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I think the scribing costs for wizards should be done away with, or at least significantly reduced.
Wizards need to spend at least as much on gear as the other classes, but then they also have to buy scrolls and then pay 100GP per spell level to scribe them into their books.
The ability to have an appropriate spell, with enough forewarning is what is supposed to set the wizard apart from the raw power of the sorcerer, but the economics make this cost prohibitive.
I think the scribing costs for wizards should be done away with, or at least significantly reduced.
Wizards need to spend at least as much on gear as the other classes, but then they also have to buy scrolls and then pay 100GP per spell level to scribe them into their books.
The ability to have an appropriate spell, with enough forewarning is what is supposed to set the wizard apart from the raw power of the sorcerer, but the economics make this cost prohibitive.
Letmethinkaboutthis... no.
The cost of crafting magic items and time is the only thing that limits their production. Right now wizards have 'nearly limitless power', give them free scrolls and you bump them right up into the 'limitless power' category.
I would say no.
however lower the cost for a spell book be nice.
then again a wizard does not need armor or weapons so, maybe it is fine
I third the veto on this.
Wizards get two free spells a level added to the spellbook. If you want more, you get to pay for it. Besides, once you hit a certain level, you grab Craft Wondrous Item, learn secret page, make yourself a blessed book for 6,250 gp, and never worry about it again, until the book is full. Problem solved.
I third the veto on this.
Wizards get two free spells a level added to the spellbook. If you want more, you get to pay for it. Besides, once you hit a certain level, you grab Craft Wondrous Item, learn secret page, make yourself a blessed book for 6,250 gp, and never worry about it again, until the book is full. Problem solved.
Wow ... I as a GM was worried about bankrupting the party wizard with new spells
No need to change the cost now, I agree.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Since the blessed book drops the cost per spell level to scribe into your spellbook to 12.5 (6.25 if you craft the book yourself), and the cost to do so without the book is 100 per spell level, why not simply eliminate the magic item and change the cost to 15 gp per spell level and be done with it?
Director of Games
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Hello all,
This is an interesting discussion and one that we have had around the office a few times. Wizards need some sort of limiting mechanic to prevent them from scribing just about every spell into their immense tomes. The cost mechanic is a good one, but I too am a bit concerned over price. Assuming a wizard scribes just two new spells of each level into his book, it costs him about 9k up through 20th level. This is not too high a price to pay all things considered. The tricky part is low levels, where a couple hundred gp are not so easily spent.
I am open to suggestions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Since the blessed book drops the cost per spell level to scribe into your spellbook to 12.5 (6.25 if you craft the book yourself), and the cost to do so without the book is 100 per spell level, why not simply eliminate the magic item and change the cost to 15 gp per spell level and be done with it?
This is a good suggestion.
A more complex (therefor less desirable) solution:
cost of new spell = 10g * (Spell Level^2)
or:
1st: 10gp
2nd: 40gp
3rd: 90gp
4th: 160gp
5th: 250gp
6th: 360gp
7th: 490gp
8th: 640gp
9th: 880gp
Hello all,
This is an interesting discussion and one that we have had around the office a few times. Wizards need some sort of limiting mechanic to prevent them from scribing just about every spell into their immense tomes. The cost mechanic is a good one, but I too am a bit concerned over price. Assuming a wizard scribes just two new spells of each level into his book, it costs him about 9k up through 20th level. This is not too high a price to pay all things considered. The tricky part is low levels, where a couple hundred gp are not so easily spent.
I am open to suggestions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Except his 2 spells per level are absolutely free right now. Says so in the magic system explanation.
I think it's not that much to ask the wizard to pay a measly 900 gp to add a 9th level spell to his book so he can cast it for the rest of his life, and that's assuming he doesn't have a blessed book to absorb the cost with (no doubt created by himself).
Yes if the wizard buys a scroll that costs him money... but the rules suggest just charging 50 gp per spell level to let him look at someone else's spell book... that's 450 gp for a ninth level spell. Even adding in the 900 gp from above he can afford how many spells with what the fighter paid for his magical weapon?
Especially since the wizard is getting all his magic items for half price by crafting them himself, and with no exp loss.
And this doesn't account for the wizard just grabbing the spellbooks of any other wizard the party defeats, which are free spells for him.
I like toyrobots ideal, it scales as they level, so I like that one best so far.
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I would not mind seeing the Blessed Book disappear or heavily revised. It is a major balance breaker. Even if you do not make one yourself, any wizard will want to buy as many as they can to get the reduced spell scribing cost.
As always with such things, I would look at the original.
