What about throwing an opponent? How far can you throw someone (against their will)? What if they were willing to be used as a missle? What about damage?
This seems to come up every other gameplay and I am still at a loss as to how it is supposed to work. For the time being it is simply disallowed. "I dont care what your carry capacity is or what you rolled. Your not throwing the orc into his buddy."
As much as I hate it, you're right about this coming up with unnerving frequency. It seems to me like CMB would be a good place to start in trying to find a mechanic for this.
Perhaps grappling and pinning someone would allow you to hoist them. Then a final CMB check would allow you to throw them as a sort of ranged bullrush/overrun. The distance might be one 5' square per every 5 points in excess of the DC.
|
hmm...
perhaps "combat throw" could be rolled into the combat maneuver sections.
as is, there're conditions to immobilize, knock-down, and move (grapple/pin, trip, and bull rush) the enemy, so why not throws?
cmb DC 15+enemy's bab (perhaps 10+CMB), beat their score and throw em 5', by each 5 you beat it, another 5' of throwing. you get to pick their direction and square they land in. if an occupied square take 1d6 dmg / 5' travelled and land prone in square before the obstacle.
easy enough, improved throw would add +2 (or whatever they end up deciding) and not provoke AoO.
-t
I love this. Here's how I changed it a bit and will implement it to see how it works. I have also had players express this action in play and will try it's mechanics for feasibility.
Thanks for the ideas!
Hoist and Throw an Opponent
On the subsequent round of successfully pinning an opponent, a character may opt to hoist and throw the opponent as a full-round action. The character’s strength (overhead) must be sufficient to lift the opponent and the opponent must be a size category equal or smaller to your own. Attempting to throw a target more than one size category larger than the character’s own size will automatically fail. A hoisted and thrown opponent can be hurled for 5 feet for each 5 increment by which the pin check was made. For example if the pin check is determined as a CMB of 34, the opponent can be hurled for 30 feet and may choose the direction thrown.
The hoisted and thrown target can make an Acrobatics check to avoid landing prone. The DC to avoid landing prone is equal to DC = distance thrown. If the opponent’s acrobatics check does not equal or exceed the DC, the hoisted opponent falls prone. If the target fails the DC by 5 or more, the hoisted opponent suffers 1d6 falling damage.
This needs to be way harder. First, you should only be able to throw someone who is actually smaller than you. Second, the DC should be way up there, with a maximum of about 10 feet for even the best roll.
I use the rules from Iron Heroes. This is how this goes
IF YOU ARE GRAPPLING
Lift Your Opponent: You can attempt to hoist your opponent in the air, leaving him virtually helpless but restricting the actions you can take. You must make a successful grapple check with a –4 penalty. In addition, you must be capable of lifting your opponent’s weight above your head. If you succeed, you now hold your foe in the air above you. You can use this option only if no more than one opponent is part of the grapple.
IF YOU LIFT AN OPPONENT
When you lift an opponent as described above, you hold him above your head (or otherwise in an awkward and exposed position). Anyone who attacks you can freely choose which target to strike, rather than using a random method as normal for attacking into a grapple. You lose your active bonuses to defense as normal. You have the following options when you hold an opponent. None of them requires a grapple check, though each one is the equivalent of a single attack made with a standard attack action or as part of a full attack.
Hold: You keep your opponent hoisted in the air as he flails helplessly. See "If An Opponent Lifts You" for the game effects of being hoisted. Use the standard rules for carrying a weight to see how long you can hold an opponent still.
Slam: You drive your opponent into the ground, slamming him into the dirt with the full weight of your brutal strength. Your foe suffers nonlethal damage equal to 1d6 + double your Strength modifier. In addition, he is prone in a square of your choice within your reach.
Throw: You launch your opponent into the air. You canthrow him into a space or toss him at another foe. In either case, you must make a ranged touch attack against the target space or foe. If you try to throw the opponent you grapple into a specific, unoccupied square, treat the square’s defense as 5. If you miss, use the scatter rules to determine where your opponent lands (see “Throw Splash or Grenadelike Weapon,”. This attack has a maximum range equal your Strength score divided by 5, rounded down, to a minimum of one square. Your target takes damage as if he fell a number of feet equal to the distance you threw him, plus any vertical distance he falls. For example, if you throw a goblin into a well that is 10 feet away from you, it suffers a fall of 10 feet + the well’s depth. (Falling damage equals 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen.) The thrown creature lands prone in the target space. Anyone struck by a thrown creature suffers damage based on the creature’s size, as shown in the table below. A creature with a moderate load or medium armor counts as one size category higher than normal, while one in heavy armor or with a heavy load counts as two sizes larger than normal when determining damage. Anyone struck in this manner is automatically knocked prone if they are the same size or smaller than the thrown creature. The table below shows damage from thrown creatures.
Creature Size Damage
Colossal 5d6
Gargantuan 4d6
Huge 3d6
Large 2d6
Medium 1d8
Small 1d6
Tiny 1d4
Diminutive 1d3
Fine 1d2
IF AN OPPONENT LIFTS YOU
While held aloft, you remain almost helpless. You lose all active bonuses to defense, while anyone attacking the grapple can freely choose to strike you or your opponent. You can try to break free, cast a spell, attack the person holding you, or attack another target. To attempt anything other than breaking free, you must use a full-round action to make an opposed grapple check with a –4 penalty. Success means you can attempt the action as part of your full round action. Breaking free is a normal grapple check with a –4 penalty.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
I love this. Here's how I changed it a bit and will implement it to see how it works. I have also had players express this action in play and will try it's mechanics for feasibility.
Thanks for the ideas!
Hoist and Throw an Opponent
On the subsequent round of successfully pinning an opponent,...
