I've discovered that the rules left me confused as to the school powers:
Are they tied to the wizard level or the caster level.
They are mentioned in the class and class progress table for the wizard, which hints to the interpretation "wizard level".
But if you look at the specialist school, the school abilities are listed with a connection to "caster level".
On the other hand, if you look at the specialist bonus ability, it is unclear, what level is meant. Often the construct "at Xth level this bonus increases" ...
The bonus spells granted for specialist schools however are tied to the wizard level (pg. 194): "Whenever a wizard attains the listed
level, he can choose one spell from his school to prepare every
day as a bonus spell."
This should be a bit more unified. I'd suggest using the wizard level and not the caster level to give a stronger reason NOT to take a prestige Class, but a wizard class level. Also this streamlining seems more logical to me.
I agree with this. It's not only confusing, there is a real potential to abuse the "caster level" language.
It should be tied to Wizard level. This will be clarified.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think it should be left to caster level. You're already getting cut out of future abilities when you switch to a prestige class. I understand maintaining interest in Wizard throughout all levels--I think the higher level abilities do that just fine. If you create/maintain this link, then many of these abilities will become useless to prestige pursuing classes.
generally other classes have general issues. They don'T get class-specific benefits when advancing in other classes (Prestigeclasses) - instead they gain the benefits of the Prestige Class. Can't see why the wizards should be handled differently here.
generally other classes have general issues. They don'T get class-specific benefits when advancing in other classes (Prestigeclasses) - instead they gain the benefits of the Prestige Class. Can't see why the wizards should be handled differently here.
Because the majority of abilities you gain from a Prestige Class either aren't level based, or factor in your total caster level into the effect of the power. The premise is sound--you take a new class, your benefits are from that class, not your previous one. But tying level effect for the school abilities to Wizard level only is like saying your have to choose a new class of spellcasting when you choose a new spellcasting class.
You don't stop being a specialist when you choose a Prestige Class.
You don't stop being a specialist when you choose a Prestige Class. [/But you also don't further your specialization, but take on a different path.
In our group we, for example, have an Ultimate Magus. He widens his focus and at the same time specializes? A bit hard to explain, I find - and unfair, too.
You don't stop being a specialist when you choose a Prestige Class. [/But you also don't further your specialization, but take on a different path.
In our group we, for example, have an Ultimate Magus. He widens his focus and at the same time specializes? A bit hard to explain, I find - and unfair, too.
My understanding was that, even as an Ultimate Magus, you wouldn't regain the schools you lost as a Specialist Wizard. Perhaps that would only apply to the preparation class, but the rule would be the same. Same rules go for Incantatrix, Master Specialist, Spellsword, etc.
You don't stop being a specialist when you choose a Prestige Class. [/I agree, its not like you regain access to your forbidden schools. And the point of specializing is that you gain some power in your chosen school by giving something up. Regaredless of whether I am taking a prestige class or going straight wizard, I'm still giving up something. Not giving the wizard bonus spells when they prestige class is just handicapping them unnecessarily. I agree that the other specialist powers, like the evokers energy ray and wall of energy abilities, should be available only if you take wizard levels. If you take away the bonus spells your actually weakening the wizard from the 3.5 version. How is that balanced?
I actually meant the reverse. You have the powers already. You shouldn't get the bonus spells that arrive at higher levels. You should see your previously acquired powers keep scaling, however--you earned them already.
|
I couldn't agree more.
I actually meant the reverse. You have the powers already. You shouldn't get the bonus spells that arrive at higher levels. You should see your previously acquired powers keep scaling, however--you earned them already.
I couldn't disagree more. If you take a prestige class and then lose your bonus spells, then the pathfinder wizard is worse than the core one!
While the wizard certainly doesn't need _more_ power in pathfinder, I think taking away every prestige wizard's bonus spells is a bit big of a drop.
Edit: A friend of mine suggested, however, that it might be an appropriate penalty for the Universalist -- Specialists can be good at their school and at a prestige class, while universalists can't do everything better and take another class too.
