+5 damage at level 20? Come on, folks. That's nothing. Monsters feel that as a tickle in their ribs before they pummel the evoker to death for taking a loser school. Not only do evocations need to be ramped up in general, but the evoker needs some "oomph."
Here's my suggestion:
1. Evokers get a ray that does 1d6 damage of fire, electricity, acid, or cold. It does an additional +1 points of damage per caster level--and then it gets a +1d6 boost at fifth level and every five levels thereafter. Yes, you're then looking at the evoker doing 5d6+20 points of damage at level 20. At-will. And this sure seems like a lot, but then you realize that people thought the warlock was overpowered at first, too. And then you realize that the evoker could be beating the game by casting spells that do more damage, and then you realize that it's not overpowered.
2. Evokers do an additional +2 damage per die when casting evocation spells that do damage. This is grand because it makes evocations less bad.
Yes, Evokers got completely and utterly screwed on school powers. Not only do they already have the worst school, but, rather than get fixed, they ended up getting the worst specialist bonus. 5 bonus damage? Seriously? At level 1, 5 damage would be 'ok'. At level 20, it's not even worth writing down on your sheet. Their 20th level ability is ok. Not, ya know, compared to anyone else's, but still...ok. Honestly, a universalist is better at evocation than the evoker.
Can Evokers please get something to make them worth playing?
No. Evokers must be punished for wanting to do damage.
1. Am not sure on thiS one I could go eaither way really.
2. with ya here . at the lest they need +1 PER die.
You are missing the point!
Evokers are supposed to be angry and frustrated! Thus their will build.
(Another idea would be instead of the bonus to damage, how about a +1 (+2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, etc) bonus to the DCs of their spells that do damange - would would stack with other bonuses, such as Spell Focus.)
There was obviously a big push to nerf Evocation during the 3e design.
This owes to Evocation's reign of terror during 2e.
It is time to forgive them, and make their spells sort of scary again. I'd say halfway between 2e scary and 3e not at all scary is about right.
The specialist school power for evocation is just comical. I don't have a single player who didn't see that as underpowered. I mean really...
+5 damage at 20th? Try +50. That seems like the bottom end of what is acceptable for a capstone on a class feature.
I weep for those who choose evocation.
+1 to every damage die seems more like it.
+1 to every damage die seems more like it.
Psionics already tried that. It's not working out so well.
with too much damage addition, evocation spells can become the equivalent of save or dies. Thus, they are really careful about piling damage on damage.
+1 dmg/die is the equivalent of a d8 HD. +2 is d8+1 equivalent. If we add something as easy as Empower, that's the equivalent of ~+3 per HD, so we're sitting on a monster with 18 Con now.
There's lots of ways to increase caster level, and you only need a couple of key metamagic feats to increase dmg significantly.
Once you get dmg up to a significant level, then the monster has its own save or die scenario. It may be a reflex save, it may be hp dmg instead of fall over/brain frozen/abruptly dead/etc. Unlike other save or dies, failing to save usually means they are now half-dead, instead of completely unaffected.
People like to acclaim about elemental resistances, immunities, and how they shaft evokers. Resistance to elemental damage isn't going to stop a devoted damage guy anymore then immunity to charms or necromancy stops other save-or-die guys. Saves can be avoided completely by using touch attack spells. Elemental resistances can be gotten around with force spells, sonic energy, disintegration effects, and can also be the cause of a 'free' +50% dmg if you ID a creature's type and have the right dmg at hand.
Yeah, I agree the Orb spells should be evocation. To me, that's a huge oversight.
Yeah, Evocation might take substantial investment to pay off...but once it does, it pays off almost all the time. Even absolute immunities to certain elemental dmg can be gotten around...it's often difficult to get around other blanket immunities.
So, you have to be careful with Evocation and the power of direct dmg. Save or die, don't save and half dead can be plenty powerful...especially if you can do it to more then one creature at a time. It may take several feats, it may take something out of core rules, but it's why Evocation is treated so gingerly.
Are the bonuses and class abilities so weak? Yeah...and the idea of so many monsters with monstrous Con bonuses, # of HD, and so forth at high levels can suck. They probably should have been free metamagic dmg feats instead.
I think they just don't want mages devolving down to just dmg to kill everything, if they have the feats that bypass resistance/immunity. Sure, evocation can have problems against high Con, many HD monsters...generally a late level problem. At the same time, I've seen crazy builds that are doing 8d6 dmg with Scorching Rays at level 2 or 3.
