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For those of us who use Celsius exclusively it's pretty painful to understand rules that use Fahrenheit — I don't know what -40°F or 140°F means, so I have to go find a program or website to convert for me. It's be really nice (and minimal impact) to put °C forms in parenthesis for weather, Endure Elements, and whatever other little tidbits of the rules refer to them.
<cue inevitable thread about converting rest of the system to metric/>
I have this problem too, though i pretty much just guestimate based on 25c is about 77f. so if it's 140f, it's really, really hot. as in twice as hot. so around 50c (it's actually 60, but when it get's that hot do you really care?). i know it's not accurate, but it suffices.
and on that note, I want 1.524m steps, not 5ft steps!
For those of us who use Celsius exclusively it's pretty painful to understand rules that use Fahrenheit — I don't know what -40°F or 140°F means, so I have to go find a program or website to convert for me. It's be really nice (and minimal impact) to put °C forms in parenthesis for weather, Endure Elements, and whatever other little tidbits of the rules refer to them.
<cue inevitable thread about converting rest of the system to metric/>
Wouldn't it make more sense for the USA to just convert to metric?
I'm proud of my country (at least I might be in a week), but seriously. Nothing is more unamerican in spirit than the imperial system, why are we still using it? (partly facetious)
It might be easier- but it's not really in the power of Paizo to force an entire country to switch from one system of measurement to another :)
While I'm in the US, I'm in favor of the game bein more international friendly as well. Cheers to them adding the alternate temp system :)
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And don't forget Kelvin! (just kidding)
Also the rules for temperature and its effects is a little wonky too. If you go by D&D rules, you'd die almost immediately in 100 °C. Someone forgot about saunas during the development.
You also should consider the humidity, since it weights a real factor in heat. With a humidity of only 10%, a human with heavy clothing is able to withstand a temperature of about 200 °C or 400 °F for a short period of time. With near 100% humidity the limit drops to a third. (Source: Google it.)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Actually, all metric nations should be using Kelvin since it's based on an absolute constant, whereas Celsius is completely relative and means nothing to non-earthlings.
Why should any aliens care what temperature an odd chemical compound freezes or boils under certain rather arbitrary assumptions regarding ambient pressure, ...?
I am no physicist, but Kelvin strikes me as no more or less arbitrary than Celsius. Sure, absolute 0 is absolute 0, but the scaling is just chosen at a constant that is relevant for us, but the Gas-Swimmers of Ganothrel might find it unbelievably far-fetched and clumsy.
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Why should any aliens care what temperature an odd chemical compound freezes or boils under certain rather arbitrary assumptions regarding ambient pressure, ...?I am no physicist, but Kelvin strikes me as no more or less arbitrary than Celsius. Sure, absolute 0 is absolute 0, but the scaling is just chosen at a constant that is relevant for us, but the Gas-Swimmers of Ganothrel might find it unbelievably far-fetched and clumsy.
Indeed, the size of a kelvin (which is the same as the size of a degree centigrade) is fixed by our enthusiasm for the number 100 and the properties of water.
That said, two fixed points of absolute zero and the triple point of water does have merit. The number of divisions between them is up for argument (273ish is the result of dividing freezing point to boiling point of water into 100).
Since the actual temperature range has no game mechanical effect, it's not as big an issue to me as the insistence on using feet and pounds, but I do think it's a shame that a game with international appeal insists on using a system of weights and measures clung to only by Myanmar, Liberia and the U.S. I have heard that in Germany they have an edition of D&D for which the 5-foot step is a 1.5-meter step. 1.5 meters is closer to 5 feet than the 2 meters used in d20 Star Wars, but 2 is a much more convenient number to work with, and there's little to be gained from trying to preserve accuracy from something that has no real world accuracy to begin with.
As an American, I have observed how people will get huffy and sullen if you ask them to work with a system they're not used to just because it's simpler to use. So, I'm not proposing that RPG companies should do their rules in metric by default. But I do think they should design with conversion to metric in mind. The weights of objects are at best approximations of real-world weights, rounded to the closest convenient numbers. Why not use number that would be convenient in both systems? Generally, I use these conversions:
1 kg = 2 lbs.
2 m = 5 ft.
