
So, yes, it was a tough fight, even though the group was 5th level already, and using PfRPG stats, but considering the encounter was two ELs above their level, that's not surprising. A well-equipped, thoughtful and careful party can handle it.
R-rated "training" scenario:
** spoiler omitted **
A nice story twist, but how does this get relayed to the players?
What happens that makes the PCs go "eeewwww!" Short of a crayon-scribbled Mother's Day card on the fridge signed with a pawprint, I don't know how this information would get out.
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R-rated "training" scenario:
** spoiler omitted **A nice story twist, but how does this get relayed to the players?
What happens that makes the PCs go "eeewwww!" Short of a crayon-scribbled Mother's Day card on the fridge signed with a pawprint, I don't know how this information would get out.
Well,
In my campaign, I have made use of Hannah as the midwife of Nualia's initial miscarriage. She was sworn to secrecy about the pregnancy, and never reported the monstrous birth believing that both Nualia and Tobyn had perished in the fire. When it comes to light that she is in fact alive and planning to attack the town, she shares the information of the first monstrous miscarriage with the PCs.
As for planting the info that the Yeth hounds are her children by Malfeshnekor, I would probably use Orik, Gogmurt or a captive Tsuto.
These NPCs are definitely the best vehicles for revealing the plot without resorting to diaries and journals. Of course, I assume the journals are there until the PCs discover things through more satisfactory means...
R-rated "training" scenario:
** spoiler omitted **A nice story twist, but how does this get relayed to the players?
What happens that makes the PCs go "eeewwww!" Short of a crayon-scribbled Mother's Day card on the fridge signed with a pawprint, I don't know how this information would get out.
Well,
** spoiler omitted **
These NPCs are definitely the best vehicles for revealing the plot without resorting to diaries and journals. Of course, I assume the journals are there until the PCs discover things through more satisfactory means...
OoooooooooooooOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo. I like this idea...I'm going to have to spring it on my friends when I finally get to run this and totally gross them out. It should be fun.
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I ended up with a TPK when I ran this particular fight. I ended up pulling the "it was all just a dream" thing, saying it was a warning from Desna.
Forearmed, the Party attempted to defeat him again, and only just got out alive by the skin of their teeth. They ended up going back to Sandpoint and resupplying and rearming, and finally managed to defeat him.
So, yeah, be careful with that one.
I ended up with a TPK when I ran this particular fight. I ended up pulling the "it was all just a dream" thing, saying it was a warning from Desna.
Forearmed, the Party attempted to defeat him again, and only just got out alive by the skin of their teeth. They ended up going back to Sandpoint and resupplying and rearming, and finally managed to defeat him.
So, yeah, be careful with that one.
It's likely that the party will be mangled by Mal. It's one of the situations where they should know when to retreat.
My group encountered him, retreated after one round or so, when they saw how much it hurt being near him.
So they rested, buffed, went back in. For three rounds or so, they went in, attacked for one round (or, rather, the duskblade did, the rest waited outside), retreated, healed, and repeated.
It took them that long to realise that it was sheer luck that let them survive this long - every time, one of his attacks missed, and the character was close to death. Sooner or later, he would have hit with all attacks and just dropped a character.
They left him and resolved to return later.
One character did, leaving the party for it (the player wanted to change a character). By then, he was level 8 or something like that, and would have defeated him - had he been alone....
Xan' managed to escape the PCs, too (I downplayed her powers, too, so they wouldn't be mangled, so they could get her to flee - and were pissed, because of all the treasure they missed). She followed them, biding her time. When she learned that one of them left the party to kill the monster under thistletop, she allied with him, and freed him in return for assistence against this character.
Much later, when the party went looking for their former comrade, they found what was left of him - not that much, after the Sihedron ritual and Mal's feast...
I don't know that Nualia even *has* to be trying to free Malfeshnekor. One possibility is that, after learning everything Erylium had to teach her, Lamashtu eventually lead Nualia to the barghest for additional training.R-rated "training" scenario:
** spoiler omitted **
Well, now! That's going into my Hook Mountain-Burnt Offerings mash-up! Yoink!
(Elyrium's pool gets transplanted to Thistletop as a birthing pool for Mammy Graul.]
One of the best things for any party to do when they discover an opponent that's isolated and that they suspect can't call in reinforcements is to simply walk away and return in an hour once all the opponent's buff spells have worn off.
One of the best things for any party to do when they discover an opponent that's isolated and that they suspect can't call in reinforcements is to simply walk away and return in an hour once all the opponent's buff spells have worn off.
It's almost all at will....
One of the best things for any party to do when they discover an opponent that's isolated and that they suspect can't call in reinforcements is to simply walk away and return in an hour once all the opponent's buff spells have worn off.
Or light a fire and smoke 'em out.
My party was unable to beat Malfeshnekor and there were six of them. I think it's good for players to lose occasionally. I've found in my own 26 years of role playing that the sessions in which I had to "run and fight another day" were very memorable and I enjoy retelling my failures as well as my successes. Just like in life there are situations that we face that we can not overcome "at that time". Which not only can send your adventure off to new and unexpected places but it can put in a nice goal for your players to come back when they are stronger. In Malfeshnikor's case he is royally screwed anyway since he can not get out of the room that he's bound to. Just shut the door and come back when you have lots of long distance stuff and he's toast.
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My group (5 4th-level Pathfinder characters), surprisingly, managed to take him out -- although it was the second-hardest fight so far, and they all thought they were going to die -- I think the whole party had about 2 hp to share between them by the time it was over; everyone but the druid was bleeding out. (Gogmurt, or whatever that mutant goblin's name was, killed one PC and KOed all the rest but one, by wandering across their camp site and attacking as they slept.)