I think the problems is that other schools receive more love with spells then evocation does...especially when you start looking at dmg caps. However, when you start stacking metamagic and see just how much dmg you can get...I can see why they still have caps.
==Aelryinth
Ermmm...I'm sorry, that analysis is no good. I mean, really, saying 'they're careful about adding bonuses because it can get out of hand' is like saying 'well, we don't want the fighter to get TOO strong, so let's not fix it up'.
I'm also really tired of hearing people say that metamagic feats fix the problem. They don't. The one's you're proposing are, in fact, a waste of spell slots. By the time you make the feat investments to get past SR, and get your save DCs up, you don't have a ton of feats. And, by the time you do, you still suck. At higher levels, when you actually have the spell slots to devote to metamagic, your buddies will have have shiny new spells, which will STILL be outclassing you, at LESS of an investment of feats. And what's wrong with a fireball having the equivalent power of a save-or-die of the same level? After all...save or dies are that strong...
Run some numbers. A maximized fireball is a level 6 spell, which puts you at level 11. Some other level 6 spells: flesh to stone, circle of death, summon monster VI. You're comparing those to 60 flipping damage? (which, by the way, will take more feats to get the save DC high enough to not become 30 damage). Using the CR equivalency tables, let's find some scrub monsters (6 CR 6s = a CR 11). 7-head hydra has 77hp, tendriculos has 94 hp, huge monstrous centipede has 66, and so on...so, you wasted one of your big spells for the day on the off chance that you're going to almost kill off some of the monsters on the off chance that they fail the rather low save they're required to make. And I'm being nice, not taking into account creatures that might have SR or energy resistance or the fact that your DM probably has no interest in running 6 hydras. Honestly, I could keep going with examples, but I'll cut you short: People who argue that evocation is good enough inevitably end up mathematically unable to display their opinion as anything but opinion in anything but the luckiest of circumstances (thank god I prepared fire before we fought ice giants),
And anyway, this discussion isn't actually about the spells, it's about the class feature. Now, when discussing class feature, look at the other specialists: The conjurer gets +6 armor and later a free, day-long pet, the transmuter gets fun stat bonuses, and later a whole plethora of utility abilities, the diviner gets the ability to act in a surprise round, and the evoker gets...+5 damage. It's mildly insulting. When I first saw it, I figured it was an oversight. I expected the good staff of Paizo to change it in beta, and I keep expecting to see a not-crappy evoker (since they've been crapped on in the first place), and, really, there should be SOMEthing to make them playable.
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With starting hit points (and class Hit Dice, and the Toughness Feat) giving better results in Pathfinder, damage spells, which were already a sub-par option to save-or-lose spells, are falling further and further behind the curve.
+1 per die is certainly an option, but even that is fairly small potatoes. Given the increase in hit points (and the already limited utility of direct damage spells at all levels), I don't think that +1 damage *per Evoker class level* would be out of line (with a caveat that it only applies to multiple missile spells, like Magic Missile, once).
Even in that case, I would consider going one step further and making the damage bonus equal to +1 per caster level *or* +1 per point of Intelligence modifier (whichever is better at that time), to make it a little sexier for the starting Evoker, who might have a +3 or +4 damage over any other Wizard casting that same Evocation spell, and only be able to look forward to a more significant increase when he hits 5th and higher levels.
A class power that allowed for a few castings of Evocation spells per day as 'optimized castings' that rolled twice the dice, and picked the best, might be a cool option for those combats where the Evoker absolutely doesn't want to see a lot of 1s, 2s and 3s on those damage dice. Being able to throw that 5d6 Fireball and, once per day, be able to roll 10d6 and choose the best five rolls, might give the Evoker that extra level of apparent mastery over any other 5th level Fireball tosser.
20 dice maximized fireball at 20th level isn't exactly going to unbalance anything (since, you know, in most cases it'll just do 60 anyway...)
70. Average for a d6 is 3.5.
A class power that allowed for a few castings of Evocation spells per day as 'optimized castings' that rolled twice the dice
And breaks all his fingers trying to pick up those 64d6 for a meteor swarm.
Not a bad idea by itself, but it gets really weird with tons of dice there. I'd say there should be a better solution. Maybe half-maximise (i.e. for your 10d6 fireball, your oll 5d6 and add 30 to the roll)
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A class power that allowed for a few castings of Evocation spells per day as 'optimized castings' that rolled twice the dice.And breaks all his fingers trying to pick up those 64d6 for a meteor swarm.
Heh. If Meteor Swarm gets a lot of use at the table and finding enoug dice (or just adding them up) becomes an issue, the player could just roll 8d6 and multiply the result by eight or something.
