aya_aschmahr's page

Meh. I think I've also critizized the claws as a class feature, but for very different reasons.

And the thread displays most of the reasons. It's not about the claws. The claws themselves are ridicolous, because Melee Combat is something you probably won't do much with the Sorcerer. AC shoudl keep you from doing it.

The problem I see is, that the claws are not a defining feature for the sorcerer itself. They don't force her to behave in certain ways - they just open combinations for later play. And there the claws also are not important by themselves but as means for more attacks it seems. (Though at the moment I fail to see how exactly that is going to work and help and be a big advantage).

I wouldn't say the claws themselves are too pwoerful or too weak - they are just wrong and make you end up in a dead end.

ah - for a moment there I was ... afraid. I don't think the Sorcerer should become an arcane melee specialist. I think that idea in itself is cool, but indeed it might be too imbalancing. I've seen things like that in our normal D&D 3.5 group, where one player plays a duskblade.

No, if you give the sorcerer melee abilities he shouldn't be able to use them for long - long enough to get out of it again sounds fine by me.

and the general course? The sorcerer doesn't need additional powers either, I think. Some of the bloodline powers present however should be exchanged to allow a more "active" design. That's the only thing that IMO needs to ne done. It's cool when you can resist that energy type or reduce that damage, but it's a lot cooler, when you can actually do stuff.
And when the stuff you do actually mirrors your bloodline.

Okay, I will try to make clear, what I think, is good and what is bad with specific examples. I will try to pick a "bad" and "good" bloodline. This is not a rating per-se, just in terms of "compelling" a way of action.

"Bad" design: Abyssal blood line (pg. 43):

Claws - with low attack progression and no adequate defense, this kind of attack will arely be used.
Good about the claws are the modifications with time so that they can overcome DR or make a bit more damage.
Demon Resistance - passive. No way of action
Strength of the Abyss - neat to boost the effect of the claws. By far not enough to matter and still doesn't solve the other side: Inadequate defenses and "tanking". "Nice try", I'd say.
Added Summonings - now here I can actually see some suggestion why you would want to apply certain strategies. Level 15? Too late, I'd say.
Demonic might - passive. No way of action suggested.

Overall there are too few options wich actually compel a way of action and those that do (claws, strength) push you into a direction, that you cannot actually go as a sorcerer. Melee just isn't the way.

Suggestion: Maybe add an attack bonus to the demon claw or: Invent a "demon form" which the sorcerer can hold for a few rounds (maybe level rounds) which will give him some AC enhancement and / or temporary hit points along with the attack - but it might hinder his casting.

"Better" design: Infernal bloodline (pg. 47):

Corrupting Touch - at will touch attack (no save) which also eases enchantment stuff (though maybe not best for THIS bloodline, rather for the Fey bloodline, but okay). Nice because: It can really easy your life and makes using enchantment effects more effective, thus suggeting a way of action.
Infernal Resistances - passive. No way of action suggested
Hellfire - a rather effective attack that deals some damage
On Dark wings - flight. Neat!
Power of the pit - mostly passive.

I deliberately chose Infernal and Abyssal Bloodline, as you might guess. This design is better, because the active actions actually are better usable. You still have the problem of getting into melee, if you want to use them, but they seem more like "life savers" in a tight spot and they are designed in ways that they will likely stay relevant over the levels.

General Suggestions:
- Maybe create a power that adds "vile" damage (or something else) to fire spells, making it more likely (and useful) to use them. Maybe around level 9 instead of a direct attack power. Would be fitting for Infernal or Abyssal bloodlines.

Actually a "good" design in this way of viewing and "rating" powers is the 3rd level Arcane bloodline power "Metamagic Adept", because it makes it more likely for a sorcerer to use metamagics. It proposes a way of action.

I hope I managed to make it clear, that I am not talking about an increase of power in the bloodlines, but rather about making them more a "center" of the character.

And again: Maybe my perception of the bloodlines is incorrect?

Wrath wrote:

A Sorceror with claw attacks can become a very good mage hunter though.

You're kidding, right?

I have to agree with Lehmuska here. It will be very hard for a sorcerer to actually matter when it comes to melee. The claws are a bad example and I think a very bad choice, when it comes to Bloodline powers. The limiting factors are the bad attack progression of a sorcerer compared with his lack of "tanking". The sorcerer isn't meant for this. If he were to actually use a power like that, the power would have to be designed in a way, that she doesn't fail all over the place (I am aware, I am exaggerating here a bit).