2 km = 1 mi. (and for convenience I assume a mile is 5000 ft.)
Again, real-world equivalencies don't matter. What matters is whether the subjective correlative is about right.
At some point I plan to put out a version of the SRD that has everything converted to convenient metric measures.
That said, two fixed points of absolute zero and the triple point of water does have merit. The number of divisions between them is up for argument (273ish is the result of dividing freezing point to boiling point of water into 100).
Even that value is probably of no consequence to an alien living on a world where the high preassure puts water's boiling point at, well 239°C (not that would mean anything to them).
Celsius is completely relative and means nothing to non-earthlings.
Not now, but it will once we conquer their pitiful, deviant planets and terraform the heck out of them. THEN they will know what Celsius is all about. And they WILL have water. Whether they need it or not. Even if it's poison to them. POISON I TELL YOU!
...
I'm okay now.
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Good points, everyone.
Not now, but it will once we conquer their pitiful, deviant planets and terraform the heck out of them. THEN they will know what Celsius is all about. And they WILL have water. Whether they need it or not. Even if it's poison to them. POISON I TELL YOU!
That movie...Why the heck would aliens allergic to water invade EARTH!? That was lame.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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That movie...Why the heck would aliens allergic to water invade EARTH!? That was lame.
Well, because they had no idea the planet contained so much of the blasted stuff? I mean, it's not as if it covered a significant amount of the planetary surface, or... well... i don't know. Build up in some kind of clouds that are well visible from space?
Oh wait... er...
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But I actually prefer more archaic measurements in my RPGs - makes them feel more authentic. Bring back cubits!
And Firkins!
[mock indignation]I went out of my way and through a lot of effort (ok, well maybe an hour online while i was bored at work, but the point stands!) to learn what this is for these boards, the least all of you can do is come up with reasons for me to use it besides confusing barmaids by asking for firkins of Guinness.
[/mock indignation]
(fyi: the vast majority of bars won't give it to you.)
I like to use fathoms and furlongs. These are ambiguous enough to replicate the estimation that adventurers do when they see a 35'7" long corridor...
When it comes to the battlemap where exact distances are important, I either use the 1 square = 5 feet or 1 square = 1 meter. It effectively becomes a 3'3" step, but since monster with a 10 ft. reach are scaled to 6'7", who care? As long as everything is proportional.
Miles have a more medieval feel then kilometer, but then again, with its metric monetary system, the meter might as well be used as a reference "in game" in the D&D universe.
As for the OP, Fahrenheit also don't mean a thing for me. I constantly have to do the (Fahrenheit -32) divided by 2 = Celsius approximation...
'findel
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But I actually prefer more archaic measurements in my RPGs - makes them feel more authentic. Bring back cubits!And Firkins!
[mock indignation]
I went out of my way and through a lot of effort (ok, well maybe an hour online while i was bored at work, but the point stands!) to learn what this is for these boards, the least all of you can do is come up with reasons for me to use it besides confusing barmaids by asking for firkins of Guinness.
[/mock indignation](fyi: the vast majority of bars won't give it to you.)
I can't imagine why. :)
I vote for the league.
An abstract measurement which is the distance an average human can walk in an hour.
It parses actually mechanically really well, because you can just assume 100 m or 300 ft per minute, and then handwave into leagues on every hour.
I vote for the league.
An abstract measurement which is the distance an average human can walk in an hour.
It parses actually mechanically really well, because you can just assume 100 m or 300 ft per minute, and then handwave into leagues on every hour.
I agree, especially since overland movement does not have to be that precise.
I vote for the league.
... of Extraordinary Gentlemen?
(fyi: the vast majority of bars won't give it to you.)
Stop going to loser bars. :P
Since we're talking about weird units and D&D: I'm fine with either foot/mile or metres as the standard - I grew up with the metric system, but D&D taught me those "backward" units like inch and foot.
But the game world itself doesn't necessarily have to stick to one global standard. Sure, Taldor will retain the imperial units, and Cheliax will have something quite similar (but just different enough to show that they're not as backwards as taldor).
