I like the new half-elf! The ability to add +2 to any attribute is a big bonus, and I think the free Skill Focus + better senses + elf secret door radar sense are worth the free feat that a human gets.
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I like the new half-elf! The ability to add +2 to any attribute is a big bonus, and I think the free Skill Focus + better senses + elf secret door radar sense are worth the free feat that a human gets.
It's not just the bonus feat; humans also get the extra skill point every level (which scales, better than even the new Skill Focus).
"Worst" is such a subjective term...
They are certainly much better than they were, however I would likely still choose an elf or a human over a half-elf. However, I would also likely choose a half-elf over a halfling or gnome. In my opinion, the small races are "worse" because unless you're a spell-flinger, you're doing piddly damage compared to medium creatures, your strength sucks unless you rolled phenomenal stats (or put a lot of points in strength if your gm goes with the point-buy method), and because you're small and have a lousy strength you can barely carry your weapon, the armor you're wearing, and the clothes on your back. I don't like small races. So it all depends on what you like to play. Personally, I like the new half-elf (although admittedly not as much as elf or human).
Compare to the gnome and halfling which have a bonus to the dump stat of nearly every class in the game combined with a penalty which hurts any class that deals damage by weapon. The gnome in particular which has a bonus to CON and CHA which means essentially if you aren't making a Bard or a Sorcerer it's pretty much weaksauce.
Gnomes got the coolest "flavor" upgrade but mechanically they are super weak.
So top tier is Dwarf, Half Orc, followed closely by Human and Elf then Half elf and halfling... with the gnome trying to keep up with his 20' move speed and weak bonuses.
Next to dwarves small creatures make the best packmules:
3/4 carrying capacity
1/2 equipment weight
That's around a 1/3 increase in carrying capacity for equipment their size.
Beyond that carrying capacity isn't such an issue at higher levels anyways.
Well I think a halfling could make a fine ranged fighter, even with the dinky damage dice.
I think the one thing the "Lenny and family" threads have illistrated quite well is most the damage in 3.x comes from bonuses and multiple attacks not the weapons themselves.
Take Cenny, whom I posted the other day, and make her a halfling instead of human. She'll get +2 to hit (if you go with the throwing alternative instead of the crossbow build in the first post), and only lose about 1 point of damage per hit. She also gains +1 on all her save throws, and + 1 to her AC due to size.
Not a bad trade.
At ranged combat? No, you are going to get many more chances for full attacks, even outside of your first range increment to more and make up for the short movement.
At melee combat? Yes.
I just got done watching a human wizard make a joke out of our dwarven defender in our last game. The human would double move, move and shot, double move. While the dwarf kepts double moving trying to get close enough to swing just once. After us wizards quit laughing we took steps to stop the human from moving allowing the dwarf to have her fun.
Well I think a halfling could make a fine ranged fighter, even with the dinky damage dice.
Well it's not just the damage dice, it's the damage dice plus the strength penalty... it averages to -2 (-3 for some weapons) on every attack for the life of the character. Yes the +1 to hit is a big help. The bigger issue to me is the bonus to CHA.
I think the one thing the "Lenny and family" threads have illistrated quite well is most the damage in 3.x comes from bonuses and multiple attacks not the weapons themselves.
I think -2 damage on every attack is pretty damning... at any level but in particular at less than 5th level.
But again... the martial problems are just part of the problem. The low damage is somewhat understandable.
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Compare to the gnome and halfling which have a bonus to the dump stat of nearly every class in the game combined with a penalty which hurts any class that deals damage by weapon. The gnome in particular which has a bonus to CON and CHA which means essentially if you aren't making a Bard or a Sorcerer it's pretty much weaksauce.
Gnomes got the coolest "flavor" upgrade but mechanically they are super weak.
They make surprisingly good paladins too, especially if you go with the most recent paladin version Jason posted, where smites can be ranged attacks as well. (Halflings are even better, though I am really frustrated with their Cha bonus, and think it should go back to Int.) Make them a paladin of Abadar and have them use a crossbow and the problem becomes much less of an issue.
I like the new half-elf! The ability to add +2 to any attribute is a big bonus, and I think the free Skill Focus + better senses + elf secret door radar sense are worth the free feat that a human gets.It's not just the bonus feat; humans also get the extra skill point every level (which scales, better than even the new Skill Focus).