So, this would be on the third round of a grapple?
1 round to grapple.
2 round to pin.
3 round to throw.
I hope it could be on the second. It certainly takes less than 18 seconds to throw someone in real life (sometimes).
This needs to be way harder. First, you should only be able to throw someone who is actually smaller than you. Second, the DC should be way up there, with a maximum of about 10 feet for even the best roll.Never practised judo?
If there are feats to increase the action, great.
I'm more concerned with the actual mechanic for doing so in the first place. But Improved Throw/Judo would certainly need to be included in the mix as every other CMB has an improvement feat.
|
This needs to be way harder. First, you should only be able to throw someone who is actually smaller than you. Second, the DC should be way up there, with a maximum of about 10 feet for even the best roll.
As someone who is constantly asked to throw people into a pool (my family say I should have been a pro wrestler cause I can pick them up over my head, weightlifting FtW) that isn't true.
Here is how I would rule it. The creature must weigh less than your lift over head. If the person thrown is unconscious then they are an improvised weapon with a 5ft range increment 20ft max range that as a ranged touch attack deals 1d6 non-lethal damage per 100lbs of the creature thrown to both the creature thrown and hit. On a miss the person thrown still takes damage.
If they are awake, then the round after a pin you may attempt a CMB check at -5 (basically negating the "held from previous round" clause bonus) you throw the person 5ft and for every 5 by which the dc is beaten another 5 ft to a max of 20ft. If the creature would pass through an occupied square then compare your CMB check to the creatures, if your check beats their DC then the creature thrown ends its movement in the square closest to you and both the creature thrown and the creature struck take 1d6 non-lethal damage per 100lbs of the creature thrown. On a miss or if the creature thrown does not pass through an occupied space it moves it's total distance and still takes this non-lethal damage.
|
|
I love this. Here's how I changed it a bit and will implement it to see how it works. I have also had players express this action in play and will try it's mechanics for feasibility.
Thanks for the ideas!
Hoist and Throw an Opponent
On the subsequent round of successfully pinning an opponent,...
So, this would be on the third round of a grapple?
1 round to grapple.
2 round to pin.
3 round to throw.I hope it could be on the second. It certainly takes less than 18 seconds to throw someone in real life (sometimes).
Not if they are struggling. When a person is struggling its practically impossible to do a pick up throw, which is why you need to pin them so that they can't squirm and make the throw impossible. That said, I would allow a throw of a creature not pined at a -15 penalty. (yes this stacks with the previous -5 I already talked about). The reason I make it so difficult (even on a pin) is because when a creature isn't willing, it's increadibly hard to throw them. if you watch professional wrestling you'll notice that when being thrown in any way the person being thrown is always "stunned" and acts as a limp mass. This is because all they really need to do is twist and squirm and they'd ruin the toss and only go about three feet.
there is another type of "throw" we could discuss, a momentum throw, this is were you don't actually pick someone up and throw them but rather use strength and momentum to send them flying at ground level. This type of throw doesn't require picking up a person, but at best it only leaves them prone and if they struck another person it wouldn't deal damage.
And then harder than the momentum throw but easier than the pick up throw is a "flip" which doesn't send them anywhere, but deals damage and leaves them prone.
Keep in mind I come from a wrestling standpoint having done a ton of it (real wrestling, not professional wrestling). If you are less concerned with realism than I am then feel free to make your system easier to work with.
Realism has vacated the premises. At least, realism as in 'things work as they do on Earth, even though the game world is not Earth'. Which is usually what is meant.
Note: The following assumes you wish to make the maneuver worth ever using. If you do not wish it to be worth an action, don't do this. Though why you would want to create something that is useless, I don't know.
Throw effects depend on level.
Anyone may attempt a throw via taking a standard action to make a touch attack. This is resolved as a trip attempt but does not provoke, and your opponent cannot reactively trip you. You can use either Strength or Dexterity for this and get a +4 bonus to the attempt. If you succeed in tripping your foe, you may throw them up to 10 feet away in any direction where they land prone in that square.
If you cannot throw your target into a clear space, it lands prone in its own space. Movement via the throw does not provoke AoOs.
If you are at least level 5, you gain a new option for throws that functions as the previous one except that you must move at least 15 feet before making the standard action attempt, the target falls prone if successfully thrown and takes 2d6 points of damage, and for every 5 points by which you beat his check he flies an additional 5 feet, so getting +10 on the check means you throw your enemy up to 20 feet.
If you are at least level 7, the victim of your throw instead takes 4d6 damage. You may now throw your foe at another enemy. If you do so, the second foe takes 4d6 damage and is knocked prone, but gets a Reflex save of DC 14 + your Strength modifier to half the damage and not fall prone. The enemy you hurled falls prone in a clear space of your choice adjacent to the secondary target.
If you are at least level 11, you may throw an enemy you successfully tripped up to 60 feet, causing the thrown creature and all creatures within this line shaped path to take 6d6 points of damage. As usual, the thrown creature lands prone.
If you are at least level 17, you may as a full round action move up to double your speed. For every 10 feet you move you can attempt to throw an opponent via a melee touch attack that doesn't provoke and doesn't allow reaction trips. You can use Str or Dex for this, and you gain a +2 bonus to your check for every 5 feet you have moved. If you succeed in tripping a foe you throw them up to 10 feet where they land prone and take 2d6 damage. For every 5 points by which you beat the check you throw them 5 more feet and they take 1d6 more damage. If you fail a trip attempt you must move an additional 10 feet before attempting to trip them or another opponent again.
