I suppose it's more to the last option. Like: "If you think the paladin is till too weak, this is what we could doe".
At the very least, it was what I supposed to be. Like, Jason won't use your idea, he will use his, no matter if the people here like yours more..
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stuffBut lesser restoration is a 2nd level cleric spell
Yes, but what you suggest is more powerful than lesser restoration + Remove disease.
Lesser restoration only restores 1d4 temporary damage.
And the Paldin can achieve these 2 effects in a standard action.Maybe this ablity can be fixed by a new wording.
Call it something like: Clensing, disease. It works like Remove disease and cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage caused by one disease.
Or somthing like that.And at level 14: Clensing, Poison. Works like Neutralize Poison and Restoration.
But then at higher levels the ability is too costly without enough benefit. The boost at low levels seems like a lot, but it really isn't (unless your campaign centers around disease) think about how many times it's going to come up, and then think of how often the disease goes on for multiple days where it would take more than 1d4 to cure.
At least you are trying to make suggestions though, it's better than just its too saying its too good leave it be.
As for the dip discusion fine a bonus feat is too good, but then what do you suggest at level one because the paladin needs something to do after his one smite per day is used up. every other class gets something that goes on either longer or has more uses but the paladin gets one per day. and he won't get any other boost to his combat ability till level 4. So until level 4 he gets to be competent for one round and then he can heal. If the ability is going to come it needs to be at 1st but the problem with the whole dip arguement is that you've already made the arguement for dip, one more ability isn't going to tip it into must have unless its awesome, your saying that the difference between having weapon focus makes you say I've got to dip whereas before you weren't going to, fine, then what can we give him at level 1 that doesn't hit that "this class is a must have" button?
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I suppose it's more to the last option. Like: "If you think the paladin is till too weak, this is what we could doe".
At the very least, it was what I supposed to be. Like, Jason won't use your idea, he will use his, no matter if the people here like yours more..
Well, I'm under the same impression, but a condensed thread people can come see the changes and make their arguements against things without wading through 10 pages they didn't look at earlier. and jason may not take all of the suggestions but he can look at them see what he likes and change them to suit him, which he might not be doing with the 800 post message now that he's moved on in the design section.
So what I see as the advantage of this thread is funny cause it's the same thing that Vult says he hates :D
So what I see as the advantage of this thread is funny cause it's the same thing that Vult says he hates :D
Not quite sure what you mean here man....
I have been reading every post in our HUGE discussion, what is it, close to 600 posts now? I have been trying to keep track of the ones that people are starting to rally behind. We finally started to come to some common ground there and it was good. So i figured that there would be many people who did not want to read through it all (of course I did not realize that by doing this I would also incur all the decent.) to see what those of us who have spent hours and hours there have come up with. Plus I work better when I have everything all lined up for me. (just a quirk of mine).
I wanted this thread to be here for the people who dont have a lot of time but care about where the discussion has gone. If you really want to know all the steps we went through to get to the conclusions that we did...then honestly you should read ALL the posts in that HUGE thread. There is a lot of good discussion and we have went through many phases.
I do not think that the summary I wrote is/should be/will be the end all be all in terms of the paladin. I think this is a great version of the paladin, I think it is what the MAJORITY of us who have spent a lot of time here have agreed on (for the most part). That was all it was meant to be. Yes of COURSE i hope Jason looks at it and says "damn these guys did some great work and these ideas look solid! lets use this". Do I also understand that this probably will not happen? yes I do. But I care about the paladin and this is very close to the paladin I want to see.
Those people? That's me.
:-)Why power dip? Let's see:
- Only class with full BAB and good will saves.
- A bonus feat
- the class skills
- the good fortitude saves
- using wands
- detect evil
- smite evil
- Holy Avenger
- d10 HD
- the Weapon and Armor Proficiency.Yes, rogues (and fighters) might find this nice.
And Yes I do have an idea how aweful only having 1/day smite is and nothing else. I'm just saying it encourages dipping....and it does.
And it's one of the reasons i suggested the bonus feat at level 2. Also bonus feats at level 2, 6 and 14 matches the ranger's combat style feats.And no, I don't see the Code of Conduct as a major problem.
Again I could not disagree with you more. When I look at the points you have posted about why someone would want to lvl dip into paladin all I see is a lot of good reasons to dip into FIGHTER instead of paladin.