But other nations, on other continents, will have different systems: Alkenstar has the stone/pebble/grain system, which extends to things beyond firearms, Numeria has the metric system (or something quite like it), other countries have a mix of different systems (Varisia being foremost, with the Chelaxian population preferring the Chelish units, while the Varisians and Shoanti have older systems like cubit and dram).
For those of us who use Celsius exclusively it's pretty painful to understand rules that use Fahrenheit — I don't know what -40°F or 140°F means, so I have to go find a program or website to convert for me. It's be really nice (and minimal impact) to put °C forms in parenthesis for weather, Endure Elements, and whatever other little tidbits of the rules refer to them.
Yes please! I can intuitively understand feet, miles, pounds and many of the imperial measures just fine. I can never intuitively understand Farenheit though! Yes, I know the conversion formula and can recalculate the temperature into Celsius, but I cannot do this intuitively without calculation. The reason Farentheit and not feet etc. are the worst offender is that it is the one imperial unit which has not only a different progression, but also a different base 0. This makes it completely counterintuitive for those of us used to the metric system. Yes, the imperial system does have a fantasy charm to it and I do hope it is retained for that reason, but make an exception for the temperatures please!
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I can't imagine why. :)But I actually prefer more archaic measurements in my RPGs - makes them feel more authentic. Bring back cubits!And Firkins!
[mock indignation]
I went out of my way and through a lot of effort (ok, well maybe an hour online while i was bored at work, but the point stands!) to learn what this is for these boards, the least all of you can do is come up with reasons for me to use it besides confusing barmaids by asking for firkins of Guinness.
[/mock indignation](fyi: the vast majority of bars won't give it to you.)
Apparently it has something to do with not actually having the 10L containers to serve it in. or not legally being allowed to give 9 gallons of beer in one sitting to a college kid. depending if they use modern firkins or older firkins
(modern ones are a cylinder 10in in diamer and 10in deep)
(old ones are any container holding a fourth the amount as a barrel)
at first the guy at the bar laughed. then he saw how disappointed i was. on the upside i got a pitcher for happy-hour price after happy hour, which my friends enjoyed.
Also, I'm half tempted to conver to the FFF system, just to spread chaos and confusion everywhere someone asks for a measure of something.
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Since we're talking about weird units and D&D: I'm fine with either foot/mile or metres as the standard - I grew up with the metric system, but D&D taught me those "backward" units like inch and foot.
But the game world itself doesn't necessarily have to stick to one global standard. Sure, Taldor will retain the imperial units, and Cheliax will have something quite similar (but just different enough to show that they're not as backwards as taldor).
But other nations, on other continents, will have different systems: Alkenstar has the stone/pebble/grain system, which extends to things beyond firearms, Numeria has the metric system (or something quite like it), other countries have a mix of different systems (Varisia being foremost, with the Chelaxian population preferring the Chelish units, while the Varisians and Shoanti have older systems like cubit and dram).
i like how the orcs count... a "pot"
and how they 20's are always different (they count their fingers, and that is 20... it doesn't matter how many they have lost)
Creative Director
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If we can get the USA to switch to metrics as the baseline, then we can switch Pathfinder over. But until that happens, we can't really do that. Sort of comes with the package with materials produced in the USA these days. And since I and the other editors here at Paizo understand Fahrenheit but not so much Celsius (same goes for the rest of it all, like feet and miles and the like), that's pretty much how it's gotta be. Despite the fact that I do find the metric system to be a lot more intuitive and elegant.
If we can get the USA to switch to metrics as the baseline, then we can switch Pathfinder over. But until that happens, we can't really do that. Sort of comes with the package with materials produced in the USA these days. And since I and the other editors here at Paizo understand Fahrenheit but not so much Celsius (same goes for the rest of it all, like feet and miles and the like), that's pretty much how it's gotta be. Despite the fact that I do find the metric system to be a lot more intuitive and elegant.
Yes, but you could include both sets of temperatures - Celsius and Farenheit. The other imperial measures are fine, even quaint, in a fantasy game, but Farenheit are just terrible for us non-imperial subjects (:D). Unlike the other imperial units, Farenheit have both a different scale and a different base zero than Celsius. This makes them a real pain and truly counterintuitive for those of us used to metric measures.