I'd like to see them tied to caster level as well. The abilities are not so game breaking that it would really matter, and it would futher help the multiclassing of Sorc and Wizard (as suggested by the Arcane bloodline).
Bloodlines, Specialties and Domains should all scale with caster level ...
I agree. Multiclassing for PrCs takes a big enough bite out of caster level to make such characters weaker casters than their single-classed peers. Adding to caster level should bring all the goodies that go with it, since you've given up all those high-level slots and the capstone abilities by taking the PrC.
I can see the effectiveness of powers you've already gotten increasing with caster level. However, access to the higher level ones should be based entirely upon class level and not caster level. And that should include bonus spells for bloodlines and spell-like abilities for domains.
Characters who multiclass should not get a free ride up the powers just because they're taking a prestige class that increases caster level. That was a mistake inherent in 3.5 that needs to be corrected in Pathfinder.
I can see the effectiveness of powers you've already gotten increasing with caster level. However, access to the higher level ones should be based entirely upon class level and not caster level. And that should include bonus spells for bloodlines and spell-like abilities for domains.
Characters who multiclass should not get a free ride up the powers just because they're taking a prestige class that increases caster level. That was a mistake inherent in 3.5 that needs to be corrected in Pathfinder.
A specialist wizard, for example, would be a few spells short of another of his caster level. A generalist, too for that matter. That's too much of a nerf, IMHO, though the abilities gained at 8th and 20th shouldn't be available.
I can see limiting bonded object enchantment, etc., but taking away a specialist's extra spells from specializing, after he's already done so, makes for a weak caster.
A specialist wizard, for example, would be a few spells short of another of his caster level. A generalist, too for that matter. That's too much of a nerf, IMHO, though the abilities gained at 8th and 20th shouldn't be available.I can see limiting bonded object enchantment, etc., but taking away a specialist's extra spells from specializing, after he's already done so, makes for a weak caster.
That's the price you pay for multi-classing away from being a specialist... inability to advance further as a specialist. Seems appropriate to me.
That's the price you pay for multi-classing away from being a specialist... inability to advance further as a specialist. Seems appropriate to me.
A specialist wizard, for example, would be a few spells short of another of his caster level. A generalist, too for that matter. That's too much of a nerf, IMHO, though the abilities gained at 8th and 20th shouldn't be available.I can see limiting bonded object enchantment, etc., but taking away a specialist's extra spells from specializing, after he's already done so, makes for a weak caster.
Even the generalist is a specialist in PF. If you get "+1 caster level in an existing class," in a PrC, it should apply to your spells per day, including those from your school, or lack thereof. That merely keeps you on par with a straight caster of 2-4 levels below yours, depending on the PrC. You already lose any other bonuses the standard class gets, and that's enough of a penalty.
The strength of multiclassed PrCs is a touch of versatility and some cool features, but spellcasting characters need a decent roster to get through the day. The Dragon Disciple comes to mind, now more fun to play, and worth playing because it gets to advance in spell levels.
I made quite a scene on the Arcane Trickster thread, since I've played it at high level, and found it underwhelming. The concept is cooler than the real thing, mechanically. It's a rog/wiz who isn't enough of either to be effective at 20th level. Not nearly skilled enough to use ranged legerdemain reliably, and only able to cast spells on party members or anything without SR. The sneak attack spells either missed altogether, or had little effect when they did hit, due to the low caster level vs. saves and SR.
I'm all for PrCs, multiclassing, etc., letting players make the characters that they want to play. In my experience, the min/max players who want to abuse rules are easily dealt with by simply asking them why the character would even know about the next splat-book class they want to "dip," let alone why it makes sense. That, or simple house limits on multiclassing/PrCs.
I doubt I changed your mind, but PrCs have their own inherent weaknesses. I just think they should get the spells they're trained for, since they're weak casters already.