Or the class power could be specifically limited to only affect spells one level lower than the highest level spell that the caster can cast, so that only an Epic Wizard would be able to 'optimize' a Meteor Swarm.
Someone mentioned a rerolling 1's and possible at later level 2's, I thought that wasn't a bad idea, and would up the damage without worrying about adding onto the roll.
Maybe something where an evoker can reduce the effects of evasion? That's the number one ability I see causing problems for evocation/area damage spells, and evokers are the one group I could see coming up with a way to get past it.
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Maybe something where an evoker can reduce the effects of evasion? That's the number one ability I see causing problems for evocation/area damage spells, and evokers are the one group I could see coming up with a way to get past it.
That and Energy Resistance are often killjoys for Evokers.
Perhaps a class ability (or Feat) that allows one to create an 'enveloping spell' (evocation only) that curls around and engulfs targets more effectively, reducing the effects of Evasion by one category. (So someone with Improved Evasion would count as having Evasion, while someone with base level Evasion would be hosed.) The Evoker might be limited to only be able to create a number of such 'enveloping' spells equal to his Intelligence modifier each day.
As for Energy Resistance, some kind of 'piercing spell' or 'penetrating spell' that ignores X levels of Resistance;
1) X equalling an amount equal to your Int Mod for a low-level ability
2) X equalling an amount equal to the level of the spell being cast for a low-level ability
3) X equalling your caster level / Evoker class level for a much more powerful option
I'd originally considered an ability that would modify the Reflex Save DC for Evocation spells, but, since most classes with Evasion have very high Reflex saves anyway and it's kind of an 'all or nothing' effect, I wasn't sure how to balance such a thing. It would have to be markedly better than Spell Focus (evocation), that's for sure, and it would make the Evoker's Reflex-save spells unbalanced for targets who don't have Evasion...
Why not give the specialist bonus a +1 per die at 1st level and a +1 every 5 levels to a maximum of +5 per die at level 20.
And the level 20 ability: when you cast a evocation spell you can reduce to a half the spell resistance of the target.
Yeah I was thinking "EP" (evasion piercing) spells would be a good idea for evoker...
that could be the 8th level ability. It's not too insane, It only works against one class function of classes with numerous other abilities that still would work well, and it wouldn't have ANY effect on anyone else. Beyond that it makes the ring of evasion a little less of a must have item, without gimpping the Evasion ability across the board as only evokers would have it.
I guess replacing the current specialist ability with "RP" (resistance piercing) wouldn't hurt either, maybe 1 point of piercing at level 1 and increase it by 1 per class level? Not too much but enough to know that something is getting through.
20 dice maximized fireball at 20th level isn't exactly going to unbalance anything (since, you know, in most cases it'll just do 60 anyway...)70. Average for a d6 is 3.5.
Er, no, he specified maximized, which means the average roll per die is irrelevant. Half of the 120 raw (because the save will be made "in most cases" at 20th level) is 60.
Er, no, he specified maximized, which means the average roll per die is irrelevant. Half of the 120 raw (because the save will be made "in most cases" at 20th level) is 60.20 dice maximized fireball at 20th level isn't exactly going to unbalance anything (since, you know, in most cases it'll just do 60 anyway...)70. Average for a d6 is 3.5.
I didn't get the reference with the save.
I wonder whether spell DCs shouldn't be depending on caster level rather than spell level, or at least depending on the use dspell slot's level (so a maximised fireball gets the DC of a level 6 spell, and the same for a fireball that is just prepared as a 6th-level spell. Retire Heighten Spell and make it a general feature.)
Counter-Evasion.
Now that would be a sweet power.
I'm somewhat hesitant to adopt Idea #1, but Idea #2 seems like a MUCH better option then what Evokers are currently getting. It scales better and adds oomph without making them overpowered.
Having read through all the available spells in PF [and 3.5 before that] I am still totally baffled as to why anyone would want to play an Evoker.
I'll continue to assume that they haven't read what the non-Evocation spells can do, or realized that evocation spells, on the whole, suck.
Having read through all the available spells in PF [and 3.5 before that] I am still totally baffled as to why anyone would want to play an Evoker.
I'll continue to assume that they haven't read what the non-Evocation spells can do, or realized that evocation spells, on the whole, suck.
Haven't you ever watched Firestarter? (If you haven't... go rent that movie and watch it NOW.) The father was in many ways the more powerful of the two but the daughter could set people on fire, create walls of flames, BLOW UP HOUSES, and in general was a crazy pyromancer.