Example in use: Someone with a move speed of 30 attempts this, thus they have a double move of 60. They move 15 feet and attempt to trip an opponent and succeed, throwing them 10 feet. They then move 10 more feet, pick them up, and try to throw them again. This time the attempt fails, so they have to move 10 more feet and try again. This time, the thrower succeeds by 6 and hurls his opponent 15'. He moves 15' after and throws them 20 more feet, but only has 10 feet of movement left so he can't do any more throws.
|
|
Realism has vacated the premises. At least, realism as in 'things work as they do on Earth, even though the game world is not Earth'. Which is usually what is meant.
Yup, like I said, if realism (even the jacked up pseudorealism that is DnD) isn't your concern...
My system doesn't fit into the economy of action, although it is darned cool to pull off. Which I think is what most are going for, they know that throwing someone into someone else is hardly an effective combat tactic, but the coolness factor sometimes outweighs the difficulty factor.
|
|
Realism has vacated the premises. At least, realism as in 'things work as they do on Earth, even though the game world is not Earth'. Which is usually what is meant.
Note: The following assumes you wish to make the maneuver worth ever using. If you do not wish it to be worth an action, don't do this. Though why you would want to create something that is useless, I don't know.
Throw effects depend on level.
Anyone may attempt a throw via taking a standard action to make a touch attack. This is resolved as a trip attempt but does not provoke, and your opponent cannot reactively trip you. You can use either Strength or Dexterity for this and get a +4 bonus to the attempt. If you succeed in tripping your foe, you may throw them up to 10 feet away in any direction where they land prone in that square.
If you cannot throw your target into a clear space, it lands prone in its own space. Movement via the throw does not provoke AoOs.
If you are at least level 5, you gain a new option for throws that functions as the previous one except that you must move at least 15 feet before making the standard action attempt, the target falls prone if successfully thrown and takes 2d6 points of damage, and for every 5 points by which you beat his check he flies an additional 5 feet, so getting +10 on the check means you throw your enemy up to 20 feet.
If you are at least level 7, the victim of your throw instead takes 4d6 damage. You may now throw your foe at another enemy. If you do so, the second foe takes 4d6 damage and is knocked prone, but gets a Reflex save of DC 14 + your Strength modifier to half the damage and not fall prone. The enemy you hurled falls prone in a clear space of your choice adjacent to the secondary target.
If you are at least level 11, you may throw an enemy you successfully tripped up to 60 feet, causing the thrown creature and all creatures within this line shaped path to take 6d6 points of damage. As usual, the thrown creature lands prone.
If you are at least level 17, you may as a...
so...the only way to make a combat action that's different from the norm is to resort to Bo9S Maneuvers?
disagree.
-t
|
|
So I decided to try and write these up, let me know what you think.
Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned weighs less than your lift over head capacity you may attempt a combat manuever to throw them. You make a CMB check at -5 penalty, if successful you throw the person 5ft and for every 5 by which the DC is beaten another 5 ft to a max of 20ft. If the creature would pass through an occupied square then compare your CMB check to the creatures DC, if your check beats their DC then the creature thrown ends its movement in the adjacent to the target in the square closest to you and both the creature thrown and the creature struck take 1d6 non-lethal damage per 100lbs of the creature thrown and fall prone. On a miss or if the creature thrown does not pass through an occupied space it moves it's total distance and still takes this non-lethal damage and is prone. You may attempt to throw a creature that is not pinned, this adds +15 to the DC.
Momentum Toss: While in a grapple you may use your strength and momentum to send an opponent flying. This effect resolves like a bullrush except you do not provoke an AoO and you cannot follow the creature tossed even if they move greater than 5ft as a result of your check and you have movement left. If you fail your opponent gets a free attempt to toss you, you may end the grapple to prevent this.
Flip: While in a grapple you may attempt to position an opponent so that you may flip them onto their back painfully. This effect resolves as a trip attempt at a -5 to the attempt. If succesful the opponent takes 1d6 non-lethal damage and is prone, neither you nor the creature are considered grappled at this point. For every 5 by which you beat the DC you may add an additional 1d6 non-lethal damage. For an additional -5 you may deal lethal damage with this manuever.
|
|
So I decided to try and write these up, let me know what you think.
Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned weighs less than your lift over head capacity you may attempt a combat manuever to throw them. You make a CMB check at -5 penalty, if successful you throw the person 5ft and for every 5 by which the DC is beaten another 5 ft to a max of 20ft. If the creature would pass through an occupied square then compare your CMB check to the creatures DC, if your check beats their DC then the creature thrown ends its movement in the adjacent to the target in the square closest to you and both the creature thrown and the creature struck take 1d6 non-lethal damage per 100lbs of the creature thrown and fall prone. On a miss or if the creature thrown does not pass through an occupied space it moves it's total distance and still takes this non-lethal damage and is prone. You may attempt to throw a creature that is not pinned, this adds +15 to the DC.
Momentum Toss: While in a grapple you may use your strength and momentum to send an opponent flying. This effect resolves like a bullrush except you do not provoke an AoO and you cannot follow the creature tossed even if they move greater than 5ft as a result of your check and you have movement left. If you fail your opponent gets a free attempt to toss you, you may end the grapple to prevent this.
Flip: While in a grapple you may attempt to position an opponent so that you may flip them onto their back painfully. This effect resolves as a trip attempt at a -5 to the attempt. If succesful the opponent takes 1d6 non-lethal damage and is prone, neither you nor the creature are considered grappled at this point. For every 5 by which you beat the DC you may add an additional 1d6 non-lethal damage. For an additional -5 you may deal lethal damage with this manuever.
[ooc] remember that having a creature in a succesful grapple adds a +5 to the manuever, so really the -5 are just meant to remove the bonus when attempting these...