With all of the skill inflation in Pathfinder (e.g. skill points for favored class, skill consolidations, skills from headbands of intellect), one skill point per level is less significant than ever before, though.
Well I would point out that half-elves make good tracking rangers, and are good for wizards (skill focus(spellcraft)) especially if you want to do a loremaster or old archmage build.
Other than that I do agree they are kind of lackluster beside humans... not really badly but a little bit.
I like the new half-elf! The ability to add +2 to any attribute is a big bonus, and I think the free Skill Focus + better senses + elf secret door radar sense are worth the free feat that a human gets.It's not just the bonus feat; humans also get the extra skill point every level (which scales, better than even the new Skill Focus).
Yeah, I'd prefer half-elves get the human's bonus skill point per level, as a nod to that part of their ancestry.
granting a half-elf an extra skill point per level wouldn't hurt my feelings at all, but I'd almost want them to lose the skill focus at that point.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If the '+1 skill point or hitpoint per favoured class level' sticks, I don't see so much the need for that bump.
even the lowly fighter will have at least 3 Skill points, and the +2 bonus fits nicely into intelligence if you want another.
I actually love the 'new' half elf and would play one
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Does anyone else feel the half-elf is comparable to the other basic races or is some sort of adjustment in order?
I think the new Half-Elf is a vast improvement over the 3.5 version and I'd consider playing one.
Of course, the most likely instance would be with a character that I was planning on building with Skill Focus anyway. :)
granting a half-elf an extra skill point per level wouldn't hurt my feelings at all, but I'd almost want them to lose the skill focus at that point.
Since I wasn't clear, yeah, I'd switch those in a heartbeat. Extra skill point in, Skill Focus out.
erg... I don't agree.
So granted, maybe in the sense of "how many +1s can I get?" an extra skill point tops out skill focus, but if you want to maximize one skill, skill focus is completely the way to go.
So I think half-elves are very nice, actually. If you plan on picking up skill-focus (anything) at any point in your career, than Half-elves are an excellent alternative to humans, trading the bonus skill point of humans for some of their elven traits.
Skill focus Spellcraft is an excellent choice for all casters, for other classes skill focus use magic device is another great one, as are SF-Perception, SF-Sense Motive, SF-bluff, SF-Stealth and SF-ride.
Sitting back I can't think of any race that isn't 'better' than the half elf... but at the same time the margin is so small that I think half-elves are fine, were they are.
Sitting back I can't think of any race that isn't 'better' than the half elf...
Half-orc. (Unless you really need to operate in pitch darkness.)
I also think the half-elf is better than the elf for anything except a wizard.
Sitting back I can't think of any race that isn't 'better' than the half elf...Half-orc. (Unless you really need to operate in pitch darkness.)
I also think the half-elf is better than the elf for anything except a wizard.
Half orcs kick serious butt now. They make great clerics, druids, monks, rangers, barbarians.... about the only class they are not decent at is wizard.
I really don't get the half elf self pity either. Half elves make better (Insert any class other than wizard)s than Elves. Seriously, if you are going with the pointy eared folk you are better off just going half way.
The gnome in particular which has a bonus to CON and CHA which means essentially if you aren't making a Bard or a Sorcerer it's pretty much weaksauce.Sounds like a Gnome Cleric wouldn't be too shabby.
This is really odd... gnomes make good Bards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Paladins... that's just an odd mix. You are right, they are not stellar clerics but they would be quite good against undead and the party would likely not turn away an extra channeling/ day.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Half-elves make great rogues; now that they get the elven keen senses ability, they can find things just as well. Put the half-elven Skill Focus in Perception, plus the racial bonuses, and half-elves can practically see into the future. Furthermore, PF skill combinations mean that rogues need less skill points, and half-elves can take any favored class, a half-elf favoring rogue can take the hit points with impunity. With that build I'd put the stat bonus in Dex, since high class skill points + skill combinations means you can afford the hit in Int. More durable, more perceptive... half-elf rogues rock.
Half orcs kick serious butt now. They make great clerics, druids, monks, rangers, barbarians.... about the only class they are not decent at is wizard.