Looking at the schools analytically evocation is not the strongest of the schools. But it is the one where you blow things up. People like blowing stuff up. Evocation is the class with the most spells where you get to blow up, fry, freeze, electrify... stuff.
Evokers should be about as deadly as a fighter or rogue of a comparable level.
I am very comfortable knowing that spells like solid fog, grease, glitterdust are much better than their counterparts because these spells encourage team action. The wizard does XXX to nerf the enemy, the fighter and the rogue take advantage and cut the weakened enemy apart.
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I wonder whether spell DCs shouldn't be depending on caster level rather than spell level, or at least depending on the use dspell slot's level (so a maximised fireball gets the DC of a level 6 spell, and the same for a fireball that is just prepared as a 6th-level spell. Retire Heighten Spell and make it a general feature.)
My group does this already, it works great.
As for Energy Resistance, some kind of 'piercing spell' or 'penetrating spell' that ignores X levels of Resistance;
Why not just use energy substitution so the caster can alter a spell to inflict a type of damage the creature is vulnerable to?
It's an existing feat that works well and accomplishes the goal. I would like to see it or something similar added to core.
As for Energy Resistance, some kind of 'piercing spell' or 'penetrating spell' that ignores X levels of Resistance;Why not just use energy substitution so the caster can alter a spell to inflict a type of damage the creature is vulnerable to?
It's an existing feat that works well and accomplishes the goal. I would like to see it or something similar added to core.
I think something like Energy Substitution would be a great replacement for the evoker's current school power. Much more flavorful. Extra damage (especially a tiny bit) is not all that... evocative. :p
I think something like Energy Substitution would be a great replacement for the evoker's current school power.
Or Energy DRINK: all the school power, but twice the caffeine.
how exactly is 5d6+20 at 20th level, even for free and assuming no concentration check, overpowered? Really, I want to know the rational.
Because it's better then casting a 1st level spell (and in some cases, 2nd level spells) and is vastly more powerful then the direct damage special abilities of other Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics.
I think something like Energy Substitution would be a great replacement for the evoker's current school power. Much more flavorful. Extra damage (especially a tiny bit) is not all that... evocative. :pAs for Energy Resistance, some kind of 'piercing spell' or 'penetrating spell' that ignores X levels of Resistance;Why not just use energy substitution so the caster can alter a spell to inflict a type of damage the creature is vulnerable to?
It's an existing feat that works well and accomplishes the goal. I would like to see it or something similar added to core.
Don't know how I missed this but yes... that would be a great evoker's power. Maybe make the evoker pick an energy type at first level and he can spontaneously convert any spell into that energy type. Much more interesting and effective than just giving them a tiny bit more damage.
I can see lots of frost wizards if you did this ;)
Ok, here we go again. Why do not give a +1 to the damage per dice of the spell and improve it every 5th lvl with a +1 (+1 lvl 1, +2 lvl 5, +3 lvl 10, +4 lvl 15, +5 lvl20)?
A lvl 20 Evoker can cast a fireball and do a min damage of 60 and a max of 110.
That's the difference between a Evoker and other specialist: "DAMAGE".
I like the Energy Substitution idea but would expand it a little. Allow them to choose one energy type at 1st and choose an additional one every 5 levels. This would give them the ability to choose between 5 different energy types by 20th level, effectively ignoring Energy Resistance with their spells by changing the type at will.
This, combined with the idea of giving them the ability to reduce Evasion at 8th level and the Evoker actually starts to look a little more interesting.
Of course, then you would have to give them something else at 20th level. Maybe grant them an automatic Maximize or Empower for their Evocation spells a couple times per day?
Using attack spells like Polar Ray not only takes care of evasion, but saving throws as well. With the appropriate feat you can make it whatever style of energy shoots your fancy. Empower it or a Sudden Maximise and it really gets ugly.
Even with all the changes, Evocation IS that good. Good enough that just simply piling on the damage thst some folks want turns the class into "Clear the room with one spell" if not taken very carefully.
What evokers should be getting is not simply mega-damage but more versatility, perahps being able to change a spells energy type on the fly x times per day. Or basically some of the old Archmage secrets perhaps.
*sigh*
Your Envoker uses polar ray, dealing 20d6+5 points of cold damage at 20th level, average of ~70 damage.
My generalist uses his 8th level feature to empower a polar ray, dealing 30d6 points of cold damage at 20th level, average of ~90 damage.
See the issue here?