Don't mock the USA's usage of the Imperial measurements. Never know when some crazy politician here will have imperial ambitions... O_o"
I would be all for the metric system (of course) but perhaps some thought can be put into conversion of the US system into the metric system, as to faciliate conversions. If you recalculate distances etc. precisely, you end up with very odd values ( 1 pound being .453kg, 1 mile 1.609 km, 1 foot .3048 m, and so on - and don´t get me started on converting Fahrenheit into Celsius - Degree Fahrenheit - 32 times 5/9 just gives me headaches, not degrees Celsius.)
I would convert 2 pounds into 1 kg, a 5-foot step into a 1 meter step, and so on.
And please don´t start giving other nations other measurement systems or calendars - that might be (pseudo-) realistic, but gives only more headaches....
Stefan
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Yes, but you could include both sets of temperatures - Celsius and Farenheit. The other imperial measures are fine, even quaint, in a fantasy game, but Farenheit are just terrible for us non-imperial subjects (:D). Unlike the other imperial units, Farenheit have both a different scale and a different base zero than Celsius. This makes them a real pain and truly counterintuitive for those of us used to metric measures.
Please do, I see a Farenheit measurement and my mind goes blank, I have to go back to cooking class to work it out. It would be really nice if there was both. I am happy with having all the other measurement in imperial, as Australia only changed to metric in my parent's lifetime, so they still regurarly refer to feet and inches and some of my old recipes use imperial weights.
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more info is good
sorry for my metric system (no imperial subject, not imperial measures in my country...)
since i do my own character pages in excell i always keep the height and weight of my chars and their equipment both in both measures
but aye by my own life i could not reason what the well would a farenheith translate
Okay, just an old pet peeve of mine:
The U.S. does not use the Imperial System, and the U.S. has never used the Imperial System. Ever. The Imperial System was invented in the 1820s as an attempt to create a rival to the metric system. Like a flesh golem, it was constructed of a bunch of old parts badly fitted together. It was established by the British Parliament in the British Empire in 1826, a full fifty years after the U.S. had declared independence. The United States never adopted it.
The American people continued to use the older, traditional English units which dated back to before the formation of the United Kingdom, not the newfangled, ridiculous, and jury-rigged "Imperial System". The U.S. government then adopted, by law, the metric system. That is, in fact, the only system the U.S. has ever adopted, legally. The American people then proceeded to spend the next hundred and forty years ignoring the ever-increasing efforts of the government to switch us from the old pre-UK units to the metric system.
Feet pose me no problems, but if you want to use meters at the gaming table, the conversion is very easy 5ft=1.5meters (this is close enough for gaming purposes). You cannot do this with Fahrenheit and Celsius, because not only is the scale different, but the base of 0 is different too! So you actually have to do a separate calculation for each and every temperature. For this reason, converting every imperial measure into a metric one and stating both would be a waste of space, but stating both Fahrenheit and Celsius would be a boon to those of us, who are used to Celsius only.
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I believe we do put both temperatures in the game, generally, but some times there's not enough room and we have to cut stuff to make things fit. Additional measurements are a GREAT victim to sacrifice in this case.
Even in metric countries, people tend to know and describe their height in feet and inches, even if they measure everything else in metres.
I substitute kilometres for miles on a 1:1 basis. I realise this is an inaccurate simplification, but for the purposes of the game, it usually doesn't matter. It's usually more relevant to describe distances between towns in terms of days travel rather than miles anyway.
I realise 100F is a hot day, because classrooms without aircon used to get a day off when the temperature reached 100F. But other than that, I'm clueless about Farenheight.
I realise that space (word-count) is at a premium, but in an adventure or rulebook in which you print "100F", how much blow-out would result in printing "100F (40C)", surely the increased word-count would be trivial compared to the benefit?
Another alternative would be to add "Temperature" and "Distance" as entries in the Glossary, along with some common conversions, so you don't need to provide conversions every time temperature or distance is mentioned in an adventure or elsewhere throughout the rules.
I'm also wondering the ratio of American to Foreign customers/subscribers? How many people would this benefit?
Another compromise is, if you ever produce a printable spell list as a web enhancement, do all measurements in squares rather than feet. It's easier to convert to meters from a neutral game mechanic than a specific measurement.