Momentum toss and flip i really like. appropriate for realism, easy to adjudicate, and fast.
throw, not so much. i need to know the weight of the enemy NPC's (usually not listed in statblocks, and not on my list of important #'s to consider when scratchbuilding them) or monsters (see above, but SOMETIMES have weights included in the descr.) Perhaps make it a base 2d6 non-lethal damage, and let the CMB's sort out who/what you can throw.
I mean, I was not thinking "Conan" or "Hercules" style throws (pick person up, toss with 2 hands style) so much as judo/aikido/tai-chi throws (redirecting motion more than anything else). To that end, the "bull rush" mechanism seems to reflect what I had in mind.
-t
|
|
So I decided to try and write these up, let me know what you think.
Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned is your size category or smaller, you make a CMB check at -5 penalty, if successful you throw the person 5ft and for every 5 by which the DC is beaten another 5 ft to a max of 20ft. If the creature would pass through an occupied square then compare your CMB check to the creatures whose space is being moved throughs DC, if your check beats their DC then the creature thrown ends its movement in the adjacent to the target in the square closest to you and both the creature thrown and the creature struck take 2d6 non-lethal damage and fall prone. On a miss or if the creature thrown does not pass through an occupied space it moves it's total distance and still takes this non-lethal damage and is prone. For each size category the thrown creature is smaller than medium deduct 1d6 from the damage dealt to the creature struck, for each size category greater than medium add 1d6 to creature struck. You may attempt to throw a creature that is not pinned, this adds +15 to the DC.
Momentum toss and flip i really like. appropriate for realism, easy to adjudicate, and fast.
throw, not so much. i need to know the weight of the enemy NPC's (usually not listed in statblocks, and not on my list of important #'s to consider when scratchbuilding them) or monsters (see above, but SOMETIMES have weights included in the descr.) Perhaps make it a base 2d6 non-lethal damage, and let the CMB's sort out who/what you can throw.
I mean, I was not thinking "Conan" or "Hercules" style throws (pick person up, toss with 2 hands style) so much as judo/aikido/tai-chi throws (redirecting motion more than anything else). To that end, the "bull rush" mechanism seems to reflect what I had in mind.
-t
Well the momentum throw was exactly for those kind of throws, but let me see about the conan style throw cause you make a good point about that. I think there are enough people out there who like conan and herculese type characters to make it worth fixing.
How do you like the bolded fixes, it makes it simpler for a DM to adjudicate. the creature thrown always takes the same damage, but a creature struck takes less depending on the size of the creature thrown into it. I think that makes sense and works. I also added a bit for clarification.
|
|
So I decided to try and write these up, let me know what you think.
Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned is your size category or smaller, you make a CMB check at -5 penalty, if successful you throw the person 5ft and for every 5 by which the DC is beaten another 5 ft to a max of 20ft. If the creature would pass through an occupied square then compare your CMB check to the creatures whose space is being moved throughs DC, if your check beats their DC then the creature thrown ends its movement in the adjacent to the target in the square closest to you and both the creature thrown and the creature struck take 2d6 non-lethal damage and fall prone. On a miss or if the creature thrown does not pass through an occupied space it moves it's total distance and still takes this non-lethal damage and is prone. For each size category the thrown creature is smaller than medium deduct 1d6 from the damage dealt to the creature struck, for each size category greater than medium add 1d6 to creature struck. You may attempt to throw a creature that is not pinned, this adds +15 to the DC.
I would suggest that this is too limiting, especially for super strong characters. Nothing more exciting than having the raging buffed barbarian pick up and throw an ogre across the room! Rather than not allowing the throwing of a larger creature, I'd add the size modifier (or maybe 2x size modifier) to the difficulty of throwing the enemy - and I'd disallow Dex applying to this particular use of the CMB, even with Agile Maneuvers.
Psionic Hamster: Care to elaborate? Because the quoted mechanics do both account for throwing, and make it good enough to be worth using. Which is the point, since any time and effort spent developing a mechanic not worth using is entirely wasted.
They're still on the weak side, though the capstone throw is obviously better. Even so, you'd need haste and perfect conditions just to do 84 damage. That's not that great at level 17+. Anything less than ideal conditions such as enemy is more than 10' away at the start, or any throw attempt fails lowers this. How far you throw them doesn't matter as it is 1d6 per 5' of forced movement with a minimum of 10' regardless, then an equal distance to catch up and hurl again. So distance doesn't matter after that. You'll also be provoking AoOs left, right, and center without being able to reliably make full speed Tumble checks (half speed obviously reduces the effectiveness). Your later throws are not likely to fail, but the early ones probably will. Especially since PF saw fit to nerf everything melees can do more complicated than stabbing it in the face, therefore success rates start at near zero and begin scaling from there. Being able to fling opponents around like ragdolls does address the coolness factor while giving it at least a little meaningful effect so as to justify it ever being used.
It could probably stand to be buffed to D8s and still not be too much.
|
|
I would suggest that this is too limiting, especially for super strong characters. Nothing more exciting than having the raging buffed barbarian pick up and throw an ogre across the room! Rather than not allowing the throwing of a larger creature, I'd add the size modifier (or maybe 2x size modifier) to the difficulty of throwing the enemy - and I'd disallow Dex applying to this particular use of the CMB, even with Agile Maneuvers.