Fighter gets the full BAB, the D10 HD, the bonus feat (without it being from as limited of a list), the weapon and armor proficiency's, Good fort save....ALL of that WITHOUT having to be Lawful Good and without having the paladins code of conduct (which YES I disagree again, this IS a major issue).
Also as far as the issue with good will saves....dipping one level gives you what? A plus 1 to your will save throughout the characters life? (that is how it worked in 3.5 unless it changes in PF). So one of the reasons you want to dip is for a +1 will save?
I agree, yes Detect evil is cool, smite evil is cool when combined with the options listed here (the CURRENT form is NOT something really worth dipping for AT ALL!).
So again, if you are really looking to dip into a class for its "fighting" abilities...dip fighter, you will be happier.
Quoted directly from the PF Beta. Pay close attention to the highlighted parts.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good
alignment and loses all class abilities, except proficiencies,
if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she
respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying,
not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those
in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or
chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten
innocents.
I am sorry but two of you have used the argument that a ROGUE would want to dip paladin. Ok, but you are going to loose all of the "paladin" abilities really quickly. The bold points above are almost ALL in direct opposition to the description of a rogue. Yes I am sure that if you wanted to play the "noble" rogue you could do it. That would be a challenge and a fun character to play. But I think we could all agree that the stereotypical rogue is Chaotic (not going to respect legitimate authority all the time). Self preservation is part of being chaotic (even if it is good) so the act with honor part could be in question. Isn't disguise a rogue class skill? I think that lying or cheating would probably come in handy if you were tying to pretend to be someone else. Use poison? Do I really have to explain that one?
Basically if you are arguing AGAINST this version of the paladin I done feel that the "dipping" argument holds much weight. If you have issue with a specific section ok, but dont use dipping...that is really weak. There are so many other reasons to dip other classes.
Actually my rogue/paladin character could follow the code of conduct that is required to be a paladin. They were trained in the best ways to strike an opponent yes, but that was both to shorten the fight and if possible to be used with nonlethal damage. Trapfinding was of imense help for avoiding danger when hunting down evil. Sense motive, bluff (for feinting), diplomacy, Use Magic Device, where all helpful as was the perception and disable device skills.
Just pointing out that a rogue doesn't have to be a lying stealing chaotic type.
he actually made the point that you could play that type of character...(also from the sounds of it your character was either multi-classed, or a paladin with a rogue dip)
But, this is just going to be a long circular argument that gets us no-where, can we move on please?
There is always going to be people who want to use the "extreme" ends of the spectrum to form their argument. Oddly enough some of those same people are the ones who want to argue FOR balance (Ironic?).
There is ALWAYS going to be the extreme ends of the scale on either side. But isnt this sort of discussion supposed to be about the baseline? The STANDARD way things will happen? Yes we can argue the POSSIBILITIES all day long, but what about the PROBABILITIES? That is where the arguments start to loose force.
Truth is, a paladin should smite evil with EVERY strike he does. But someone will scream BALANCE!!! so we cant do that can we? So who got screwed? The guy who wanted to play with some restrictions to gain some form of advantage for specific encounters (evil!). So we have to look towards...again...the baseline! Now we are no longer looking at the extreme ends of the scale for options for the class but OF COURSE people can still use the extremes as ARGUMENTS AGAINST the baseline....in which case we WEAKEN an already wanning class FURTHER.
LKL you are right, this is an endless evolution.
I just want to talk about how we make the paladin actually shine where he is supposed to. That is supposed to be fighting evil but I think we are going to continue to have a holy sword boy for the fighter or divine cheerleader for the cleric. We can not be a good fighter against evil because that hurts the poor little fighters feelings, the paladin cant stand on his own because he needs to be weak so other classes can feel strong.
PLEASE, lets talk about how to make the paladin work. Not all the CRAZY infinite ways we can find that one random person is going to abuse.
The parts I've liked so far:
The idea about aura based smite evil.
The need for an in between for normal attacks and smiting evil (the HA idea) or more smite attempts.
New Paladin Lay on Hands (I don't mind the doubling for channel positive)
Spontaneous casting
Healing ability damage with the Remove Disease
Upgrading/changing the aura of justice.
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New Paladin Lay on Hands (I don't mind the doubling for channel positive)
Okay, I have to say this again, I don't mind it, but as it stands its a nerf that breaks backwards compatability, I have no problem with it if it can be worked out that what you were capable of in 3.5 you are capable of in Pathfinder, but as it stands right now, that isn't the case. The stated design goal is backwards compatability, I have shown numerous times how the current version isn't backwards compatable, that means in its current form, it breaks the stated design goal.