In Unearthed Arcana, a standard spell book held 24-96 levels of spells (depending on the level of spell), weighed 15 lbs., had an encumberance of 45 lbs., and got a +2 save bonus against energy attacks.
A travelling spell book held 6-30 levels of spells (again depending on level of spell), weighed 3 lbs. had an encumberance of 6 lbs., and got no save bonus.
A blessed book helf 45 spells of any level, was the same size and thus the same inferred weight and enumberance as a travelling spell book, and got a +3 save bonus. No discount on scribing cost was mentioned.
The OGL version is completely off the scale as an improvement, from simply changing the size and save bonus to imploding the cost to scribe spells.
Beyond that, I think the cost limits on a wizard's spell book are an important balancing factor. If it cost nothing, a wizard would add all spells as a matter of course.
If reducing the cost somewhat is needed, why not just use the same formula for NPC spellcasting:
10 * spell level * minimum caster level
So:
0 = 5 gp
1 = 10 gp
2 = 60 gp
3 = 150 gp
4 = 280 gp
5 = 450 gp
6 = 660 gp
7 = 810 gp
8 = 1,020 gp
9 = 1,530 gp
That increases it at higher levels where the cost is more affordable, and reduces it at lower levels where the cost could be prohibitive.
And it is a formula that is already used.
Tie the cost to copy a spell into the spellbook to scroll writing mechanics, and allow the blessed book to half the cost. The blessed book is still 10 spellbooks in one, so still a compelling option, especially if you are looking at high level spells. Maybe even allow a desparate wizard to cast a spell from his or her spellbook, and blow it out of the book, so to speak, just as if it were a scroll. This justifies the existance of scribe scroll as a first level wizard feat, as well, which is a neat solution, and means also that wizard spellbooks received as treasure might have gaps, and be useful even if the wizard has all the spells in it.
In Unearthed Arcana, a standard spell book held 24-96 levels of spells (depending on the level of spell), weighed 15 lbs., had an encumberance of 45 lbs., and got a +2 save bonus against energy attacks.
A travelling spell book held 6-30 levels of spells (again depending on level of spell), weighed 3 lbs. had an encumberance of 6 lbs., and got no save bonus.
A blessed book helf 45 spells of any level, was the same size and thus the same inferred weight and enumberance as a travelling spell book, and got a +3 save bonus. No discount on scribing cost was mentioned.
I wouldn't mind that being the default size rules
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Tie the cost to copy a spell into the spellbook to scroll writing mechanics, and allow the blessed book to half the cost. The blessed book is still 10 spellbooks in one, so still a compelling option, especially if you are looking at high level spells. Maybe even allow a desparate wizard to cast a spell from his or her spellbook, and blow it out of the book, so to speak, just as if it were a scroll. This justifies the existance of scribe scroll as a first level wizard feat, as well, which is a neat solution, and means also that wizard spellbooks received as treasure might have gaps, and be useful even if the wizard has all the spells in it.
This is elegant. If you change the scribing of a spell into a spellbook into a slightly higher cost than a scroll (30 gp x caster level x spell level), you end up with a cheaper low-level spell to scribe, and a higher cost for higher level spells (30 gp for a 1st level spell, 180 gp for a 2nd level spell, 450 for a 3rd level spell, etc).
And yes, I think you should be able to cast them out of the book with a caster level check or a Spellcraft check, and yes, it wipes out the spell from the book. It would make spellbooks found less of a sell-for-treasure resource, and more of a scroll-compendium resource.
And yes, I think you should be able to cast them out of the book with a caster level check or a Spellcraft check, and yes, it wipes out the spell from the book. It would make spellbooks found less of a sell-for-treasure resource, and more of a scroll-compendium resource.
I could go for that. Except master spell books should not have there spells removed, then how many wizard you know gonna carry around a 45 pound books and then hold still long enough to take advantage of that?
In my games I allow a wizard to use his main book like that. The main book is always safe at home , mind you as loosing that would be devastating to a wizard.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Another factor to address as part of this discussion is the time to add a spell to a spellbook. Even if adding spells costs no gold, the 1 day per spell to add it is a limiting factor. In many campaigns, time is of the essesnce, and a wizard already needs to carefully ration their time between adding new spells and crafting items.
1 spell per day is a bit much. 1 hour per spell level would seem a better time limit
Another factor to address as part of this discussion is the time to add a spell to a spellbook. Even if adding spells costs no gold, the 1 day per spell to add it is a limiting factor. In many campaigns, time is of the essesnce, and a wizard already needs to carefully ration their time between adding new spells and crafting items.
Hmm... this is a limiting factor in some campaigns but in others it's just not an issue. Many campaigns and even APs are designs with weeks or months of downtime between modules/ adventures.