But half-orcs aren't really any better at those classes than half-elves or humans are, though. Unless you really, really need both a high Str and a high Wis, I'd rather have (a) a feat and a couple of extra skill points per level (in the case of a human), or (b) a grab-bag of halfway decent abilities and an extra skill point per level (in the case of a half-elf).
Certainly half-orcs are much better than they were before, but they still don't have much in terms of racial abilities. Some people rate darkvision quite highly, I suppose, but I generally find my parties have some kind of light source anyways (which makes low-light vision much better in general).
Well most fighters don't say no to an extra + 1 to their will saves (or rogues, rangers, barbarians...). A upfront combat cleric can diffinently get good mileage out of a half-orc chasis, and so can a druid who wants to wild shape.
A Half Orc Druid can get buy with a fifteen point buy:
10 points gets an 18 in either Str or Wis
5 points gets an 16 in the other
Drop cha down to 8 and get your Int back.
Another Option for a half orc cleric would be:
10 points gets 16 str 16 wis
2 points gets a 10 int back
3 points puts cha up to 13
Give more points and more can be done of course.
A human or a half elf couldn't get both stats as high while still maintaining the others.
Well most fighters don't say no to an extra + 1 to their will saves (or rogues, rangers, barbarians...).
The half-elf gets +2 to most Will saves (enchantment spells & effects).
The human can take Iron Will with his free feat (but why would he? there are much better things to spend a feat on).Plus fighter (or rogue, ranger,...) is a favoured class for humans & half-elves but not for half-orcs. So they're getting an extra skill point or hit point on top of that.
The half-orc maybe wins out if you're playing a melee monk/druid/cleric and you don't care about skill points. Or a free feat.
You make a good point, I guess I'm overstating the half-orc benefit... it is a good call for any class that benefits directly from wisdom and strength... that's still a pretty good list and a much bigger list than many other others but then the other races have better racial benefits. Sometimes it's easy to focus on the readily quantifiable.
The Dwarf is still pretty awesome though. And humans are still pretty darned good.
Well most fighters don't say no to an extra + 1 to their will saves (or rogues, rangers, barbarians...).The half-elf gets +2 to most Will saves (enchantment spells & effects).
The human can take Iron Will with his free feat (but why would he? there are much better things to spend a feat on).Plus fighter (or rogue, ranger,...) is a favoured class for humans & half-elves but not for half-orcs. So they're getting an extra skill point or hit point on top of that. [...]
And the Elven Immunities stack with Iron will. So I you're gonna play a fighter halv elf is a great choice. Iron will + Elven Immunities then your will saves are almost as good as the paladin. And Half-elf is nice if you want to play a light armor fighter. + 2 dex and skill focus acrobatics.
Half-elves make great rogues; now that they get the elven keen senses ability, they can find things just as well.
I'm currently playing a level 4 rogue with skill focus acrobatics. It made me able to pick other feats than the usual dodge/mobility combination. I still get it from time to time when I tumble though, but it's OK. Elven Immunities is great since I did't have to pick Iron will and at lover levels the bad guys cast sleep sometimes. no problem with that. Paralysis immunity vs Ghouls come in handy :-)
The extra HP is nice as well (got 14 int so I don't need the extra skill point). And the +2 to dex i s nice and you don't get the elven -2 to con.So do I have any wishes? I wish half-elves got a 'light version' of Weapon Familiarity so they could pick proficiency with longbow or longsword. But thats just me screaming for more :-)
Actually, I think the main problem is the owerpowered races, the dwarf and to some extent the Elf.
I like the Pathfinder Half-Elves. They need not the buff, nor the nerf. They have achieved... balance.
Half-elves in 3e and 3.5e were a joke. They were basically humans without the bonus feat, and with low-light vision and crappy skill bonuses.
In PFRPG they've become more like their elven ancestors in terms of skill bonuses, and gained the +2 to any one attribute like humans. They only real other addition is the Skill Focus feat, which seems to be of questionable merit.
Does anyone else feel the half-elf is comparable to the other basic races or is some sort of adjustment in order?
the original advantage of half elves were that (way back in 1e) they allowed elf like characters more class options at a time when classes had racial restrictions (the ancestor of the modern favored class mechanic) personally, i don't use any of the half races reasoning that this sort of thing leads to headaches, several headaches (half elf/dwarf, gnome/orc, etc) instead i allow players to play the full race equivilant: elf or orc humans can mate with any demihuman or goblinoid but the offspring is invariably human with some cosmetic changes. guess i'm prohuman. never liked the whole xtra feat schtick for humans either, i just award a flat 10% xp bonus for the favored class, how else can humans keep pace with the longer lived races and be the dominant race in most campaigns just my 2 cents
Half-Elves were good in the Original Version but know yea they are kinda Lame.