One of the best things for any party to do when they discover an opponent that's isolated and that they suspect can't call in reinforcements is to simply walk away and return in an hour once all the opponent's buff spells have worn off.Or light a fire and smoke 'em out.
Using fire in varous ways that make a DM pull out his hair is my players specialty. Another thing they like to do is divert rivers and streams into the Dungeon to flood it.
My paranoid party fired blindly into the room, witnessed the effects, after finding Malfesh, retreated, taunted from outside the room, used some ranged attacks. While he was outside the door, someone lance charged him, he took the opportunity to start a grapple and bring the player inside his domain. Once everyone surrounded him though he went down pretty fast (those +2's really helped). This was with 4 3rd level PC's. Even he had a hard time getting our tanks AC.
This was with 4 3rd level PC's.
50 point buy, and ECL+10 races for free? ;-P
*grumble PostMonster grumble*
My group in the middle of skinsaw had it rough. 6th level ranger, 5th level cleric and fighter. Sorceress didn't make that game (wince).
All three magic weapons in the group were owned by the cleric, one of which was left in town to be sold. The 2nd was the Heavy Pick +1 from the caves.. first swing (after being passed off) - Critical Fumble Deck - Weapon Destroyed.
The remaining runic Earthbreaker +1 got passed around between all as Malfeshnekor waded into their hp like apple pie on thanksgiving. They did have some element of surprise which helped even things.
In the end the diehard Fighter had probably as many negative hp as the rest had positive, but they did manage to kill him. Of course it didn't help that the cleric had Searing Light memorized (b/c of earlier undead) for a whole 2d8 damage... that missed.
All in all, a tough customer, but luck is big with him.
We opened the door, Malfeshnekor started to speak, we closed the door and haven't been back since.
The villain that really totalled us was Bruthazmus. The party got caught between doors outside of the temple area on level two. The dogs had torn us a new one, we were trying to keep the doors shut to retreat, and Bruthazmus opened one door, shot an arrow and dropped a PC. The party succeeded in holding the door shut. A few rounds passed. He pops up in the other doorway, takes a shot, drops a PC. It was like a shooting gallery and the party were the sitting ducks.
The ambulatory PCs eventually went running around the outer walls of Thistletop with Bruthazmus climbing over the rooftops and taking pot-shots. Survivors managed to lower/drop the goblins' boat into the water. Then they dived into the water. The boat capsized and PCs were paddling using the boat as cover as Bruthazmus peppered the water with arrows.
We started with 7 PCs. Two dead/down (and left behind), one unconscious and floating, four on or near single digit hit points cowering behind a capsized rowboat while dog-paddling for their lives.
The party eventually defeated Nualia on the second attempt but, you guessed it, Bruthazmus escaped.
Daggone! Bruzathmus was busy with his new harem when my group encountered him -- he went down like a chump.
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Them women will do it to you every time.
Them women will do it to you every time.
That's easy for you to say, Mr. Malfeshnekor-killer!
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I just thought, that (to the tune of a former (UK?) Christmas Number 1 'Stop the Cavalry'*)
I am pretty sure it didn't get to Number 1.
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Daggone! Bruzathmus was busy with his new harem when my group encountered him -- he went down like a chump.
Pretty much the same here - though that was their second encounter with him, and.. well let's just say there are some scars from that that will never heal.
Four member party: half-orc monk, aasimar samurai, gnomish alchemist, gnomish witch. They had just opened the room where Malfeshnekor is trapped, and the monk had entered and I had Malfeshnekor (blink, mass bull's strength and invisibility sphere buffed) surprise attack for 28 damage, dropping the monk to 8 Hp from full. The greater barghest then maneuvered to attack the samurai for a minimal damage bite of 7.
The witch went next, casting her slumber hex, Malfeshnekor blew his Will save with a 2, and the samurai pulled her naginata to coupe de grace the sleeping barghest. Coupe de grace being an automatic crit, she did 80 damage, which, as I understand it, even accounting for the DR 10/ magic, meant that though Mal didn't take enough damage to instantly die, he faced a Fort save of 70...
I gave them full xp, and they have a barghest hide to take to the tanner, but did I miss something? Should they have been able to take him out?
Thread necro aside, he's still got a 5% chance of making that save. The hit also has to a: be aimed at the right square. b: pass the 50% invisibility and c: pass the 20% blink.
And the sleep and cdg saves are made in secret, since the the party won't know if the invisible Mal failed.
Except once he attacks, he's visible, right? Invisibility sphere functions as invisibility? Would the hex be affected by the blink effect... crap. It would, wouldn't it.
Damn it, I thought that went way too easy.
Of course!
The hex would have had to beat the 50% miss chance for the blink effect.
And since Invisibility sphere is an at will ability, Malfeshnekor could have attacked, and on his next turn gone invisibile and moved.
Crap. This is what happens when I forget my notes and play tired.
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My players reacted admirably to Malfeshnekor. When they opened they door, I had his voice boom out from the room asking them to parley. They promptly said "Oh hell no!" and slammed the door shut, sealing him in the room once again. They then proceeded to haul ass back to Sandpoint to destroy the key. I awarded them full XP for Malfeshnekor as they had an unfortunate tendency earlier to try and kill everything they encountered, leading to some unfortunate setbacks. Given their situation after just barely defeating an ambush by Nualia, Lyrie, Orik and Bruthasmus they were very wise to do this as they would have been wiped out had they tried to fight. Players - they grow up so fast!