I kinda figured one of those buffs would be enlarge person anyways, that means the barb can still do it. I think that for my brain to accept it, it can't be that much larger in size that the person throwing it, it's not because of weight really, but a body is an increadably terrible shape to throw. it's off balance, it doesn't conform to your grip. Even if the barb is capable of lifting something bigger than him it really doesn't work unless that thing has some sort of paralysis and rigidity (maybe treants?)
|
|
I would suggest that this is too limiting, especially for super strong characters. Nothing more exciting than having the raging buffed barbarian pick up and throw an ogre across the room! Rather than not allowing the throwing of a larger creature, I'd add the size modifier (or maybe 2x size modifier) to the difficulty of throwing the enemy - and I'd disallow Dex applying to this particular use of the CMB, even with Agile Maneuvers.I kinda figured one of those buffs would be enlarge person anyways, that means the barb can still do it. I think that for my brain to accept it, it can't be that much larger in size that the person throwing it, it's not because of weight really, but a body is an increadably terrible shape to throw. it's off balance, it doesn't conform to your grip. Even if the barb is capable of lifting something bigger than him it really doesn't work unless that thing has some sort of paralysis and rigidity (maybe treants?)
I would have to spend some time going over the numbers (this is all off the cuff right now), but I hate to limit melee characters because we don't see how they can perform superhuman feats in the real world.
It's a fundamental issue in D&D, actually. We have real world examples of great fighters, but not wizards - so we put real world limits on melee characters that force them to be weaker than they should. The issue isn't what makes sense in our world. The issue is what can a spell caster do - the fighter should be able to do awesome things similarly not limited by the "real world". This is a mind-set I think designers should really examine in themselve consciously to be sure they're not limiting "mundane" actions too much.
sure, the idea of a barbarian throwing a collossal creature seems ridiculous....but how about stopping time for 18 seconds? So...I want it to be possible for the super strong guy to pick up godzilla and throw him 20 feet. :) not likely, nearly impossible, in fact. But possible. I want a monk to be able to leap from a standing start 50' into the air to hit or grapple that flying creature. I want the rogue to be able to run across a tightrope while shooting a bow. :) at least at very high levels.
|
|
Psionic Hamster: Care to elaborate? Because the quoted mechanics do both account for throwing, and make it good enough to be worth using. Which is the point, since any time and effort spent developing a mechanic not worth using is entirely wasted.
They're still on the weak side, though the capstone throw is obviously better. Even so, you'd need haste and perfect conditions just to do 84 damage. That's not that great at level 17+. Anything less than ideal conditions such as enemy is more than 10' away at the start, or any throw attempt fails lowers this. How far you throw them doesn't matter as it is 1d6 per 5' of forced movement with a minimum of 10' regardless, then an equal distance to catch up and hurl again. So distance doesn't matter after that. You'll also be provoking AoOs left, right, and center without being able to reliably make full speed Tumble checks (half speed obviously reduces the effectiveness). Your later throws are not likely to fail, but the early ones probably will. Especially since PF saw fit to nerf everything melees can do more complicated than stabbing it in the face, therefore success rates start at near zero and begin scaling from there. Being able to fling opponents around like ragdolls does address the coolness factor while giving it at least a little meaningful effect so as to justify it ever being used.
It could probably stand to be buffed to D8s and still not be too much.
perhaps i'm not really reading your proposal properly.
what i am leery of is:
medium monk/swordsage type character moves, engages this maneuver, proceeds to throw (touch attack to start, opposed trip checks following with ridiculous bonuses to the medium creature) a garantuan black dragon time and time again.
said character was played in a game i ran (lvl 18 or so) who proceeded to shut down the rest of the table for over 5 minutes while re resolved multiple throw attempts on said dragon, taking him out of the combat and nullifying an entire (potentially fun) encounter entirely.
now, if you could throw only once, with a limitation on distance/bonus/something similar, i could see it happening. as is, its too over-the-top (and table-stopping-not-fun-for-anyone-else) for my game.
the above suggestions for throws would be fast, easy to adjudicate, provide some variety in combat, and not absolutely insane. while not overtly damaging in and of itself, would let you (standard action) manhandle the enemies, controlling the battlefield a bit, and if specializing in it, could potentially move/knockdown whole masses of enemies while moving.
-t
I usually roll with grapple, Strength check, and fudge the distance...:P
|
|
Psionic Hamster: Care to elaborate? Because the quoted mechanics do both account for throwing, and make it good enough to be worth using. Which is the point, since any time and effort spent developing a mechanic not worth using is entirely wasted.
They're still on the weak side, though the capstone throw is obviously better. Even so, you'd need haste and perfect conditions just to do 84 damage. That's not that great at level 17+. Anything less than ideal conditions such as enemy is more than 10' away at the start, or any throw attempt fails lowers this. How far you throw them doesn't matter as it is 1d6 per 5' of forced movement with a minimum of 10' regardless, then an equal distance to catch up and hurl again. So distance doesn't matter after that. You'll also be provoking AoOs left, right, and center without being able to reliably make full speed Tumble checks (half speed obviously reduces the effectiveness). Your later throws are not likely to fail, but the early ones probably will. Especially since PF saw fit to nerf everything melees can do more complicated than stabbing it in the face, therefore success rates start at near zero and begin scaling from there. Being able to fling opponents around like ragdolls does address the coolness factor while giving it at least a little meaningful effect so as to justify it ever being used.
It could probably stand to be buffed to D8s and still not be too much.
I don't think it's the balance of what your mechanics did that bothered him moreso the utter lack of simulationist approach. I understand where you're coming from with my mechanics (I still would be willing to bet people would be using them though I agree they don't really fit into economy of actions [the fact that between the high DC and defensive combat training feat none of the CMBs really are worth it is a whole nother discussion :D]) but I think they have enough coolness and fun factor to get by, I also tried to make them a little more worthwile by adding conditions like prone and damage.
|
|
I've always said that throwing an opponent is just a more descriptive way of bull rushing or tripping. (Bull rush now works particularly well for simulating a throw, since a bull rush in Pathfinder lets you move an opponent more than 5 feet without having to move along with them.)
