What do you think?
Bards are typically 1~2 spell levels behind all the other casters, and still can't match those casters in melee or special abilities. Plus all the bards spells are generally at the same level as the other classes compounding the problem because those other classes have been casting that spell for several levels.
I think bards need a little faster progression on spell levels. NOT more spells per day, NOT more spells levels, just a little faster progression than they currently have.
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What do you think?
Bards are typically 1~2 spell levels behind all the other casters, and still can't match those casters in melee or special abilities. Plus all the bards spells are generally at the same level as the other classes compounding the problem because those other classes have been casting that spell for several levels.
I think bards need a little faster progression on spell levels. NOT more spells per day, NOT more spells levels, just a little faster progression than they currently have.
There are really multiple ways to address the real root problem:
Spells increase in power exponentially. Gaining access to higher level spells later and never gaining access to the top three levels of spells is a significant disparity in spellcasting power between two classes. Add in the disparity in save DCs due to spell level and even the solution of granting higher level spells in full spellcasting lists at a lower level in partial lists doesn't solve the issue.
There are some ideas in my head. The bard spell list could be changed up a bit more to grant either more higher levels spells at a lower bardic spell level (this might cause some serious problems with arcane scrolls!) or more bard specific spells. If the vast majority of these spells don't require a save (don't have a save or are a buff or something), then we can ignore the DC problem. Otherwise at high levels the bard is still unable to compete because his spell DCs on his best spells are lower than full casters' spell DCs on their best spells.
Some possible solutions to this problem are Spell DC bonuses to bards, bonus feats such as spell focus (enchantment) or spell focus (illusion), or some sort of check that might allow a bard to increase the Save DCs of his spells.
I have to say, I don't think this is a good solution. Personally, I've always seen magic as a sort of ancillary feature of the class (behind performance). They're more magical than a paladin or ranger (for whom magic is really a little pointless), but I don't think they're supposed to be anywhere near the 'main casters'. I've always just seen bardic magic as "A few extra tricks here and there in a pinch". I've never thought of them as completely replacing a wizard. What I'd personally like to see is an improvement in performance rather than spells, or a few tricks similar to the rogue talents.
What do you think?
Bards are typically 1~2 spell levels behind all the other casters, and still can't match those casters in melee or special abilities. Plus all the bards spells are generally at the same level as the other classes compounding the problem because those other classes have been casting that spell for several levels.
I think bards need a little faster progression on spell levels. NOT more spells per day, NOT more spells levels, just a little faster progression than they currently have.
I would like to see a faster spell progression which includes slightly higher maximums to spells known and spells per day (a bump of 1 to each would work). Bardic spells aren't powerful, but are useful and I still think Bards are an underpar class so the resource increase would help boost the class up a bit.
Yeah I'm kind of feeling the hate to bards on the boards alot. I mean paladins, clerics, barbarians, fighters, rogues, monks, rangers and wizards all seem to have gotten lots of loving with new abilities and the like but everyone is like, "OH NO we can't give the bard anything that would be too powerful."
I think a slightly faster progression would really help the bard stay relevant in those middle levels. Everytime something comes up and my bard can (FINALLY) handle something with his magical knack it's either, "Don't bother we are all immune now to wizard's xxx spell" or "cleric has already cure us all of that healed back all our HP, and buffed us up... why are you around again?"
Having played bards, I actually like the progression. It's slower than the wizard, yes, but it's still really good. The bard gets a really nice selection of spells and though it's spaced out, you don't really notice as much since you focus on more than just them.
Yeah I'm kind of feeling the hate to bards on the boards alot. I mean paladins, clerics, barbarians, fighters, rogues, monks, rangers and wizards all seem to have gotten lots of loving with new abilities and the like but everyone is like, "OH NO we can't give the bard anything that would be too powerful."
I think a slightly faster progression would really help the bard stay relevant in those middle levels. Everytime something comes up and my bard can (FINALLY) handle something with his magical knack it's either, "Don't bother we are all immune now to wizard's xxx spell" or "cleric has already cure us all of that healed back all our HP, and buffed us up... why are you around again?"