That's what my suggestions were all about: Making sure the bloodline matters.

Wrath wrote:

Imagine a sorceror that can fly, cast enlarge or bull's strength, improved invis and bear's endurance. Not only do they get to buff the party this way but they themsleves become pretty damn impressive in combat against low AC targets like enemy casters or skirmishers.

I'd use a rogue for hunting down enemy mages and low AC targets. If these do exist(!). I'd say the buffing should be the cleric's realm. And I'd say either of them does that a lot better than a sorcerer.

Besides: Melee range is always a problem. You don't wanna go there as a sorcerer, because you have too little protection to actually take this kind of course. This is where the bloodline powers reach too short.

OR if you don't want to act the sorcerer in such ways, there simply shouldn't be such a bloodline power, that compels such a way of action. If you get some kind of power, especially if this power should be "defining" in some way for the class or character, you want to use it and you don't want to be punished for using it.
Now, try going into melee with a sorcerer. I think I can predict the outcome under usual circumstances.

Even nuking deals more damage than claws after 1st level. [...] Claws fail when compared to nuking, and nuking fails when compared to save or suck spells.

Let's not go into this direction of a being stronger than Y and Y stronger than Z. The point isn't which way of attack is strong. It is, what course of action is suggested by a certain design. Do the powers support that way of action or do they contradict it? Or do they not matter at all? There is some kind of connection with each of these issues, just the focus is a lot different.

The trick here, I believe, is to think outside the normal constraints of what a sorceror was thought of (another version of the wizard). Your bloodline allows you to focus on what you want to be good at.

That is indeed the trick. This is exactly my point - and you are more or less both right here IMO: You don't use wands and scrolls for blasting because of Spell Resistance. If blasting fails or not? Is not important here. (IMHO!)

Maybe my perception of the goal of bloodlines is wrong. I'm quite eager to hear from an official source, what the bloodlines SHOULD be and why they are designed the way they are.

I admit, I don't like the blasting focus of the sorcerer. And being ONLY a weapons platform is a bit bleak (especially if a sorcerer does NOT go that way) - and his advantage in spells per day isn't that great compared to a specialist wizard.

However, I agree: the casting progression doesn't need to be touched.

My point also was not to increase the power of the level 1 powers, because they are too weak overall, but rather, because they don't matter later on. And if that happens, their features are not defining for a sorcerer. And that is sad, because the bloodline represents the source of a sorcerers power.

I also don't think, that it really matters, if a sorcerer never runs out of spells because 1d6+10 (at level 20) for a blast is ridicolous. It won't matter, EVEN as an "at will" power. At least I have seen few mid- to high-level fights in which these few hit points such a power could have dealt, would have made a difference. On the way to the big boss, indeed, an at-will power might win a round or two, but I've also not experienced such numbers to be relevant: We're skimming through Maur Castle and have been half way through Age of Worms (with different groups) and the Sorcerer simply did not need to act, when the enemies were too weak, thus saving his spells. Not even our wizards did run out of spells before the end-fight.

The better way would be, to increase the impact of such powers, so that they actually would matter and display the effect of the bloodline of the sorcerer and at the same time limit their uses in some way.

The higher level powers of course are better in that regard, but often these powers are passive (damage reductions, energy resistances, even invisibility, though that is one of the better features). They don't serve well as a showcase or an impact on the sorcerers way of behaviour, action or spell choice.

The focus of improvements of the bloodlines should really be to increase the impact, to make them more defining, not to increase the power. In some cases one might lead to the other, but that's really not the point.

You don't stop being a specialist when you choose a Prestige Class. [/

Quote:

But you also don't further your specialization, but take on a different path.

In our group we, for example, have an Ultimate Magus. He widens his focus and at the same time specializes? A bit hard to explain, I find - and unfair, too.

generally other classes have general issues. They don'T get class-specific benefits when advancing in other classes (Prestigeclasses) - instead they gain the benefits of the Prestige Class. Can't see why the wizards should be handled differently here.

There are quite a lot (and at least one very heavy) discussions about sorcerers vs. wizard and the casting progression - balancing the sorcerer against the wizard.

I don't think the casting progression needs much work. The sorcerer might be slightly inferior or superior in this specific area, but I don't really think the differences are great.