I think that's what they were going for, but I've always felt it lacked that "coolness" factor. Plus grappling is really hard and kind of sucks for what you can do with it now. I was hoping my manuevers would give people that "coolness" factor they are looking for while making grappling more interesting and engaging.
Size should not be a limiting factor. If a 20th level barbarian halfling with a net 40 Strength (16 starting, +5 levels, +5 inherent bonus from wishes/manuals, +6 enhancement bonus from a Belt of Giant Strength, +8 from Mighty Rage) wants to throw a 600-lb. ogre, he should be able to.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
This needs to be way harder. First, you should only be able to throw someone who is actually smaller than you. Second, the DC should be way up there, with a maximum of about 10 feet for even the best roll.Never practised judo?If there are feats to increase the action, great.
I'm more concerned with the actual mechanic for doing so in the first place. But Improved Throw/Judo would certainly need to be included in the mix as every other CMB has an improvement feat.
But this is not a combat maneuver. It is something that can be done as a part of a grapple. Improved Grapple benefits already apply.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
Realism has vacated the premises. At least, realism as in 'things work as they do on Earth, even though the game world is not Earth'. Which is usually what is meant.
Note: The following assumes you wish to make the maneuver worth ever using. If you do not wish it to be worth an action, don't do this. Though why you would want to create something that is useless, I don't know.
Throw effects depend on level.
And here is CoL back again with his illogical belief that anything that doesn't cause damage is useless, completely ignoring all the reasons one might wish to spend their action not doing damage.
Anyhow, if it is absolutely necessary for you, then assume there is a 100' drop to your left. Thrown the creature off that. Damage done.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
So I decided to try and write these up, let me know what you think.
Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned weighs less than your lift over head capacity you may attempt a combat manuever to throw them. You make a CMB check at -5 penalty,...
Is this -5 from the +5 circumstance bonus for maintaining the grapple? You should reword this to make it clear.
Ah, I see that later. It should go into the text. The text could simply read "without the +5 circumstance bonus for maintaining the grapple"
But this is not a combat maneuver. It is something that can be done as a part of a grapple. Improved Grapple benefits already apply.This needs to be way harder. First, you should only be able to throw someone who is actually smaller than you. Second, the DC should be way up there, with a maximum of about 10 feet for even the best roll.Never practised judo?If there are feats to increase the action, great.
I'm more concerned with the actual mechanic for doing so in the first place. But Improved Throw/Judo would certainly need to be included in the mix as every other CMB has an improvement feat.
Sorry.
From the way the discussion was reading to me it seemed that Throw was being introduced as a new manuever all to itself. (which is still a decent idea.)There are lots of ways to trip people, and quite a few involve a modicum of grappling. But Trip is a manuever all by itself. For that reason I assumed Throw would as well.
perhaps i'm not really reading your proposal properly.
what i am leery of is:
medium monk/swordsage type character moves, engages this maneuver, proceeds to throw (touch attack to start, opposed trip checks following with ridiculous bonuses to the medium creature) a garantuan black dragon time and time again.
said character was played in a game i ran (lvl 18 or so) who proceeded to shut down the rest of the table for over 5 minutes while re resolved multiple throw attempts on said dragon, taking him out of the combat and nullifying an entire (potentially fun) encounter entirely.
now, if you could throw only once, with a limitation on distance/bonus/something similar, i could see it happening. as is, its too over-the-top (and table-stopping-not-fun-for-anyone-else) for my game.
the above suggestions for throws would be fast, easy to adjudicate, provide some variety in combat, and not absolutely insane. while not overtly damaging in and of itself, would let you (standard action) manhandle the enemies, controlling the battlefield a bit, and if specializing in it, could potentially move/knockdown whole masses of enemies while moving.
Ok, Gargantuan black dragon. That is either a Wyrm or a Great Wyrm. They have about the same relevant stats so either one works. It has a modifier to resist trips of 29. That's 12 size, 13 strength, 4 for the multiple legs. I'm using 3.5 math because the chances of being able to successfully do anything more complicated than stab it in the face are far lower in Pathfinder. For reference, the Pathfinder DC is 69, not counting anything for multiple legs. In order to have any chance at all of this you'd have to have moved at least most of your distance already, then you get in some throws doing very minor damage which is really just going to annoy the dragon. Assuming you don't notice that you are not a magic weapon, therefore your throws are entirely negated by the dragon's mook shield aka DR/Magic. Oops.
If this nullified the dragon, someone at that table did something very wrong. If you could throw only once it would be total garbage not worth considering.
Having to roll a bunch of times is no different from simply full attacking.
Realism has vacated the premises. At least, realism as in 'things work as they do on Earth, even though the game world is not Earth'. Which is usually what is meant.
Note: The following assumes you wish to make the maneuver worth ever using. If you do not wish it to be worth an action, don't do this. Though why you would want to create something that is useless, I don't know.
Throw effects depend on level.
And here is CoL back again with his illogical belief that anything that doesn't cause damage is useless, completely ignoring all the reasons one might wish to spend their action not doing damage.
Anyhow, if it is absolutely necessary for you, then assume there is a 100' drop to your left. Thrown the creature off that. Damage done.
Straw man and troll less. My correct and logical belief is that if you are going to spend your actions doing something, it damn well better be worth doing. Moving the enemy a few feet (maybe) doesn't quite qualify. Killing them qualifies. Rendering them effectively dead via say... blinding qualifies. This is especially true if you have to burn resources just to get basic competence in something. The thing you had to pay for should be better than the thing you have always had for free, otherwise the former was a waste of your resources to obtain.
Throwing enemies off cliffs results in you destroying your own treasure, and 10d6 isn't that much anyways. So now, instead of being a waste of time they are actively counterproductive. Way to go.