Well, the problem is, we aren't hearing a ton of suggestions for 'new' bard things, and a lot that were suggested were from the 'let's go back to the 1e/2e bard' crowd, who didn't want bards as performers. I wouldn't really call this a new thing, I would call this an acceleration of something that's already there. Personally, I see your argument, I think a lot of us just disagree that more spells are the direction in which the bard needs a boost.
I've seen lots of good suggestions for the bard come up from the "1st ed/ 2nd ed" crowds that I think got overlooked or misinterprited. Yes we want more of the "generalist" feel back, but we don't want to take away the bard's music, we want the bard to be a better choice like he was in 1st and 2nd edition.
1. making bardic music (inspire courage) a swift action instead of standard (or at least tone it down to a move action)
2. bardic talents in ADDITION to the current bardic music.
3. MORE bardic performance choices (as it stands there are two types of bardic performance making it look like they should all be class features -- break them up more/add more according to the type of performance that is being done). I've personally suggested breaking it up some like domains/ specialty schools. This makes a lot of sense, different types of performers in real life might recognise each other as performers, but they do very different things and get very different results (a lot like different clerics of different gods, or different wizards of different schools). The mechanics are there, and would expand the bard's flavor.
4. Take the skill point tax away.
I think all of these together would make the bard a viable choice for a 4 person party. I feel if the class is "core" to the game it should be able to stand on it's own in a 4 person party, otherwise it's not good enough and needs added to.
People say the bard "is the best 5th person for a party" but he isn't truthfully a 5 person party would be better off with another wizard or cleric or rogue, not someone who can't keep up on his own.
My final problem is an effective bard (i.e. one that uses his best abilities to the best benefit to the party) can be easily handled as a cohort instead of "My character sings again to inspire courage and moves to help the rogue flank, even though I won't get an attack... again."
My final problem is an effective bard (i.e. one that uses his best abilities to the best benefit to the party) can be easily handled as a cohort instead of "My character sings again to inspire courage and moves to help the rogue flank, even though I won't get an attack... again."
"I'll keep up my +4 Inspire Courage, move to assist Stabby McShort with flanking, and stab that guy....ok guys, I'm gonna start throwing Holds and Suggestions on the enemy meatshields next turn, so you've only got 5 more turns of gravy from me to wrap this up!". Damn it sucks being a 5th level Bard. And I'm not even going into Song of the heart, Words of Creation, Slippers of Battle Dancing or Snowflake Wardance.
"I'll keep up my +4 Inspire Courage, move to assist Stabby McShort with flanking, and stab that guy....ok guys, I'm gonna start throwing Holds and Suggestions on the enemy meatshields next turn, so you've only got 5 more turns of gravy from me to wrap this up!". Damn it sucks being a 5th level Bard. And I'm not even going into Song of the heart, Words of Creation, Slippers of Battle Dancing or Snowflake Wardance.
1. The bonus at fifth level is + 2 from inspire courage not +4.
2. Those meatshields if they understand you are now aiming for you. After all you just told them you are going to be casting magic on them, which means you might have just violated your future suggestion already (read spell discription, as it is worded oddly).3. All the rest of your suggestions are non core, which means while we should anticipate that they might be available we must also assume they won't be (they aren't in any of my areas local campaigns) either becuase of the DM or lack of books.
4. You can't design a base class around features that aren't going to be available by the class well (see the fighter for the problems that causes).
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I would like more bard-only spells to make bard casting relevent at higher levels. More spells like Inspirational Boost from the spell compendium, that increase the effectiveness of bardic performances. bard only spells that provide larger bonuses than the Eagles Splendor +4 to charisma. Bard specific enchantments, buffs and maybe even illusions. Glibness is fun - what else can we do to give bards some fun options that you can't get any other way.
I would like bards to naturally be able to hide the fact that they're spellcasting as well. Maybe they have a class ability that with a Peform (if that skill still exists) or Bluff or Sleight of Hand or Diplomacy check they have the ability to not only cast while performing, but have the ability to hide that they're casting. You never know when that bard has seamlessly cast Glibness during his performance to the king, before unloading some ridiculous but somehow believable whoppers on the entire royal court.
random thought alert: In conjunction with the desire to add intimidate to bard skills, they should have a "curse" performance, like bards that cursed those who failed to show them hospitality in ancient Celtic cultures. Rather than the temporary nature of the dirge of doom or the fear song, something closer to the "Geas" spell.