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The Paladin is balanced in Pathfinder because he needs both Strength and Charisma. The fighter only needs Str and Cha is a dump stat.
Yes, and that is way I say give The Paladin an allways on boost to attack (and probably AC too).
What's MAD?
So MAD is a part of the design balance of the Paladin, and it's okay for a little power creep to set into the Paladin, not much, but a little.
Multiple Ability Dependance
as opposed to spellcasters like wizards who are
Single Ability Dependant
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I don't like the changes to Divine Bond. The 30 day mourning period was a very nice control for the gains. I additionally don't like the emphasis on the investiture/communion of a spirit into bonded mount, weapon or shield. If it's a "spirit" of some sort, it becomes fair game to define and kill in one of several thousand ways (and reminds me too much of the "I summon an avatar of my god to fight by my side" abilities for 4th Edition divines. I'd also much prefer that the Paladin get to choose 2 out of 3 of those options for divine bond and have more access to use them.
I'm fine with divine bond working on shields, but I think it should be as either shield or sword, and you can choose each time what you are summoning it too.
Also I hate animated shield too, Sorry, seen one too many Greatsword wielders suddenly buy an animated shield. It's not that it is bad for the sword and boarder, it's that it means the sword and boarder wasted all of his time as a sword and boarder.
I think the weapon ability of divine bond currently (as put out by JB in the Paladin focus thread) favors the lower end of DM's (oh look the paladin shined up his sword! Time to break it!). I also think it promotes the 15 minute adventuring day with it's 1/day for x minutes form.
I agree that a weapon spirit should understand that things happen in combat, and not be so upset that the weapon got broken. Breaking up the time that a paladin can use this ability instead of the x/day formula would mean increases in duration wouldn't have to be as dramatic, and the paladin wouldn't run out of an ability five minutes after his first fight.
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then maybe instead of Shield and weapon or Mount, how about armor, weapon or mount?I'm fine with divine bond working on shields, but I think it should be as either shield or sword, and you can choose each time what you are summoning it too.
Also I hate animated shield too, Sorry, seen one too many Greatsword wielders suddenly buy an animated shield. It's not that it is bad for the sword and boarder, it's that it means the sword and boarder wasted all of his time as a sword and boarder.
Cause I prefer there be some class out there with an ability for sword and boarders.
I'm totally with LKL on this one. A paladin ability that could actually make them useful sword-and-shield fighters would receive my total support.
Oh, and I despise animated shields -- there's only one in my homebrew campaign, and it's a minor artifact, rather than a simple armor property.
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Level 1: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil/Holy Avenger 1/day, Bonus Feat (weapon focus or combat expertise).
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning its strength as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.Robert Brambley wrote:
HOLY AVENGER: A paladin may focus divine energy from his god to course through his body and become an extension of its might. For 1 round + 1 rd per CHA MOD, the paladin gains a bonus to all attack rolls made against evil targets equal to their CHA mod, and an amount of damage equal to his paladin level. Also he gains a bonus to his AC equal to his CHA MOD as a Sacred Bonus. Using this ability uses one of his daily Smite Evil attempts.SMITE EVIL: The paladin may declare a strike to Smite Evil. During this attack, the paladin adds half his paladin level to his attack roll, and deals 1d6 of holy damage / 2 paladin levels (min 1d6). This smite is not used up for the day, if the paladin misses with his attack roll, but if he tries to smite a target that is not evil the use is expended, but no benefits are gained from it. Smite evil bypasses all forms of Damage reduction. The paladin gains an additional use of smite evil at level 4 and then another at every 3 levels there after. All of these uses can be used for Smite evil or Holy Avenger.
Level 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Lay On Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma bonus. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin target’s herself, in which case it is a swift action. As a paladin gains levels, she can use this ability to create other effects. The DC for any of these abilities is based off the paladin’s Charisma. Using any other ability is a standard action, regardless of the target.Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
Level 3: Aura of Courage, Divine Health.
Level 4: Channel Positive Energy, Smite Evil 2/day. (spells).