My correct and logical belief is that if you are going to spend your actions doing something, it damn well better be worth doing. Moving the enemy a few feet (maybe) doesn't quite qualify.
You know, I thought the exact same thing each and every time somebody wants to try this. I say to myself , "good gosh, they can kill this thing in two hits if they actual just hit it with a sword."
But do they? NoooooooThey wanna throw it.
err why not treat it as a differently flavored bull rush? I mean- that's all you are really doing.. bull rushing them, where they are prone at the end. Make an Imp Bull Rush required feat that leaves the enemy prone at the end- and write the fluff however you wish.
You "hit" a bad guy if the direction of the bull rush sends him into someone else, and some sort of attack roll is made. (or maybe reflex save failed for the one being hit by the body? hrm).
-S
My correct and logical belief is that if you are going to spend your actions doing something, it damn well better be worth doing. Moving the enemy a few feet (maybe) doesn't quite qualify.You know, I thought the exact same thing each and every time somebody wants to try this. I say to myself , "good gosh, they can kill this thing in two hits if they actual just hit it with a sword."
But do they? Nooooooo
They wanna throw it.
Heh, I've noticed the same thing. I think they do it to either:
A) drive me nuts
B) grandstand
The bad thing is, my player who favored such stunts in our last campaign had the tendency to neglect the role within the party in order to do this. As one of our big damage dealers and a respectable tank, this meant that enemies instead swarmed around him ganking the characters he was supposed to be supporting. Meanwhile, he's doing minimal damage so those same enemies (which can't hurt him) are lingering around that much longer inflicting pain upon the others — whom they could hit!
IMO, one player being a gloryhound should never be the primary cause of a TPK...
I can see in certain instances where it would actually be very effective. But those aren't the ones they usually try it on. LoL
Last time one wanted to do it I handed him (the player) the 3E Rules Compendium (wotc) and asked him as innocently as I could to look up the throwing rules. He flipped back and forth for a few minutes and stated "they're not in here" to which all I could do was grin and say "I know, so stop trying it."
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
I can see in certain instances where it would actually be very effective. But those aren't the ones they usually try it on. LoL
Last time one wanted to do it I handed him (the player) the 3E Rules Compendium (wotc) and asked him as innocently as I could to look up the throwing rules. He flipped back and forth for a few minutes and stated "they're not in here" to which all I could do was grin and say "I know, so stop trying it."
If it would only be effective in certain instances then it (1) shouldn't cost a feat, (2) shouldn't be difficult to remember how to do, and (3) shouldn't need new feats to make effective. I think the solutions offered in this thread do the job.
Why might you want to throw someone 10' to your left?
Yes, all of these are circumstantial but that's why it should be easy-to-understand and cheap.
And, yes, the last time a PC tried this, it was a waste of a move. The time before that, the PC was on a bridge.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
Straw man and troll less. My correct and logical belief is that if you are going to spend your actions doing something, it damn well better be worth doing. Moving the enemy a few feet (maybe) doesn't quite qualify. Killing them qualifies. Rendering them effectively dead via say... blinding qualifies. This is especially true if you have to burn resources just to get basic competence in something. The thing you had to pay for should be better than the thing you have always had for free, otherwise the former was a waste of your resources to obtain.
|
|
Size should not be a limiting factor. If a 20th level barbarian halfling with a net 40 Strength (16 starting, +5 levels, +5 inherent bonus from wishes/manuals, +6 enhancement bonus from a Belt of Giant Strength, +8 from Mighty Rage) wants to throw a 600-lb. ogre, he should be able to.
Feel free to make whatever changes to my mechanics that you would like for your game. I've already said it's not an issue of size or strength but an issue of the terribly poor throwing tool a body makes, a large size creature even if you picked it up would be able to touch the ground unless you were holding it in a very peculiar manner and it wasn't squirming at all. But if you like the mechanic, feel free to take it, remove the if the creature is your size category or smaller line and have fun. It's not going to kill me if you use my mechanic with a minor change for yourself, I'll still be perfectly happy that people are out there using my mechanics :)
|
|
So I decided to try and write these up, let me know what you think.
Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned weighs less than your lift over head capacity you may attempt a combat manuever to throw them. You make a CMB check at -5 penalty,...
Is this -5 from the +5 circumstance bonus for maintaining the grapple? You should reword this to make it clear.
Ah, I see that later. It should go into the text. The text could simply read "without the +5 circumstance bonus for maintaining the grapple"
That's a really good idea, I'll fix them and repost them with that change.
|
|
So I decided to try and write these up with the board suggested fixes, let me know what you think. Note that now you can throw a creature of any size it just gets progressively harder for each size category larger than you.
Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned, you make a CMB check without the +5 circumstance bonus for maintaining the grapple. Creature that are larger than you add +4 to the DC for every size category larger than yours. If successful you throw the creature 5ft and for every 5 by which the DC is beaten another 5 ft to a max of 20ft. If the creature would pass through an occupied square then compare your CMB check to the creatures whose space is being moved throughs DC, if your check beats their DC then the creature thrown ends its movement in an adjacent space to the target in the square closest to you. Both the creature thrown and the creature struck take 2d6 non-lethal damage and fall prone. On a miss or if the creature thrown does not pass through an occupied space it moves it's total distance and still takes this non-lethal damage and is prone. For each size category the thrown creature is smaller than medium deduct 1d6 from the damage dealt to the creature struck, for each size category greater than medium a add 1d6 to creature struck. You may attempt to throw a creature that is not pinned, this adds +15 to the DC.
Momentum Toss: While in a grapple you may use your strength and momentum to send an opponent flying. This effect resolves like a bullrush except you do not provoke an AoO and you cannot follow the creature tossed even if they move greater than 5ft as a result of your check and you have movement left. If you fail your opponent gets a free attempt to toss you, you may end the grapple to prevent this.