But it could be worse you could play as a Gnome. Without the Illusionist Class they are a true waste.
or evan a halfling (in any version). They were just not playable. No Strength, Little advantage in any class. Just bad.
Unless say you want to play any kind of throwing character. In which case the halfling is going to put all the big races to shame. ;D
Unless say you want to play any kind of throwing character. In which case the halfling is going to put all the big races to shame. ;D
Pathfinder halflings lost their bonus with thrown weapons...
Unless say you want to play any kind of throwing character. In which case the halfling is going to put all the big races to shame. ;DPathfinder halflings lost their bonus with thrown weapons...
Pathfinder halflings lost their bonus with thrown weapons...
Because it's worth repeating since it keeps coming up.
*sniff* I liked that racial bonus also.
WHA? but why? That's no good! I will ignore this reality and substitue my own! The very idea of not giving halflings a bonus on thrown weapons!
!!!!Why did the Halfling lose throwing!!!!
Maybe because if you are a rogue who gets a racial bonus to Charisma it would make more sense for you to put that to use with Improved Feint, which doesn't work for ranged attacks anyway.
On topic:
I also don't see how half-elves are still too weak. They do quite a good job at many things. They get a bonus to the most used perception checks plus a free skill focus. On top of that a freely choosable bonus to one ability. There's a lot of options what to do with all that.
Statwise, halfelves are the weakest race, yes.
RPwise, helves are perhaps one of the most prominent races to play.
They can be liked by both humans and elves and are far more rare than the average human paste.
Halfelves have the mysterious feeling of elves about them while maintaining the +2 to any attribute they chose.
To put it in other words, who do you think is a mroe intereting individual. That human bard girl at the bar, or that half-elf bard lady singing songs of an elven forest by the fountain?
Don't forget teh arepee benefuts! iz importants!
I will now play a half-elf. They're now perfectly viable as a race, and while they slack behind the others slightly, it's much less noticeable now. I no longer have any problems with them, though admittedly they are a little less powerful than the others.
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if i have just the playtest to go with, the big winners in my gaming group are humans, half-orcs, gnomes (mainly because my folks love the new sorcerer)
ive seen some dwarves (there should have been more but i dont have many friends who dig the dwarfy roleplaying), elves, and halflings, but sad to say i have not seen any halfelves
So halfelves would need a slight bump to see table time with my group.
if i have just the playtest to go with, the big winners in my gaming group are humans, half-orcs, gnomes (mainly because my folks love the new sorcerer)
ive seen some dwarves (there should have been more but i dont have many friends who dig the dwarfy roleplaying), elves, and halflings, but sad to say i have not seen any halfelvesSo halfelves would need a slight bump to see table time with my group.
my wife is a pathfinder halfelf ranger/rogue. She played a 3.5 human pally once.
ITs great playing with her because there is no metagaming, she doesnt have enough expereince.
We were playing D1 when she hooked up with the werewolf, she left it behind with the Npc 1st level cleric and the sorceress to go ahead and scout a clearing, suprised to come back and find them getting chewed on.
She had found two silver daggers, but didnt know immediately to use them.
A player with this innocence chose to play a half-el because it fit her character (1st level rogue) who didnt fit into either society , human or elf, but could operate in either.
unlike the half-orc who is the opposite, doesnt fit into either society but is detested by both.
there are reasons to play the half-elf ifwe look beyond which raceboosts my character to the max.
Yeah, melee combatants that wear heavy armor (assuming no mithral) or are dwarves are at a bit of a disadvantage when they can't get close enough to swing.
Heck, even a 30ft movement speed can't always compete against a creature with potent ranged attacks or spells.
But is that a disadvantage for slower characters, or an inherent flaw in making a pure melee character?
It's the flaw in being pure melee:
"Those that live by the sword... get shot by those who don't."
Fighters get all sorts of bonuses for MULTIPLE weapons. It's a beyond stupid fighter who doesn't realise the sword isn't the answer for every problem.