Other listed changes here are the paladin’s caster level becomes Paladin level –3 and he gains spontaneous casting from the whole list. I also modified Jason B’s listed change of Channel Positive Energy to only use up one use of Lay on Hands instead of 2, I feel this fixes that problem. With the improved way it works now I am okay with giving up one of my LoH (which is also greatly improved) to heal an area.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Channel Positive Energy (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to channel positive energy as a cleric. Using this ability consumes ONE use of her lay on hands ability. A paladin uses her level as her effective cleric level when channeling positive energy.Level 5 Divine Bond. Bonus Feat (extra lay on hands or weapon specialization).
Another change that I love was the addition of being able to divide your weapon bond to bonuses to your shield instead of your sword if you want too when summoning the spirit, I think this is an amazing addition. Of course the same rules would apply for the +1 and the additional shield abilities would be drawn from; Bashing, Arrow deflection, blinding, “element” resistance, Fortification (light, moderate or Heavy), Ghost touch, and Reflecting.
I would also add Ghost Touch to the list of weapons and Bane (Evil Outsiders or Undead).
Level 6: Remove Disease.
lastknightleft wrote:
Remove Disease: A simple fix would be to allow a paladins remove disease to actually restore all ability damage lost to the disease. A cleric would take two spells (remove disease and lesser restoration) to do that. Therefor it doesn't feel like a dead level.Level 7: Smite Evil 3/day.
Level 8: Aura of Resolve.
Level 9: Remove Curse.
This works in the same way as Remove Disease above, just with curses.
Level 10: Smite Evil 4/day. Bonus feat (Extra turning or Greater Weapon Focus).
Level 11: Aura of Justice , OR Mettle (or whatever OGL name you want.)
Pekkias wrote:
Mettle (Ex): You can resist magical attacks with greater effectiveness than other warriors. By drawing on your boundless energy and dedication to your cause, you can shrug off effects that would hinder even the toughest warrior. If you succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), you instead negate the effect. You do not gain the benefit of mettle when you are unconscious or sleeping.Level 12: Neutralize Poison.
This works in the same way as Remove Disease above, just with poisons.
Level 13: Smite Evil 5/day.
Level 14: Aura of Faith.
I would suggest that this read “a paladin’s weapons are considered to have the “Holy” property” and any attacks made against an enemy within 10 feat of her is treated as good aligned for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.
This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.Level 15: Break enchantment. Bonus Feat (selective channeling or Greater Weapon Specialization).
Level 16: Smite Evil 6/day.
Level 17: Aura of Righteousness.
It should be noted that the damage reduction should read, DR 5/good.
Level 18: Heal.
Level 19: Smite Evil 7/day.
Level 20: Holy Champion.
It should also be noted that the damage reduction should read, DR increases to 10/good.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/good. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.
Hey guys I just wanted to resubmit the compilation with some minor changes that make it a little more balanced. See what you think.
LKL, I like the way you did the bonus feats....that was basically what I was trying to go for but I said it wrong.
You took away the bonus of Char mod extra smites. I understand this but with Holy Avenger it does not give us much advantage. If we use it this way maybe we should tie Holy Avenger to Channeling uses instead of smite uses (since you separated CE and LoH).
Someone suggested that we add one more property to the Bonded weapon that I like. They said that it should add the Cold Iron or Adamantine properties as well. I love this. It should be in addition to the +1 the weapon also gains the properties of Cold Iron, Mithril or Adamantine for the duration. This also helps with the issue that you had about the sword being broken as we all know adamantine is HARD to break. I would very much like to see this added.
Your suggestion of DR/good i fine with me.
All in all I am ok with your changes if we take into account what I listed above.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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LKL, I like the way you did the bonus feats....that was basically what I was trying to go for but I said it wrong.
You took away the bonus of Char mod extra smites. I understand this but with Holy Avenger it does not give us much advantage. If we use it this way maybe we should tie Holy Avenger to Channeling uses instead of smite uses (since you separated CE and LoH).
Someone suggested that we add one more property to the Bonded weapon that I like. They said that it should add the Cold Iron or Adamantine properties as well. I love this. It should be in addition to the +1 the weapon also gains the properties of Cold Iron, Mithril or Adamantine for the duration. This also helps with the issue that you had about the sword being broken as we all know adamantine is HARD to break. I would very much like to see this added.
Your suggestion of DR/good i fine with me.
All in all I am ok with your changes if we take into account what I listed above.
There was a weapon property in the FR "Underdark" book for SR called "metalline," which was a +1 property that let you change the metal type of your weapon vs. DR. Something like this would be, I would think, a fairly simple and easy bonus for PF to include in their magic item section, and in so doing to also include as a +1 ability for paladins with divine bond.
