The CMB is not reduced as far as I've read when you try multiple special maneuvers.
So you could attempt to disarm 4 times (with a high level fighter) in a round, with no increase of difficulty.
But "normal" attacks bonuses decreased at each attack, and often third and fourth attack for high level fighters are a miss.
It could too much tempting to attack 2 times, and use the last two attacks for disarming, sundering, tripping.
Am I the only one that think it could be a problem ?
I'm confused on this as well.
When you perform a combat maneuver, make an attack
roll and add your CMB to the result plus any bonuses you
might have due to specific feats or abilities.
Does this mean roll a d20 with all your normal bonuses and then add your CMB? Or do you roll a d20 and add just your CMB? Basically, do your strength and BAB count twice?
If you get all your normal bonuses then Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse would both matter, because Agile maneuvers only affects the CMB, and Weapon Finesse only affects the attack roll.
3rd level Fighter with 18 Dex, 16 Str, using a rapier, rolls a 10 on a d20 to perform a disarm:
CMB (BAB 3 + Str 3 + Size 0) + attack roll (10 + Str 3 + BAB 3)= 22
Now with Weapon Finesse:
CMB (BAB 3 + Str 3 + Size 0) + attack roll (10 + Dex 4 + BAB 3)= 23
Now with Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers:
CMB (BAB 3 + Dex 4 + Size 0) + attack roll (10 + Dex 4 + BAB 3)= 24
Of course if you don't get all your normal bonuses on the attack roll, weapon finesse has no affect at all.
I would love some clarification here. I don't think I'll be attempting many Combat Maneuvers if bonuses don't add to the attack roll. If the target number is 15 + the opponent's CMB, then a first level fighter will only successfully disarm a 1st level wizard about half the time.
I think.
Ok, so I found this thread:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha3/combatMagic/combatManeuvers
It says that you don't add any bonuses to the roll, so yes, you should always use your suckiest attacks, no, it's not usually going to work, and oddly, magic weapons, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Finesse have no affect on Combat Maneuvers at all.
Ok, I admit, I'm having too much fun with this, and I apologize if I have missed something, but...
FIGHTER Level 1 "Ursord Ismine"
Human
STR 10
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 13
WIS and CHA equal to whatever...
FEATS:
1st level: Agile Maneuvers
Human: Combat Expertise
Fighter Bonus Feat: Improved Disarm
Now comes the fun part. We give him two sai. It's ok he doesn't know which end is up, cause we gave him two!!
BAB=1
CMB=1 (5 with agile maneuvers!)
Moral of the story? his attacks are at -8/-12 once you factor in non-proficiency and dual wielding. So a naked villager with with no dex bonus is more than he can handle most of the time.
BUT!!!!
He gets two attempts to disarm at...let me think...+11!!!!!
For sport, at level two we'll give him Combat Reflexes and maybe switch his weapon to something with reach like a spiked chain. LOL.
I was under the assumption that a Combat Maneuver was a standard action, so you couldn't make 2 maneuvers in the same round...
This does seem a bit borked...
Jason, if you're still lurking....
I was under the assumption that a Combat Maneuver was a standard action, so you couldn't make 2 maneuvers in the same round...
Page 150:
"When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While most combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action (in place of a melee attack), others require specif ic actions."(...)
"You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge."
(...)
"You can attempt to disarm your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack."
(...)
"As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options."
Page 151:
"As a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square."
(...)
"You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack."
(...)
"You can attempt to trip an opponent as a melee attack."
The CMB is not reduced as far as I've read when you try multiple special maneuvers.
So you could attempt to disarm 4 times (with a high level fighter) in a round, with no increase of difficulty.
But "normal" attacks bonuses decreased at each attack, and often third and fourth attack for high level fighters are a miss.
It could too much tempting to attack 2 times, and use the last two attacks for disarming, sundering, tripping.
Am I the only one that think it could be a problem ?
No, you are not the only one. I myself am uncertain if the intended rule was as you mentioned (and as other people noticed during the Playtest) OR if the CMB formula uses the lowered BaB for multiple attacks.
Only time will tell...
All those bonuses on attackng with your CMB roll will mean thta 15+CMB will be worthless DC that everyone will always hit.
If you're going to add STR modifiers, BAB, True Strike, Bless, etc., to the CMB roll, then you need to add defense modifiers to the DC.
If you don't, then your D&D sessions will quickly go like this:
DM: A giant purple worm bursts out of the earth before you!
Fred: I won the initiative, I throw my sword on the ground and jump on the purple worm to grapple it.
Not good, not good...
It could too much tempting to attack 2 times, and use the last two attacks for disarming, sundering, tripping.
Am I the only one that think it could be a problem ?
For what it's worth, this is also a good strategy in D&D 3.x. You attack with your first two (maybe three) attacks for damage. Against many opponents, an attack at -10 is likely to miss (even more so at -15). However, trip or disarm is a touch attack followed by a Strength check. Even at -15, a touch attack is likely to succeed and the Strength check doesn't suffer the -15 penalty.