1. The bonus at fifth level is + 2 from inspire courage not +4.
2. Those meatshields if they understand you are now aiming for you. After all you just told them you are going to be casting magic on them, which means you might have just violated your future suggestion already (read spell discription, as it is worded oddly).
3. All the rest of your suggestions are non core, which means while we should anticipate that they might be available we must also assume they won't be (they aren't in any of my areas local campaigns) either becuase of the DM or lack of books.
4. You can't design a base class around features that aren't going to be available by the class well (see the fighter for the problems that causes).
1. Who said anything about 5th level?
2. Why do you assume he said just those words in character? The Bard was singing at the time.3. He specifically didn't make those other suggestions, merely noting them as something else that could be discussed. It's been my observation that bards make out like bandits with almost all noncore material.
4. ?
"I'll keep up my +4 Inspire Courage, move to assist Stabby McShort with flanking, and stab that guy....ok guys, I'm gonna start throwing Holds and Suggestions on the enemy meatshields next turn, so you've only got 5 more turns of gravy from me to wrap this up!". Damn it sucks being a 5th level Bard. And I'm not even going into Song of the heart, Words of Creation, Slippers of Battle Dancing or Snowflake Wardance.
1. Right there, in the bold.
2. If he didn't say it in character then he didn't say it to the group, he may be thinking something on those lines but out of character verses in character.3. Bards make out like bandits with non core material just like everyone else does, but we don't use non core material when discussing the other classes do we? So we don't use it here, otherwise we might as well say "Non core fixes it all so we don't need to fix core". People still want more from smite evil for their paladin becuase "It misses too often, doesn't do enough" even though they could just take non core extra smite feats. Or saying the cleric and wizard classes don't need fixing becuase reserved feats are available non core.
4. We are redesigning 3.x. Yes we are making another 3.x but with all the changes that are that have been made we might as well admit pathfinder is different (still compatible). 1ed and 2ed where different but mostly compatible.
We have a chance here to bring the bard back up to speed, why is this a bad thing? Look at the cleric, wizard, rogue, barbarian, and paladin... now why can't we do something like that for the bard?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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For me the additional spells are just right.
I've a soft spot for the bard, he's kind of the 'advanced' class, not as overwhelming as the wizard, but takes a certain level of skill to balance correctly.
I'd rather strengthen the perform and the JOAT of the bard, moreso than the spell slinging.
1. Right there, in the bold.
2. If he didn't say it in character then he didn't say it to the group, he may be thinking something on those lines but out of character verses in character.
3. Bards make out like bandits with non core material just like everyone else does, but we don't use non core material when discussing the other classes do we? So we don't use it here, otherwise we might as well say "Non core fixes it all so we don't need to fix core". People still want more from smite evil for their paladin becuase "It misses too often, doesn't do enough" even though they could just take non core extra smite feats. Or saying the cleric and wizard classes don't need fixing becuase reserved feats are available non core.
4. We are redesigning 3.x. Yes we are making another 3.x but with all the changes that are that have been made we might as well admit pathfinder is different (still compatible). 1ed and 2ed where different but mostly compatible.We have a chance here to bring the bard back up to speed, why is this a bad thing? Look at the cleric, wizard, rogue, barbarian, and paladin... now why can't we do something like that for the bard?
1. *facepalm*
2. My point was calling him on the exact wording isn't fair.3. It is entirely reasonable to keep noncore stuff in mind, even if you can't balance off the assumption that every given bard will have access to it. That's all I'm saying.
4. I still don't see your point.
And I am all for making the bard better, but his spellcasting is fine. It might be nice to toss another spell or two onto his spell list at higher levels to let him deal with multiple people a little more easily, but he doesn't need more spells known/per day. When I played bards in 3.5, my problem wasn't that my spellcasting was poor, but that I always used it instead of my bardic music. My music just wasn't as good an option as casting a spell most of the time.