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LKL, I like the way you did the bonus feats....that was basically what I was trying to go for but I said it wrong.
You took away the bonus of Char mod extra smites. I understand this but with Holy Avenger it does not give us much advantage. If we use it this way maybe we should tie Holy Avenger to Channeling uses instead of smite uses (since you separated CE and LoH).
Someone suggested that we add one more property to the Bonded weapon that I like. They said that it should add the Cold Iron or Adamantine properties as well. I love this. It should be in addition to the +1 the weapon also gains the properties of Cold Iron, Mithril or Adamantine for the duration. This also helps with the issue that you had about the sword being broken as we all know adamantine is HARD to break. I would very much like to see this added.
Your suggestion of DR/good i fine with me.
All in all I am ok with your changes if we take into account what I listed above.
Well if you recall the discussion on Holy avenger there were two versions floating around. One was that Holy avenger gave you 1+cha rounds and one that was 1 round but you got 1+cha smites per day to wind up with the same effect if you went HA. You then put the two together. I can live with only having one till 4th level now that LoH and detect evil are actually worthwile. The whole reason you needed more smites is because the paladin had 1 round a day to be good and that was it. Yeah 4-5 rounds a day to be good isn't that great, but it's a lot better than before and now you only have to get to level two to get more combat options, especially with that good will save and a bonus feat. I honestly think in your zeal your seeing it with a bit of rose colored glasses 1+cha smites per day will be 4-5 smites giving an extra d6 or 16-25 rounds at +3-+4 AC at first level, so yes you've overshot in my opinion and top loaded the class. Do you really want to wait till level four if you cant have 1+cha mod for it?
As for the mutable material, no thank you, I don't think that makes sense for the paladin, Oh I am able to bypass this iron golems DR because I'm so righteous, despite the fact that there is nothing wrong with the Golem in and of itself. I think it neither fits the flavor of the paladin nor makes sense mechanically as a paladin ability.
Sorry to pull this on you, but I honestly missed the 1+cha that you threw in there. I would have been against it from the begining had I noticed it.
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There was a weapon property in the FR "Underdark" book for SR called "metalline," which was a +1 property that let you change the metal type of your weapon vs. DR. Something like this would be, I would think, a fairly simple and easy bonus for PF to include in their magic item section, and in so doing to also include as a +1 ability for paladins with divine bond.LKL, I like the way you did the bonus feats....that was basically what I was trying to go for but I said it wrong.
You took away the bonus of Char mod extra smites. I understand this but with Holy Avenger it does not give us much advantage. If we use it this way maybe we should tie Holy Avenger to Channeling uses instead of smite uses (since you separated CE and LoH).
Someone suggested that we add one more property to the Bonded weapon that I like. They said that it should add the Cold Iron or Adamantine properties as well. I love this. It should be in addition to the +1 the weapon also gains the properties of Cold Iron, Mithril or Adamantine for the duration. This also helps with the issue that you had about the sword being broken as we all know adamantine is HARD to break. I would very much like to see this added.
Your suggestion of DR/good i fine with me.
All in all I am ok with your changes if we take into account what I listed above.
Actually it's unnecessary now that you can have +weapons break DR. Just buy a +3 weapon and take divine bond to add properties. Viola you're bypassing silver and cold iron. I don't like it and I don't think it fits the paladins flavor. Evil can't escape a paladin, but a dryad sure as heck can.
Sorry to pull this on you, but I honestly missed the 1+cha that you threw in there. I would have been against it from the begining had I noticed it.
I dont know why you keep saying "that you threw in there". That was a direct quote from someone else....I did not change or adjust that at all.
Also, yes I would be willing to wait till lvl 4 for my smites if it meant a smite that was worthwhile. I mean at that point all you are giving up is one smite for one round a day....not a big loss.
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Sorry to pull this on you, but I honestly missed the 1+cha that you threw in there. I would have been against it from the begining had I noticed it.I dont know why you keep saying "that you threw in there". That was a direct quote from someone else....I did not change or adjust that at all.
Also, yes I would be willing to wait till lvl 4 for my smites if it meant a smite that was worthwhile. I mean at that point all you are giving up is one smite for one round a day....not a big loss.
Right, I think what happened was that you took Jason Nelsons Smite and Robert Brambleys HA. Sorry to use the term "you threw that in there" I just meant I missed it in there.