That's the price you pay for multi-classing away from being a specialist... inability to advance further as a specialist. Seems appropriate to me.
Really? Because it doesn't feel appropriate to me that an Evoker that chooses to enter the Master Specialist prestige class isn't a specialist any more. Or an Illusionist that enters the Shadowcraft Mage prestige class. Or an Abjurer that takes levels in Abjurant Champion.
There are an awful lot of specialist-focused wizard prestige classes. Enough that, IMO, bonus spells and the variables of specialist school powers should be based on caster level. Earning the specialist school powers should still be based on your level in Wizard, but once you've earned a power, your caster level should determine how strong it is. And not allowing Wizards to continue to get bonus spells deals a nearly crippling blow to any but the nigh-broken spellcaster PrCs.
Well put, Zurai.
I'd take away the 8th and 20th level abilities, the wizard feats and improvement of your familiar/bonded object, which can only be gained through wizard levels.
The first level abilities should scale with level, and the bonus spells should go by caster level. They're already a nerf from 3.5, acceptable due to the other goodies single-classed wizards get.
Multiclassing alone guarantees the character will never out-cast a wizard of his level. A 20th level wizard gets 4 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells per day, minimum. That's good enough to smoke a multiclasser, right there.
That's the price you pay for multi-classing away from being a specialist... inability to advance further as a specialist. Seems appropriate to me.Really? Because it doesn't feel appropriate to me that an Evoker that chooses to enter the Master Specialist prestige class isn't a specialist any more. Or an Illusionist that enters the Shadowcraft Mage prestige class. Or an Abjurer that takes levels in Abjurant Champion.
There are an awful lot of specialist-focused wizard prestige classes. Enough that, IMO, bonus spells and the variables of specialist school powers should be based on caster level. Earning the specialist school powers should still be based on your level in Wizard, but once you've earned a power, your caster level should determine how strong it is. And not allowing Wizards to continue to get bonus spells deals a nearly crippling blow to any but the nigh-broken spellcaster PrCs.
Presumably, those specialist-oriented prestige classes would include specialist-appropriate abilities to further the specialty. But shifting focus away from the specialty into something like eldritch knight or blood magus should come with an appropriate loss of specialty focus - replaced by whatever idea the prestige class is developed around.
PF has to make sure that the strategy of pursuing a prestige class isn't a dominant strategy over staying a single-class specialist and that means giving up potential powers. In 3.5, there was little reason to remain a wizard compared to most prestige classes because the bonus feats were generally made up for in prestige class perks and your specialist bonuses continued with the prestige class's increase in caster level. For sorcerers, unless you had a real familiar fetish, there was almost no reason to remain a single-classed sorcerer. For clerics, if turning wasn't an important aspect the campaign, you jumped for prestige classes because you still got your domain spells through increasing caster level.
There were too many things tied to caster level and not class level. PF should try not to make the same mistake.
PF has to make sure that the strategy of pursuing a prestige class isn't a dominant strategy over staying a single-class specialist and that means giving up potential powers.
It isn't. Losing caster levels hurts any caster.
In 3.5, there was little reason to remain a wizard compared to most prestige classes because the bonus feats were generally made up for in prestige class perks and your specialist bonuses continued with the prestige class's increase in caster level. For sorcerers, unless you had a real familiar fetish, there was almost no reason to remain a single-classed sorcerer.
Sorcerer works best as a single class, in my considerable experience playing them.
For clerics, if turning wasn't an important aspect the campaign, you jumped for prestige classes because you still got your domain spells through increasing caster level.
There were...
And you still weren't as good a cleric as a single-classed one.
PF has to make sure that the strategy of pursuing a prestige class isn't a dominant strategy over staying a single-class specialist and that means giving up potential powers.
It isn't. Losing caster levels hurts any caster.
<snip>
Sorcerer works best as a single class, in my considerable experience playing them.
<snip>
And you still weren't as good a cleric as a single-classed one.