Another vote for "Just right."
No no no I don't want more spells known, and I don't nessecarily want more spells per day, I just want spell access a little earilier. So that 4th level spells start at say 8th level (0 spells per day) then 1 4th level spell per day at 9th level and the normal progression with 4th level spells after that... Same with fifth level and sixth level spells. This would mean that the bard would only be one spell level behind everyone else while still not upping his overall power at higher levels. Here is the chart I would use:
Level -- spell level
# -- 1st -- 2nd -- 3rd -- 4th -- 5th -- 6th
1 -- 1
2 -- 2
3 -- 3
4 -- 3 -- 1
5 -- 4 -- 2
6 -- 4 -- 3 -- 0
7 -- 4 -- 3 -- 1
8 -- 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 0
9 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3 -- 1
10 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3 -- 1
11 -- 5 -- 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 0
12 -- 5 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3 -- 1
13 -- 5 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3 -- 1
14 -- 5 -- 5 -- 4 -- 4 -- 2 -- 0
15 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3 -- 1
16 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3 -- 1
17 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 4 -- 4 -- 2
18 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3
19 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 4
20 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5 -- 5
See? He gets the same number of spells by level 20, but instead of being 1 or 2 spell levels behind up through level 7 to level 14 he is consistantly only 1 level behind. This helps the bard stay current with regards to sepps while still generally being just behind even the sorcerer in spell level progression. Mainly this would help in the mid range of play from level 8 through level 16.
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I would like more bard-only spells to make bard casting relevent at higher levels. More spells like Inspirational Boost from the spell compendium, that increase the effectiveness of bardic performances. bard only spells that provide larger bonuses than the Eagles Splendor +4 to charisma. Bard specific enchantments, buffs and maybe even illusions. Glibness is fun - what else can we do to give bards some fun options that you can't get any other way.
Total agreement. I'd be totally in favor of more bard-only spells, especially higher-level ones... anything that makes the bard more of an attractive alternative for reasons beyond the simple fun role-playing aspects is a plus IMHO.
Yes Yes, the bard is a great class for the role playing and what not, but from a class features point of view they just don't compare, and that's sad.
+1 from Inspirational Boost (SpC), +1 from the very cheap Badge of Valor (MiC). Just the easy pick-me ups gets you +4 at 5th level, there's a lot more available for the determined Bard. Playing core-only never crossed my mind - too dull.
Well almost everyone in my area is dead set on core only (I agree it's very dull) but it does happen, and some players don't have access to anything but core (no extra money to buy all the other books) and with everything but core from WotC out of print now, just finding the books is going to get to be a problem.
This leads to a need of any new development of the "core" classes to be built so that they are competent from the ground up. The bard just really isn't. I love the bard class, it's fun as a concept but it just doesn't hold up mechanically on its own.
My feeling is that every core class should be able to be part of a 4 person party and not cause trouble for the party. The "fighter" slot can be filled with a barbarian, ranger, paladin, or fighter. The "arcane" slot can be filled with a wizard, sorcerer, or some of the odder cleric builds. The "divine" slot can be filled with a cleric, or druid, and the bard should be able to fill here as well, but it can't hold its own. The "rogue" can be handled by a rogue, monk, ranger, or well designed wizard or cleric, but the bard doesn't really bring much to hold here either other than the fact it gets 6+ skill points, 2 of which have to be spent on perform if he wants all the currently available class abilities.
Truthfully the closest to any of the "traditional 4" the bard comes to is the cleric. He can't dish the damage a fighter, rogue, or wizard can but he has good buffs (that come too late), healing ability, and some limited combat ability.
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I have seen the spell DC issue come up repeatedly in these bard discussions. People are absolutely correct when they state that the spell DCs for bardic magic will become too low for effective use at higher levels.
A simple suggested fix for this is to add a class ability that increases bardic spell DCs by 1 at several strategic levels. No need for new spells, no need for a new progression, but it would beef up the DCs to be closer to that of a full caster. Perhaps a +1 to spell DC at every 5th level?