The only thing I can think other than gold is just a hard limit on the top end... maybe intelligence bonus or even 3 times int bonus times caster level spells in the casters book.
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Firstly, a clarification: I am not talking about reducing the cost of scribing a scroll I want the cost of scribing into a spellbook reduced.
Secondly: Wizards may not wear armour, but that means they have to spend more for the more powerful protective items.
Third: The Blessed Book option requires waiting until 7th level, a feat a spell and that you somehow get a whole week (per book) where nothing happens.
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I think it's not that much to ask the wizard to pay a measly 900 gp to add a 9th level spell to his book so he can cast it for the rest of his life, and that's assuming he doesn't have a blessed book to absorb the cost with (no doubt created by himself).
Yes if the wizard buys a scroll that costs him money... but the rules suggest just charging 50 gp per spell level to let him look at someone else's spell book... that's 450 gp for a ninth level spell. Even adding in the 900 gp from above he can afford how many spells with what the fighter paid for his magical weapon?
Especially since the wizard is getting all his magic items for half price by crafting them himself, and with no exp loss.
And this doesn't account for the wizard just grabbing the spellbooks of any other wizard the party defeats, which are free spells for him.
1. How often are people running across wizards at the right time that are willing to let you look at their spellbook - I have never, unless there happens to be a second PC wizard.
2. The wizard is not getting all his magic items for half price unless he is spending all his feat slots on the appropriate feats instead of metamagic, spell focus / specialisation / mastery (not even considering anything not directly geared to magic)
3. How many captured spellbooks is a wizard likely to find, because I have seen a grand total of 1 in 11 years...and that was in a organised play module.
The cost for scribing into your spellbook is linear per spell level. The character wealth is like exponential in levels.
A smaller portion of your gold pieces go toward your spellbook at higher level (assuming same number of scribed spell per level). This leaves more powerful options open (crafting, simply buying).
The wizard *used* to need a boost at lower levels, not higher.
So the ratio cost_for_scribing/character_wealth as a function of level should be inverted.
Or, an other option is simply to keep the ratio constant. Say, 1/4 of character wealth could be used to scribe new spells, look at what spell level is cast at said level, assume X number of spells to be scribed in average at the highest spell level possible, bang you have your price.
I also like the option to "burn", on the fly, a spellbook page to get that spell in a critical moment. Used that in a recent game, very exciting to have a fellow party member with use magic device scavenge the wizard's spell book and try to cast a dispel magic from the page to save the wizard's ass.
Hello all,
This is an interesting discussion and one that we have had around the office a few times. Wizards need some sort of limiting mechanic to prevent them from scribing just about every spell into their immense tomes. The cost mechanic is a good one, but I too am a bit concerned over price. Assuming a wizard scribes just two new spells of each level into his book, it costs him about 9k up through 20th level. This is not too high a price to pay all things considered. The tricky part is low levels, where a couple hundred gp are not so easily spent.
I am open to suggestions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The easiest mechanic is to make a "scroll" and a "spell in a spellbook" the exact same magical object like they did in the earliest DnD (essentially, all spells in spellbooks were scrolls you could "cast and destroy" or "memorize from and not destroy"). Transferring from the scroll form to the spellbook form would have no cost, but making a copy is the same cost as making a new scroll.
This works because at low levels a scroll you find in treasure may be the only treasure you get that adventure and adding another cost on top of that is prohibitive. Heck, you might just be scraping together your coppers for a few extra spells known and the extra cost bites you then too. At high levels, people usually don't pay any scribing costs at all since they just use captured spellbooks or they pay much less by simply buying copies of spells and not scrolls that are then scribed.
Also, this means that spellbooks found will just be actual collections of scrolls that can be sold or cast or UMDed. This solves the problem of people just giving the spellbooks to the wizard and then allotting the remaining treasure (as happens in most parties, which is why scribing costs were invented). Then there is actually an incentive to add it to the total value of the treasure found since the wizard or any UMD character could use the spellbook as scrolls (which in my case is usually "all my characters regardless of class").
The only extra corrective mechanic you might need is one where a Wizard can scribe spells has learned without needing to have them in memory and taking up slots. Unless you do that, someone might cast a spell from their spellbook and then lose it forever (though to be fair, 3.x has been fine with Wizards losing their class features when they lose their books to other circumstances, so that may not seem a problem to you).
Firstly, a clarification: I am not talking about reducing the cost of scribing a scroll I want the cost of scribing into a spellbook reduced.
Secondly: Wizards may not wear armour, but that means they have to spend more for the more powerful protective items.