Flip: While in a grapple you may attempt to position an opponent so that you may flip them onto their back painfully. This effect resolves as a trip attempt without the +5 circumstance bonus for maintaining the grapple. If succesful the opponent takes 1d6 non-lethal damage and is prone, neither you nor the creature are considered grappled at this point. For every 5 by which you beat the DC you may add an additional 1d6 non-lethal damage. For an additional -5 you may deal lethal damage with this manuever.
See, what I'd like to see is some hard, fast rules regarding using living, heavy objects as improvised weapons. Then we can roll throwing someone into the rules for this.
That way we can catch all cases where you'd use an unwilling target as an improvised weapon, whether for throwing, as a club, or even as a human shield.
.
Let's start with Improvised Weapon rules. It says to pick a weapon that's similar to your object held (in relative size), and give it those stats, excepting the whole crit 20/x2 and 10ft range increment stuff.
So if your pinned opponent is a Halfling, you could say he's like a Greatclub in relative size, right? Since we are talking about a thing that simultaneously weighs a lot more, and is likely fighting his pin, I'd say slap on an extra -4 "unwieldy" penalty to attacks with him.
Now we can say what actions are possible based on the target's weight and strengths of the characters.
So something like the following:
Additional Rules when Pinning an Opponent
Living Weapon
If your target weighs less than your light load, and is a size smaller than you, you can use them as an improvised melee or thrown weapon. Use the Improvised Weapon rules to determine the damage. Due to the weight and unwieldy nature, you take a -8 non proficiency penalty to attacks and the range increment is only 5ft.
Keep in mind that a thrown weapon's max thrown range is 5x the range increment. So -2 penalty per 5ft up to 25ft. This is a fairly realistic maximum range, if you consider sliding along the ground into the distance and the fact that they are smaller.
Each time the victim is used this way, they may make an attempt to break the grapple at a +4 bonus. Success means the grapple is ended, however the victim will fall prone.
This is the same bonus as moving the victim involuntarily into a harmful square.
You may attack with your victim in one of two ways.
Targeted Attack: You may attack a creature or object as you would with a normal weapon. Damage is dealt to both the creature or object struck, as well as the pinned target.
Area Attack: You may attack a square instead of a particular object or creature. The attack automatically hits the victim (unless the victim breaks the grapple first), while anyone occupying the space must make a Reflex save (DC 15 plus the pinned victim's size modifier), or be dealt damage.
Large creatures and larger being wielded as a weapon can strike an amount of squares and shape that they would occupy normally.
A Titan (Huge) picking up and wielding a horse (Large/Long) as a weapon would be able to strike 2 spaces at once as an area attack. The Reflex DC would be 16, and deal damage in the manner of 3d8 + Str or so (Greatclub damage for a Huge creature).
.
Flip
If your target is the same size as you or larger, and less than your Heavy Load, you may throw them to the ground. The target lands prone in a square of your choosing within your reach plus 5ft. The target is dealt 1d6 + Str damage.
If a creature is occupying that space, they may make a Reflex save (DC 15 + size modifier) or is dealt damage as if they were hit by an object that had fallen 10 feet. The victim lands in an adjacent legal space.
Since this is more like guided falling damage, it's using fixed damage instead of improvised weapon damage.
.
Living Shield
If your target weighs less than your Medium load, and is the same size as you or up to two sizes smaller, you may use them as a living shield. You treat them as a Heavy Shield for purposes of AC and Bash damage. Use the Living Weapon rules for attack and damage.
Also, you may use the victim as Cover, similar to a Tower Shield.
Since they are not simply in the way, but actually held next to your body, they are not treated as Soft Cover.
A same sized target provides normal Cover bonuses. A smaller target provides Partial Cover.
Additionally, you may use a same sized target to gain Improved Cover. Doing so however causes any movement to be considered Hampered in addition to normal movement limitations due to the Grappled condition.
.
.
Now here's some interesting feat and skill additions that compliment these maneuvers.
Improved Grapple: Add a clause indicating that upon successfully pinning your target, you may make an immediate additional Pin maneuver.
This means it may take an untrained person somewhere between 12 and 18 seconds (3 rounds) to throw someone to the ground or make them a human shield. A trained person can do this between 6 and 12 seconds (2 rounds).
For a "quick toss" in the style of Judo would be more appropriate as a feat extending the abilities of the Trip mechanic, since those tosses tend to land and slide instead of the "pick up and throw" style emulated by the Pin maneuver.
Intimidate: Convince someone to allow you to pin them. Basically, start a grapple and then convince them verbally to stop struggling. A bonus would apply if you wielded a weapon and they did not.
This allows the BBEG to grab a player/NPC and do the whole "hold a gun to their head/knife to their throat while using them as a human shield" trick. At which point he delivers his speech and slowly moves away from the heroes (hampered movement) while the archers are deciding if they can risk shooting the BBEG while he has Improved Cover (or possibly striking the hostage instead).
Oh, and throwing a willing person would just be an Aid Another check with the thrown person doing a Bull Rush or Overrun maneuver.
I seem to recall seeing a picture in the d20 Modern book with one person swinging another around to attack someone with a flying kick as the "example" of Aid Another rules.
|
|
Oh, and throwing a willing person would just be an Aid Another check with the thrown person doing a Bull Rush or Overrun maneuver.
I seem to recall seeing a picture in the d20 Modern book with one person swinging another around to attack someone with a flying kick as the "example" of Aid Another rules.
Not quite, theres no way to throw a person into another person without hurting them. Well if the person being thrown went limp and the person being hit was trying to catch and did so succesfully. But other then that, it isn't that easy ;) well least not in real life.