Never! I want actual distances, not something bogus like unit "squares". It's okay if it's optional, but using it exclusively basically says: This isn't supposed to be a roleplaying game any more, it's a board game. Now go and move your gaming piece three squares forward.
Might as well go and abolish the 1-2-1 rule, basically saying that if you walk diagonally to the road, your speed will miraculously increase by 41%, and that if you just rotate the grid by 45°, you can go faster all the time.
I believe we do put both temperatures in the game, generally, but some times there's not enough room and we have to cut stuff to make things fit. Additional measurements are a GREAT victim to sacrifice in this case.
Never seen it. Not once.
And I agree with the rest: Feet/metres are easy. kg/lbs isn't that bad, either (especially if you approximate 1 lb with 500g), and I can even get behind gallons and fluid ounces.
But Fahrenheit kills me. There's no way for anyone short of a fanatic, or a savant, to do that conversion in his head.
The world won't come crashing down if this doesn't happen, but it would be nice nonetheless.
Even in metric countries, people tend to know and describe their height in feet and inches, even if they measure everything else in metres.
Really? Never heard of that, and never seen it myself. And I live in a metric country.
I realise 100F is a hot day, because classrooms without aircon used to get a day off when the temperature reached 100F. But other than that, I'm clueless about Farenheight.
All I know is google tells me that's 37.777° in real temperature. :D
(...)
Why not use number that would be convenient in both systems? Generally, I use these conversions:1 kg = 2 lbs.
2 m = 5 ft.
2 km = 1 mi. (and for convenience I assume a mile is 5000 ft.)Again, real-world equivalencies don't matter. What matters is whether the subjective correlative is about right.
At some point I plan to put out a version of the SRD that has everything converted to convenient metric measures.
My group (in Germany) converts:
5 ft. = 1,5 m
or
3 ft. = 1 m (especially for longer distances)
it´s not very hard to convert and much more accurate, although when using a battlegrid we almost always use feet or squares. (So we sometimes have to use 3 scaling systems *sigh*)
how I do it is
Kilogram= 2.2 pounds= 1 kg is 4.5 pounds give or take
Kilometer= 1.5 miles
Meter=3 foot
Not 100% but close enuff
Oh on the subject of Celsius to Fahrenheit
Not fast but niffty formula
°F to °C........Deduct 32, then multiply by 5, then divide by 9
°C to °F........Multiply by 9, then divide by 5, then add 32
fun chart
°C -----°F......Description
100-----212.....Water boils
40------104.....Hot Bath
37------98.6....Body temperature
30------86......Beach weather
21------70......Room temperature
10------50......Cool Day
0-------32......Freezing point of water
-18------0......Very Cold Day
-40.....-40.....Extremely Cold Day (and the same number!)
another fun fact is is a lovely 32F here in southeast Kentucky.
Thats 0c for ya other folk
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fun chart
°C -----°F......Description
100-----212.....Water boils
40------104.....Hot Bath
37------98.6....Body temperature
30------86......Beach weather
21------70......Room temperature
10------50......Cool Day
0-------32......Freezing point of water
-18------0......Very Cold Day
-40.....-40.....Extremely Cold Day (and the same number!)
This chart is by far the most useful thing come up on this thread. With this you see the four most important temperatures.
0 °C, 10 °C, 20 °C, and 30 °C
30 °F, 50 °F, 70 °F, and 90 °F.
One thing I also have trouble with are large feet numbers, like with mountains. Saying "it's 12500 feet tall" takes me some time to understand *how* big it is .. that's, uh, 4000... 4166 meters or something.
And just for the reference: 1 lb = 0.4536 kg (453.6 g), 1 feet = 30.48 cm (0.3048 m), 1 mile = 1.604 km (1604 m) etc.
To echo most other posters on this thread:
PLEASE put the temperatures in Celsius as well as Farenheit!
Like many others, I can convert distance, weight, and volume fairly well, but I have an absolute brain block when it comes to that terrible F to C conversion formula. "Non-intuitive" doesn't even _begin_ to describe it!
And when dealing with "10 degree" increases/decreases in temperatures and the like ... argh!
<runs away, gibbering>