Third: The Blessed Book option requires waiting until 7th level, a feat a spell and that you somehow get a whole week (per book) where nothing happens.
Yeah, I realized it after my post... confusing terminology.
In any case, it is frustrating for a wizard to have to pay to enhance his power compared to other players. But how many other players can spend a small amount of money and get essentially a new class ability?
It's tough if your DM makes you buy scrolls and pay to scribe them, my DM and I both allow players to pay a small fee to a guild to get access to third party spell books.
I'm kind of leaning towards the above poster's idea of copying spells being equal to the cost of a scroll.
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In any case, it is frustrating for a wizard to have to pay to enhance his power compared to other players. But how many other players can spend a small amount of money and get essentially a new class ability?
It's tough if your DM makes you buy scrolls and pay to scribe them, my DM and I both allow players to pay a small fee to a guild to get access to third party spell books.
I'm kind of leaning towards the above poster's idea of copying spells being equal to the cost of a scroll.
I would put forward that the ability to learn more spells is an integral class ability.
That's neither here nor there though - I think that the proposed solution is elegant in its simplicity.
This solution also explains what happens to all those spellbooks from generations of wizards - either they are used as scrolls or passed on / sold to / stolen by other wizards.
K, I back your idea, and was going to further elucidate my original suggestion to make spellbooks a sub-category of scroll. The price is cheaper or close to even with the current rules, up to level 4 spells, and by the time level 7 rolls around, the gold cost of scribing is negligable.
One limitation I would have is that you cannot memorize off of someone else's spellbook or scroll. If you want to memorize the spell, then you have to scribe it yourself. Easy fix, now that scrolls carry no XP cost.
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K, I back your idea, and was going to further elucidate my original suggestion to make spellbooks a sub-category of scroll. The price is cheaper or close to even with the current rules, up to level 4 spells, and by the time level 7 rolls around, the gold cost of scribing is negligable.
One limitation I would have is that you cannot memorize off of someone else's spellbook or scroll. If you want to memorize the spell, then you have to scribe it yourself. Easy fix, now that scrolls carry no XP cost.
This limitation puts us right back in the same boat. If you want to be able to memorize the spell you have to buy or capture it and pay to scribe it into your book - that's the same as we have now.
With K's suggestion a bought or captured scroll or spellbook becomes what you memorize off of.
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I vote no on the OP suggestions.
But I have advocated for making wizards pay for ALL of their scrolls. After all, the fighter has to buy a magic weapon to remain useful, so too should the wizard. Having this as a penalty for knowing potentially every arcane spell makes it unnecessary to further boost the sorcerer.
However, like Jason B. I think the low levels may be too restricted while the upper levels become open season.
Perhaps the formula should be based on both spell level AND total spells known per level - sort of a throwback.
gp = 100 * (spell level) * (number of spells known of that spell level + 1)
So the first level wizard pays 100gp to scribe his first 1st level spell, 200gp for his second, etc. His first 2nd level spell costs 200gp, the second 400gp, etc. So on to 9th level = 900gp for first, 1800gp for the second, etc.
I know that we are running across spellbooks constantly in RotR. If you can find magic items for sell finding a someone with a spellbook shouldn't be any harder.
If we are going to give wizards their spells for free why even require the spellbook?
AND
Why don't we just give the fighter his magic weapons and armor for free too? After all he needs them just as much to be effective at higher levels.
Yes crafting magic items takes feats... of which the wizard is getting 15 minimum over 20 levels... and there are only 8 item creation feats, one of which is a waste anyways craft potion and one of which he gets for free (scribe scroll). Truthfully the only ones the wizard should really look for are craft wondrous item, craft rings, craft staves. Let the fighter cope on his own when it comes to magic arms and armor. ;D
There are:
24 x 9th level spells x 150 = 32,400 (216 pages)
35 x 8th level spells x 150 = 42,000 (280 pages)
35 x 7th level spells x 150 = 36,750 (245 pages)
43 x 6th level spells x 150 = 38,700 (258 pages)
43 x 5th level spells x 150 = 32,250 (215 pages)
41 x 4th level spells x 150 = 24,600 (164 pages)
45 x 3rd level spells x 150 = 20,250 (135 pages)
50 x 2nd level spells x 150 = 15,000 (100 pages)
42 x 1st level spells x 150 = 6,300 (42 pages)
19 x 0th level spells x 0 = 0 (19 pages)
Total cost = 248,250 gp (1674 pages)
Minus free spells = -27,150 (not including bonus spells at 1st level)
Final cost of ALL wizard spells = 221,100 gp
OR Final costs of all wizard spells = 25,000 gp (2 blessed books)
By the way:
Focus Costs for all wizard spells* = 5,700gp
*excludes Soul Bind (1,000gp per HD) and protection from spells (1,000gp per recipient)
Material component costs for spells:
Animate Dead = 25gp per HD
Arcane Lock = 25gp
Circle of Death = 500gp
Continual Flame = 50gp
False Vision = 250gp
Fire Trap = 25gp
Legend Lore = 250gp
Limited Wish = 1,500gp
Nondetection = 50gp
Programmed Image = 25gp
Project Image = 5gp
Protection from Spells = 500gp
Refuge = 1,500gp
Stoneskin = 250gp
Teleport Circle = 1,000gp
Temporal Stasis = 5,000gp
True Seeing = 250gp
Undeath to Death = 500gp
Wish = 25,000gp
Total component costs for all spells in one day = 36,080gp
But here's the thing, as you use up material components, the DM has to let you have them back, as they affect your wealth per level. If you lose all of the components, then you are behind WBL and therefore behind everyone else. If he doesn't well, only three of those spells see regular use: Nondetection, Stoneskin, and True Seeing.