Let's try another example. Fighter power attacks, or does whatever, two handed. Even a mediocre fighter can dish out 40+ damage a hit. Assuming two hits (not hard, especially with spells like haste in the mix) the fighter is already out damaging the wizard, who is using one of his bests spells, in his specialization. The envoker's polar ray, which he has maybe 10 of a day at 20th level (if he prepares nothing else, and I can assure you every wizard will prepare something else, realistically you can devote perhaps half your spells to overt attacks if you are lucky) does less damage then the fighters full attack, or move + attack using a weapon of speed. Which the fighter can use every, single, round.
That's problematic. You can point to the envoker's ability to damage multiple foes, but in my experience fights seldom involve more then 2-4 combatants on the other side and they are very rarely in a formation where you can just drop fireballs on them as you please without hurting allies.
In a wizard is going to specialize in blasting things to death, he should be able to keep up with the fighter at least when using his most powerful spells for the level, and at present that isn't the case. It isn't even close to the case.
One of the better suggestions I heard was +5 damage per spell level. Thus the Envoker's polar ray would do 20d6+40 damage. Average of ~100, assuming no resistance. Which isn't out of line for one of the wizards most powerful spells, when save or dies do 200 damage at that level easily, and save or loses completely end fights.
Your entire position is flawed. The math shows it. And your response to the poor screwed over Envokers is.... "Evocation IS that good"? No, it isn't. It isn't even close. A pretty much every class is dealing more damage then the envoker, and even his wizard peers are laughing at him. The rogue is laughing at him. The fighter and barbarian are laughing at him. The cleric & druid laugh because they do 5 less damage then him but can heal, wear armor, fight better, and are tougher with better saves. The sorcerer... I guess the Envoker goes off and cries in the corner with the sorcerer.
Evocation isn't that good, it is terrible. It is without a doubt the worst school available. 5 damage just doesn't cut it. Do your homework or shut your mouth. Stop clogging the thread with an opinion not supported in fact and based purely on your misguided fears.
As an added note, wizards aren't going to be clearing out the room with one spell unless the foes are far under their level. I can't think of a CR 15+ monster off the top off my head with under 120 hit points, and I know pretty much all the CR 20 monsters pack 200+, with some packing 500+ (or close to it), along with SR, immunities, resistances, and high saves.
Pretty much. I've yet to see a game ruined by the wizard out damaging the fighter. Most complaints with the wizard involve save or dies, debuffs, or extremely elaborate and extensive combination of spells that drain a significant amount of a wizards daily resources.
Pretty much. I've yet to see a game ruined by the wizard out damaging the fighter. Most complaints with the wizard involve save or dies, debuffs, or extremely elaborate and extensive combination of spells that drain a significant amount of a wizards daily resources.
I can only agree there. Nobody claims that wizard is "terribly broken" because he does too much damage, that's a carry-over stereotype from 2nd Ed. They claim he's busted because their DM lets them misinterpret low level enchantments and they have a party of plastic characters who don't mind adventuring for exactly thirty six seconds (not at all a dramatic overstatement for some "pro wizarding" examples I've seen) between rest periods every day while the group goes "We rest. Okay spells back, so we wake up and go into the next room."
The power of an abusive player to turn the game into a constant tug of war of utter BS is the only thing that's wrong with ANY of the classes. I'd simply like the all the schools to kick about as much ass as the illusionist does, and I'd be double plus set.
Add my vote for increasing damage from evocation spells, however that gets accomplished. Could do something as easy as removing upper level caps (ie, no more "max 10hd fireballs" etc), adding extra damage per dice (ie, "fireball deals 1d6/level of caster +1/level of caster"), or adding interesting effects to existing spells (ie, "fireball has concussive force and so also deals 1d6/caster level of bludgeoning damage") etc.
I think there are many ways it could be done, but in any event, evocation spells need to do some more damage or do more interesting things.
Another option might be to allow evokers to have mastery of metamagic applied to evocations. Such as reducing the level increase by 1 for feats applied to evocation spells (min. 1); increase to 2 later on.
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I know this is probably bad, but i love that movie...Counter-Evasion.
Now that would be a sweet power.
Ah, but I have the Trace-Busta Busta!
I happen to be with you on that one, that movie is a bit of a sick pleasure.
I have been prolly noted for being a spellhatta, but in truth i would love to see some more carnage from mages (i mean, who memorizes BURNING HANDS at first level, scratch that, at ANY level) how about giving Evokers the ability to bump the casting time of their spells to a full round action, and they get +2 damage per die of the spell (also burning hands, shocking grasp need to start with at LEAST 2 dice of damage at first level, something to make you possible take it instead of COLOR SPRAY)