I have seen the spell DC issue come up repeatedly in these bard discussions. People are absolutely correct when they state that the spell DCs for bardic magic will become too low for effective use at higher levels.
A simple suggested fix for this is to add a class ability that increases bardic spell DCs by 1 at several strategic levels. No need for new spells, no need for a new progression, but it would beef up the DCs to be closer to that of a full caster. Perhaps a +1 to spell DC at every 5th level?
We've been playtesting a PRPG bard a lot lately. I thinks captures one of the real issues the bard has in our games.
He's a member of a midlevel party. The adventures are a wide mix of things, based in an urban environment. Politics and intrigue feature prominently in it, but there are at least three involved combats in each session. The other party members are a Cleric, an Evoker, a Fighter/Scout, and a Fighter. The bard build is meant to be a wandering performer
The bard is clearly the support caster in the game, and has access to some pretty useful spells. But the player has, through the course of playing, fallen back solely on buff spells and summon spells, with the occasionally role-playing friendly spell like Tongues worked in.
There are two reasons the player identified for this: 1) straight-up offensive spells like Confusion or Hold Person are rarely that helpful in a large battle and 2) even if they were useful, too many enemies make their saving throws consistently to be effective. When Slow works, it works well. It just doesn't work that often. The same goes for out of combat spells like Charm or Sleep that are used in intrigue.
No one will deny the power of Hold Person, but when the average save DC for the level is two to three points higher, it means the Bard has to invest in high-Charisma boosting gear to catch up to deal with equivalent opponents. None of their spells have a "half-damage" mechanic that makes the spell tempting anyway.
This isn't a huge problem: In combat a Creature-Summon, Haste-Slinging, Dispel Wielding bard has proven to be a great support caster. We are all greatly in favor of the new Bard List and some of the downright devious things a clever bard can do. A small tweak like the one above can do wonders.
My position is bard should have sorceror spell progression and number of spells but with a spell list limited to enchantments, summonings, and a few sound based spells. This would make the bard a viable caster. It really doesn't make sense that other casters are better at enchantments than bards are.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've got to disagree Friendly Goblin,
The Bard is a JOAT, a tinkerer. It makes sense to me that he's not as good at enchantment spells as a full on 'Hi, my skillst, combat ability, and hitpoints suck because I've dedicated my life to magic'
In 2e I actually added time it took to transcribe a bardic spell book because it was a dabbler's book. "Page one. Half of Read Magic, then part of a song lyric. Page 2, a sketch of a river, with the second half of magic missile crammed in the margins. Page 3, a receipe for pie, and the second half of read magic...."
I don't mind that the bard doesn't have the higher level spells, he's not supposed to be magic central, but in a campaign going to 15th level a bard is never going to be able to cast 'measily' 6th level spells, even as everyone else is firing off 7th and 8th level spells. If a person wanted to be an arcanist/fighter/buff/etc type they would be better off taking 6 levels in sorcerer, 2 in fighter, 7 in eldritch knight, or simply 15 levels in cleric. That way they at least get sixth level spells and a base attack bonus of + 12... 1 better than the bards, with 9d10 and 6d6 hit dice, OR eighth level spells and 2 domains plus the same bab and hit die as the bard.
As it stands the bard is like a cohort, he can do what your party was doing 2 levels ago, but not quite as well. Or in the case of spells 4~5 levels ago!
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My vote is for spontaneous casting linked with perform. Bards are chaotic, their spells should be based upon it. (which is weird since music in itself is a very lawful discipline.)
Perhaps a class ability that increases the DC based upon their Perform, like +1DC/5 ranks of their highest perform skill.
+1 from Inspirational Boost (SpC), +1 from the very cheap Badge of Valor (MiC). Just the easy pick-me ups gets you +4 at 5th level, there's a lot more available for the determined Bard.
Yeah, the maximum non-total-cheese bonus (ie, ignoring Words of Creation) at level 5 is +5; Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, and Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting). Which is a completely insane bonus at that level, effectively doubling the Fighter's BAB and trebling or quadrupling everyone else's - then adding extra damage per hit on top, just for kicks.