Total Cost of Playing a wizard with all spells and focuses and components at level 20 (assuming a party of 4 for protection from spells not casting soul bind and not using animate dead):
266,880 gp
Wealth By Level 20: 880,000 gp
Left after spells, et al. = 613,120 gp
As opposed by the fighter, who is going to spend 200,000 for one +10 magic weapon, and 100,000 gp for one +10 armor of any flavor.
The wizard doesn't need these becuase he can rely on his spells to both protect himself and attack his foes.
I guess my real problem with this idea is:
You already are getting, "Fanominal cosmic power!" why do you expect it to be free? You want free spells go play sorcerer, and forget about your infinite versitility.
All power comes at a price... the wizard's price just happens to be a small Gold Piece sum.
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Last time I played a wizard I had 10 copies of magic missle in 15 different spellbooks. What I'm saying is you don't need to scribe spells into "your" spellbook if you get it in treasure because if you get a spellbook in treasure it is your spellbook. Sure that takes a spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) but a wizard with a minimum 14 Int can easily Take 10 on this even if they didn't put point in spellcraft at every level. You need to at least put points in at the odd levels (the levels you get a spell level), but with spellcraft being the most important skill I personally would max it out. Sure my wizard has a lot of spellbooks but that's why bags of holding were invented.
The easiest mechanic is to make a "scroll" and a "spell in a spellbook" the exact same magical object like they did in the earliest DnD (essentially, all spells in spellbooks were scrolls you could "cast and destroy" or "memorize from and not destroy"). Transferring from the scroll form to the spellbook form would have no cost, but making a copy is the same cost as making a new scroll.
On the one hand, I think this idea makes a lot of sense. Why shouldn't you be able to prepare a spell from a scroll if you can copy a spell from a scroll into a spellbook and prepare it from the spellbook?
But on the other hand, I almost wish that spellbooks were non-transferrable. I dislike the fact that there's a class with a class feature you can sell in a pawnshop. But that's not going to change in Pathfinder, I'm sure.
I think the scribing costs for wizards should be done away with, or at least significantly reduced.
Wizards need to spend at least as much on gear as the other classes, but then they also have to buy scrolls and then pay 100GP per spell level to scribe them into their books.
The ability to have an appropriate spell, with enough forewarning is what is supposed to set the wizard apart from the raw power of the sorcerer, but the economics make this cost prohibitive.
I was thinking that maybe they ought to explain another reason wizards start off with scribe scroll by explaining that rather it costing a base 100gp per spell level you use scribe scroll costs and simply explain that a wizard can use their spellbook to cast spells except its treated that the spellbook located spells function like the scrolls if used by another wizard who doesn't have their spellbook handy and isn't interested in learning their spells from another wizard's spellbook (and is feeling nasty to boot!).
It makes spellbooks that much more important and removes what I see as an unjustified cost even though I have only ever run 2 wizards (so far as I can recollect at this moment as one was in a one off 2nd edition game and the other in a pathfinder beta game which is currently stalled) but it feels better to me and maybe adding spellbooks as a wondrous item for those important defences such as endure elements or protection from evil permanant spells or wards in case someone tries to destroy said spellbook and what rules are their for travelling spellbooks by the way?
Could I running say a multi-class rogue/wizard using scrolls as his spellbook and when he does pick up a spellbook he uses his collection of scrolls as his travelling spellbook?
Is this idea any good?
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As opposed by the fighter, who is going to spend 200,000 for one +10 magic weapon, and 100,000 gp for one +10 armor of any flavor.