However what bugs me is, that the sorcerer compared to the wizard is such a "idiot savant". He can cast spells. Great. No need to prepare. He's not devoted to this stuff. Defining for the sorcerer, compared to the wizard, apart from being able to cast somewhat more spells, though, are the bloodlines. This is what gives him his powers. It should have a high impact for him.

The bloodlines are very neat, but as I percieve them ingame so far, not defining enough. The low level powers mostly become irrelevant quickly (dealing 1d6+1/2 sorcerer caster level damage? Nice at level 1. But at level 10? Or being able to do 2 melee attacks with claws? With low attack progression? Would only make some more sense if you cross class into some high-attack-power class, but then you don't benefit from the higher bloodline effects.)

So I am not yet convinced the bloodlines (which are a great idea) play the role they should play. They should IMO be a lot more relevant to a sorcerer. At the moment the bloodline is an addon to the sorcerer, but the way they are described it feels to me a bit more like the Sorcerer should be built around his bloodline.

To further this, bloodlines could have effects on how a sorcerer chooses his spells or action in combat or out of combat. The sorcerer should be more compelled to use his bloodline powers. At the moment some of the defining "active" features are hard to use at later levels, because their effectiveness does not increase (see above) and because they have little impact on the overall behaviour and tactics of a sorcerer. Some seem bad choices even (Abyssal Bloodline claws? See below.)

For exmaple: An elemental bloodline might deal additional damage with spells of some specific energy (like fire) or raise the save DC for such spells or the caster level.
The claws for the abyssal bloodline are nice, but it would be better and more defining if such a sorcerer would be actually compelled to use this class feature: Give the claws additional attack bonus with time (maybe so that using comes a bit closer to medium attack progression) along with something that protects the sorcerer a bit, when forced to fight like that (who goes into a melee, even with 2 claw attacks, with low hit points AND armor class?).

I don't have it all worked through yet, but I think the examples above explain what I mean?

Another thing that bugs me is, that a sorcerer is such an "idiot savant" compared to the wizard. The wizard gets 2+Int skill points, just like the sorcerer, but oh look: The wizard uses Int for casting, too. So he has more skill points.
The greater choices in skill selection AND spells (along with the "un-staggered" progress in gaining spells) are not yet compensated by the sorcerers bloodlines and more spells.

I know you're all talking about the limited spells of the sorcerer, but there is one one more thing we should keep in mind. There is another weakness to the sorcerer, that just might not be as apparent:

The wizard uses intelligence for skills. The sorcerer uses charisma.

And both get 2+Int modifier skill points. If you think about an imbalance of the sorcerer compared to the wizard and balancing each two against each other, not only the "staggered" casting should be considered, but also their abilities away from casting. And here the sorcerers lack.

If I were to propose some kind of balancing for sorcerers it would not as much be "unstaggering" the casting but rather up their skill points to 4+int and add some skills to their in-class-skills.

I've discovered that the rules left me confused as to the school powers:
Are they tied to the wizard level or the caster level.

They are mentioned in the class and class progress table for the wizard, which hints to the interpretation "wizard level".

But if you look at the specialist school, the school abilities are listed with a connection to "caster level".

On the other hand, if you look at the specialist bonus ability, it is unclear, what level is meant. Often the construct "at Xth level this bonus increases" ...

The bonus spells granted for specialist schools however are tied to the wizard level (pg. 194): "Whenever a wizard attains the listed
level, he can choose one spell from his school to prepare every
day as a bonus spell."

This should be a bit more unified. I'd suggest using the wizard level and not the caster level to give a stronger reason NOT to take a prestige Class, but a wizard class level. Also this streamlining seems more logical to me.

wizards, clerics and druids devote themselves to their practices

wizards and clerics are already punished for this by having just mere 2 kills + int modifier

wizards, clerics and druids NEED to memorize what spells they would use

sorceres and bards does not, this is rawpower

I don't agree to your opinion: Wizards indeed get just 2 skills+int, but oh look: Int governs spellcasting AND skills. Not that much of a sacrifice then. Better to look at the actual average Skill points.

The sorcerer by the way also gets just 2 skills+int. Their bloodlines are neat (really! Really neat!), but it would be a bit nicer if they'd actually get a bump compared to the wizards. Okay, a wizards needs to memorize, but actually the sorcerer is a lot more focused on his ability to cast spells than the wizard. I'd call this "devotion".