Losing caster levels hurt, but considering there were plenty of prestige classes with full caster advancement it was easy to get all the prestige benefits without losing anything significant, particularly for clerics who didn't pursue the turning and sorcerers who didn't want to be encumbered by a familiar.
Another thing is that you don't "stop being a specialist" when you prestige class out of basic Wizard. You're still restricted from using your prohibited schools, which becomes a stronger and stronger penalty as your caster level and spell levels allowed increase. If the counterpart to that, your specialist school powers, halt the instant you stop taking levels in Wizard, then that creates an imbalance in the rules. Penalties from a base class should not continue to accrue if bonuses from the base class do not.
Another thing is that you don't "stop being a specialist" when you prestige class out of basic Wizard. You're still restricted from using your prohibited schools, which becomes a stronger and stronger penalty as your caster level and spell levels allowed increase. If the counterpart to that, your specialist school powers, halt the instant you stop taking levels in Wizard, then that creates an imbalance in the rules. Penalties from a base class should not continue to accrue if bonuses from the base class do not.
Unless those penalties are considered to sustain the bonuses you have and still have from your specialist levels...
Losing caster levels hurt, but considering there were plenty of prestige classes with full caster advancement it was easy to get all the prestige benefits without losing anything significant, particularly for clerics who didn't pursue the turning and sorcerers who didn't want to be encumbered by a familiar.
We're (at least I'm) not talking about splat-book classes that give away the store. The PF PrCs that multiclass gain a level of spellcaster at whatever levels, and that includes spells per day; "an increased effective level of spellcasting," which would include all the spells (and nothing else) from the class.
I'll stick to that. Spells are spells, not supernatural abilities or feats or familiars. Your effective caster level is already lowered. Reducing the number per day by denying spells gained per level is a further reduction of that level.
I think the Mystic Theurge needs a revisit if Domains and School Powers are cut off from caster level.
As Jason put it, the MT's balancing point was the spell slots gained... of which he now loses a whole bunch moving from 3.5 to Pathfinder, since he loses Domains and School slots (they are now tied to class level instead of caster level).
*Edit*
Just to be clear, I'd prefer if the MT got more specific abilities, making him more unique than just picking up stuff from his entry classes.
It makes it easier to balance with other entry classes too (Druid, losing animal companion or domain; Sorcerer losing bloodlines; Bard losing musical performances).
If the MT has it's own abilities, you don't end up worrying about what to advance in every class that could potentially be used to enter the MT.
Unless those penalties are considered to sustain the bonuses you have and still have from your specialist levels...
If they're "sustaining" a static bonus, the corresponding penalties should be static as well.
Unless those penalties are considered to sustain the bonuses you have and still have from your specialist levels...If they're "sustaining" a static bonus, the corresponding penalties should be static as well.
But it doesn't make any sense to be able to cast higher-level spells from a school if you can't master the lower level ones.
But it doesn't make any sense to be able to cast higher-level spells from a school if you can't master the lower level ones.Unless those penalties are considered to sustain the bonuses you have and still have from your specialist levels...If they're "sustaining" a static bonus, the corresponding penalties should be static as well.
And it doesn't make any sense that you stop being a specialist because you're now a Master Specialist, either.
And it doesn't make any sense that you stop being a specialist because you're now a Master Specialist, either.
To be fair, Pathfinder can't really be blamed for how a specific 3rd party prestige class interacts poorly with their rules.
To be fair, Pathfinder can't really be blamed for how a specific 3rd party prestige class interacts poorly with their rules.
They can when it's a general case, or when it's a very large number of 3rd party prestige classes. Both of which apply here.
To be fair, Pathfinder can't really be blamed for how a specific 3rd party prestige class interacts poorly with their rules.They can when it's a general case, or when it's a very large number of 3rd party prestige classes. Both of which apply here.
I wouldn't say so. What I would expect is that if Paizo could rewrite the prestige classes, they would rewrite them to include continuation of the specialization. And I would expect any decent DM, when rewriting the prestige class to be PF-compliant, to include advancing in the specialty.