The wizard doesn't need these becuase he can rely on his spells to both protect himself and attack his foes.
...And the fighter can swing that sword 3 to four times every round, all day and wear that armour all day. (+ insert every other benefit the fighter has over the wizard in terms of BAB and HP
The wizard doesn't get to cast all of those spells - he still has to pick his spells every day.
I just propose that there is a lower cost to having some of the versatility that the wizard is SUPPOSED to have by design IF they have enough time and enogh knowledge about the challenges.
Also, the cost to buy those spells has been completely ignored:
To Buy Spell Lvl Cstr Lvl Scrll Mult Cost
16 x 9 x 17 x 25 = 61,200
31 x 8 x 15 x 25 = 93,000
31 x 7 x 13 x 25 = 70,525
39 x 6 x 11 x 25 = 64,350
39 x 5 x 9 x 25 = 43,875
37 x 4 x 7 x 25 = 25,900
41 x 3 x 5 x 25 = 15,375
46 x 2 x 3 x 25 = 6,900
36 x 1 x 1 x 25 = 900
0 x 0.5 x 1 x 25 = 0
TOTAL COST 382,025
This is not counting the material component cost that would go into the scrolls that have material components that cost over 1GP.
That's on top of the 200K copying costs laid out in the post above.
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I believe the suggestion of making a spellbook essentially a group of scrolls, changing scrolls so that they can be treated as a memorization source is a good one.
I have seen the Blessed Book (BB) mentioned as an 'easy' fix to this problem, that drastically reduces the cost per page and has the added benefits of being small, durable, waterproof and lockable.
If the 'Scrolls' solution is not acceptable and the Blessed Book is such an easy and necessary solution, why not then make the cost to write into a regular spellbook the same price per page as the BB, 6.25GP.
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Especially since the wizard is getting all his magic items for half price by crafting them himself, and with no exp loss.
And this doesn't account for the wizard just grabbing the spellbooks of any other wizard the party defeats, which are free spells for him.
This is true.
I always considered the costs of updating the spellbook to be the cost of a wizard's essential gear, not some extra onerous tax.And the Spellcraft DC for using a borrowed book was only an issue in the early levels. After a while it became unable to fail, unless using a house-rule that such skills fail on a natural 1, or the one where a natural 1 counts as a roll of 'minus 10'.
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Maybe even allow a desparate wizard to cast a spell from his or her spellbook, and blow it out of the book, so to speak, just as if it were a scroll. This justifies the existance of scribe scroll as a first level wizard feat, as well, which is a neat solution, and means also that wizard spellbooks received as treasure might have gaps, and be useful even if the wizard has all the spells in it.
This was our house-rule in 2nd Edition, to justify the existence of low-level scrolls in low-level treasure, when the official rules prevented anyone but almost-retired wizards creating items. They were simply pages torn from spellbooks.
It also reduced the number of captured books being carried around, as they were often cannibalized in desperate circumstances.
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I would not mind seeing the Blessed Book disappear or heavily revised. It is a major balance breaker. Even if you do not make one yourself, any wizard will want to buy as many as they can to get the reduced spell scribing cost.
As always with such things, I would look at the original.In Unearthed Arcana, a standard spell book held 24-96 levels of spells (depending on the level of spell), weighed 15 lbs., had an encumberance of 45 lbs., and got a +2 save bonus against energy attacks.
A travelling spell book held 6-30 levels of spells (again depending on level of spell), weighed 3 lbs. had an encumberance of 6 lbs., and got no save bonus.
A blessed book held 45 spells of any level, was the same size and thus the same inferred weight and enumberance as a travelling spell book, and got a +3 save bonus. No discount on scribing cost was mentioned.The OGL version is completely off the scale as an improvement, from simply changing the size and save bonus to imploding the cost to scribe spells.
There was also the implied restriction, that this item in no way increased the number of spells a wizard could know of each level, which was capped by Int. Without having my old books to hand, I can't recall the actual limits, but they were onerous. I believe even with the max Int of 18 you were limited to 9 or 10 of each spell level in your entire career. This forced some really difficult choices, as you needed to maintain a balance of offence, defence and utility. In order to break this barrier, a wizard needed an almost-Godlike Int of 19+.
For those newer players who think this isn't particularly difficult to achieve, this was a version of the game in which stat increases were virtually non-existent. (Not to mention you were originally intended to be rolling your initial stats on 3d6!).
In effect, the blessed book was a minor curiosity, that enabled a wizard to carry his entire collection in one volume, but didn't increase his repertoire in any way. It was a way of hand-waving away the logistics of adventuring, like a bag of holding. And if you already had such a bag, you already had a way to cart your whole library round with you.