I'm not sure that something that encourages a strategy other than "I stand there and swing my sword" is problem.
It certainly works that way for Trip attempts (and strangely enough, grapple, which isn't affected by iterative penalties), but NOt for disarm attempts. A disarm check is made using whatever attack bonus you have at the time, so if you use your last iterative attack, you WILL lose that disarm check, and then the opponent gets to try to disarm YOU...at his highest BAB.
So kids, when trying to disarm, always attempt it on your FIRST attack. And hey, if it succeeds, you can end your attack and use a move action to pick up the opponent's weapon. They don't threaten you anymore unless they have Improved Unarmed Strike.
It certainly works that way for Trip attempts (and strangely enough, grapple, which isn't affected by iterative penalties), but NOt for disarm attempts. A disarm check is made using whatever attack bonus you have at the time, so if you use your last iterative attack, you WILL lose that disarm check, and then the opponent gets to try to disarm YOU...at his highest BAB.
So kids, when trying to disarm, always attempt it on your FIRST attack. And hey, if it succeeds, you can end your attack and use a move action to pick up the opponent's weapon. They don't threaten you anymore unless they have Improved Unarmed Strike.
I assume you were still talking about 3rd ed.
My point was that the new system is messed up. I'm not saying the old system wasn't. But with a few (and I do mean few) feats, I can easily disarm several times a round at huge bonuses, from range, and toss weapons 15 feet away from the victims.
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OK 2 parts to this, first to remind everyone that CMB as it is stated in Beta is whacked. As stated in Beta, CMB is an attack roll, to which the CMB formula is added. This results in a net modifier of d20+(2xBAB)+(2xSTR Mod). Obviously that was not the intention. It was stated they were going to fix that, but we'll see. If they didn't fix it, all melee types with be throwing down their weapons to grapple everything. Bad bad.
As far as this thread goes, (and assuming they fixed the above bug) since Maneuvers are attack rolls, and uses the BAB as a component to the formula, each attack would have the iterative attack penalty. Each attack would see your CMB go down -5, each time (assuming they fixed it).
As far as using CMBs for third and fourth attacks, it is a bad idea from the get go. You do NOT use Touch AC as your target. Your target DC is 15+your opponent's CMB! Armor has nothing to do with it.
So, assuming my opponent has an AC of 31, BAB of 18 and STR Mod of +3...
I have a BAB of 18, STR Mod of +3, misc mods for +5...
First attack is d20+26 target 31
Second attack is d20+21 target 31
Third attack is a disarm so I roll d20+8+3+5 or d20+16 target 36!
Fourth attack would be d20+11 target 36!
So my attack and CMBs go down but his defense went up! Sure there WILL be times the opposite is true, especially at lower levels, but then the third and fourth iterative attacks won't come into play anyway.
I think, more often, by the time you get your third and fourth attack you will the target number going up instead of down, with a lower modifier to hit in addition.
Beta does say you modify your CMB with spells, feats and such... so if the target has any buffs on him for strength or whatever then that target number goes up as well. Even Bless adds +1 to attack rolls! Bull's Strength adds +4 to STR which adds +2 to your STR Mod. So before these spells are added in, my target was 36, and now my target becomes 38! when Bull's Strength used to NOT effect defense.
*Note since Bless effects attack rolls, only an attacker gets to use it, a defender is not making an attack roll and does not get its benefit. Both would gain the benefit of Bull's Strength as it modifies the STR mod as well.
So yeah, we'll need to pay attention to what spells can and can't modify CMB as well!
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It certainly works that way for Trip attempts (and strangely enough, grapple, which isn't affected by iterative penalties), but NOt for disarm attempts. A disarm check is made using whatever attack bonus you have at the time, so if you use your last iterative attack, you WILL lose that disarm check, and then the opponent gets to try to disarm YOU...at his highest BAB.
So kids, when trying to disarm, always attempt it on your FIRST attack. And hey, if it succeeds, you can end your attack and use a move action to pick up the opponent's weapon. They don't threaten you anymore unless they have Improved Unarmed Strike.
I assume you were still talking about 3rd ed.
My point was that the new system is messed up. I'm not saying the old system wasn't. But with a few (and I do mean few) feats, I can easily disarm several times a round at huge bonuses, from range, and toss weapons 15 feet away from the victims.
Just to point out that this really does not work at all.
Maneuvers use attack rolls, so your iterative attacks go down -5 each time, and since your opponent defends with 15+CMB and NOT Touch AC (armor has NOTHING to do with maneuvers)it is quite likely your target number will go up even as your attack modifiers are going down! It is possible for your target number to go down but I think it unlikely- but every situation can have wild results!
Granted, against some beasts that have natural armor modifiers of +20 or +42 or some whacked out number, grappling will likely be a better option.
However, I HOPE Paizo realized that when making their Bestiary, otherwise Fighters will want to Grapple Ancient Dragons instead of attacking... MAYBE... oh face it, the Dragon wins no matter what! lol