But for prestige classes that advance caster levels but do not have a specialist hook to them, I would expect them to not include advancement in any specialist abilities.
I would expect them to not include advancement in any specialist abilities.
Then they need to also stop advancing specialist penalties.
Also, "Just house rule it!" is an absolutely lousy response during a pre-release beta test.
I would expect them to not include advancement in any specialist abilities.Then they need to also stop advancing specialist penalties.
Also, "Just house rule it!" is an absolutely lousy response during a pre-release beta test.
I didn't say anything about house ruling. But if you're going to be using non-SRD prestige classes, you can't expect Paizo to do your conversion work for you as part of their publication. They haven't got the rights to do it.
And no, I wouldn't consider continuing to be barred from a school in return for your bonus spells as an advancing penalty. It's the same penalty. In order to get bonus spells, a whole school of spells is off limits. That there are additional spells of a level you hadn't been able to cast before is incidental.
Looks like I'll be houseruling that PrCs get the spells they're entitled to.
Who wants to play a multiclassed spellcaster who gets his bonus spells shut off for doing it?
If there are people who thought that giving level-appropriate spells to a specialist multiclassed character is overpowered, I haven't met them, or seen it ruin a game.
The PrC classes so far aren't overpowered. WHo thinks they are?
Looks like I'll be houseruling that PrCs get the spells they're entitled to.
Who wants to play a multiclassed spellcaster who gets his bonus spells shut off for doing it?
If there are people who thought that giving level-appropriate spells to a specialist multiclassed character is overpowered, I haven't met them, or seen it ruin a game.
The PrC classes so far aren't overpowered. WHo thinks they are?
It's less a question of PrCs being too powerful and more a question of ensuring there's a built in reason to keep advancing in the base class rather than taking a PrC at the first opportunity. PrCs can be pretty interesting, but there should opportunity costs to taking them... aside from losing familiar advancement and turning undead.
Moving things like domain spells and specialist bonus spells to class level features rather than caster level features is a step in that direction.
It's less a question of PrCs being too powerful and more a question of ensuring there's a built in reason to keep advancing in the base class rather than taking a PrC at the first opportunity. PrCs can be pretty interesting, but there should opportunity costs to taking them... aside from losing familiar advancement and turning undead.Moving things like domain spells and specialist bonus spells to class level features rather than caster level features is a step in that direction.
The PF classes do this with good Su abilites, a capstone ability, and the fact that with significantly more high level spells, they are quite powerful.
Having 4 9th level spells per day (base, of course) compared to 1 or 2 is quite an advantage in itself. At high levels, lacking all that for the sake of versatility is penalty enough when it comes to who's got the magic mojo. A single big spell does much more in a round than some extra hit points or skills can counter, IMHO.
Only a 20th level caster gets all that, along with a strong capstone a multiclasser or PrC will never see. That's enough motivation to stay single-classed; you're uber! Mr. Theurge will be hard-pressed to compete.
BTW, is PF going with domain spells for clerics like 3.x, or the Su and Sp abilities? Last I knew, it was still up in the air.
@Dave Young
I think Bill was talking about standard full caster PrCs. They give up nothing and gain a bunch of abilities. Unlike the Mystic Theurge... who's main bonus was the core class spells.
The Mystic Theurge is a class in itself due to the combined spellcasting, and has to be looked at differently (possibly from the PrC end, rather than the core class end).
The standard spellcasting PrC won't worry too much as long as it's getting something decent in replacement.
Oopsie. My bad! :P
Moving things like domain spells and specialist bonus spells to class level features rather than caster level features is a step in that direction.
No, it's a step too far in that direction. With having them be purely base class level based, the disincentives are too strong to have any but the most broken caster PrCs be viable. Weaker but flavorful PrCs such as Master Specialist or Mage of the Arcane Order or Force Missile Mage, etc, just lose waaaaaaay too much to make them even remotely viable.