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1. How often are people running across wizards at the right time that are willing to let you look at their spellbook - I have never, unless there happens to be a second PC wizard.
All PCs should be living, breathing, members of their community, with ties to other members of their profession. Who trained the PC to 1st level? Presumably, one of the justifications for training an apprentice is that they go out into the world on errands for you, bring back exotic materials and new spells for you to swap.
Even if the PC has abandoned his mentor, he should still attempt to be on good terms with other wizards.
Several PC classes assume the PC becomes a member of an order to access the class abilities.
And, finally, yes, the second PC wizard makes a big difference. If the two players get their heads together, and agree not to duplicate their automatic levelling-up choices, then both get automatic access to 4 spells every time they level up, without taking into account any scrolls bought, or found as treasure.
2. The wizard is not getting all his magic items for half price unless he is spending all his feat slots on the appropriate feats instead of metamagic, spell focus / specialisation / mastery (not even considering anything not directly geared to magic)
Scribe Scroll is free, and most of the other items can currently be fudged via one feat (Craft Wondrous Item), due to a huge loophole in the rules, which bases crafting rules on the shape of the item, rather than it's capabilities. See the Magic Item Compendium from WoTC for many examples of egregious abuse of this fact. New crafting rules are required, to fix a crafter's potential, based on the effects they can replicate (single-use/charged/permanent; caster/non-caster activation; minor/medium/major effect).
3. How many captured spellbooks is a wizard likely to find, because I have seen a grand total of 1 in 11 years...and that was in a organised play module.
Really? Ouch.
I admit that in Shackled City, it took me until level 5 to find my first kill-trophy, and then, half of it was opposition schools (Ho.Ho. Hilarious.) Maybe we missed a few, because I know we bypassed a huge portion of the first chapter, but I was getting rather frantic, hitting the magic shop for whatever scrolls I could get.Normally, though, they should be far more common than 1 in 11 years of play, and frankly, this is something that is impossible to legislate in the game rules, since it is so specific to individual DMs and their concept of the magic level in their campaigns.
Was this some low-magic campaign, where the wizard class had strict pre-requisites, or social stigma? Were most of the arcane opposition sorcerors and adepts? It seems to me, that if the party are fighting wizard NPCs, that each such NPC they defeat should own at least one spellbook, and that it has to be kept somewhere.
Now, it may be hidden in secret, trapped compartments, it may be trapped itself, it may be invisible, disguised, in a dimensional pocket, it may sprout legs, and lead them a merry chase round the Underdark, but it has to exist somewhere, and be accessible to the owner on a daily basis, which limits how secure you can make it, especially if the owner is travelling, rather than in his lair.
High-level wizards do have some devious tricks, but low-mid-level wizards less so, and if they're using their daily resources to protect their books from detection and summoning them from the ether, they'll have less juice left for actual daily wizarding.
How do your PCs protect theirs?
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Reminds me of a previous game, around 16th level the party wizard spent several thousand gp to buy 6 books worth of spells.. though they belonged to other wizards, the spells were random.. and it just seemed absolutely ridiculous to me at the time.. since all he needed to do was make a spellcraft check that really didn't matter, since he could autopass every time..
So, ya.. it needs changed..
...And the fighter can swing that sword 3 to four times every round, all day and wear that armour all day. (+ insert every other benefit the fighter has over the wizard in terms of BAB and HP
But how much does it cost for a fighter to learn a new trick? Say he want's a little more flexibility and wants to learn to bullrush, how much does it cost for him to pick up bullrush? Because spells go way beyond the flexibility of changing out a weapon, they give entire new suits of powers.
The wizard doesn't get to cast all of those spells - he still has to pick his spells every day.
I just propose that there is a lower cost to having some of the versatility that the wizard is SUPPOSED to have by design IF they have enough time and enogh knowledge about the challenges.
The wizard is already capable of having a huge spell list of spells per level.
TOTAL COST 382,025
You are assuming that the wizard has to buy spells on scrolls which in most campaigns is not the case, many DMs allow borrowing spellbooks or access to mage guilds. You are also assuming that the wizard must buy every spell in the game which is just silly. The wizard is one of the 2 most powerful classes in the game with far less than 1/3 of all the spells in his book.
I suppose for simplicity it might make thing easier to standardize on just the cost of the scroll. For many players that would be significantly MORE expensive than the current arrangement.
The wizards I've played have about 5-10 spells per level and at lower levels had to scrape by with 3-4 spells/ level or just the base spells. Even so my wizard character never felt weak or under powered relative to the party once he was past 3rd level anyhow.
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TOTAL COST 382,025You are assuming that the wizard has to buy spells on scrolls which in most campaigns is not the case, many DMs allow borrowing spellbooks or access to mage guilds. You are also assuming that the wizard must buy every spell in the game which is just silly. The wizard is one of the 2 most powerful classes in the game with far less than 1/3 of all the spells in his book.
I am not assuming that - This was a direct response to Abraham spalding's argument on how cheap it was to get all spells. My point was that he is ignoring 2 thirds of the cost of spells.
Also, people talk about things such as DM's allowing borrowing of spellbooks or access to mage guilds or a number of other ways that their specific campaign reduces the cost. Exactly!!
Unless the DMs do these things to get around it, the cost is exorbitant.
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I still believe that the combined cost of buying (or taking as treasure share) + copying should be reduced.
Most of those opposed seem to be playing in games where their DMs are providing some mechanism for reducing it already. They're not affected and believe the current system is fine because they're already getting around it.
So there's an acknowledgment that wizards should known more spells than they get at the moment.
So this got me to thinking that maybe the very simplest thing is to just have the wizard get 3 spells known per level, rather than 2. This changes the rules the least and means a budding wizard doesn't rely absolutely on the vagaries of DMs - whether they choose to provide wizardly schools and mentors or not. It still restricts knowing vast numbers of spells but provides more of the flexibility (with preparation) that wizards are supposed to have.
(I'm going to start a new thread with this suggestion, because I think it differs enough from the current discussion)
I am not assuming that - This was a direct response to Abraham spalding's argument on how cheap it was to get all spells. My point was that he is ignoring 2 thirds of the cost of spells.TOTAL COST 382,025You are assuming that the wizard has to buy spells on scrolls which in most campaigns is not the case, many DMs allow borrowing spellbooks or access to mage guilds. You are also assuming that the wizard must buy every spell in the game which is just silly. The wizard is one of the 2 most powerful classes in the game with far less than 1/3 of all the spells in his book.
? You are assuming it by pricing it out that way. You are radically overstating the costs of acquiring spells in both by overstating the number of spells and the cost to acquire the spells. It's sort of like a fighter pricing out a +5 weapon of every weapon type in the game and calling that the cost of being a fighter.
Also, people talk about things such as DM's allowing borrowing of spellbooks or access to mage guilds or a number of other ways that their specific campaign reduces the cost. Exactly!!
Unless the DMs do these things to get around it, the cost is exorbitant.
You act like this is unusual or some sort of work-a-round but it's a method suggested in the rulebooks.
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...3. How many captured spellbooks is a wizard likely to find, because I have seen a grand total of 1 in 11 years...and that was in a organised play module.
Really? Ouch.
I admit that in Shackled City, it took me until level 5 to find my first kill-trophy, and then, half of it was opposition schools (Ho.Ho. Hilarious.) Maybe we missed a few, because I know we bypassed a huge portion of the first chapter, but I was getting rather frantic, hitting the magic shop for whatever scrolls I could get.Normally, though, they should be far more common than 1 in 11 years of play, and frankly, this is something that is impossible to legislate in the game rules, since it is so specific to individual DMs and their concept of the magic level in their campaigns.
Was this some low-magic campaign, where the wizard class had strict pre-requisites, or social stigma? Were most of the arcane opposition sorcerors and adepts? It seems to me, that if the party are fighting wizard NPCs, that each such NPC they defeat should own at least one spellbook, and that it has to be kept somewhere. .
That was 11 years, 9 DMs, 2 continents and only one low magic campaign.
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That was 11 years, 9 DMs, 2 continents and only one low magic campaign....3. How many captured spellbooks is a wizard likely to find, because I have seen a grand total of 1 in 11 years...and that was in a organised play module.
Really? Ouch.
I admit that in Shackled City, it took me until level 5 to find my first kill-trophy, and then, half of it was opposition schools (Ho.Ho. Hilarious.) Maybe we missed a few, because I know we bypassed a huge portion of the first chapter, but I was getting rather frantic, hitting the magic shop for whatever scrolls I could get.Normally, though, they should be far more common than 1 in 11 years of play, and frankly, this is something that is impossible to legislate in the game rules, since it is so specific to individual DMs and their concept of the magic level in their campaigns.
Was this some low-magic campaign, where the wizard class had strict pre-requisites, or social stigma? Were most of the arcane opposition sorcerors and adepts? It seems to me, that if the party are fighting wizard NPCs, that each such NPC they defeat should own at least one spellbook, and that it has to be kept somewhere. .
Then I have to ask during all these campaigns how often did you fight NPC wizards? I mean was every spell caster a sorcerer or bard?